Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Sonia, an educator, podcaster, and career coach—about her earliest memories of growing up as the youngest daughter of immigrant parents, to becoming an educator and advocate for defining what success looks like for the next generation. We talk about the mentors in her life who saw great potential in her at an early age, and how those experiences ultimately became the emotional foundations of helping students meet their own potential. We also discuss what financial success looks like, including what it doesn’t look like, and why we need to develop the next generation’s interpersonal skills if they really want to make in the future.
Here’s our edited conversation.
Auto-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:15 – 00:00:27:22
Speaker 1
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:28:00 – 00:00:53:17
Speaker 1
I design curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, had not received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems.
00:00:53:19 – 00:01:20:16
Speaker 1
To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers, with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Sonya, an educator, podcaster, and career coach, about her earliest memories of growing up as the youngest daughter of immigrant parents to becoming an educator and advocate for defining what success looks like for the next generation.
00:01:20:18 – 00:01:47:02
Speaker 1
We talk about the mentors in her life and saw great potential in her at an early age, and how those experiences ultimately became the emotional foundations for her to help students meet their potential. We also discuss what financial success looks like, including what it doesn’t look like and why we need to develop the next generation’s interpersonal skills if they really want to make it in the future.
00:01:47:04 – 00:01:52:16
Speaker 1
Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:52:18 – 00:02:13:10
Speaker 2
Oh my goodness. Okay, that is a big question. I’ll tell you why. I can tell you what I experience or how I feel as a child. And then I can share with you what I discovered as an adult about my personality. But as a child, yeah, I was a people pleaser. And, you made good grades.
00:02:13:12 – 00:02:33:13
Speaker 2
I, I just I was a good kid, right? The one who always raised her hand in class and, pretty well behaved. Studied on my own. So my parents were the first to come to the United States. So they did not speak English. And so I was very independent. I just knew I had to do a good job, and that’s what I did.
00:02:33:19 – 00:03:05:00
Speaker 2
Teachers really liked me. And and. Yeah. So that’s how I was. It wasn’t until I became an adult that I really started. And and when I got more involved in mental health and psychology, I started looking back at my past. And this was because, I was an adult and I left a job after being only in there three weeks because of separation anxiety.
00:03:05:02 – 00:03:24:10
Speaker 2
And I had to go for a training for three weeks, and I did it. Cried as an adult. I was married even already at that age. And, and I cried and I cried and I just said I couldn’t do it. And I came back home knowing that this job would consist of more traveling. And I was like, not going to do it.
00:03:24:12 – 00:03:48:00
Speaker 2
Okay. That moment in time was very specific in my mind because then I thought, you know what, I’m going to go into education. I’m going to be a teacher, I’m going to be local, I’m going to be in a safe spot. And, and I did that. Well, the funny thing is, a year later, I was asked to go on, on a continuing education.
00:03:48:02 – 00:04:17:04
Speaker 2
Camp that they had or a class that was out of the out of the city, and I had to travel. And that’s when I started thinking, what’s happening here? Why am I having these feelings of separation anxiety? And I had to backtrack and I oh my gosh, this is so funny. But I saw the pattern, at a very young age, I was gifted and I was, moved from regular ed class to gifted.
00:04:17:06 – 00:04:47:16
Speaker 2
And now I know that gifted children tend to have more, social emotional need requirements. Right? And so what happened was that I was asked to go to GTE class, and I got moved, and I cried my way out. Now, now, I know now that, if my parents knew better and if the system did their job, they would have found the resources to equip me to stay in the class.
00:04:47:16 – 00:05:13:23
Speaker 2
Right? And they didn’t, because of course, I cried my way out and my mom obviously just took me out. That happened, several times in my life. In other in other aspects. The other one related to education was when I had, when I had started the well had been accepted into the R.N. program for registered nurse, and the anxiety kicked in a week before class started.
00:05:14:00 – 00:05:33:04
Speaker 2
And I was like, I can’t do this, I can’t do this. And my dad is the most amazing human being. You know, have he has passed away now 11 going 11 years. But he loved me so much that for him it was like, it’s okay, don’t worry. You don’t have to go pick another pathway, pick another career family.
00:05:33:06 – 00:05:56:05
Speaker 2
And so that was a way for him protecting me. Now I share all of this to say that now I know that when we don’t face the fear, the anxiety gets bigger, the fear gets bigger. And so from a very young age, I had all of these, all of these signs that were there, but nobody picked them up.
00:05:56:07 – 00:06:16:05
Speaker 2
All they did was just protect me and say, it’s okay, there’s a way out. You don’t have to do it. And what happened was the inside was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So, when I became an educator, I had been a lot more involved in mental health and everything, and I developed the skills and the tools to face my fears.
00:06:16:07 – 00:06:45:08
Speaker 2
And then I did. I went out on on the trip with all of my colleague teachers, and I was like, wow, I am finally, you know, doing what I should have been given while I was a young kid. Now, as a parent, I’m very observant for those traits in my children. And when I see a little bit of anxiety, which one of them tends to have more than the other, I’m quickly to assist and equip and find the resources for them, even within the school system.
00:06:45:10 – 00:07:02:17
Speaker 2
That’s the thing. The resources are there in our education system, they’re actually really good resources. The problem is we have to know where they’re at, or people have to be able to identify us, to give us assistance. So that to me in a nutshell, that’s how I was, growing up.
