Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Fran, a writer, unschooler, and consent-based education advocate about her education journey, which began in Italy. We talk about how her early interests in humanities and dream of becoming a writer led to her pursuing a career in journalism before she became a mother who decided to give unschooling a try. Fran shares the authors who informed her early thoughts on children’s liberation, and about Carol Black’s vision of turning schools into a meeting space that is powered by the expertise of members in the local community.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:09 – 00:00:04:18
Rée
Hi, I’m Ray.
00:00:04:20 – 00:00:28:02
Rée
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:28:04 – 00:00:53:04
Rée
I design curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, had not received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems.
00:00:53:10 – 00:01:15:19
Rée
To rethink what schools can be. What it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers, with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Fran, a writer and scholar and consent based education advocate, about her education journey, which began in Italy.
00:01:15:21 – 00:01:40:22
Rée
We talk about how her early interests in humanities and dream of becoming a writer led to her pursuing a career in journalism. Before she became a mother who decided to give unschooling a try. Fran shares the author’s who informed her early thoughts on children’s liberation, and about Carol Black’s vision of turning schools into a meeting space that is powered by the expertise of members in the local community.
00:01:41:00 – 00:01:49:05
Rée
Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:49:07 – 00:02:20:08
Fran
So I was what I would call, a good child and kind of, air quotes. In the sense that, like I, I did more or less what I was told to do, and I wasn’t parented necessarily in a very gentle way. You know, my parents were just kind of doing what was normal at the time, and probably doing a lot better than their own parents had done.
00:02:20:10 – 00:02:51:11
Fran
So I have a lot of empathy for that. But, you know, they weren’t gentle. I was a very sensitive child. Probably had some neurodivergent in that that was never kind of explored. And in terms of school, like, I was, I was just like, good. Like, the teachers loved me. I did well in school. I guess my brain worked in a way that made it easy for me to do well in school.
00:02:51:13 – 00:03:07:22
Fran
You know, so in that sense, I was lucky, yeah. So that’s, I guess that’s the kind of child I was. I was quite quiet, and shy. But yeah, I did. Well academically.
00:03:08:00 – 00:03:36:08
Rée
That’s really awesome. I mean, so when you said you had a little bit of unexplored, neuro divergence, I was like, wait a second. I had unexplored or. I mean, I had undiagnosed neuro divergence, too, but I feel like I really still say what he opposite direction. So I’m kind of curious, like, if you have insight now on what kind of neurodivergent that was that allowed you to do so well in school?
00:03:36:10 – 00:04:02:02
Fran
Yeah. Okay. So, I was diagnosed with epilepsy at age five. So I knew that everybody knew that. My parents knew that. But it was very much like taboo, to talk about it. So the doctors even told my parents, like, just don’t mention that. Like, don’t talk to anybody about it. My parents advised me not to talk to anybody about it because, you know, it’s it’s still something that is misunderstood.
00:04:02:04 – 00:04:26:22
Fran
So so that was that. So obviously that is a neurodivergent. So that was very much like we were aware of it. But I think there were other things on top of that. And, but I think as a, you know, because I was raised as a woman and also maybe for various other reasons, I became very good at masking.
00:04:27:00 – 00:04:56:00
Fran
But I did struggle. So while, like, externally, it didn’t look like I was struggling because I was actually quite good at, like, kind of observing and figuring out what I was supposed to be doing at any given time. I was quite, like, bookish. So, you know, in a school setting that takes you a long way. And I was generally quite good at just, like doing what the teachers told me to do and complying, basically.
00:04:56:02 – 00:05:04:23
Fran
But I think that was like a high level of masking involved that made it seem like it was easy for me, but actually it wasn’t.
00:05:05:00 – 00:05:28:00
Rée
Yeah. I keep hearing this time and time again that like a lot of people who looked like they were doing well internally, had a lot of struggle. I’m sorry, that was a challenge for you. I can definitely relate to that. I was wondering like, did you what did your education journey look like? Did you go to traditional schools or where do you leave most of your education?
00:05:28:02 – 00:05:57:07
Fran
So funnily enough, my first like, preschool was, like the nuns. So I grew up. I grew up in Italy, in Rome. And, you know, it was pretty like, normal to, like, send your child to, like, a school run by nuns. So my first, like, year of preschool was with the nuns. I have some really bizarre memories of that.
00:05:57:07 – 00:06:17:19
Fran
I’m not going to go into that, but, Okay, so that was what it was. But then I guess my parents kind of, like, veered off course a little bit because they decided to send me to, like, an international school. So basically I went to like a British international school from like age, I don’t know, 5 or 6.
00:06:17:21 – 00:06:23:19
Fran
And I was in the same school till the end of my schooling. Yeah.
00:06:23:21 – 00:06:27:07
Rée
Oh, wow. Okay, so that was still all in Italy.
00:06:27:09 – 00:06:28:18
Fran
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:28:19 – 00:06:56:13
Rée
Oh, okay. And do you remember, like, I know you said you weren’t good to like the details of being in a school run by nuns, but I’m curious, like, like, did you enjoy, both of those experiences or, like, how do you think it’s sort of, how do you think it’s either prepared or, like, set the stage for going to an international school?
00:06:56:13 – 00:07:02:18
Rée
And do you remember, like, comparing your experiences at all?
00:07:02:20 – 00:07:05:08
Fran
I don’t really remember that. I think I was too little.
00:07:05:08 – 00:07:06:05
Rée
Yeah.
00:07:06:07 – 00:07:28:23
Fran
You know, my sister was hanging out with the nuns. But, yeah, I just, And I think, I mean, I remember, I guess I must have at some point been thrown into a, setting. That was all in English and started to pick up English. But I have no memory of that or no memory of that being a struggle.
00:07:29:03 – 00:07:48:05
Fran
Probably because I was maybe I was younger than five. Maybe I was like, like four. And I went, to like, international school. So maybe at that age, you know, you’re not really you start to pick up the language really easily. And so I just kind of did the bilingual thing from then onwards.
