Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Jon—a pastor and podcaster—about growing up in a family of farm workers, and being raised by a mom who wanted a different life for her child. We talk about his earliest memories of his education journey being wired for social connection. We discuss his non-linear career path, and what conditions and circumstances led to him becoming a pastor, after moving to Texas. We also chat about his thoughts on parenting, what the challenges of the digital era brings to raising children, and what he wished he had received more of in school.
Here is our edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:12 – 00:00:28:01
Unknown
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:28:03 – 00:00:51:13
Unknown
I design curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:51:15 – 00:01:20:01
Unknown
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be. What it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with John, a pastor and podcaster, about growing up in a family of farmworkers and being raised by a mom who wanted a different life for her son.
00:01:20:03 – 00:01:45:06
Unknown
We talk about his earliest memories of his education journey being wired for social connection. We discuss his non-linear career path and what conditions and circumstances led to him becoming a pastor. After moving to Texas, we also chat about his thoughts on parenting with the challenges of the digital era brings to raising children, and what he wished he had received more of in school.
00:01:45:07 – 00:01:52:08
Unknown
Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:52:10 – 00:02:15:03
Unknown
It’s a great question. So my I was just reflecting on this with my wife. My wife is a teacher. So we were I was talking about this and we’ve got two boys that are going through school. And so I was always young. And so I started kindergarten at four. And then when I was in first grade, I moved from a first second combination class to third grade.
00:02:15:05 – 00:02:44:20
Unknown
So I was always on the young side. And so there was always a little bit of in me. I got to keep up like I got to keep up, and that made it, that made school a little bit of a different experience. as an only child. So I had so much support. I had just an insane amount of support, even though my parents weren’t particularly academically focused.
00:02:44:22 – 00:03:17:04
Unknown
my mom left high school. I’m a little all over the place. Okay. My mom left high school when she was like, 15 and got married. and then eventually went back in her 30s before she had me and got a college degree. so that was a big piece of the academic achievement, but, the my family wasn’t super, academic in that way, but as an only child, my mom was very focused on me being very academic.
00:03:17:06 – 00:03:49:07
Unknown
And me, like, do well, but it also was an overwhelming pressure as an only child, I guess. I guess I had a lot of support and resources, so I was. The best way, I guess, for me to frame it as I was always like a a B student, just without a ton of effort, and a lot of, just natural, like, okay, I think I know how to do this and make it work.
00:03:49:09 – 00:04:19:03
Unknown
So that wasn’t I don’t know that that’s the best. but it it worked to get me where I am now. Yeah. No, absolutely. I kind of wanted to rewind a second and ask you about, You said you were an only child, and. And you got this feeling like you were a kind of you needed to do well because you were always the youngest and that you were somewhat, like, not behind, but trying to catch up.
00:04:19:05 – 00:04:45:06
Unknown
And I was wondering, like, can you remember any stories or any instances where, that could illustrate that? Yes. and it’s not an academic stuff. Okay. Yeah. But it’s a, I was in fifth grade and we were doing the, what do they call it, the human life and sexuality thing. And they sent home with the permission slip.
00:04:45:07 – 00:05:06:21
Unknown
And my mom was like, well, do you want to learn about this? And I was like, oh, not really. And so she didn’t sign the permission slip. But I didn’t understand that literally everyone in the class would be going to the boys room and the girls room. So I’m the only person in the class sitting with the teacher, not doing the human life and sexuality presentation.
00:05:06:23 – 00:05:30:00
Unknown
And of course the teacher thinks, oh, well, everybody’s going to do this. But the the permission slip is a mere formality because we have to do this. And so I’m going to get like a free period off where I can go hang out. Instead, the teachers are sitting there at the desk like grading papers, and I’m in the classroom like, and I remember the feeling of going, I’m this is never going to happen to me again.
00:05:30:02 – 00:05:47:22
Unknown
Like, I’m never going to be the odd man out because then everybody’s like, oh, did you see this? And did you see that? And then, you know, they make fun of you for not being there. And I was just kind of like, you would have. But like, obviously I felt very a lot of FOMO. Yeah. A lot of being left out of that discussion.
00:05:48:00 – 00:06:13:04
Unknown
and I probably didn’t need to know because I was like ten maybe at the time in fifth grade, something like that. 9 or 10. So it probably was too early. But at the same time I was like, I’m not getting left behind again. No way. This is this feels terrible. And so there was always this, like, this weird tension within me because I’ve listened to some of your other guests, right?
00:06:13:04 – 00:06:48:06
Unknown
And they’re like super achievers, like people that were just like, yeah, yeah. And I was doing trigonometry when I was seven, and I’d learn an instrument. I am so not like that. And so there’s a tension in me that was like just enough to get by, but also this chasing of not being left behind. And so somehow that tension created some weird thing that allowed me to do well enough and be on the higher end versus being just totally lazy.
00:06:48:07 – 00:07:15:04
Unknown
so yeah, that was, that was a thing. Oh, man. I feel like my mother was always saying yes to like, everything that was coming from school, partially because she didn’t really know what was the expectation, and she didn’t really have a plan for herself. and so she didn’t really, and being an immigrant, she couldn’t really read.
00:07:15:06 – 00:07:44:02
Unknown
she also wasn’t that studious or scholastic or academic herself. so she was just like, okay, whatever the school, you know, like, I’m completely outsourcing this. And so. Yeah, right, right. And, you know, I was also an only child. and I’m wondering, like, do you feel like your mother was sort of a collaborator with you in your education, or do you think, she was taking her cue from you?
00:07:44:02 – 00:08:11:11
Unknown
Or, like, what was her approach to your education? Yeah, my. So my family’s kind of a weird situation. That’s kind of important, for this question. And so my mom, when she was pregnant with me, moved in with her uncle and his wife, and they never had kids. But I grew up my whole life thinking that every family had two moms and a dad, until I was like 8 or 9.
00:08:11:11 – 00:08:36:18
Unknown
And then I’m like, wait a minute, most people don’t have two moms. That’s weird. and so it was this odd family unit where it’s my great aunt, my great uncle, and my mom. But I called everybody mom or dad. And so they all grew up similarly very rural, very poor, and academics wasn’t a big deal. They would get pulled out of school in the spring because we lived in Southern California.
00:08:36:20 – 00:08:58:13
Unknown
They would they were the kind of people that when they were young, they would get pulled out of school in the spring to go work in the fields because you didn’t get paid per hour. You got paid for how much you picked, whatever it was. And so you pulled the whole family out of school. And, you know, my mom has stories of riding on people’s shoulders, picking the stuff that’s high.