00:07:02:18 – 00:07:26:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Oh my gosh, thank you for sharing. I can kind of relate to this anxiety piece. And like not recognizing that it was anxiety until a lot later in my life. And, you know, your, your sort of like, those milestones on that journey are also relatable. Like, you know, the anxiety getting bigger for even bigger opportunities.
00:07:26:20 – 00:07:49:03
Speaker 1
And, yeah, you’re right. Like, unless you face them and identify them and have somebody help you through them like it’s the pattern is just going to keep repeating. And so, you know, you mentioned your father in here and how he was so supportive of you and he was trying to protect you and those kinds of things.
00:07:49:05 – 00:08:00:16
Speaker 1
And so I’m kind of wondering, like, what were your caregivers definition of success? What kind of expectations did they have of you? You know, like, yeah.
00:08:00:18 – 00:08:27:15
Speaker 2
Great question. I had both both spectrums with my mom and my dad. So with my mom, well, let me back up with my dad. My dad, love me for who I was exactly as I was. He wasn’t he. He wasn’t there to change me. He wasn’t there to just. He was just there to support me in whatever I wanted.
00:08:27:17 – 00:08:46:07
Speaker 2
His definition of success is do what you love. That was his definition of success, which I hope later we can get into. Why I do, what I do as a career, because that has a lot to do with it. But that was that was for him. Success is do something that fulfills you, that you love, that you enjoy.
00:08:46:09 – 00:09:18:03
Speaker 2
My mom, her definition of success was very different. Her definition of success was obviously going to college. And getting yourself, a job opportunity, professional career, professional job opportunity within a big company, corporate America. Right. And be there for years, years, years until you retire. That was her definition of success. And, you know, I, I, I was like my dad.
00:09:18:03 – 00:09:41:04
Speaker 2
My dad was always doing stuff that he loved. And I’ve had the blessing of being able to do that. But it was sometimes against my mom’s will because, you know, she wanted, you know, she wanted the the name and the title and she wanted me to, you know, have a retirement package ready for me. And staying in the same company.
00:09:41:06 – 00:10:10:08
Speaker 2
I actually stayed home with my children for three years, and during that time frame, I could feel the tenseness of my mom because for her, that was not success. Like, you’re staying at home, you have you have a degree, you have a career, and you’re giving it up for being at home. And she never understood what I know now that if you continue to work on your transferable skills, no matter what job opportunity you have, you are still building yourself up.
00:10:10:08 – 00:10:33:17
Speaker 2
You’re still in a growth mindset. And I always told her the opportunities will be there when I’m ready and I have proved her wrong. So, you know, prove I’ve proved my point that, yeah, the opportunities will be there if we continue to, evolve, grow and, and, you know, build up those skills and whatever it is that, that we’re doing.
00:10:33:19 – 00:11:03:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. That’s incredible. You know, I often hear that it’s like the father who has a lot of those expectations around, like, prestige and like, name brand things and degrees and things like that because they’re sort of, you know, focused on security, I think, in many ways. And then I guess the moms are more of, hey, let’s do something that brings you joy, that brings you comfort, and things like that.
00:11:03:10 – 00:11:28:14
Speaker 1
I often hear that, but and so when you say that it was the opposite here, I’m thinking, oh, that’s really interesting. And I’m wondering, like, if you knew, why your father kind of gave you that space and, the room to explore what you enjoyed. And if you knew why your mother had that sort of. I don’t know if I would call it fear.
00:11:28:16 – 00:11:37:03
Speaker 1
But that’s the first word that comes up. Or that anxiety around, what what she wanted your success to look like.
00:11:37:07 – 00:12:08:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, I do actually, because I’ve done a lot of, you know, self-reflection and personal reflection. I’ve asked a lot of questions to, my dad was an entrepreneur, so he always had that spirit of freedom, of entrepreneurship, of dreaming and and being his own boss, like he always had that in him. My mom, on the other hand, she was going to nursing school when, you know, she decided that she was going to come here to the United States.
00:12:08:12 – 00:12:36:19
Speaker 2
And so she never fulfilled that dream of finishing her college degree and being a professional. So I think it’s, you know, she had me and or will beat both me and my sister, but she had me and it was like, this is my opportunity to meet my own goals, you know? And I think that’s what it was. It was also my mom comes from a family where they worry about what the others think of each other.
00:12:36:19 – 00:13:10:19
Speaker 2
So like, she’s a family of nine. So she worries about what the other siblings think about her and about what success means for them. And so I think that’s that’s where it came from. So from unfulfilled trends of hers, but then also from the pressure of her own family of, of what their definition of success is, which is interesting because again, now what I do as a career coach and working with college students, you know, I actually ask them what success means to them because it could definitely be different than their past.
00:13:10:19 – 00:13:34:11
Speaker 2
And then I also ask the parents, what is success for them? And kind of, you know, help them, help them have that conversation to discuss what is success? What does that look like for you right now? Because I always also say there are seasons of life. I cannot tell you that. What I feel valuable right now, or my definition of success right now will be the same even in five years.
00:13:34:13 – 00:13:37:11
Speaker 2
And so, yeah.
00:13:37:13 – 00:13:50:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s that’s a really, really great reflection. Do you know if, this do you think that your mother also extended those unfulfilled dreams onto your sister? And your father? Yeah.
00:13:50:00 – 00:13:54:02
Speaker 2
So my sister. So she’s seven years older.
00:13:54:04 – 00:13:54:18
Speaker 1
Okay.
00:13:54:20 – 00:14:14:23
Speaker 2
I remember let’s go back. I was a people pleaser. I was I people, my sister was, I’m more of a rebel, should I say. And so I think I think my mom saw that shift so very quickly that she was, like, then focused on me, and I was this is an amazing human being. But she did not.