00:07:48:07 – 00:08:09:14
Rée
Yeah. Because I was going to ask you about that, but, Yeah. Language. So I have a daughter and she’s, a little over two, and it’s amazing to me how quickly she picks up language. And I was just like, you know, I think when you’re that young, you’re just like the sponge. And because it’s part of your survival, it’s not really a struggle.
00:08:09:14 – 00:08:35:01
Rée
You just learn as you go. So thank you for clarifying that. I was going to ask you, like, how was it going to an international school? But, I was wondering what kind of subjects did you enjoy? Do you remember, like what? What you liked, what you disliked? And, how the classes were set up and if you, like, thrived.
00:08:35:03 – 00:08:58:08
Fran
Yeah. I mean, okay, I think it it kind of cut both ways in the sense, but, like, you know, a lot of people in the kind of, self-directed education world, say that school kills curiosity and all of that creativity and, like, intrinsic, like motivation to learn. And I think for some kids that is the case.
00:08:58:08 – 00:09:01:06
Fran
But that wasn’t really the case for me. Like, I actually.
00:09:01:07 – 00:09:02:14
Rée
Oh, okay.
00:09:02:16 – 00:09:28:20
Fran
I loved learning, I love learning from day one to when I graduated at 18. So like there was I mean, as time went on, I kind of was like, okay, I don’t really love this subject so much, and I prefer, you know, this other one. So I was more into, like, English history, and kind of the humanities more than like science or math.
00:09:28:22 – 00:09:51:18
Fran
So that I just tended towards that. I love to write. I love to think, you know, things like that, but, but I don’t feel like it kind of killed my, my love of learning. And I think maybe that’s partly because my learning was rewarded in the sense that I had, like, I was good at exams, I was good at writing essays.
00:09:51:18 – 00:10:18:05
Fran
And so, you know, you get good grades and then that’s like a positive feedback loop. And I can completely see how that could go downhill for somebody who was getting negative feedback and then is put off of trying. Right. And then it’s like, I’m not good at learning or, you know, but that wasn’t the case for me. Like, I, you know, I, I kind of I did.
00:10:18:05 – 00:10:38:12
Fran
Well, I, I’m not going to say I thrived as a person. I did well academically, but I don’t think it was necessarily like good for me as a person because I don’t think it really like helped me to figure out who I was, like my place in the world, how to even just like, exist as a human.
00:10:38:13 – 00:11:00:09
Fran
None of those things, you know, it was a very traditional British school, so there was none of the extra stuff that maybe they’re doing in public schools now, you know, socio emotional learning or like, none of that. It was very much like, just academics. So, and I was good at that, but also.
00:11:00:11 – 00:11:01:21
Rée
Yeah.
00:11:01:23 – 00:11:14:22
Fran
That, that part of my brain, you know, grew and I guess was being exercised, the, the, the whole other side of just being a human in the world was untouched. What? That was just. No.
00:11:15:02 – 00:11:16:01
Rée
Yeah.
00:11:16:03 – 00:11:20:05
Fran
No support for that. So. Yeah.
00:11:20:07 – 00:11:30:04
Rée
Yeah. And so that’s something I want to ask you about. Like, you know, I think somehow.
00:11:30:06 – 00:11:54:18
Rée
So from my understanding of growing when I was growing up, school was sort of meant to be like, you know, the stepping stone for how you were going to navigate your life after college. And so it was kind of like education in many ways for me. I felt like was grooming me to get into a college, which was then going to set me up for a career.
00:11:54:20 – 00:12:11:16
Rée
And so I was wondering, like, what kind of messaging did you receive from, like your caregivers or your teachers about what they thought you would do after school and what kind of careers or life they wished you had after school?
00:12:11:18 – 00:12:40:12
Fran
Yeah, I mean, I’m always like pushing back on this narrative, partly because I know we know some studies that like the biggest predictor of, you know, future well-being success is not academics and is not the university you went to. So we do know that. But also from my personal experience, because I, I was a relatively privileged child, I went to a private school.
00:12:40:12 – 00:13:09:18
Fran
I did very well. I got into a very good university. You did very well there. And then I left and I was like, what now? What? I was completely at a loss as to like how to operate in the world. I think that is part of maybe not recognizing, neurodivergent that existed. But also just because it doesn’t prepare you for the actual world.
00:13:09:18 – 00:13:41:07
Fran
Like nothing about my academic studies at university prepared me for, like, sitting in an office and, going, you know, being in a meeting and working with other people, and just all the stuff that is just, you know, it was assumed I was going to go on to do right. And so I feel like it was the kind of, you know, the whole narrative as I was growing up was like, you have so much potential, like, you’re going to do so well, like you have a bright future ahead of you.
00:13:41:07 – 00:14:10:16
Fran
And then I kind of like, like, left university and I was like, okay, where’s my bright future? And, like, the thing is, because I come, I have a lot of family support, because I’m a relatively privileged person in the world. I was fine, but, I don’t think I was fine because of my academic kind of achievements, you see what I’m saying?
00:14:10:18 – 00:14:28:20
Fran
So I think someone else who maybe had had all of that academic, had done well in all those ways that I did, but who had a lot less privilege in a lot of other ways at that point, they may have really struggled, and they may have not been able to get the support they needed. So, I mean, I don’t know if I answered your question.
00:14:28:20 – 00:14:33:05
Fran
I went a little bit off off topic, there.
00:14:33:07 – 00:14:52:23
Rée
No, no, I mean, those are all welcome. And I don’t yeah. I think they’re all sort of like, I’m, I’ve been in therapy for many, many years, and I think my therapist is always like because I always go off on tangent now connected, even though you don’t know how it might be connected, it’ll eventually, you know, we’ll eventually figure out how it’s connected later.
00:14:52:23 – 00:15:17:14
Rée
So I think all tangents are good. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think kind of related to what you were saying is I think like society expects, like such linearity. And I think we’re talking about like, neuro divergence and how, like some people, at least I know for myself, I’m not a linear thinker. And I’m like, more three dimensional.
00:15:17:14 – 00:15:30:16
Rée
So I like, talk things out and eventually I can linearize. Like, after I figured out what I’m thinking about. But, you know, it takes a while. So sorry. Sorry for that extra tangent.
00:15:30:18 – 00:15:33:17
Fran
No, that’s that’s a really good point, actually.