00:08:58:13 – 00:09:22:07
Unknown
And so they were like itinerant farm workers to a certain degree, like The Grapes of Wrath. The next generation of The Grapes of Wrath were my family. And so they all grew up really rural and poor. And so school was they didn’t want me to grow up like that. And any success my family had, they all worked at a plant, a Sunkist plant in Southern California.
00:09:22:07 – 00:09:42:23
Unknown
At some point, everybody in my family, I think I was probably the first boy not to work there, in some capacity, either as a part time gig or whatever. And some of my uncles, like, rose up and became like, you know, some kind of management there or even, like, executive kind of level there. But everybody did time there.
00:09:42:23 – 00:10:04:23
Unknown
So we were laborers. That was it was a very blue collar family. So going back to your question, right, of part of my mom’s thing was she had this burning desire to want something better for me and just be like, nope, you’re going to college. It’s not even a thought. It’s not even, it’s not even a question.
00:10:05:01 – 00:10:22:18
Unknown
It’s just that is what you’re doing. You have to do well, there was a desire for that. And at the same time, she didn’t grow up like that. And so I think she was just kind of making it up as she went. And she’s a smart lady that had gone to college later in life. And so she figured some things out.
00:10:22:20 – 00:10:52:00
Unknown
But there wasn’t like a firm structure of like, this is how you go to college. It was more like a North Star just pointing of like, you got to get to that. And I think that was a big part of. So in some ways we felt like we were learning together. but in the way that she was leading that process was a very high expectation.
00:10:52:01 – 00:11:05:21
Unknown
I wouldn’t even say high. It was just, the basic expectation was college. You look back and you go, oh, maybe that was a high expectation for where we grew up in a more blue collar kind of setting. But it was never a question, and I never questioned it. It was just what I was going to do.
00:11:05:23 – 00:11:36:06
Unknown
Yeah. And you know what that makes me think of? I think like I just recently wrote a short story, looking back at how critical my mother was of me and I kind of think about, like, you know, your child, you know, you know what they’re capable of. You know what they’re not. And so she knew in many ways that I could be a creative person, that I could make it in the world and creative person.
00:11:36:06 – 00:12:02:06
Unknown
And so that’s why she pushed me in that direction. So, you know, I don’t feel like your mother would have had that expectation if she didn’t know that you were capable of meeting it. and so, you know, I’m curious, like, how did she show you or what kinds of things did she do with you that helped you navigate towards that North Star?
00:12:02:08 – 00:12:31:11
Unknown
Yeah. She, It’s great that you that you point that out because she and my mom would listen to this, like she listens to everything that I do. So, she’s gonna listen to this. Oh. Hi, mom. I love you. she also, as the only child, held me in a high regard of, like, you can do no wrong, and there’s nothing you cannot do.
00:12:31:13 – 00:12:51:16
Unknown
Now, that’s not to say that there wasn’t some discipline, but there was just even still, she holds me a little bit, holds me a little bit above where I think I actually am. Not a little bit. A lot above her, actually. like, she she sees me idealistically, let’s say it that way. And so she sees me very idealistically.
00:12:51:16 – 00:13:14:23
Unknown
And so from the very beginning, she had this mindset of there’s nothing he can’t do. And so, I mean, we were reading at the very beginning and she was a little, one of the things that I’ve heard her say before is that she’s not a big believer in no. and so, like, I, I feel like learning to write and things like that.
00:13:14:23 – 00:13:32:21
Unknown
I kind of like, cobble that together without a lot of like. And she knew that there was a better way, but she’s like, let’s see him do it. Let’s see what he does with that. but we were reading at the very beginning. We are working on phonics. We were all like, we were going to the library. We were doing all those things.
00:13:32:21 – 00:13:53:17
Unknown
And the fact that I did skip a grade was and started early was because of her. And I remembered her telling me about this later where the principal was talking to her. You know, because it’s first grade to third grade, right? That’s a pretty big, jump. But it’s also like everybody’s young who knows how it’s going to shake out.
00:13:53:17 – 00:14:22:03
Unknown
But the principal was like, I don’t know. He’s a pretty big boy. You’re going to want those girls for football. And my mom was like, no, absolutely not. Academics are the future. Like that’s the that is the the path that he is going to walk. And that’s the kind of decision, right. That in what she’s doing and the way that she’s investing to me of going, she knows me.
00:14:22:09 – 00:14:44:00
Unknown
She’s been working with me as much as she possibly can, reading a ton, a big reading culture. I can remember during the summer of like, she would try to get me to read for fun, and I just wasn’t that interested. I wanted to go outside and play with my friends or like play video games, whatever. And so she spread out a blanket on the front, you know, on the grass and we tried to read this book and there was a really funny part.
00:14:44:06 – 00:15:14:07
Unknown
And she would try to do funny voices and like, she was really always pushing, reading and all of those things. And then she, you know, makes this big decision to that’s going to affect my whole life, right, to skip grades. But it was from this like insane. I won’t say insane. That’s not fair. But this complete commitment to my potential and that it was infinite and there was no there was no ceiling.
00:15:14:07 – 00:15:40:23
Unknown
Yeah. And I think she really believed that. And I think, mom, I think you still may be believing, that there’s no limit to what is possible. And so I think I internalized that and it had some positive consequences. I think it had some challenging consequences too. But overall, I hope that answers your question. But I’m also curious about the consequences, but I’m going to pull that in a little bit later.
00:15:41:01 – 00:16:05:16
Unknown
cool. That’s amazing. I think it’s really, truly wonderful and so supportive. And I think you also mentioned that as a resource for you, like your socio emotional development, that she had that trust in you and that she was also capable of supplying you with the activities to help you nurture that potential. So, you know, you know, that’s that’s really amazing.
00:16:05:16 – 00:16:43:00
Unknown
Good job mom. yeah. I mean, she’s a wildly hard worker. I haven’t said that, but she’s she’s stubborn to the point that there’s no barrier that she felt like, okay, I don’t know this, but I’ll figure it out. Yeah, that’s that’s resilience, you know? And, I think I was listening to, a Google talk a while back, and, the host was asking Yuval Noah Harari, you know, what are the the skills that we need to equip our children with, you know, as we head into this really wildly uncertain future?
00:16:43:02 – 00:17:16:14
Unknown
And he was like, two things. mental stability and emotional resilience. and so I feel like, you know, parents who can do that, who are mature enough to be able to not pass on like, traumas of their own or, have, like, limiting beliefs that they pass on to their children. You know, it seems like your mother was able to like, if she had them, like, stop them with her and not pass them on to you.
00:17:16:14 – 00:17:51:13
Unknown
So, you know, that’s that’s amazing. Right? and so, yeah. Yeah. I would love to know, like, what are some, subjects that you enjoyed throughout your, compulsory education through elementary, middle and high school and what, what and also in that same question, like, what kind of positive feedback did you receive from, your teachers? Yeah, I was always, I always like social studies.