00:14:15:01 – 00:14:36:13
Speaker 2
So she was the oldest, I guess, the oldest. Of the family that was here, that was born and raised here in the United States. And so she did drop out of high school. And so the next person in line was me. And, and. Yeah, so I don’t think, I don’t think my sister received anywhere as close of a pressure as I did.
00:14:36:15 – 00:15:04:07
Speaker 1
Oh, no, I’m so sorry. But, I mean, I think it turned out well for you, but I think. Yeah, I’m very sorry that that that pressure cooker I mean, I know I kind of understand it. Yeah, it’s it’s really tricky. So. Yeah, I’m kind of curious about that journey, right. About your education. Journey? Like, what subjects or classes did, like what subjects or classes did you enjoy or gravitate towards?
00:15:04:09 – 00:15:27:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. I was really good in math. Interestingly, because I don’t have a love for math right now as an adult, so I don’t think I ever had a math love, but I was good at it. I was good, and I like science, which is why, when I went to college again, I have to give you a little bit of a context that I am the first one.
00:15:27:02 – 00:15:46:23
Speaker 2
Right. And so for me, going to college at that point, I wasn’t even thinking of a bachelor’s degree. Like, seriously, I was thinking about, you know, what, certification or two year program or you know what? What can I get at a community college that will allow me to to get a job? And so that was my first, immediate, I guess, quote unquote goal.
00:15:47:01 – 00:16:09:14
Speaker 2
And, and I became a certified pharmacy technician. I knew I was going to do something along the, area of science because I was just I just liked it. I really enjoyed it. And then from there, I ended up getting my bachelor’s in biology, and then later, my master’s in counseling.
00:16:09:16 – 00:16:39:15
Speaker 1
Okay. So you started out with math and then, the sciences came along and yeah. Counseling. Okay. I’m wondering, do you know, like was there a teacher or some kind of mentor or other kind of, or even a counselor? Right. Who kind of helped you figure out your path? Or was it kind of like your own, your own interests and, like, did your parents kind of.
00:16:39:15 – 00:16:44:19
Speaker 1
I know your mom might have had an influence, but I’m curious what all the influences were.
00:16:44:21 – 00:17:07:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. Great question. Professional wise and as far as, career opportunities, I mean, I was just thinking the, the most common thing, right? The the lawyer, a doctor or a teacher, you know, the some of the common things that kids would think about. And I love my teachers, I really had I, I do I have a heart for education.
00:17:07:10 – 00:17:27:00
Speaker 2
I mean, that’s one of my core values now, even as an adult. So I am in my field. I’m completely aligned where I’m at. But the person who made the most, who was the most influential in me in my life was my high school counselor, and, and and I wish you would have done the work that I do now.
00:17:27:00 – 00:17:59:01
Speaker 2
Right. This is really help find a career career early on to really discover interests, values, skills. That’s that’s what my passion is. But she did a she did a great job in letting me know that the next step was just college. Right. So that was good enough because, I mean, I probably wouldn’t have, you know, considered college if it wasn’t for her giving me the empowerment to know that I could do it and and I could, you know, set foot in a college campus and be successful.
00:17:59:03 – 00:18:14:22
Speaker 2
So I, she was very influential in my life. And that’s also where I also got the, you know, the love for, for counseling and, and, you know, that’s why I ended up pursuing a master’s degree in counseling later on in my life.
00:18:15:00 – 00:18:48:15
Speaker 1
Wow. That’s awesome. I love it when there’s, like, somebody from your compulsory education, has that long lasting impact on your career decisions or, the fields that you go into. And I love those stories where it’s like, you know, an educator did that. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I’m wondering, you know, I think that that guidance counselor made a really big impact on, you know, your education journey.
00:18:48:15 – 00:19:09:18
Speaker 1
And I’m wondering, once you started to seek out that, you know, your career and, started going into, education and things like that. I’m wondering, was there another mentor that you found along the way to help you actually transition over into excelling in your career?
00:19:09:20 – 00:19:34:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, I there’s a line of people I’m a I’m a big believer of learning from others, and building my own supportive community. The one person that played a pivotal role in my life was, was miss Crystal blank, and she was a pharmacist. So I had been certified as a pharmacy technician, and I was working, at, at a pharmacy.
00:19:34:18 – 00:19:55:16
Speaker 2
And in that pharmacy, you know, I, I served in many different areas as a technician. And I remember, I remember her asking me one day, you know, what career was I going to pursue? Or, you know, what else was in line for me? And I looked at her and I was like, I’m going to be a certified pharmacy technician for the rest of my life.
00:19:55:18 – 00:20:21:09
Speaker 2
That was my plan, right? Like, this is it. I’ve made it right. I’m the first one in, in my family and and I’ve made it, you know, I’ve made it to college. I’m now a certified farming technician. I have a good enough paying job. And I remember her looking at me and just bringing this to the forefront. She said, you are young, you don’t have any kids.
00:20:21:11 – 00:20:56:04
Speaker 2
You are smart. Why would you not continue? Why would you not continue? And, you know, get your bachelor’s degree? Like I remember that moment so clearly that I just stopped and I thought, yeah, why not? You know, and, I married young, so married then, and I remember going and talking to my husband and I said, you know, I, I spoke to to crash and, you know, she kind of just suggesting I should go back to school and, you know, get my bachelor’s degree.