00:15:33:19 – 00:15:58:18
Rée
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, like you, you did mention because you have, you know, relatively speaking, a certain amount of privilege, you were fine because you were able to rely on some family support and things like that after college. But people who, you know, may not have had certain resources or connections like that, you know, might have really struggled.
00:15:58:18 – 00:16:40:01
Rée
And I think in some ways I’m also a relatively privileged person. And so I did have help around that area. But, you know, I couldn’t rely on the strength my academics because I wasn’t that strong there. And particularly being a creative person, it was challenging for me. And so I’m wondering like, how did you start? Sort of like, figuring out what you were going to do in the world and, you know, developing that like internal, I don’t know, foundation of what you wanted to do.
00:16:40:03 – 00:16:40:18
Rée
00:16:40:19 – 00:17:12:09
Fran
Yeah, that’s a big question. Yeah. So, I mean, I feel like I’m still figuring it out. But I think for me it was, and this is maybe not a very popular narrative, you know, in some circles, but like, it was having children, was kind of the beginning of it for me because it’s okay to an extent, it kind of legitimized my existence.
00:17:12:12 – 00:17:32:01
Fran
I know this sounds harsh to say it this way, but in that moment, that’s how I felt, you know, because I was so for many years, I was like, I had no idea what I wanted to be doing. I kept, like, going from one thing to the next, you know, not really committing to any one thing.
00:17:32:03 – 00:18:06:08
Fran
I think I started things and didn’t finish them. You know, it was like, just maybe like a decade or so of just like, feeling lost, not really knowing who I was. Right. And then when I had my children, it was like, well, now I’m a mother. So that became part of my identity. And I, you know, I have mixed feelings around that in the sense that like, of course, now I know that, like, I’m worth, you know, I’m worth while and worthy for being just me.
00:18:06:09 – 00:18:29:04
Fran
I don’t obviously need to give birth to another human and look after them in order to, like, feel good, right? But in that moment, that did help me. And it also kind of pushed me a little bit to like, be like, okay, you need to kind of figure things out now, you know, and, you have this other person that’s going to be looking up to you.
00:18:29:06 – 00:18:56:14
Fran
You know, it was just kind of, a little push for me to. Yeah, to get more support, maybe around areas that I had been kind of ignoring or like pushing to the side. Yeah. And it was just the beginning of this very long journey of. Yeah, kind of discovery and, like, learning to, like, accept myself.
00:18:56:16 – 00:18:57:06
Fran
Yeah.
00:18:57:08 – 00:19:25:17
Rée
Yeah. Oh my gosh. So, so relatable. So so relatable. And so I just wanted to say, you know, I feel for those, you know, years at least a decade of like, you know, searching for that purpose. And I know that you were, you know, previously a montessori guide. And I was wondering like, but you said that you kind of sort of started and stopped, like, what are what were some of those interests?
00:19:25:19 – 00:19:27:00
Rée
You know.
00:19:27:02 – 00:19:42:21
Fran
Yeah. That’s a good question. Okay. So, I thought I wanted to be a journalist, so I did a master’s in journalism. That’s actually how I met my husband. So I’m not. I don’t regret that.
00:19:42:23 – 00:20:08:00
Fran
He told me to say that. But, Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No. But then I realized, like, midway through my master’s, which I did actually finish. But midway through, I was like, actually, I don’t want to do this because I find journalism really confrontational and in a kind of, it felt like to be successful. I was kind of a reporter.
00:20:08:02 – 00:20:31:13
Fran
You have to be in people’s faces a lot, and that’s just not me. Like, I’m, I’m very I am actually a relatively confrontational person, but I like I don’t shy away from confrontation, but I don’t like, I just didn’t like that whole, like, push, like pushing, you know, calling people 55 times until they answer you. Do you know what I mean?
00:20:31:13 – 00:20:54:03
Fran
Like, you know, it’s really encouraged. Like there was something about that that was just not. Don’t go with my personal. Yeah. So anyway, so then I realized that. Anyway, I finished my degree anyway, and, then I was, I worked, we were in London until I worked at the BBC, as a researcher, so I was, I started off actually.
00:20:54:03 – 00:21:21:23
Fran
No, sorry. Before that, I was an archive researcher for, like, a time documentary company. Just an independent company. And that was just like, it was basically like a little, little sweatshop. So, no, I can say this now because I really don’t care. But like the the man who ran it basically hired, fresh graduates because he knew who could pay them, like, really little.
00:21:21:23 – 00:21:48:22
Fran
But he gave them really important jobs, like head off. I was literally like, head of the archive library or whatever. This is my first job. It’s just like we worked, like, all hours for very little money. But it was fine. It was a good experience. Then I left. I had a year, like, flailing about, my husband, we moved to Paris for a year because he got a job there, and I kind of moved with him.
00:21:49:00 – 00:22:18:00
Fran
That was an awful year. By the way. Just awful. Not because in Paris, Paris was fine, but situation. And then. And then I got the BBC job in London. And that was a, it was a nice job with like, normal hours and, you know, benefits and stuff. Yeah. This isn’t it. That’s great. And, and it was and I was there for like, maybe 4 or 5 years, and just moving around a little bit.
00:22:18:02 – 00:22:47:17
Fran
And it was mostly like, behind the scenes of research. So like, I was an alcohol researcher for a little bit, which means that you look up, clips, that are needed for some programs, you know, when they insert, like, footage in a documentary or whatever, and there’s like old footage, like there’s a person who’s, like, in charge of looking for that footage, that, that was me for some of, for some of the documentaries on some of the productions or whatever.
00:22:47:19 – 00:23:08:16
Fran
And. Yeah, so I kind of moved around in that, sphere for a little bit, and then. Oh, and then I, I did it. Oh, God. I did a yoga teacher just for. I don’t just love it because, like, it’s so long ago, I did a yoga teacher training course, and I was like, okay, yoga’s like now.
00:23:08:16 – 00:23:30:14
Fran
My life, and I left my job at the BBC and decided to become a yoga teacher. I mean, you know, it it is what it is like. Now, I have very specific ideas about yoga, and I would never go back. I was like a white woman and go and teach yoga. This just just me. It just wouldn’t feel right.