00:17:51:15 – 00:18:10:22
Unknown
I always like history. I was never a big fan of English. Oh, wow. I was okay with English. But the thing I learned later in life, after I got married, and this happened once when my wife and I were on vacation. But she’s like, let’s read. And I’m like, I’m not really into fiction. I only read like nonfiction, like all that stuff.
00:18:11:00 – 00:18:28:19
Unknown
And and then we started kind of reading and she was like, what? You don’t see it? And she started to describe the picture of what the book was doing, like what it was talking about. And I was like, I don’t see that in my head. I just read words. I don’t have a picture with. And that’s why I fiction felt boring.
00:18:28:21 – 00:18:51:19
Unknown
And so I, I don’t I didn’t know that at the time as a kid. And so I was just doing these reading assignments and so things didn’t connect with me emotionally in the same way because I’m just processing the information, not painting a picture. and so English was, was okay, like, I’m, I’m a I was a good writer and I could express myself and communicate really well.
00:18:51:19 – 00:19:19:15
Unknown
So English was never a struggle. It just wasn’t my favorite subject. I always struggled with math. it was always a challenge. I did well in elementary. I did pretty well in junior high, and I did okay in high school, mostly. Just honestly, I think because my teachers like me, and I tried like, I wasn’t like, this is stupid and throw my book away, but I also was just kind of like, I don’t really get this, but I’m trying.
00:19:19:17 – 00:19:45:07
Unknown
math was always difficult for me, especially as we got to algebra two. Like, geometry kind of made sense to me, but algebra and Algebra two were hard. and I don’t know that I ever got some of the concepts from those things, but man, history and social studies, like, you know, you take economic books in high school, or at least I did, and things like that were always really appealing to me.
00:19:45:07 – 00:20:14:21
Unknown
And I got into drama in high school. randomly. I just picked an elective. I tried photography at some point. yeah. That wasn’t that wasn’t great. I didn’t like it. It’s very detail oriented, and I’m not. I’ve learned later in life. Right. I’m 41 years old now, 42, 41 turning 42 this year. I’ve, this is going to speak to the point.
00:20:15:02 – 00:20:43:06
Unknown
I’m not a particularly detail oriented person. And photography was very detail oriented. I love the idea of capturing these images and like the emotion behind the picture and everything with it. But I hated doing the darkroom work where you gotta go and, you know, I mean, this is pre-digital, like, and so you’re going in the dark room and you’re developing film and you’re putting it in the, you know, the toner and the whatever, and you do.
00:20:43:06 – 00:21:03:17
Unknown
I hated all of that. I hated all of the detail oriented work that it took to do that. And I think that’s part of why math was difficult. And so subjects where there were stories subject where there were opportunities for interpretation and kind of not so much black and white. those are the subjects that I excelled at the most.
00:21:03:19 – 00:21:19:06
Unknown
the feedback I got was always things around. Wow, that’s creative. Or hey, good job on this of understanding the big picture. and in math, it was more just like, hey, nice try.
00:21:19:08 – 00:21:36:04
Unknown
Thank you. Thank you for because I did all the work. That’s another thing that, you know, is a my mom thing of just like, you’re going to do all the work, you’re not going to skip assignments. I don’t care if it’s hard. You’re just going to do it. And I’m like, okay, cool, so I do. I did everything and that allowed me to do okay in school.
00:21:36:06 – 00:22:03:16
Unknown
Yeah. Do you think that, like, in comparison to your peers, like, would you say you were average? Would you say that you were, just above average, like overachiever? Like where do you think in comparison to either your close circle of peers or just like your peers in general at school or even at, you know, the nation at large, like, where do you would you place yourself?
00:22:03:18 – 00:22:31:14
Unknown
I was an overachiever. I would say, in that group of people. But I wouldn’t want you to know that. And I, I was always more social than academic. And so my goal was always to, like, make friends and connect with people. And so I would say my circle of friends is always on the, the top part of the of the scale, but not the tippy top.
00:22:31:16 – 00:22:55:17
Unknown
And so the kids that are, you know, if we’re going elementary school, the kids that are standing out and getting like the awards and all those things, like, I knew those kids, we were cool. But that wasn’t the group of people that I ran with. it was more I was probably more like the top, I think my friends and who knows, I think my friends would be like, yeah, John is like good academically.
00:22:55:17 – 00:23:22:11
Unknown
Like, that’s the thing that he focuses on. And he’s on the higher end of where we are. But not like, I’m not the just the nerd. Right? Hanging out with the more nerdy kind of kids in high school. My goal is to know everybody. And I would have defined myself more as, an athlete or a drama kid, like, by the interests, more than the academics.
00:23:22:11 – 00:23:44:07
Unknown
But I was in honors classes, and so I would be in like the middle of the pack of the honors classes. But I was still in honors classes. Right. And so that was the that was where I was. I just kind of the I had a 3.3, I think, or 3.5, 3.3 that was like where I was. And that’s not weighted with all the things that the kids do these days.
00:23:44:07 – 00:24:04:19
Unknown
But that was just where I was in high school and college. It was just like right there. That was my sweet spot. A’s and B’s. I’m happy throwing a C every now and then to keep me humble. Maybe an A+ if I get a hot streak like. But generally I was just right there. And so I, you know, I was on that top kind of, not top.
00:24:04:19 – 00:24:26:05
Unknown
I was at the high end of the if, if you’re thinking of it, 100%, 50% is in the middle. There’s like the 75th percentile. I’m like the I’m like hanging out right there. That’s where I’m at. That’s where I’m comfortable. I’m in honors classes and I know all the honors kids, but I’m not that smart. I’m not like and or I’m not as driven.
00:24:26:07 – 00:24:55:02
Unknown
I mean, I had classmates who were so driven and I look back and they’re, you know, and their biology professor, you know, neurochemistry, neurobiology professors at UC Berkeley and like others that like super driven I was I was never that and I wasn’t that, I didn’t I don’t even know if I had that potential even if I wanted to, but I, I, I didn’t define myself as academically as I did socially.
00:24:55:04 – 00:25:18:08
Unknown
Yeah. That makes okay. I kind of I’m getting a picture because I know you eventually became a pastor, so like it’s starting to make sense, right? Like the social studies. Right. Like you being socially oriented and and being a great communicator. So I’m kind of curious, like, what did you pursue after college and how did you get into becoming a pastor?
00:25:18:10 – 00:25:42:21
Unknown
Great question. I did not go to school for any of that. I was an international relations major because that and I, I you will enjoy this. I went into school undecided. I was just like. But I was also okay. This blows my mind to the day I started college when I was 16, and I was just like.