00:20:56:06 – 00:21:23:05
Speaker 2
And I remember my husband looking at me and he said, yeah, why not? And I mean, it was all I need it. I felt like, it’s so interesting. I felt like I needed someone else to see the potential in me. And now that’s again. That’s another reason why I do what I do. And building community for my students is sometimes we need someone else to dream bigger for us or to believe in us.
00:21:23:07 – 00:21:42:17
Speaker 2
And so she did. You know, she made that impact in my life. I remember going into the, into the class catalog and I’m like, okay, what what degree can I can I pursue? I knew in my mind that I wanted to be an educator at some point in my life. And so I thought, what is the quickest way that I can become an educator?
00:21:42:17 – 00:22:02:11
Speaker 2
Well, because I had a lot of sciences, biology was like pretty, pretty standard. And I was like, okay, I can be a biology major. And then, you know, do alternate certification to be an educator and, and I did. I remember walking into the college campus, I remember exact location where I was, and I was walking into the college campus.
00:22:02:11 – 00:22:24:16
Speaker 2
And I was thinking, in a couple of years, I’m going to walk out of here with my degree. And it was this the most amazing feeling I had. And sure enough, years later, I walked out with my, undergraduate degree, which was interesting because remember, I was a child that could not think beyond just a certification. That’s all I could think of.
00:22:24:18 – 00:22:35:18
Speaker 2
And then I ended up going back to school, many years later and ended up working on my master’s degree and graduated with what? With a master’s degree as well.
00:22:35:20 – 00:23:01:02
Speaker 1
Wow. Yeah. No, that’s really incredible. I think, I think you said that there was a long line of people who were really influential in helping to empower you and to helping you see your own potential and your ability to grow, and then also make an impact, maybe even a bigger impact than maybe you were thinking that you could make.
00:23:01:04 – 00:23:27:19
Speaker 1
And I got so many goosebumps when you said that because, you know, it really is. It really just takes a few people to really shine that reflection back on you and say, look, this is what I see. And to help you see that version of you, that’s incredibly powerful. And the fact that, you know, you knew that that was what you wanted.
00:23:27:22 – 00:23:54:13
Speaker 1
Well, I guess developing in you that that you would do that for future students. I’m sure you know, you do that because of that long line of people who did it for you. And so I’m wondering, like, I know we kind of briefly chatted earlier about how you started teaching, in biology. You started teaching biology at a regular, like, traditional school that spaced for college.
00:23:54:15 – 00:24:15:06
Speaker 1
And then, you started teaching at a CTE, which was, you know, like more career based vocational education, afterward. And so I’m really curious, you know, how was your experience teaching at these two different types of schools?
00:24:15:07 – 00:24:38:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, you know, I noticed something very quickly. And this was once I started teaching and the career and technical cluster and and it wasn’t. Well, it was a different school, but even within, the school that I taught, the current technical education courses, we had general ed students as well, going for the four year plan.
00:24:38:23 – 00:25:27:04
Speaker 2
What I realize is that my CTE students were getting more personal development classes like, communication skills, interpersonal skills, real world skills, connecting them with, professionals in the field, allowing them to do shadowing opportunities, internships. I mean, it was very involved within the community. They had people who are professionals who are supporting them. They’re getting a lot of express learning, like hands on learning and again, really developing the, you know, the skills they needed to be successful right out of, right out of, high school into their technical or vocational, education.
00:25:27:06 – 00:25:57:11
Speaker 2
That made me realize that our students, right, are students that are college bound, that are going to be going to college, to a four year university. We’re getting purely academic, like their focus is on the math, the science, you know, the the core classes. They are not getting all the extras that are CTE students are getting. And, that’s how that’s how my, you know, my mind started going, like, what can I do to support these students?
00:25:57:11 – 00:26:19:15
Speaker 2
Like what can I do to help them realize the importance of these essential soft skills that they will need? Guess what? While they’re in college and they will need when they graduate and are looking for a job. And so I saw that disparity. And that’s how the College and Career Ready podcast kind of, formed itself. Coming on to two years.
00:26:19:17 – 00:26:50:23
Speaker 2
And then, last October, I realized that I could start making a bigger impact, you know, really moving my career into a, being an expert in career coaching and specifically for, high school college students and even post graduate, because I know, even months into it, I realized that even our recent post college graduates have not had these skills, because if we go back in time in high school, they never got it.
00:26:50:23 – 00:27:09:09
Speaker 2
And then they stay academic. They stay academic, and then they graduate. And guess what? The workforce is looking for the soft skills, for the communication skills for the personal development. And so there’s there’s a gap there. There’s a big gap that I’m trying to fill for our students.
00:27:09:11 – 00:27:40:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. And it’s so important. And as you were saying that like a lot of different gears or puzzle pieces sort of clicked, and, you know, that’s something that I feel like was missing from my own education journey. You know, I went from a high school to a four year university, but I was I always kept getting this feedback from, like, my family or people that I just wasn’t dynamic enough, that I didn’t know how to communicate, I didn’t know how to network.
00:27:40:19 – 00:28:09:06
Speaker 1
I was like, socially awkward, you know? Well, I had a lot of anxiety, too. And so, you know, I keep thinking, like, I wish I had that kind of reflection, time and guidance on, personal development and professional development, before I went to college, even, and so, you know, like, this whole podcast is about, you know, redesigning the education systems.
00:28:09:08 – 00:28:34:19
Speaker 1
And so I want to kind of ask you, like, from your own research and your experience and the people that you speak to on your own podcast, I wonder, like what kind of skills, both soft and career based. Do you think that we need to teach our children going forward, you know, to prepare them how for how to really survive in this rapidly changing economy?