00:23:30:15 – 00:24:02:20
Fran
However, back then it was like, I don’t know, 15 years ago I, I didn’t know any of that. So I was just like, okay. Yeah, yoga. So I taught yoga for a bit. It was very pot time. I started studying as well. I started, studying kind of, developmental psychology, again, like this entire, I’m going to stop here, actually, because I it is just it’s just like, floating around, you know what I mean?
00:24:02:20 – 00:24:15:10
Fran
Like, I feel like this whole decade was just me being like, maybe I’ll do this. Oh, actually, it’s not my thing. Maybe I’ll do this. Oh, actually, it’s not my thing, you know, like. Yeah. That’s so.
00:24:15:10 – 00:24:17:19
Rée
Interesting. Yes. Go ahead.
00:24:17:21 – 00:24:29:09
Fran
No no no. Basically I have my children. Like shortly after I left my job and started being a yoga teacher. So that’s that was it? Yeah.
00:24:29:11 – 00:25:08:04
Rée
Well, I was wondering, so you were trying to figure things out. But, you know, you did the job at the BBC for quite a bit of time, 4 to 5 years. That’s, you know, yeah, that’s kind of amazing. And I mean, the way that you’re talking about these things, it kind of I can see sort of why when I read what you write, you do write like a journalist and but your research is amazing and you articulate yourself so well and honestly, you can make certain, topics feel so easy to read.
00:25:08:06 – 00:25:39:10
Rée
These are dense things and, you know, hard things that I would consider challenging to, to read. But but like just reading your writing, it’s so it I just breeze by and like, I just have to like, commend you for, you know, your ability to turn it into art. And something that’s so easily digestible. So, you know, I, I do want to give you credit for having I don’t know if some of that was like, your job and your training, and I’m sure that comes into play.
00:25:39:10 – 00:25:49:19
Rée
And also maybe lots of other things, but just wow, I like I can see how all of these sort of connect, at least it makes sense for me. It.
00:25:49:19 – 00:26:16:20
Fran
Makes sense for you. Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s great. I’m. I’m really glad it does. I mean, I think ultimately it does make sense to me, you know, but when I look at it in kind of a granular way, I’m just like, what was going, but also I should say that I’ve always wanted to be a writer. So that has been like my running kind of the kind of, in the, in the background thing since I was a, since I could write.
00:26:16:22 – 00:26:17:14
Rée
It’s you’re through.
00:26:17:19 – 00:26:46:05
Fran
You know, I would write stories and, then, you know, illustrate them or whatever, like, I’ve, I’ve always been a writer, but I’ve just I just never had the courage to put my writing out there until very recently, when, actually, it all started when I. So I was diagnosed with lymphoma, which is a form of cancer, in 2019.
00:26:46:06 – 00:27:18:19
Fran
And, it was fine. I was, I did chemotherapy, I went to all the treatment and everything, and, I’m fine now. But during my chemotherapy is when I started to. And I know this sounds like it sounds so cliche, but it was. Honestly, this is really how it was. You know, when you’re faced with, like, your own mortality, I think on your face and like, very real possibility that you’re not going to make it or that you only have a few months, like, you just don’t know.
00:27:18:19 – 00:27:49:04
Fran
Right? And so I just remember thinking, oh, so I’m just like, done what then? Like, I’ve, I’m, I’m 38. I was 38 and, I just kind of felt like I’d been waiting for my life to begin all of that time, that it hadn’t. And that, like, I was really faced with that, like, know the possibility that my life might end before it had really begun.
00:27:49:06 – 00:28:09:00
Fran
And so I think so that’s when I was like, hey, I’m gonna I’m gonna do it now. So I started a blog and I started writing about my experience of, living with, with cancer and going through cancer treatment as a mother. And, you know, nobody read the blog. It was just my friends reading it, basically.
00:28:09:00 – 00:28:35:21
Fran
But like, it was so soon, to. And I felt like in the writing that I did on the blog was the first time that I said something. It was the first time that I’d like actually put some things out there and been honest about some things, that I’ve kept inside, ever, and so I don’t know where I was going with this, but I think.
00:28:35:23 – 00:28:57:13
Fran
Oh, yeah, I was just saying that that’s what got me thinking, that actually I could write for other people to read. Yeah. That was the beginning of it. It was like. I mean, I don’t know why. I, you know, in some ways I think about this a lot because I don’t want to be like, oh, you know, everything happens for a reason.
00:28:57:13 – 00:29:23:06
Fran
And like, I got cancer because I had to learn this lesson. No, of course not. Like cancer sucks. Like nobody gets it for any reason in particular. And, you know, it’s all, you know, it’s not good. However, it was a push for me, you know, it was kind of a moment of, like, reckoning. Yeah.
00:29:23:08 – 00:29:57:08
Rée
Yeah. No, I mean, wow, those are some really challenging things. And of course, like, I don’t think it’s a cliche at all to, you know, get that message from life saying it. These things that you wanted to do, why aren’t you doing them? And so, yeah, I’m really glad you started writing because you write so well. And, you know, I’ve been skimming and reading like some of the articles that you’ve written on your own blog and also for other people, and for other outlets.
00:29:57:10 – 00:30:39:06
Rée
And, you know, you focus a lot on youth autonomy and self-directed education and, and so I was wondering, like, I know it’s been at least four years, since you started unschooling your children. And I was wondering, how did you make that leap, from talking about, you know, your own cancer journey, as it were, and going through that to talking about youth autonomy and self-directed education and being interested in unschooling and and things like that.
00:30:39:07 – 00:31:12:11
Fran
Okay. So I should say first, like I, when I had my daughter, I was reading, unschooling books at that point, so I, I was already kind of, like, interested, looking into unschooling, you know, way back when I. When she wasn’t even boarding school. And I the idea was, was to unspool from the get go, but that didn’t really happen.
00:31:12:13 – 00:31:32:16
Fran
Because of we moved a lot. And then I was ill. So the kids were in school at that point. So, you know, that life happened. That didn’t happen. But I did. We did set off trying to do that. So my daughter didn’t go into preschool until she was almost six. And, my son was three at that point.