00:25:42:23 – 00:26:09:06
Unknown
Like I look back now is a 40 something and I’m like, what was I? I was a baby. Like, how was I supposed to know anything about the future? but I went in undecided and was just like, okay, I know the my mom also gave me some pragmatism. Just as much as it’s like she thinks I could do anything, there was I, I maybe it’s actually not my mom.
00:26:09:06 – 00:26:33:01
Unknown
I think it was my dad who gave me a little bit of pragmatism of like, you do what you’re good at, like you’re at a place now where you can do what you’re good at. You don’t have to do all these things. And I’m like, well, I need a major that requires no math. And so I’m like, narrowing down the majors, which is the opposite way that you’re probably supposed to do it.
00:26:33:03 – 00:26:53:08
Unknown
But I’m like, okay, that means I can’t do business. Okay, business is out. Okay. But then I landed in international relations and it was a really good fit for me. and I loved it. And I got a minor in, in a discipline within it and was really excited about all of that and that eventually the minor was in peace and conflict stuff.
00:26:53:08 – 00:27:15:04
Unknown
Oh, wow. which certainly has come to play later in life. but I also wasn’t super motivated at the end of college. And so a lot of my story has to do with me getting married. I was dating my wife. She was a theater, theater major. Musical theater minor. That’s what she loved. And I was like, I thought I was going to work for the State Department.
00:27:15:04 – 00:27:34:20
Unknown
That was the goal. I wanted to travel the world, work for the State Department. And I know that they have the big entrance exam. So I was going to start studying for that. And I was talking to her and she’s like, well, I’m going to stay in L.A.. And I was like, oh, well, I maybe I want to stay in L.A. more than I want to.
00:27:34:20 – 00:27:52:01
Unknown
I maybe I want to be with you more than I want to be with the State Department. Right. And so it kind of changed it. But I wasn’t motivated to look for jobs like, I’m in the second semester of my senior year. And she’s like, have you interviewed anywhere? And I’m like, we’re supposed to do that now? Like, that’s that’s what we were supposed to get started with.
00:27:52:06 – 00:28:13:02
Unknown
That’s, and I think because my mom didn’t have a traditional college experience, I think there wasn’t a lot of there wasn’t a lot of like, hey, now is when you should be interning and now is when you should be doing this. I was just kind of like, do do do do do like meeting people, making relationships, but not looking for jobs.
00:28:13:04 – 00:28:36:04
Unknown
But I, I was like, yeah, I probably should start looking for a job. So I started interviewing, found a company that I, you know, I enjoyed and it’s it was called Score Educational Centers. It was Kaplan’s K through 12. Stauffer. Right. Tutoring. And it was computer based. it has since shut down. And that’s part of my story.
00:28:36:04 – 00:29:04:14
Unknown
But, they ran educational centers. And so ten days after graduation, I started working there, and I was like, this is cool. It’s very like enterprise Rent-A-Car the way they had it designed, where they pay you almost nothing to start, but you have a ton of opportunity for advancement if you hustle and grind. And that was and I was like, yeah, let’s do this, this, this is this fits somewhere in all of this.
00:29:04:14 – 00:29:32:07
Unknown
Through playing sports and always being younger, I developed a competitiveness. Just a like I’m not going I’m not going to lose. It wasn’t a I have to win. It wasn’t like a Michael Jordan sociopathic. Like, if I’m not the winner, I quit. It was very much I’m going to keep up with these guys no matter the cost. There’s never I’m never not going to be a part of the team.
00:29:32:07 – 00:29:52:18
Unknown
I’m never going to get outworked. And so there’s a competitiveness that developed in me. And so in this company, competitiveness was an asset. It was a lot of former college athletes. It was a lot of folks who were driven. And I wouldn’t have described myself as driven, and I still would, and I would describe myself as competitive.
00:29:52:19 – 00:30:14:17
Unknown
And so we kind of get in this thing and I’m like, well, I’m going to do better than you, but not because I have anything against you, but I’m just like, I would like to be good at this, and I would like the praise as a people pleaser. This was a great you know, I always worked well for coaches and all that stuff because of the social personality piece.
00:30:14:18 – 00:30:39:03
Unknown
And so I’m in this company and I’m like, oh, this must be what I’m good at. I’m always like falling into things. There hasn’t been a lot of, this is the goal. I’m going to go get it. It’s been a lot of like, I guess I’m good at this. Maybe I should keep doing this. And so I kind of work through the company and do my thing, and I become a region manager at a really young age and do really well for myself there.
00:30:39:05 – 00:31:07:01
Unknown
And eventually they kind of give me the opportunity to keep my job or they’re downsizing and, yeah, keep my job or take a generous severance package because of the downsizing. And the writing was on the wall to me, knowing more about the business model and what was happening in the economy. This is 2007, 2008, and I’m going, okay, the writing is on the wall.
00:31:07:01 – 00:31:33:11
Unknown
And then this goes to the pragmatism. My dad, aka a great uncle. I was like, what should I do? Should I take the money? Should I stay and and he was like, if you don’t love the job, you always take free money. If it’s not the thing that you’re going to do for the rest of your life, you always take free money because you don’t get free money.
00:31:33:13 – 00:31:57:19
Unknown
That’s not something that just people do. And I’m like, and I would have been 25, 26, and just work experience in one company, just like super achiever didn’t know anything about how the world really worked. And he’s just like, if they give you free money, take it. at that moment, my whole thing was I thought I was going to be a CEO.
00:31:57:19 – 00:32:19:01
Unknown
I’m like, I’m good at this business thing. This is business. I should continue doing this. let’s keep going with business. And that was kind of the design. We moved from Southern California to San Antonio, Texas, which is where I’m at now. for a lot of reasons. We wanted to be able to buy a house, being one of them because really, you know, all that stuff.
00:32:19:03 – 00:32:36:16
Unknown
And I ended up at a series of jobs that I was always connected to church circles and, and actually, always I, I didn’t grow up in the church, but eventually in high school, I went to youth group and went for all the wrong reasons. Girls and free pizza. that was the. And you get to stay out late on it too.
00:32:36:18 – 00:33:02:16
Unknown
Yeah, right. It’s great marketing pitch, but you get to stay out late on a Tuesday night and meet girls from other high schools. Like, that’s like perfect. That’s like the best thing possible. So it goes back to the narrative of just like falling into something. Right. But I got serious about it eventually. And, so I come to this period of unemployment and if you hear me talk about it, it sounds like I was unemployed for six years.
00:33:02:18 – 00:33:27:18
Unknown
it was it was six months. Okay. but it it was a difficult six months. And I was kind of in a. Okay, I had just always been kind of backing into things and falling into things and talking to my wife. And she was pregnant, of course, with our first son and our first child, who was a son, not like our first son, as though there was a daughter that didn’t matter in there.