00:28:34:21 – 00:28:39:20
Speaker 1
Amidst the background of, like, exponentially improving technology?
00:28:39:22 – 00:29:10:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. This is when personal development and soft skills are going to be even more important because I cannot replace the, you know, interpersonal skills, the communication skills, the networking skills. I am a big advocate of building connections because, I mean, this whole story of mine has been about the connections I have made on my own. And that’s that’s what I think we need to offer our students.
00:29:10:02 – 00:29:34:23
Speaker 2
I had had students in, like in a four year university, like our already in their pharmacy, program to become a pharmacist and never have stepped into a pharmacy. I’m like, how do you even know if this is, you know, we’re all we’re all gifted in different and in different skills, interests and abilities. How do we know that’s aligned with who you are?
00:29:35:00 – 00:30:03:12
Speaker 2
If you haven’t even met someone in the field or spoken to them or been behind the scenes? And so I think that’s what our education system needs. We need to to build these connections. There’s so many problems right now in our education system, like get certified in this, get certified that can we just certify students in character development like, oh, seriously, get a certification on your your personal self, your character development, your soft skills.
00:30:03:14 – 00:30:23:19
Speaker 2
These are the things that are going to help are like they will stand out from the crowd. I teach students, you know how to go in when they’re, going in for an interview. And that interpersonal skills, these are essential skills that I think are much, much needed in our education system.
00:30:23:21 – 00:31:10:09
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And you talk about character development. I first of all, I love your idea of like, can we have these certifications around soft skills? Right. Because that would kind of create like the milestones that you would need in order to feel successful and self efficacious in these types of skills. So I love that idea. But I also wonder, like when we talk about character development, I think so much of what character development is, is how you survive adversity and how you overcome challenges, and how you develop the confidence to lead a successful life after you overcome these challenges.
00:31:10:09 – 00:31:46:17
Speaker 1
And so I wonder, like, how can we create situations of controlled adversity? You know, for our young people to help them? Yeah. Well, that also is to say, like they probably are experiencing a lot of adversity outside of school and also in school. So I don’t mean to actually engineer additional adversity, but I am curious about like how we might, do it in an ethical, in a responsible and also in an effective way.
00:31:46:22 – 00:32:10:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. So one thing I didn’t talk about is mindset. So in my course, I have a career connections course that I, that I offer in the five week course. It’s interesting because when I first launched that course a couple of months ago, it was called Self-Discovery to your Ideal Path. Oh, the ideal career path. And people, people were not gravitating towards it, right?
00:32:10:13 – 00:32:33:07
Speaker 2
Like self-discovery. Right? In the same curriculum. I rebranded it to Career Connections. And people are like, yes, that’s what I want, I want, I want connections, I want career connections. But it’s the same curriculum. And we start with mindset and we start with self-discovery. But I don’t I don’t market asked that because again, they don’t know what I know.
00:32:33:11 – 00:32:59:13
Speaker 2
You know, you give them you give them what they want, right? But you give them what they actually need. And so in my course, we start with self-discovery. We start with mindset. The first lesson in there is what do you believe of yourself? And, you know, what do you believe? That might not even be true until we change that mindset, we help the students realize what their limiting beliefs are before we even get started.
00:32:59:15 – 00:33:36:14
Speaker 2
And then from there, we we go into the, you know, the interest and the core skills and but you know what’s funny? That it’s a very interactive course because there’s a lot of reflection. I mean, I just had my second session with my students and I told them, I know this is a lot. It gets easier as we move on to the course because at the beginning it’s a lot of go ask your parents this I want, I want your parents to describe you when you were little, before all of the social media and all of the external environment and all of that starts playing a role, I want to know who you were truly,
00:33:36:14 – 00:33:56:19
Speaker 2
authentically as a child. And then I also ask them to go in and ask current people who work with them what words with describe them, what type of, what type of energy do they bring into a room? Like, what do people feel in your presence? And so we do a lot of that again, because that’s the missing piece.
00:33:57:00 – 00:34:28:12
Speaker 2
Now once we do that, then we go over career exploration and networking and all these other soft skills that I’m talking about. But so back to to your question about character development. When we teach students that feeling fail, feel is the first attempt in learning. Then they will want to fail. Because if we fail fast, I that’s something I had the CEO, I interviewed him, and he’s like, you know what I, what I tell everyone is like, yeah, give me your secret.
00:34:28:12 – 00:35:00:06
Speaker 2
He said, fail fast. I was like, wait, what? So yes, because the faster you fail, the quicker you’ll learn, the quicker you’ll pick yourself up. And, you know, the more successful you can be. Now the other thing too, is, and this is something that parents, educators, anybody can help with this. If we stop talking about about grades and GPA and where we stand in comparison to other people, and we instead start talking about what was your growth from last year to this year?
00:35:00:07 – 00:35:22:06
Speaker 2
Not compared to anyone else, but to yourself. And I say this I’m a mom of twins, and so my kids were born one minute apart from each other, and I can’t compare one child to the other. Say, why aren’t you, you know, like your brother and why you’re like your sister? Because they’re different. So if I instead focus on, okay, where were you at four months ago?
00:35:22:06 – 00:35:44:15
Speaker 2
And where are you at now, then I’m actually preparing them for success because then they will just do self-reliant self-reflection on their own personal journey, not comparing themselves to anyone else. And I also want to add this. You know, our education system in I might have said this earlier because I just say this all the time, but our education system is training our kids that they have to be good at everything.