00:31:32:16 – 00:31:58:23
Fran
So, yeah. So it was kind of a full start in a way. And then, you know, there was a little interim of like, schooling, which I don’t regret, actually, I think it was. Yeah, it was in a way now it was good for them to have that school experience because they were still remember that, you know, and so I feel like we can make more of an informed choice if they ever decide to go back to school.
00:31:59:01 – 00:32:04:07
Fran
But anyway, I’m glad I forgotten your question. So sorry.
00:32:04:09 – 00:32:30:23
Rée
Oh, my gosh, no problem. And anyway, thank you for clearing that up because I wanted to sort of ask you about, you know, how how you started being interested in unschooling, and I know it was before your daughter was even in the picture. But I was wondering, like, what led you to pursuing that research? And, you know, also curious.
00:32:30:23 – 00:32:57:04
Rée
Like what? What kind of books were you reading? Or like, any articles and talks that had inspired you? And, you know, that made you, want to give, you know, unschooling and try because you mentioned earlier that you were some someone who was successful in, like, you know, going to international school and following that. So I was kind of curious, like, how did you, you know.
00:32:57:04 – 00:32:57:12
Rée
Yeah, I.
00:32:57:12 – 00:33:23:23
Fran
Mean, I think do that. Okay. I was very disillusioned with the whole kind of like, you know, the way education, like, kind of grows into the world and actually, you know, utterly unprepared. So I think that my personal experience, like, set me up to be, like, questioning, like, is this really the way, you know, and also, my husband didn’t have the positive, experience in school either.
00:33:23:23 – 00:33:51:21
Fran
So he was like, you know, it was not a loss for him. Like he was like, sure. Like, why not, why not try something different? I think the first thing I learned about home education was, when we were living in London, and I just picked up the paper and there was just like, an article that someone, a home educating Dad, I think, had written about, like, why it wasn’t so tough, actually, is going to make complete sense to me.
00:33:51:23 – 00:34:24:07
Fran
You know, it was very basic stuff like, actually like, okay, you know, school isn’t like a kind of necessarily the best environment to, like, socialize with other people. Like children have an intrinsic desire to learn, like we don’t need to, ignite them with curiosity or whatever, like they have the curiosity within them. And so it was like, you know, the very basic kind of arguments that people make for home education, right, that I’d never had.
00:34:24:09 – 00:35:02:14
Fran
And I was like, oh, yeah, I mean, this just makes complete sense. And so that got me I think you quoted John Holt in his article. And so then I went and I read about all of his books, and then from there I read, other, kind of unspool, unschooling, writers, which were predominantly women, like Pamela Recchia and like Sandra Dodds that are the the kind of more radical unschooling, original radical unschooling people, I guess, who were doing it in the US.
00:35:02:16 – 00:35:25:20
Fran
But I didn’t catch on to, say people like Akeelah searches until later, much later, because also it wasn’t. I mean, the internet existed, but like, there was no social media at the time, so it was really hard to actually get information. There was a lot of Facebook groups, so I was on a lot of those, but it’s a bit hard to mix with Facebook, I think.
00:35:25:20 – 00:35:47:13
Fran
So, yeah. So I think so. That was the beginning. And then we had a little kind of, you know, interlude when my kids were in school and, and I was like, okay, well, maybe this is going to work out. We travel a lot with my husband’s job. And so it just felt like easier to send them to school at that point.
00:35:47:13 – 00:36:15:23
Fran
And then, after I got sick and then recovered and started kind of reevaluating my entire life and, also Covid hit that next year. Oh, yeah. So was it just a combination of things? And I was like, I’ve always wanted to. It had never left me like I’d always wanted to. On school. And so it was like, this is kind of the moment to do it.
00:36:16:01 – 00:36:38:14
Fran
Because, the children were doing online learning with their school. They were both really hated, especially my son, who was like 4 or 5, you know, just online learning just does not plug. And so I and I had I had a really great job at the time, which I enjoyed, which was as a montessori guide.
00:36:38:16 – 00:37:08:13
Fran
So I had to leave that job in order to have school. So that was, I guess, my, you know, compromise. Which is fine. But, yeah. So that’s, that’s when we kind of launched into it. I mean, I have to say, like, this is not I don’t go around, like, necessarily preaching about, like, the joys or like the, you know, amazingness of unschooling and telling everybody that they should do it.
00:37:08:13 – 00:37:35:09
Fran
Because I really don’t think that ultimately, I don’t think that just removing our children, some, public system is going to be the way, and, you know, the way to, systemic change, if we want to do it individually for our own reasons, I think we should be free to. But I wouldn’t go around being like, yes, everybody take your children at school.
00:37:35:10 – 00:37:59:14
Fran
Like, I just don’t think it’s viable. It’s not accessible. I’m very aware of the fact that, I had a lot of support at the time that I did it. I had, by chance, two neighbors who homeschool. So we were just, you know, in touch daily. The kids could play with each other daily. And I had a lot of support from them.
00:37:59:16 – 00:38:28:22
Fran
I joined social media at that point. So I think you get a lot of online support there, too. I started my account. That’s when I started my account. I think it was like 20, 20, 20. Yeah. So yeah, you know, it worked out for us, but I just don’t think that, like, I yeah, I just don’t see homeschooling as necessarily like, the way forward, if you see what I’m saying.
00:38:29:00 – 00:39:01:00
Rée
Yeah. And I would love to chat with you about that. A little bit more. I before we go there, I wanted to sort of ask you, you know, about this piece. So I was an educator, for about 15 years in various classrooms are old, and, I think, you know, this idea of, like, adult based control and hierarchy, is, like, really big in all of the spaces that I taught.
00:39:01:02 – 00:39:42:07
Rée
And, you know, maybe more strongly in South Korea. But it wasn’t until I started my podcast, that I realized, like, how much of my own beliefs or my own, like, methods about how students, should learn, you know, like, took so much power away from them. And, I know, like, you grew up in, Italy, and you lived between various countries, including Thailand and and so, you know, I was wondering, like, what has been your observation?
00:39:42:09 – 00:40:02:21
Rée
About how people in all of these places approach that power dynamic between, young people and adults? Either at home, in society or in school settings. So I really kind of am curious about, like, your observations around that power dynamic and all of the places that you’ve lived.
