Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Eden, an art ethnologist, educator, and artist—about her journey of finding her voice. We talk about her earliest memories of being a “difficult student” to changing her ways after seeing what impact that had on her teachers. We also discuss how her early introduction and experimentation with art helped her process her lived experiences, and how that led to her pursuing the career that she did. I ask her what she thinks we can learn from teaching our children to find their own perspectives and opinions, and I’m certain you’ll benefit from hearing her response. I’d like to warn and mention that this conversation contains potentially triggering content including mentions of abuse. That prefaced, here is our edited conversation.
Auto-generated Transcript
00:00:03:09 – 00:00:26:06
Rée
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:26:08 – 00:00:47:18
Rée
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, had not received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:47:20 – 00:01:11:04
Rée
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers, with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Eden, an art ethnologist, educator and artist, about her journey of finding her voice.
00:01:11:06 – 00:01:42:06
Rée
We talk about her earliest memories of being a quote unquote difficult student, to changing her ways after seeing what impact that had on her teachers. We also discussed how her early introduction and experimentation with art helped her process her lived experiences, and how that led to her pursuing the career that she did. I ask her what she thinks we can learn from teaching our children to find their own perspectives and opinions, and I’m certain you’ll benefit from hearing her response.
00:01:42:08 – 00:01:56:20
Rée
I’d like to warn and mention that this conversation does contain potentially triggering content, including mentions of abuse that prefaced. Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:56:22 – 00:02:49:12
Eden
When I was growing up, I was a timid child, often outspoken. If I felt I was being mistreated. So I was considered not to be a respectful child. I was not considered the best student behavior wise. However, academically, I sailed through all the work. I think I was probably bored. I was needy for attention. So, I often did things to, distract the lessons to, put the teachers in the, you know, a tizzy.
00:02:49:14 – 00:02:52:03
Eden
I was a disruptor.
00:02:52:05 – 00:03:19:05
Rée
Wow. I don’t think I would have expected that answer of you. Wait, can you tell me a little bit more like, like that board part, and then the behavior part, the. And the timidity, like, where do you think that came from? Was that also inside the home or did that was that like, brought out in, in school?
00:03:19:06 – 00:03:52:07
Eden
So, because I’m a teacher today, I know that, you know, I’ve worked with children from pre-K level all the way up to 12th grade. Right. And I have been able to identify when students behave in a manner in a certain manner. It’s indicative of, you know, home life. Yeah. And so there was instability that I experienced. Right.
00:03:52:09 – 00:04:23:18
Eden
So I was dealing with, you know, things that children should not be exposed to. And what’s unique about me is I have a very long memory. I can remember things since I was two years old. Oh my gosh. So, all of those experiences, you know, at home, you stuck with me, and I brought it into the school.
00:04:23:20 – 00:04:52:23
Eden
And I think that some of my teachers were not able to identify, like, you know, we get training now to identify certain things to indicate a child is in crisis. But during that time, you know, I don’t think that teachers were getting that type of professional development to prepare and recognize that, they were trying to get through their lessons.
00:04:52:23 – 00:05:12:22
Eden
And here I am raising hell. So, you know, there were a lot of things that I was experiencing. You know, that, you know, regarding abuse that were not being addressed. And so I acted out.
00:05:13:00 – 00:05:48:22
Rée
Yeah. No, that’s really challenging. And, you know, I think, I’m kind of curious, like what some of those kinds of things that you were exposed, you were exposed to were. And you don’t have to share more than you’re comfortable sharing, but I, I, I’m curious about this question, particularly because several people on this podcast, previously have shared a little bit about some of the things that they were witnessing, in their neighborhoods, in their homes.
00:05:49:00 – 00:06:13:02
Rée
And they didn’t really have an outlet to process that information. Right. And, like, the adults weren’t helping them make sense of what was happening, and then they would go to school. That’s kind of like, removed from the neighborhood and the kids from other neighborhoods. They didn’t they couldn’t relate to what was happening to, you know, these people.
00:06:13:04 – 00:06:50:05
Rée
And so even the teachers and, you know, like we both know, like in public schools, we don’t talk about our lived experiences, like, our active daily life at home. Like, even talking about politics or talking about anything really is kind of taboo or looked down upon. So I’m kind of curious, like, were you able to process your lived experiences with the adults around you in a safe place, whether it was like in a church or like, you know, like a center or like, you know, anywhere?