00:35:44:21 – 00:36:17:04
Speaker 2
I mean, I don’t know about about you, right? But I’m not good at everything. So this, this notion, this belief that you have to be, you know, above average or above average on every single subject. I mean, we’re we’re setting them up for failure right there because not everybody is good at everything. And even a company go to the largest company and, or even the smallest company, and there’s not one person who knows every aspect of the job 100%.
00:36:17:06 – 00:36:48:07
Speaker 1
I want to say 100% exactly like everything you said, right? There is gold. And, you know, like to your point about like, not everybody is good at everything. And like, our education system is really set up where everybody feels like they have to be good at everything. And I learned this on my podcast in the first season that the reason this is because, you know, the education system is really designed for the success of the economy.
00:36:48:13 – 00:37:16:12
Speaker 1
It’s not really designed for the success of our children. And that’s a very nuanced, I guess, differentiation. But, you know, the economy runs when there’s a lot of competition. And that is why, like, we want every student to be in competition with each other, with each other, because we want them to be the best economic product that they can be.
00:37:16:14 – 00:37:43:11
Speaker 1
And so when I realize that through, like speaking with people in the first season, I was like, oh my gosh, this is like the point at which the the system needs to be redesigned is how can we redesign it for collaborate and for connection, where we’re not having to be good at every single thing, but we are getting good at what our skills and, what our own interests are.
00:37:43:13 – 00:38:07:21
Speaker 1
And so I love that you brilliantly summarized that in, your response right there. And I wanted to ask you about the limiting beliefs part. You talked about like the first thing that you start with is mindset and how, you know, you really want to understand, well, what are the obstacles that are preventing these students from succeeding.
00:38:07:21 – 00:38:15:20
Speaker 1
And I’m wondering, what are some common limiting beliefs that you hear from from your students?
00:38:15:20 – 00:38:48:16
Speaker 2
Oh my gosh, I can tell you the number one is I’m not smart enough. And and the response that I give them is you don’t have to be smart enough. You have to know how to use the right resources and how to ask the right questions, because you go back in time, go read all the books of the the biggest leaders, you know, and, and, people in history, they didn’t know all the answers, but but they knew who to ask and they knew who to reference.
00:38:48:18 – 00:39:02:10
Speaker 2
And so that’s what I tell my students. You don’t have to be smart enough, but you do have to know who to ask the right questions and how to get the tools and resources that you need for whatever it is you’re trying to accomplish.
00:39:02:12 – 00:39:23:19
Speaker 1
That is really good. And I want to say, like, that was totally my limiting belief to that I was not intelligent enough. And like, I think that’s really why I started this podcast is like, oh my goodness, I want to rewrite this narrative of mine. So yeah, I’m so glad I’m having this conversation with you. Yeah.
00:39:23:21 – 00:39:45:07
Speaker 2
You know what? I’ll add this phrase because I think this is important. This came, very clear to me by there you go. Someone else by a pharmacist and another pharmacist that I work with. I worked at a at a major, hospital. And the pharmacy manager, who was also, obviously a pharmacist is a pharmacy manager.
00:39:45:09 – 00:40:15:14
Speaker 2
And I remember him telling me that he just barely passed pharmacy school. Like, he just like his grades were, like, average and probably even below average because he just barely made it. But he was an amazing pharmacist. I loved him, he was so skilled and he was so good at what he did. And that was the first time that I realized that a grade or a GPA was not a reflection of the success of the person.
00:40:15:18 – 00:40:43:04
Speaker 2
Like, I was so clear in my so glad I had him in my life early on, and for him to be so open and honest about that. And I think the more honest we are about the more honest conversations we have with each other, the more we’ll learn and the more work we we will grow. And, you know, I think, I think this is definitely a conversation that’s much needed for students and and for education leaders to realize that we we have some work.
00:40:43:08 – 00:40:46:21
Speaker 2
We have some work to be done for sure.
00:40:46:23 – 00:41:28:12
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh. Yeah. And you know, like you mentioning this pharmacist kind of reminds me of the journey of, Neil deGrasse Tyson. He’s an astrophysicist, maybe the one of the most famous ones. And he said, I don’t know, like in an interview, I don’t know, over ten years ago, I listened. I think it was NPR. And he was talking about how when he was a child, he kind of got like CS, mostly be like BS and CS and and the reason why was because he was curious about so many different things and not so much on, his grades.
00:41:28:12 – 00:42:02:10
Speaker 1
He was focusing on the curiosity and the experimentation, side of things. And so, yeah, that’s a really, really great, relevant point to bring up. Thank you for that. And then you also mentioned, that, you really focus on identifying, like, the growth path that, students can take when once they identify those limiting beliefs, and start to unpack and, you know, kind of tailor a, a journey path or a plan for them to get to where they need to go.
00:42:02:16 – 00:42:19:22
Speaker 1
And I’m wondering, like, what do you think? Or maybe since you’re already doing this, like, how should educators be designing that growth plan? Like, what are some things we should be including, in this plan to help them get to the next step?
00:42:20:00 – 00:42:48:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. Great question. You know it. I still firmly believe in self-reflection. I know that’s going to be hard to to do, but, you know, when we reflect on our own journey, that’s how we see the opportunities for growth. That’s where we see patterns of success, and that’s where we see where what it is that helps us, you know, grow and continue to be growing, academically or personally.