00:40:02:23 – 00:40:24:05
Fran
Yeah, I mean, this is one of the things I talk about most, right? How pervasive this kind of, ageism or adult ism is. Yeah. Just everywhere. And, I mean, I can’t really speak for Thailand. I’ve only lived here two years, and I. I don’t feel I really understand the system, the system or the culture like enough to speak to that.
00:40:24:05 – 00:41:06:02
Fran
But, I can definitely speak for, like, you know, Italy and probably most Western countries, I would say, because it’s actually very similar. And I think like the, the ways that we parent and educate in a lot of these countries are essentially like rooted in, like the dehumanization of children. And I think when, when these big things, like how we raise our children, how we treat children in society, how we view them and how we educate them are rooted in a sense of they are not fully human.
00:41:06:04 – 00:41:34:00
Fran
Like, you’re never going to get a good result that like, it’s never going to be your practices are never going to be humane and respectful. Because you essentially think it’s okay for adults to exert their power over children, right? In ways that would absolutely be frowned upon if you were doing the same thing to another group of people.
00:41:34:01 – 00:41:51:23
Fran
Not to say that it doesn’t happen to other groups of people. Of course it does. But I think in many Western countries we’ve come to the understanding that actually it’s not okay to treat a group or a group of people who has been historically marginalized. Take women, for example, in certain ways. And so people still do it.
00:41:52:00 – 00:42:18:04
Fran
But we have a general kind of consensus that it’s not okay, but we haven’t really reached that consensus with regard to children. And I think it’s because we fundamentally don’t even see children as a group of human people and like a coherent group of people. Do you know what I mean? We just, we just they they’re not part of our calculation.
00:42:18:06 – 00:42:56:16
Fran
Of of humans generally, you know, a lot of the time they’re just seen as kind of a nuisance, and just, you know, little us, not quite adults who need to be told what to do. And, and I don’t think we’ve really reckoned with, the kind of assumption, the assumptions that we make as adults of, like, the ways that, like, we think we know best and therefore it’s okay to impose whatever we think is best on our children via any means.
00:42:56:16 – 00:42:58:19
Fran
Pretty much.
00:42:58:21 – 00:43:31:23
Rée
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I think you wrote in one of your articles, you know, I think I’ve already mentioned maybe enough, that I really do love your writing. And there’s this one piece, that you wrote and I’m going to quote you here, or I mean, you, so one of the articles on your blog, you talk about how schooling is, you know, the biggest influence of keeping those, like, oppressive, systems intact.
00:43:32:00 – 00:43:55:18
Rée
And, you quote, a salt shaker and you said, no one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them. Nobody is going to teach you your true history, teach you your true heroes. If they know that that knowledge will help you, set you free. And I feel like right now, like free education for all is run by the government.
00:43:55:20 – 00:44:19:11
Rée
Or some religious organizations like we talked about earlier. And, because I don’t think their priorities are going to change. I was, you know, and you were talking about how, like, you don’t think that systemically it’s a good idea to like. And you also said you don’t go around preaching to people that people should take them out of schools and on school.
00:44:19:13 – 00:44:52:12
Rée
And so, you know, how do you think, we can sort of resolve that tension between, like taking, you know, being oppressive towards our young people, but at a systemic level, like how can we truly offer that, like, true, liberatory, I guess education, that can be as accessible and free as you know, the public schools.
00:44:52:14 – 00:45:39:13
Fran
Yeah. I mean, that’s a really good question. I think it’s important to recognize when you, you touched upon it, which, to recognize that, like, our education system was essentially made by the the dominant group of people in society. So, like white cis males, essentially. So it was created by them. And as such, it there is a narrative that runs through it which is, you know, a Western patriarchal, colonial capitalist narratives and like, so I think, I think that’s important to recognize.
00:45:39:15 – 00:46:15:20
Fran
At the same time, I don’t want to, like, I’m not I’m not a big fan of, like, being anti-government because I because fundamentally, the government is made by us, the people. And I think we do need one, at least I believe we do. And, and I think that there is a place for publicly funded education, because that is really the only way that, education and childcare is going to be accessible.
00:46:16:00 – 00:46:48:04
Fran
So people who can’t take their children at school. Right? So. Right. So I don’t want to make like the government out to be like the enemy. I think that we I think that I don’t I feel a little uncomfortable when like homeschoolers are also anti-government because especially if somebody that I grew up in, in Italy where, the university is free, so you can go to college for free and get a decent college education.
00:46:48:05 – 00:47:15:07
Fran
I’m sure there are private colleges, too, but they’re not anywhere near as expensive as they are in the US. All of schooling obviously is free. Healthcare is absolutely free. You know, like, these are basic human right. And they might not be perfect, but they’re free. So I just feel like and they are provided by our government.
00:47:15:07 – 00:47:36:03
Fran
And so our government is a bunch of crooks and they’re completely corrupt. They’re really awful at the moment by the way. But, but they have been corrupt since the beginning. There has never been a government where my family and, you know, where we’ve been like, oh, this is so great. Now we have the person that we love, you know, like at the head of the country.
00:47:36:03 – 00:48:07:14
Fran
Never. That has never happened. However, there are some like main things that remain publicly funded and that remain kind of a mainstay of like society, which is like taking care of like the elderly, like pensions, like health care, you know, education, things like that. So, the reason I’m saying this, I think, is because I worry a little bit about the whole like, you know, anti-government thing because, you know what?
00:48:07:17 – 00:48:34:01
Fran
What really happens when we when we kind of blame the blame the public sector for everything is that, the people who suffer are the the people who are more marginalized, the poorest people, in society, in the end, you know, the people who are, like, relying on, like, free schooling and who would like to have free health care, you know, other like that.
00:48:34:01 – 00:49:09:16
Fran
And so I just, you know, so when I, when I talk about self-directed education, I really like I don’t have all the answers, obviously, because I, there are people who have been in this field way more than I have, who have not so much experience. And, and I listen to them a lot, you know, but I do also think that, that it needs to that if we, we are to bring self-directed education, like, to a wider, and like, liberatory practices, like you, like you said in your question.