00:06:50:07 – 00:07:28:02
Eden
Absolutely not. So I wasn’t raised in a church. And I was not among people that I trusted. You know, there were indications that they were not in, the mindset to protect me or to nurture healing. So I was molested when I think a baby started maybe around maybe 4 or 5, and I, you know, I was victimized until I was 16.
00:07:28:04 – 00:08:03:17
Eden
So throughout that time and, you know, there there were situations where, I saw things. I was exposed to things that I just held in because it had been normalized. Right? I didn’t say, oh, this person’s, you know, doing this or that. I wasn’t honest about it. And so, because there were signs that that would not be, we, you know, addressed in a way that I would feel safe moving forward.
00:08:03:19 – 00:08:59:08
Eden
Right. So, that’s what I was dealing with. I never addressed it until, what, 2015? You know, when I first started my first session with therapy and then began to unpack all of those experiences and how they ultimately affected every relationship, every, friendship. My experiences communicating with people throughout school. You know how I didn’t I wasn’t able to use my voice verbatim, but just being able to, you know, perform in a way that, you know, brought attention and negative attention to me.
00:08:59:10 – 00:09:17:15
Eden
So all of my teachers throughout. Knew something was wasn’t right, but, you know, they didn’t know how to address it. No one asked the right questions. So I just sort of floated through, you know, school.
00:09:17:17 – 00:09:45:17
Rée
Yeah. Yeah. And this is such, one of those topics where, you know, I depending on, I mean, when you started going to therapy and seeing your therapist in 2015. Right? That’s only nine years ago. Wait, is it nine years? Yeah. That’s that’s only nine years ago. I mean, and I’m just wondering, like, what do you think?
00:09:45:19 – 00:10:12:18
Rée
Looking back on what you did experience and for the first time, started unpacking with your therapist, right? When you look back, what do you wish you had had or what kind of supports do you think you could have benefited from during that time when you were experiencing the things that you shouldn’t have been experiencing?
00:10:12:20 – 00:10:46:00
Eden
So not addressing the actual abuse, but I really wish I had more of an artistic outlet when I was younger. Right. That wasn’t explored. So if I was able to explore artistically because I think that was one of the ways that I was able to address it for me, it was an outlet I explored when I was in high school.
00:10:46:02 – 00:11:21:19
Eden
I was writing poetry by the 10th grade. I met a teacher. Her name was this Good Day, Judy Buffet, and she inspired me. Right. And Mr. Day was retiring. I think it year she retired mid-year. However, you know, we became friends, and I would write her poetry. Didn’t matter if she was traveling Europe because she was always traveling.
00:11:21:21 – 00:11:46:04
Eden
But she always wrote me back. And so we would just write each other, and when I would send her a poem, she would send it back, critiqued. Look, you know, like that. So she was my 10th grade English teacher. And so writing really helped. So I knew that writing was an outlet for me. So I kept a journal.
00:11:46:06 – 00:12:21:18
Eden
And so that’s where I started to put some of what I was dealing with. There. Art, visual art was an outlet for me. However, I didn’t quite understand how to use it in that way because or artistically, during that time, the art programs in my high school were not as developed. It just seemed, in comparison to what I do and what is expected.
00:12:21:20 – 00:12:54:04
Eden
It just seemed so, outdated. Right. The printer copied color, did connect the dots. You know, let’s use some yarn. You know, it just didn’t. I didn’t learn fine art, and that’s what I needed. And so another thing was thinking. I didn’t realize how important it was to me until I turned 40. I’m 50 now. When I turned 40.
00:12:54:04 – 00:13:27:13
Eden
Is this probably the first real time that I explored it? And I realized what it did to me internally. And so it dawned on me. I’m like, wait a minute. If I had had this when I was much younger, it would have developed my voice to speak up more. Right. And so that’s that’s what I think. You know, I’m artistic and I use all of those things.
00:13:27:14 – 00:13:42:13
Eden
Music, visual art and writing. And that’s what, what what’s helping to heal me. In addition to the years of therapy that to this.
00:13:42:15 – 00:14:05:20
Rée
Yeah. No, that’s really that’s a really brilliant answer. And I am trying to connect the dots of what I already know about you. And I’m really actually surprised because we’ve known each other for more than ten years now, actually. I think we’re going, I don’t know. Has it been like.
00:14:06:01 – 00:14:06:12
Eden
It is.
00:14:06:13 – 00:14:08:14
Rée
Ten, 12 years or something? Yeah.
00:14:08:16 – 00:14:09:02
Eden
2000.
00:14:09:02 – 00:14:18:06
Rée
Where’s it 2014? Oh my gosh. Oh, wow. Happy anniversary. Happy ten year anniversary.