00:33:27:18 – 00:33:52:09
Unknown
Right. of the, the, and she was just like, I don’t want you to just get a job. Like, I really want you to do something that you’ve loved doing something that you’re passionate about, something that gives you purpose, and you get a chance to reset, what this would have been in 2011. So I would have been about 28, 29.
00:33:52:11 – 00:34:19:10
Unknown
this gives you a chance to reset when most people are just starting to figure it out. So I already had, like practically a career under my belt and felt like, oh, and it’s like, okay, now I get a chance to reset. And so there were two part time jobs at the church that I was going to, and I what felt to me like boldly asked the person like, hey, do you think I could do both of these part time jobs together and make it a full time thing?
00:34:19:12 – 00:34:38:05
Unknown
And that is my that is how I got into church work. And one of the, you know, they weren’t big roles. One of them was the assistant to the creative pastor, and the other was helping out with our, less aggressive service, our service that was a little more traditional. And so that’s how I got into to church work.
00:34:38:07 – 00:35:20:01
Unknown
That’s amazing. That is really amazing. It’s, it’s a different kind of story. It’s not your traditional career. It’s not your traditional. I was born to become a pastor story. it’s not traditional. Yeah, and, you know, when I do speak with people, it’s more it’s rarer to to hear about people going down a prescribed path. It’s it’s more common for people to kind of go very, linearly, to find where they’re ultimately going.
00:35:20:03 – 00:35:55:11
Unknown
and so I guess it’s kind of like the next arc that I wanted to ask you about is, you know, you have children. you know, we were talking about how, you send them to school, and so I’m curious, like, based on your journey, your education journey, and how you found, your niche or your calling, I’m wondering, how are you doing things similarly to what your mom did or what your parents did or your caregivers did?
00:35:55:13 – 00:36:19:23
Unknown
And what are you doing differently? Know. Great question. one of the things that we’re keeping that our and my wife and I are kind of combining styles, right? Because her parents, if she was on the podcast, she would be a great guest on the podcast. By the way, as an educator who has an education experience, but her parents were much more achievement oriented.
00:36:20:01 – 00:36:40:08
Unknown
And she has an older brother who was, very academically inclined, and she was always more of the theater person. And so they were a little bit different. But she was exceptional academically, I think, ended up very high achievement culture. And so I would be curious what she would say if you asked her where she felt like she fit in the spectrum.
00:36:40:10 – 00:36:58:17
Unknown
But, you know, she went to school in a really high achieving place with a bunch of high achieving people and in a, you know, in a very upper class neighborhood. And so it was it was a different story for her. So all that to say, she has this high achievement that she’s coming from that maybe wasn’t always helpful at times.
00:36:58:17 – 00:37:24:05
Unknown
That didn’t always account for the individuality of what a person wanted to do. and where they were, they were skilled. Right. And so she’s got a family of engineers and she’s the theater kid. that’s kind of the the setup. But, so I think in our combination, we aren’t super focused on achievement. We don’t, discipline kids for bad grades.
00:37:24:07 – 00:37:55:13
Unknown
We don’t, get upset. We, you know, now you have access to, like, look at their grades all the time, which is crazy. but we’ve really tried to put more on their own or show, in relation to that. And so there’s no consequence for a 60 or 70, but we have them do every assignment. Right. And so that’s something that we’ve kept that both of our parents valued, that we both value of like you do, every assignment, just do your best.
00:37:55:15 – 00:38:18:08
Unknown
Just show your effort. And we were very confident that our kids are there. I mean, our kids are really smart. They just are. And most you know, I think it comes from her, but we are both, we have both, been in high achievement circles at this point. Right? We’ve both gone to college. I’ve gotten a graduate degree.
00:38:18:10 – 00:38:39:23
Unknown
She’s an educator. So we’re we’re bringing something to the table. And our kids have embraced a lot of that. They’re very verbal. We talk a lot at home. There’s a lot of communication. And so they’ve always, you know, they’ve they’ve always had that peace. But we’ve really tried to instill the do every assignment and ultimately over time as you get older, right.
00:38:39:23 – 00:39:03:21
Unknown
We treat our eight year old a little differently than our 12 year old. But it’s it’s up to you. And if you have zeros you can’t play video games this weekend until you get your assignments done. That’s just what it is. And so we’ve kept that do everything. And when they start to when he starts to question like this is pointless, when am I going to use this in the real world or whatever?
00:39:03:23 – 00:39:30:13
Unknown
You can always make a real world connection to some things, but sometimes we don’t make the real world connection. Sometimes we do the you are always going to have to do work that you don’t see the point of and that you don’t like. Yeah, it’s great to develop the muscle of being able to do that without complaining. and, and, and doing it right and not half assed doing it.
00:39:30:15 – 00:39:58:02
Unknown
and so that in and of itself is a skill. You’re always going to have a boss that maybe you don’t like and maybe doesn’t like you. that’s going to happen. And so what do you do when that happens? And so we do try to teach resilience. And it really helps to have an educator for a life who understands the trends and understands what kids need and understands where we as parents can partner with teachers to help them.
00:39:58:04 – 00:40:34:05
Unknown
And so the majority of our conversations with teachers have almost never been academic. we’ve maybe talked about a couple things here and there. but it’s always been emotional, social. It’s always been about that. And, and that’s, because the kids have never had problems academically. Really. our youngest had some academic challenges, until he got his tonsils out, when he was young, which, because he wasn’t sleeping well, he was like Darth Vader at night.
00:40:34:07 – 00:40:57:20
Unknown
But we finally got his tonsils and adenoids out, and he started sleeping better. And all of a sudden, he just grew academically. He grew physically, he grew. It just changed something, in what he was doing. And so we were we’ve been concerned about him at times, but it turns out that he’s just a little bit of he won’t try until he has to.
00:40:57:22 – 00:41:22:17
Unknown
And this has sort. So this is this had been his story. And we’ve tried to change the narrative to remind him that he’s resilient because words do make worlds. And so for a long time we called him a sandbag or of you’re sandbagging, stop sandbagging. And which is just his way of doing the least. And I’ll tell a funny story, and then I’ll tell why we were wrong as parents were doing that.
00:41:22:17 – 00:41:44:01
Unknown
But we went to his, like, developmental thing and we’re like, I don’t know that he’s going to be able to walk. Like, I don’t know that he’s going to hit this developmental mark because he wasn’t really doing it around the house. We show up to the doctor. This boy walks back and forth across the room. No problem, no issues, no wobble.
00:41:44:03 – 00:42:09:00
Unknown
And we’re like, you don’t do that at all. And that had been kind of the story of like the sand bagger, right, of the kid that is just going to do the least. But then we realized that maybe we were speaking that into him versus that’s how he was. and maybe it’s a combination of both. Like, maybe there’s something about him that’s just he’s the little brother.