00:49:09:16 – 00:49:37:18
Fran
I’m just going back to your question now, like two more people, I think we do need to find a way for them to be publicly. Yeah. And yes, that might dilute the, yeah, kind of message a little bit. Oh. We can have a system like, I know that a lot of us states, for example, like Maine, where we I’m not really from there, but let’s just say, well, from there, my house, my husband, we have a house that’s a that’s our home.
00:49:37:19 – 00:50:04:01
Fran
Us. Has, has like a relatively interesting, like, education system in the sense that like, you can. Because there’s so few, because it’s so rural. The population is small, and, there are lots of towns that don’t have a school or don’t have a high school, like we might have an elementary school, but not a high school or whatever.
00:50:04:03 – 00:50:24:23
Fran
And so Maine will essentially pay for your child to go to, if your town doesn’t have a high school, they will pay for your child to go to, like any high school officials, including private high schools. And in and I may be wrong here because I may not know all of the exact details. So forgive me if this is just, like, wrong.
00:50:24:23 – 00:50:52:06
Fran
And then you get messages being like I was talking about. But as far as I understand, I think that, you can start a school in Maine and get government funding, and the criteria for what your school looks like is fairly flexible. So I think having a system that is not necessarily run by the government, not where all schools are run by the government, but where the government provides funding to schools.
00:50:52:06 – 00:51:17:09
Fran
And then people can set up a self-directed learning center. And it can be, you know, at least partially funded by the government, like I think that could work. Like it could work. It’s not an utter impossibility. Let’s just put it that way. We’re nowhere near that anywhere in the world. But, you know.
00:51:17:11 – 00:51:45:02
Rée
Yeah. Well, I mean, what I’m hearing and I think I’m going to have to think this out loud, and see if it even makes sense. But I feel like on one hand, it’s like, you know, I mean, obviously there’s a lot of gray area, but if we’re short term with, like, a black on one end and a white on the other, there’s, you know, there’s this idea of like, okay, here’s,
00:51:45:04 – 00:52:07:01
Rée
Standardized curriculum organized by the government for all where there’s absolutely no freedom or liberation. And we’re going to control everything because children are at the bottom of the hierarchy, and we need to get them to go into the economy as soon as they graduate. So we’re going to do whatever we think we can do to get them to get there.
00:52:07:01 – 00:52:47:15
Rée
So it’s like, so that’s one end of the spectrum. And then I think on the other, it’s like, people who have some sort of privilege and additional resources and, connections and, you know, maybe certain more freer parts of the world, like in Maine or, you know, wherever they have more, there’s more independent, choice. And time, that and attention we can give young people to like, explore and, you know, take that constructivist like approach of just watching and, and, you know, complimenting or supplementing what they need.
00:52:47:17 – 00:53:27:02
Rée
And so, you know, it’s like one is factory like mass produced cookies. And the other one is like, you know, individually baked and like, decorated and like, you know, and so I like how, like, I think your, your vision of what I’ve been hearing is sort of, well, we don’t want both of these options to be eliminated because if you don’t have a lot of that time and attention and resources, having that free, option is still better than not having anything.
00:53:27:04 – 00:53:47:17
Rée
And so how do we get closer to, to this side of the spectrum for people who may not have those resources in time? Or how do we bring this part of the spectrum to this end of the spectrum? I don’t know if this question makes sense. So it’s like, how do we. Yeah, great.
00:53:47:22 – 00:54:22:09
Fran
Yeah. Yeah, it actually does I so I don’t really have an answer for that. Okay. But Carol black has a really great Ted talk. She has been writing and, researching around, unschooling, self-directed education, childhood for decades. She has a great TedTalk, but you can just find, you know, just Google and it’s basically a vision for, transforming public schools.
00:54:22:11 – 00:54:55:12
Fran
So, essentially taking the building, taking the facilities, but completely transforming them. Obviously, you’d need a significant amount of political will behind this. So this is just a vision at the moment. However, it’s a really interesting talk. You know, she talks about like you take you take all the teachers out, and you, you empty, you empty the school, and you use the building, and then the building becomes a meeting place.
00:54:55:18 – 00:55:21:12
Fran
So it becomes a place where adults from the community and young people from the community, everybody can meet, and they can have areas to hang out to play. They can have, they can learn from maybe older members of the community. For example, if says in your small I think this would work best honestly in a small community because I can I can completely see this working.
00:55:21:12 – 00:55:56:00
Fran
And for example, the town we live in, a thing you know, you might have like, a carpenter, but like, we have a carpenter that lives, lives next door to us. So, like, they might be willing to go to the school once a week and like, run a carpentry workshop or, I don’t know, like, the children might get together and, start a project and then maybe find local adults who can, like, help them in that project, like, okay, I’m not giving, I’m not giving her to, justice because I talk is really good, and I’m kind of butchering it right now.
00:55:56:00 – 00:56:40:00
Fran
But if you go and listen to it, it’s a really convincing vision of how you could, with really, less expense, and not that many logistics and possibly even less kind of just taco fanfare than, like, school already has. You could, revolutionize public schooling. This feels super, like, appealing to me. Like, I would love to see that, the only place where I’m like, I don’t know if this would ever work is that I just don’t think we have enough people behind this idea.
00:56:40:02 – 00:57:16:17
Fran
I just don’t I think we need to work more on changing people’s minds and changing people’s mindsets around what education is around how children learn, essentially, around the fact that actually children, are not empty, receptive polls that like teachers pour learning into, but they are engaged in their own learning, even when they’re sitting in a classroom and they’re being lectured by a teacher, what they’re learning is being co-created by them.
00:57:16:19 – 00:57:38:23
Fran
So like no matter where you put a child, they won’t necessarily learn the things that you’re telling them. Like, you might be teaching them a thing. They might be learning an entirely different thing. Yeah, because the learning has to be mediated through them. And so I don’t think that we as a society, prepared to hear that.
00:57:39:01 – 00:58:05:01
Fran
Like, I think we still believe that when I tell my child, like, I don’t know, you know, this, this is wrong and therefore you must do it this way. They are receiving that exactly in that manner and that then they will do it that way going forward. And that’s just not the case. And anyone who’s been a part knows that that is just not how children learn.