00:42:49:01 – 00:43:16:08
Speaker 2
And, and so I think we need to have more time to stop and think. We’re all in a hurry. And I don’t know where we’re going. We’re all such an are you are going, going, going. And and we really just need time to sit down and, and be a little bit more, more reflective and be able to, be able to, to appreciate individuality, not comparison.
00:43:16:08 – 00:43:48:19
Speaker 2
If we start really focusing on the student individually, I think there’s a lot of opportunities. If there is a child who, you know, and I know we talked earlier about the economy, right, and, and financial success. But if we align careers, if we align careers to students in which they’re passionate about purpose driven, mission driven, where they’re using their skills, gifts, talents, then they they will put that much more effort to to reach those goals.
00:43:48:19 – 00:44:18:18
Speaker 2
Those career goals are successful goals. Right. And and then if we do that and pair this, this child with someone who they can look up to, then we’re setting them up for success. But unfortunately, our education system is like we’re just handing degrees and we’re just handing certifications with no connections with no, you know, real world skills and and that’s leaving them behind because they’re very educated.
00:44:18:18 – 00:44:45:05
Speaker 2
But then personally, they don’t know how to get that certification, that the plumber that degree and how to find that next job. There’s nothing that that irks me more, other than seeing a college graduate unable to find a job, you know, because that’s what we’re that’s what we’re taught, that if you get a degree, you’re going to you’re going to have a job, and then they graduate because they don’t get all these skills that they need.
00:44:45:07 – 00:45:03:16
Speaker 2
And then what do employers say? We need 3 to 5 years of experience. Well they did the college allow for that opportunity. Is that was that included in the program. And some of them are not some of them have no requirements for internship opportunities. They graduate and they say, oh great, you have a degree. Where’s your 3 to 5 years of experience?
00:45:03:18 – 00:45:25:15
Speaker 2
So much can be done in the college years where the students can be developing, transferable skills that when they graduate, they can say, oh yeah, I have three years of experience or four years of experience because I have maximized my time in college, and I have used the summers to get internships and opportunities for them to gain these skills.
00:45:25:17 – 00:45:52:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s so important. I think, like I also come from a family like my mother, my single immigrant mom. She basically was like, I don’t want you to focus on work. I just want you to focus on getting your degree. And that I felt like was such a big lost opportunity, right? Of like just focusing on my degree and not actually gaining those really, important skills that employers are looking for.
00:45:53:01 – 00:46:01:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so, yeah, that that’s really, really good advice. I wish I had listened to you, you know, like 20 years ago.
00:46:01:23 – 00:46:26:00
Speaker 2
You know, I hear that if I, if, if people would give me a quarter for every time I hear this, I would be like, rich right now. I hear this all the time. And and, you know, I had the blessing. Because when I was in high school, I ended up being in the, Business Professionals of America, which was also like, like a CTE track.
00:46:26:02 – 00:46:48:13
Speaker 2
And, through that course, I got a co op to work at NASA, and that was my first paid internship. This is senior year. And and I remember my parents, you know, they they allowed me the opportunity to, to work. Never did they collect the dime from me. Like that was my money. I never had to, you know, pay or do anything at home.
00:46:48:15 – 00:47:19:01
Speaker 2
But they allowed me that opportunity to to develop work skills. And then thankfully, that helped me later on in my life. But but yeah, it’s it’s a reframing that we have to do with parents as well, that it’s not about the money, it’s about the skills that they’re going to be gaining that’s going to help them, not only graduate and find a job, but graduate and end up with a higher paying job because students who have internships, statistically proven, will end up with a higher entry salary than students who don’t.
00:47:19:03 – 00:48:01:05
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh. So this is really eye opening. Because what I just saw was an insight, and that, you know, some parents are really focused on, like, helping their children find a career or find, some kind of stability so that they can kind of obtain independent financial independence. But some parents like mine, sort of see, these extraneous extracurricular, job type opportunities as, kind of unnecessary or distracting distracting from the academic.
00:48:01:11 – 00:48:31:19
Speaker 1
And so they place. Right. So they place a lot of importance on, I guess, the prestige of like an academic program, but they don’t actually value the practicality of what those programs might actually, give to their children to obtain financial independence. And so, you know, there really is a disconnect of like, what parents think is the most valuable thing for their children.
00:48:31:21 – 00:48:55:20
Speaker 1
And so I’m curious for you, like, as you work with a lot of these students, what do you think are those messages that they’re that the students are receiving from their families, their communities that might also be getting in the way or contributing to those limiting beliefs?
00:48:55:20 – 00:49:19:03
Speaker 2
Oh, that’s a great question. I don’t think we’re talking enough about what does financial success mean? Because you can be making X. Y is the amount of money, and the same person makes the same amount of money. But how much one is in debt will make the difference. What’s really, you know, what the net profit is right in.
00:49:19:09 – 00:49:44:17
Speaker 2
And we don’t have enough conversations about that. We don’t talk about, return on investment in your education. Ken, what is the best education that you can get at the best price? So when you graduate, you are able to be more financially stable and successful. And then, you know, same thing with how to invest your money and how to use your money.
00:49:44:18 – 00:50:06:11
Speaker 2
Smart Lee. So when you again. So when you graduate, we’re setting them up. If we’re just targeting that, this is if we’re just talking about financial success. And you and I already know that success can mean many things. But if we’re talking about financial success, then we need to be talking about return on investment. We need to have open conversations about what entry level salary ranges are for, for that type of degree program.