00:42:09:02 – 00:42:28:19
Unknown
And so Big Brother is a little more Type-A. and, like, we’ll do things for him if he shows the littlest bit of helplessness, Big Brother will be like, fine, I’ll do it. that kind of thing. But we realized that we were kind of shaping him by being like your sandbag or your sandbag or that’s the message that he’s getting and it’s reinforcing the negative.
00:42:28:21 – 00:42:52:07
Unknown
And so thanks to my wife, who was fantastic, we were like, let’s change the narrative. Let’s, let’s not say that. Let’s start to say things like, Henry, we know that you can do this now. We know that you’re capable and you don’t have to wait until the last minute. What if what if we did right and just speaking life into, hey, you are really smart and you are capable of doing these things and you’re resilient.
00:42:52:09 – 00:43:18:13
Unknown
If you don’t know how to do this thing, you can figure it out. You’re really smart. Your brother doesn’t have to do it for you. And speaking those words has changed. I think it’s changing. I won’t say it’s changing his. It’s really a nature nurture thing. There is a part of him that is always more inclined to wait until the last minute, until he has to do something.
00:43:18:15 – 00:43:51:07
Unknown
There’s something in him that’s like, oh, you don’t like, way to walk. Like, let me just wait till the doctor’s appointment. There’s all. There’s something in him that’s like that. But he he is not. That’s not his fate. That’s not something he has to be in every area of his life. And, you know, we do the same thing with our older, our older, son who, you know, he’s very high achieving, very academically oriented, a little more logical, a little more rational, a little less.
00:43:51:09 – 00:44:20:22
Unknown
It’s almost like a reverse situation of my wife, to some degree, in that we’re a family of people, people and theater teachers and pastors and communicators, and he’s more engineering sciency, technical minded. And so it’s kind of a flip. And so we’ve had to not go, oh, well, he’s the one that’s logical and rational. And he doesn’t get people like we’ve we’ve had to walk that back to be like, no, you’re actually like really understanding of people and really thoughtful.
00:44:20:22 – 00:44:42:20
Unknown
And you have really good instincts. to do that. It’s just learning how to follow those and learning how to he can be a little bit of a know it all, which tends to rub teachers the wrong way. I don’t know, like when you have a student that corrects you, you automatically are just like, yeah, but I don’t like that.
00:44:42:22 – 00:45:14:08
Unknown
And so we’ve had to teach him that. It’s not just pure academics. Your grades are not just pure. What you do on a some and most teachers. Let me shout out to teachers. We love teachers. Teachers grade your assignments fairly. They’re not like knocking him off points for anything, but part of your school experience is going to be shaped by how helpful and kind and I won’t say obedient, but, well, obedient in the classroom.
00:45:14:08 – 00:45:41:07
Unknown
Like, you got to go with the stuff. Like, you can’t just always be like, well, actually, like you kind of got a role with this, and he can’t always be the one that talks. And so I’ve got totally off track. So, no, very much of. I’m so sorry. No. Oh, sorry. Yeah, but we’ve tried to I think, we’ve kept the, like, the rigor on.
00:45:41:07 – 00:46:10:12
Unknown
Just do your assignments, just do the work, do the work, do the work. I think some of the things that we’ve learned are that our parent that my parents maybe didn’t know and that her parents may be over concentrated on of like, these are really brilliant, smart kids. They will find their way. But they do need resilience. They do need the ability to have some ownership over academics on their own.
00:46:10:12 – 00:46:32:21
Unknown
And the earlier that they’re challenged, the earlier they learn that, the better that they will do. Because as you know, I’m not telling you anything. Project management is a part of academics, and you could be the smartest person in the world. But if you wait until the last minute, me to do the project, it’s going to be hard and it’s not going to be as good.
00:46:32:23 – 00:46:53:21
Unknown
It just isn’t. And we continue to try to have to take our hands off our our 12 year old of going, I can’t make him do this right now. I could, but where I’m not going to be there in college. Yeah, I’m not going to be there at his first job. Like we would really like him to develop these skills on his own.
00:46:53:21 – 00:47:15:08
Unknown
And same thing with the with our little dude when he’s doing the things that make you want to just intervene for him, and go, okay, this is how you do it. we have to fight the ability to go. I think you know how to do this. I, I’m confident you can figure this out. And allowing him to do that.
00:47:15:13 – 00:47:57:05
Unknown
You know what that reminds me of is, there’s a book by Adam Grant, the, originals. And in that book, he talks about, like, how a really big, clue or, not a clue. I forget what it is, but essentially, like, people who are procrastinators like, that is one of the signs that that you’re an original, that you’re creative, you know, and, in that book, he kind of talks about, like, people who delay, something to like the very last minute, have a lot of like, innovation.
00:47:57:05 – 00:48:39:12
Unknown
And, and so when you talk about like that engineering type, the logical, you know, there’s probably a bit of that creativity there too. so, yeah. And like what you said about like, people finding their way, I think that’s absolutely true, right? That we can’t help but make it because we have to survive. and kind of like looking at your life and like how you said you sort of just fell into things, and you sort of figured it out as you went, and you were like, oh, if I stuck with this long enough, you know, I actually enjoy this.
00:48:39:12 – 00:49:18:13
Unknown
I’m pretty good at this. Let me just put in more time, you know, and I think, like, naturally as people that when we have that perspective and look back reflectively on our lives, it’s true that we probably fell into our careers more than having engineered them. and so I’m just wondering, for you, like, knowing how you went from being good at social studies and studying international relations and, having, you know, be com a pastor and all that.
00:49:18:13 – 00:49:48:02
Unknown
Like, if you look at the education system, do you wish that anything could have been done a little bit differently or organized a little bit differently in a way for you to have maybe found your calling a bit sooner or a bit easier, or with more support? That’s a great question. the it’s easy to critique. So let me start with this.
00:49:48:07 – 00:50:17:18
Unknown
It’s easy to critique a system that’s made to educate every single American child, no matter where they come from and their background of like, it’s got to be so broad. It just has to. And because it’s for everyone and we’re seeing this with the rise of charter schools in our area that aren’t for everyone who can refuse service to kids and kids who leave public school, and then they come back and they go, oh, they didn’t actually have special education, or they didn’t actually have this, or my child was too disruptive.
00:50:17:18 – 00:50:40:19
Unknown
And and so let me give a big shout out to the broadness of American education that allows everyone to get educated. no matter your, you know, your race or ethnicity, your background or your capacity, you can get educated. It’s awesome. and so understanding the broadness, and understanding that I can’t change that, I would say there’s very much still a factory mindset.
00:50:40:19 – 00:51:06:08
Unknown
It feels like that we’re all going to do the same thing, right? That we’re all kind of working towards this, you know, and I, you know, knowing a little bit more just of observing and listening to my wife about the history of education of like, you know, how it was done and what it was done for, and kind of the meta story of going, well, we were kind of all going to be factory workers when this system started, right?