00:58:05:03 – 00:58:22:21
Fran
So I think I love Carol Black’s vision and I but I think we need, like, massive, societal mindset shifts in order to, like, get to a place where we are not panicked about things. My child learning will they be successful in life?
00:58:23:01 – 00:58:25:05
Rée
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:25:07 – 00:58:34:12
Fran
And I think that requires also a massive divestment from like a lot of the systems that are keeping us in here. You know.
00:58:34:12 – 00:59:00:07
Rée
Yeah, absolutely. And like the future is so uncertain. And so, you know, from what I’m gleaning from this vision that you shared, yeah, I’m definitely going to go listen to that TEDx talk. And I’m kind of curious because I know that you’re interested in, like, early childhood education. And I think I was reading that you, you know, kind of want to go back to school and maybe do some writing about this.
00:59:00:07 – 00:59:25:06
Rée
And I was wondering like, you know, there was a guest on my podcast, in season one, Lizette, and she was talking about how when she got her master’s in education, you know, she got it. And then she became a micro school founder, and she was like, I had to unlearn all of these things that I had learned from how we educate our young.
00:59:25:06 – 00:59:58:10
Rée
And so I find it really interesting that, you know, you’ve been in unschooling for a long time, and you have these very like, beautiful visions of what education can be. And then I heard you might be going back to school. And so I was like, why? Why would you be doing this? But you know, I, you know, I think you have your own ideas and I think you do want to like, change minds and, and so kind of wanted to ask you, like, why are you doing this?
00:59:58:12 – 01:00:26:09
Fran
Yeah. It’s a perfectly legitimate question. I mean, I ask myself a lot as well. So I’m actually halfway through a master’s in early childhood education right now. So I’m doing it on a flexible basis, which means it’s going to take me like 4 or 5 years to finish. So the reason I went back is because I want to do academic research on self-directed education and consent based education.
01:00:26:09 – 01:00:47:21
Fran
So that is like my ultimate goal. So that’s a there’s a dissertation at the end of my master’s. I’m hoping to do it on something related to that. And then maybe go on to further study. I don’t know, we will we will see. So that was kind of my I feel like that I don’t feel like I know that there is not enough.
01:00:47:21 – 01:00:48:05
Rée
Yeah.
01:00:48:06 – 01:01:25:12
Fran
For sure. Such academic research, on how children learn outside of school, how children learn in a self-directed manner. And so I’m in a position where I can do that. And so I, I want to contribute to that. And I think more and more, people are joining, because I’m part of a little research group of others who are also doing research around self-directed education and lots of different ways, some of them to do with, you know, divergence and some of them to, you know, in other fields.
01:01:25:17 – 01:01:53:10
Fran
And it’s so interesting. It’s definitely a growing field. And I think in order to convince people, you need to have the research, like, I don’t need research to be convinced personally because I think because part of me is also like universities are like, completely complicit in a lot of, the systems that, you know, we speak, speak against or speak about divesting from.
01:01:53:10 – 01:02:19:08
Fran
So I understand the irony of like trying to do research on divesting from these systems while also being in one of, in an institution that is, like, highly supportive of them. So it is you know, there is an irony that but I think the fact is that, that having research to back things up is one way to convince people.
01:02:19:08 – 01:02:40:22
Fran
It’s not the only way like, but it is one way to convince. Yes, people who are in positions of power, for example, and to potentially sway like policy. So it’s a, it’s a long game, you know, like, I don’t think we’re going to see any of these things that we’ve been speaking about in, in our lifetimes.
01:02:40:22 – 01:02:44:19
Fran
But you know, what kind of in it for the, for the long.
01:02:44:19 – 01:03:06:04
Rée
Term. Absolutely. And I know that’s part of like what makes me want to continue this podcast long term is because it takes a long time to create systemic change. And I so totally agree with you that the way to do that with people in positions of power is to lead with the research and the facts and the statistics.
01:03:06:06 – 01:03:38:08
Rée
So, you know, thank you for using your extra time and your emotional space and all of that to continue, making that vision a reality. But, you know, this was such a great conversation. I really appreciated SPU. I feel like there are so many avenues I could have gone down. And just and so curious about all the, like, specific details of what you do daily and, you know, all of those things.
01:03:38:08 – 01:03:53:14
Rée
But I know that you have your own community. And so if anybody listening, you know, is interested, definitely go check her out. If you want to share where people can find you and what you’re working on.
01:03:53:16 – 01:04:20:09
Fran
Yeah. So, so, yeah. So I have some of my main places, I guess, my Instagram account, which is at Big Mothering and, the place I spend the most time in is Substack, which is like a platform for writers. And you will find me at, life unschooled. That’s the name of my kind of, a blog or publication on Substack.
01:04:20:11 – 01:04:41:00
Fran
So it’s, it’s a lifelong sport. Substack.com, I believe, was the actual Laura. I did want to add one just one thing that because I got me thinking as I was talking about, like, wider systemic change, like, I feel like we often I’m in conversation with, with a lot of people, around how do we do this?
01:04:41:02 – 01:05:05:19
Fran
And I think a lot of the time we think, that everything has to crumble so that we can rebuild, right? And I mean, maybe to an extent that’s true. But I also think that, like, we can we can build parallel, networks and parallel communities while everything else is also going on. So I do have a lot of hope like that in my lifetime.
01:05:05:19 – 01:05:29:19
Fran
Like, I’ll be able to build, support systems in my own community for, young people. And so all people, just like, little by little, just by getting together with other people and, and organizing. So I don’t want to like, because I feel like it makes us feel the weight to be like everything we have to.
01:05:29:20 – 01:05:44:17
Fran
There has to be a revolution. Everything has to like, you know, fall apart or whatever. And like, maybe it will at some point. But, but and I’m not saying, you know, that’s not, that’s not aim for that or whatever. But I also think that we can.
01:05:44:21 – 01:05:45:10
Rée
We can’t do.
01:05:45:10 – 01:05:51:11
Fran
Things now. There are things we can do now. Yeah.
01:05:51:13 – 01:06:00:10
Rée
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.