00:50:06:13 – 00:50:28:13
Speaker 2
And you know, what is the most affordable education and best education that you can get that will also allow for experiential learning. And I think there’s a lot of colleges and universities. I am seeing a movement where they are really they’re realizing that experiential learning is necessary. So hopefully we’re moving in the right direction in that.
00:50:28:15 – 00:51:03:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, that’s really great. I, you know, looking back on your education journey, both formal and informal, like at home and in society, professional, professional. I know we talked a lot about connection and communication and experience and, those kinds of, like, soft skills. And I’m wondering like, what is one skill that you think you wish you would have learned sooner?
00:51:03:22 – 00:51:21:08
Speaker 2
Oh, that’s a great question. You know, I think it’s not necessarily a skill, but if I wish somebody would have sat down with me and and really helped me discover more.
00:51:21:10 – 00:51:51:01
Speaker 2
Not just interest, because that’s what I hear people say. That’s what I should be interested in. But really discovering my own unique skills, gifts and talents. Now, thankfully, I align those well. I just think that where I’m at now in my career life, I probably could have gotten here much faster if somebody would have sat down and and helped me, you know, really discover myself as an individual.
00:51:51:03 – 00:52:22:22
Speaker 2
That’s something I wish somebody would have done. For me. And, and I think, again, I am right where I’m supposed to be. I just, I think it would have been faster, to get here, but then again, it’s through those those again, exponential learning or those opportunities that I had that helped me realize that there was there was, an area where a need wasn’t being met with my students and how I could better serve them.
00:52:23:00 – 00:52:49:19
Speaker 1
No. Yeah, that’s a great question. A great answer. And that kind of reminds me of, like, you know what you said in the beginning about how like, that pattern of anxiety kept following you around. I think you called it separation anxiety. Right. And so I just kind of think about. Yeah. Wouldn’t it have also been great if somebody were able to help you identify that early or earlier on?
00:52:49:23 – 00:53:25:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. No. Absolutely. And that that’s definitely a good point. I think from a mental health aspect, that would have been better, to have to have somebody realize that that was, you know, something within me that needed, support because that’s all it needed. It needed support and needed resources and tools. Rather than just pulling me out of my uncomfort and putting them in, putting me in a comfort zone again, because again, you know, it was just going to get bigger and bigger.
00:53:25:17 – 00:53:39:02
Speaker 2
But at the same time, it’s part of my journey and it makes me who I am. So I don’t think, you know, right now, I don’t think I would change anything. But my goal now is to change it for future generations.
00:53:39:04 – 00:54:04:20
Speaker 1
And that brings me to my final question, which really is, is there anything about your own education journey that you wouldn’t want the next generation to learn the hard way? And also, I want to personalize this by asking it to asking you to tailor it for your twins, right? Is there anything about your education journey that you wouldn’t want your twins to learn the hard way?
00:54:04:22 – 00:54:34:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, you know, I think not be afraid to fail and fail as part of a learning process. I mean, we we’ve got to stop making the feel that there’s this, you know, perfect way of doing things because that allows for creativity when when our kids are different from us, when they behave different, it allows them to, to just grow, and to not be afraid, not be afraid of a failure.
00:54:34:09 – 00:54:59:18
Speaker 2
And something I do instill in them right now. And I’m even working myself as a parent because here’s here’s the catch. Even though I’ve done so much work on myself, I think that the system or the environment, you know, kind of plays a role in me thinking, oh, wait, but my my children are not doing enough. And that’s when I have to sit back and I’d be like, no, they’re perfect where they’re at.
00:54:59:20 – 00:55:20:01
Speaker 2
You know, we’re instilling, you know, appreciating and learning how to fail and learning from the experience. But at the same time and this is what I definitely do, is growth mindset. I mean, I don’t focus on grades. I’ve there’s been several parents, actually, even just today I had a conversation with several parents. They’re not focused on grades, but they do hold this.
00:55:20:01 – 00:55:41:14
Speaker 2
And this is where a lot of people are like, wow, you know, how do you know if they’re doing better? Well, I what I mean is I look at grades, but how do they compare where they started and where they’re at? That’s how I look at grades from a growth mindset, not is are they compared to everybody else.
00:55:41:16 – 00:56:06:21
Speaker 2
And so the growth mindset I think is something that’s going if we can focus on that, I think we can have so many students reach unlimited levels of potential and success because they’re going to be growing with a mindset and not complacency. Complacency happens when you think, oh, I’ve met the standard and now I can just relax rather than say, okay, I’m just going to continue to.
00:56:06:21 – 00:56:16:22
Speaker 2
I still learn to this day, you know, that’s why I have a podcast. That’s why you’re podcaster too, because we’re all learning from these stories that people share with us.
00:56:17:00 – 00:56:20:05
Speaker 1
Lifelong learner. Yes. True definition.
00:56:20:07 – 00:56:21:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:56:21:21 – 00:56:32:00
Speaker 1
This was such a great conversation. Is there anything, last words of wisdom or something that you would like to share with, the next generation?
00:56:32:00 – 00:57:00:16
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And it would be enjoy the journey. There is no end point. You we always we’re it’s good to have goals. Trust me, I have them. But I need to enjoy the journey and have fun while I’m reaching or achieving those goals. Because if we wait to enjoy life, to enjoy the journey until we quote unquote reach those goals, we’ve missed the majority of our life.
00:57:00:18 – 00:57:10:02
Speaker 2
And so enjoy the journey and whatever it is you’re doing, take time to just breathe and and have fun.
00:57:10:04 – 00:57:19:00
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.