00:51:06:08 – 00:51:32:21
Unknown
Or we were going to work on the farm in some places. But then the industrial age happened and, you know, it all kind of changed how we do that. So, I think it would have been helpful for me to have more conversations with teachers about what they saw in me. and what the, and going a little deeper.
00:51:32:21 – 00:51:54:11
Unknown
And so I always had, I say I had many great teachers, many teachers, but it felt like there was a clear barrier where I always had a sense. I don’t think I’ve ever talked about this before, but I’ve always had a sense that it felt like they wanted to tell me more, or I could have gotten closer with them.
00:51:54:12 – 00:52:18:06
Unknown
But the system is not designed for that, for obvious safety reasons. And so not critiquing that. but I do wish that I could have had some more in-depth conversations with teachers who could have helped me. it’s almost like a Polaroid. It feels like sometimes finding your direction in life of you take the picture and it develops over time and it gets clearer.
00:52:18:08 – 00:52:47:01
Unknown
I think I could have gotten more clarity over what I was really good at and what I was kind of made to do. if I had some of those interactions earlier. And, so that’s kind of what I would say, because, you know, you get your report card, you get your, parent teacher conference where they talk to your parents, but maybe, student teacher conference, where I could have talked to folks individually.
00:52:47:01 – 00:53:07:01
Unknown
They could have just said man charm. Like, I don’t think you’re going to do I don’t know, I don’t think you’re going to do geometry. I don’t think you’re going to grow up to be an engineer. But this is what I see in you, and this is what I’ve appreciated about what you do. So maybe some more individual feedback versus more of the standard.
00:53:07:06 – 00:53:40:21
Unknown
And I say that understanding the broadness of what education is, so that I think that would be helpful because I do think in the modern economy, looking at what things are now, there isn’t a standard career path like, I’m a millennial, and so I’m in this bridge generation where probably the I’m an elder millennial, too. And so that means I’m, my wife and I sometimes say, we feel like we got the last helicopter out of Vietnam because we’re like, we could actually buy a house.
00:53:40:21 – 00:54:05:06
Unknown
We could actually, like, we could actually do a lot of these things. That felt very American dream. Standard template for the people before us, that people after us aren’t getting. And so we come from, even even though my family was more blue collar, her family was more white collar. You work at the same place, you get a pension and a watch, and you do like that was the career path.
00:54:05:06 – 00:54:37:17
Unknown
That was the thing. And you get a, you know, if you do well for yourself, maybe you buy a vacation, you have a vacation house on a boat, like, that’s like the the, the, like, white picket fence American dream. And we’re the pivot on that. And the education system seemed to work pretty well for that. And now so much of people thriving, not just economically thriving, not getting rich, but thriving in life and feeling a sense of purpose, there really has to be some individual understanding of what you’re good at.
00:54:37:17 – 00:55:02:15
Unknown
And it seems like everything and we’re moving from command and control, leadership models to different leadership models in the workplace. And so you need to know your strengths. You need to know what you’re not good at. And so there has to be this for lack of a better term, emotional intelligence that will benefit you moving forward. That is not really in the way that we do school in, in all things.
00:55:02:15 – 00:55:30:09
Unknown
So I if I had to give that critique, I’d say it’s the individual feedback. And that has to do with the emotional intelligence. Yeah, absolutely. And I was listening to a snippet, of a guest that you spoke with about how, like the churches are going to be changing in the future about like the digital platforms coming in to replacing more of like the physical interaction.
00:55:30:11 – 00:56:30:16
Unknown
and also, you know, I you had written about like one existing challenge that you, that interests you most, is about digital health, about blending in-person and online community. And so I guess, like my sort of last sort of questions to you is like knowing that we live in this scary era of, social media being a threat and digital communities and hacking and how, like now hackers are targeting public schools and, just so much threat, about digital communities and, you know, that being your, your turf of like community of organizing, of connecting with people, how do we do that?
00:56:30:18 – 00:57:06:12
Unknown
safely and enjoyably, in a way that, you know, unites us rather than separates and divides and, you know, creates more hate? Yeah. Great question. I love that question. I think we’re going to look back, the proliferation of digital media and social media, like we saw cocaine in the late 1800s and early 1900s. my eight year old asked me about coke changes, like how many formulas we were talking about coke.
00:57:06:12 – 00:57:22:00
Unknown
I forget how we were talking about Coke. And there was new Coke at some point, because we watched something that had new Coke in it, and we had to explain they changed their formula at some point, but then they changed back to Coca-Cola classic, and I was like, well. But there was also a change when they took cocaine out of coke and they were like, what?
00:57:22:00 – 00:57:41:06
Unknown
My 12 year old in my air? And I’m like, well, they thought it had a lot of health benefits and it ended up maybe not being great for people. Right. And so I think we are going full out with digital, and I think we’re going to find from a, I hope I should say it, the cocaine was physical.
00:57:41:06 – 00:58:11:03
Unknown
And so I think we are better at addressing physical problems than we are emotional problems, as, as a society. And so I think we’re going to find something similar of in 100 years. People are being like, you mean they didn’t regulate X, Y or Z or or the practice was just to give kids iPads, and it’s going to seem like we were smoking with no car seats, like smoking while pregnant and have just kids, like on our lap in the car.
00:58:11:05 – 00:58:34:17
Unknown
When you look back, you go, how could we have done that? It’s so unsafe. And I think it’s going to be similar. And so I don’t want to condemn any parent because we’re having our kids use devices like it’s it’s we are not treating it as a bubble that you can isolate kids from, because I think that’s going to hold them back.
00:58:34:19 – 00:58:54:08
Unknown
quick story. When I was an I was an RA in college. Oh, and the most sheltered kids would come and flame out. Yeah, they would come and there was no regulation. It was all self-regulation. And so you would come and you’d party. And then after a semester, you wouldn’t know what to do, and you’d go home. Yeah.
00:58:54:10 – 00:59:15:17
Unknown
or and so I at some point your kids are going to get their hands on a phone that’s not optional. It’s, what my former boss would call table stakes. You you have to have digital communication as part of the society. It’s table stakes. You you don’t get to operate. And we read these stories, and it makes me so mad.
00:59:15:20 – 00:59:32:22
Unknown
We read these stories about CEOs that go, oh, I don’t have a phone. Yeah, you’re a billionaire, bro. You have people that have phones. you don’t have to have a phone. As long as you can hire people to have a phone, you don’t have to have a phone. But if you work at a at an office job, you have to have a phone, right?
00:59:33:00 – 00:59:55:22
Unknown
You just do. And there’s going to be a smart component to it. You can’t have a flip phone every there is a movement among pastors because mostly because of porn, I think. But that’s a whole other conversation to move to flip phones and all of those guys have gone back to smartphones because you you can’t you taxed like such a big part of my ability to pass through people and care for people.
00:59:55:22 – 01:00:20:08
Unknown
Souls come from text message conversations throughout the day because you check in with you. I just got a text this morning. Okay, we’ve been praying for this guy who’s been taking this exam and he’s so worried about it. And he’s struggled with it and he hasn’t been able to get over the hump. And he texted me this morning, he’s like, Pastor John, I passed and he sent me a picture of the score right?
01:00:20:10 – 01:00:47:14
Unknown
And I was like, yes, dude, this is awesome. And we celebrated. If I had a flip phone, I wouldn’t get that because he wouldn’t call me. That’s not that’s not a call. That’s a text, especially when you’re dealing with younger people. And so digital, social media and digital are table stakes for this generation. And so but how do we do that without eroding our own soul?
01:00:47:16 – 01:01:13:16
Unknown
Because there is something about the Me ification of this device that’s just like, this is a little me machine, and it’s all of my things. It’s all of the stuff I want. It’s all of it’s and it narrows down on an algorithm. And as another friend, Mary Sharp, Charlotte Lee and I were talking, the algorithm is not your friend, the algorithm is not your friend.
01:01:13:18 – 01:01:46:20
Unknown
And so it’s narrowing down to my preferences and my prejudices and what I hate and what I love and that claims a piece of your soul. And so the tension that I live in is going digital is the most helpful thing for for maintaining community and helping people connect. And it is also the worst thing. And it’s really hard to hold that tension because I also tell people, well, it’s it’s like the telephone.
01:01:46:20 – 01:02:12:15
Unknown
The telephone is neither bad or good. It’s how you use it. And it’s we can utilize these things, but there’s nothing that can replace in person connection community to the place that you are in, the place that you live. I think we’ve tried to transcend place a little bit and we can transcend place. My kids. Okay. I was explaining to my kids that long distance calls used to cost money.
01:02:12:15 – 01:02:32:21
Unknown
Oh, yeah, I like like I never made it. I was terrified of making a long distance call when I was a kid, because I thought they’d end up with a phone bill of $1 million. It’s just like. And even when we first got cell phones, it was like, here’s your here’s your area where you can call and otherwise it’s us.
01:02:32:21 – 01:03:05:13
Unknown
And then only, you know, from free nights and weekends, like all these kinds of limitations that we used to have that kept us limited to place, we’ve transcended a lot of the place things, but your place matters. Where you are matters. Your community matters. And the erosion of that has hurt us at a deep soul level. I don’t think you have to be religious or even a believer in a higher power at all to understand there is something that transcends our physical body and our emotions.
01:03:05:13 – 01:03:28:03
Unknown
There’s something. There’s this essence of us that’s that’s a little more than that. And that when I say soul, that’s what I’m talking about. The essence of us, that’s that’s more than our emotions and more than our brain chemistry, and more than our physical body. And so that gets harmed when we’re trafficking and only digital, but we’re letting these bad messages come in.
01:03:28:03 – 01:03:53:05
Unknown
But we’re also talking to our friends. And so, like, Fortnite is a scourge upon a whole generation. But I’m also like, I get why you would why you play, and it’s how you connect with your friends. For my 12 year old, it’s how he it’s how he connects with his friends. I used to go outside and we shoot hoops, but for a lot of this generation, they don’t live by each other.
01:03:53:08 – 01:04:14:08
Unknown
And and and we as parents and this is on us. We live such disconnected lives from our community that they don’t just get together after school. We go to our little houses. We go to our individual lives. And so how can kids connect with one another? They have this desire to connect. But if you don’t have any 12 year olds on your block that you like, you can’t just go outside.
01:04:14:08 – 01:04:31:08
Unknown
We it didn’t matter if we liked our friends where we grew up. We just went outside and you played and you just had to deal with it because there was no thought of. I’ll go home and play Nintendo with my friend that lives in new Jersey, right? That you couldn’t do that. You can call them, you like it, you just couldn’t do that.
01:04:31:08 – 01:04:54:12
Unknown
But so now we live these individual lives that parents dictate. And so, can I. Okay. This will be my last thing. I’ve been talking for too long. I’m so sorry. Oh, I see all these condemnations of smartphones and all these people that are just like, this is ruining our children. And this is why the self-harm rates are up, and this is why I blah, blah, blah, and we need to get our kids off the phone.
01:04:54:12 – 01:05:18:08
Unknown
And it’s like, start with you then, buddy. Don’t don’t start with your ten year old. You get off your phone because they’re watching us. But I guarantee you it’s like, okay, did you have a friend growing up that didn’t have a TV in their house? Probably. But like those weird non TV kids, this is what I’m getting towards.
01:05:18:10 – 01:05:56:06
Unknown
They didn’t watch TV and it was weird, but they weren’t like super in the watching TV. They were just kind of like, yeah, TV’s not really a big deal because their parents didn’t watch TV right. And so you’re you are addicted to your smartphone. So your kid is addicted to his smartphone and his iPad, and they’re watching you when you’re at their baseball game and you’re texting, they’re watching you when you’re home at night and you’re watching even when you’re doing dinner table time and they’re seeing you email your boss, they’re watching you, you’re normalizing what the behavior is.
01:05:56:06 – 01:06:20:09
Unknown
And so I’ve seen a lot of pushes for restrict being internet and digital access to kids. And I go, what makes you think it’s good for you? What makes you think this is good for anybody? Because I do think it impacts us at a soul level. And so any digital changes we try to have with our kids, any boundaries we put on, we try to apply to ourselves first.
01:06:20:11 – 01:06:44:00
Unknown
And because they’re going to watch how we do it, that that is a I could go back in time 10,000 years. I don’t I’m not good with like biology and science and anthropology. I’m assuming they were humans 10,000 years ago. I can go back in time. 10,000 years. And the wisest woman in the village would be like kids do what you want.
01:06:44:04 – 01:07:08:17
Unknown
They. They watch what you do. They don’t do what you say. Yeah, that that is eternal. That is wisdom. That’s not just knowledge, that’s eternal wisdom and the truth of having children. And so if we want to regulate digital, we have to start with ourselves and we have to make decisions. And you can’t crash diet, you can’t fast and then binge and purge digital.
01:07:08:18 – 01:07:31:21
Unknown
Like you have to figure out a way that fits in your life. That’s not that doesn’t have a, a, disintegrating effect that disintegrates our parts and who we are. Like, you have to figure it out on your own and then apply that with your family, your people, your house, whatever that looks like. Thank you so much for listening.
01:07:31:21 – 01:07:39:00
Unknown
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