00:14:18:08 – 00:14:18:21
Eden
That’s.
00:14:18:23 – 00:14:51:04
Rée
But yeah. No, I, I met you during a, a training program, a cultural exchange kind of program, in Los Angeles. And, I remember the first question that I asked you after meeting you because you told me you were an artist. And, you sculpt, right? And I still remember, like, what was the, the first question I asked you was, oh, what’s your subject matter?
00:14:51:04 – 00:15:21:04
Rée
What do you explore? And I just remember being so impressed by the conversation that we had thereafter, not just that conversation, but every time we did kind of, connect during that entire program. I was always so impressed by your insight, by how you were using art, and how you were how it was so intertwined with your voice.
00:15:21:06 – 00:16:01:00
Rée
And I just always remembered that, and I’d never forgotten that. And so now I’m a little rambling, but I’m kind of curious. Like you said, you discovered singing when you were 40. But before that, you did like you were doing, right? You were writing. You’re writing poetry in the 10th grade. You were keeping a journal. And I’m wondering between, the time you were younger, when you said that, you know, you were kind of behaviorally, challenged, I guess, and you were acting up in class.
00:16:01:02 – 00:16:19:13
Rée
Do you think, what were you doing instead? Like, how were you communicating? That angst or that pain? If it wasn’t, like, writing or singing or visual arts, like what was taking its place when you were younger.
00:16:19:15 – 00:16:49:07
Eden
Okay, so I didn’t discover singing when I was 40. Okay. I was I was playing with it, but with myself. Just sort of keeping it to myself when I was 40 was the first time I actually presented it on the stage, in front of an audience that I did not know. I mean, well, I did do a karaoke competition when I was in college and won $50 for that.
00:16:49:11 – 00:16:52:02
Rée
Oh, that nice.
00:16:52:04 – 00:17:02:09
Eden
I didn’t look out. But. So when I was younger, when you talk about, you know, an outlet.
00:17:02:11 – 00:17:03:06
Rée
Yeah.
00:17:03:08 – 00:17:36:11
Eden
I have to say that I literally kept everything in unless I was explosive or angry. Right. So, you know, those causing disruptions, I God forgive me. I spit on a teacher. You know, she was doing a reading circle, and she had me doing something else, and I just I would walk through it and, you know, disrupt the the reading circle.
00:17:36:11 – 00:18:07:09
Eden
And, you know, she’s trying to get me back to what she wanted me to do. And, you know, and, you know, I spit, spit at her. And that’s the most egregious thing other than I thought, oh, no, there was the middle finger. And in seventh grade. So I was I was a mess. You know, so that’s what what I did.
00:18:07:11 – 00:18:16:15
Rée
Okay. I think I’m kind of getting the picture, but that’s so astonishing to me. That’s so astonishing to me.
00:18:16:17 – 00:18:34:04
Eden
When I look at all of my report cards, literally ay ay ay ay ay ay ay ay in every subject. Right. But behavior, it’s like paragraphs.
00:18:34:06 – 00:19:16:00
Rée
Wow. That’s really interesting because I often hear that people who have bad behavior or when I see, students with bad behavior, the correlation with their grades is pretty similar. And so when you say you had great grades, but you got knocked down for behavior, I’m like, oh, that’s really interesting. And so that makes me wonder, like, I wonder if it was your interpretation that maybe your behavior wasn’t comparable to to your peers, but maybe your teachers were like, oh, that’s kind of average around here.
00:19:16:02 – 00:19:16:21
Rée
No.
00:19:16:23 – 00:19:52:17
Eden
Okay. So, my second grade teacher had a nervous breakdown in during class, due to an incident with me and two other students, and she literally was shaking at her desk, and, administrators had to come in, get her, and we didn’t see her for months. And when she returned, it’s. Yeah, I was aware. Paid attention, you know that?
00:19:52:17 – 00:20:33:11
Eden
Oh, no, this is not good. And I felt really bad about it. And still to this day, feel bad about it. And, you know, she, she returned with support. So there were other adults in the room when she returned. But I knew that that was, a moment, even in my little brain at that time, that this what we did upset her to the point where it broke her for a moment.
00:20:33:13 – 00:20:47:14
Eden
Yeah. So that, you know, altered my behavior. You know, I was less. You know, mischievous.
00:20:47:16 – 00:20:50:21
Rée
Yeah. No, I think that makes sense. She was,
00:20:50:23 – 00:21:19:13
Eden
Nicest person to me. Wow. She was the nicest person to me, you know? And it’s always funny the words. Kids will always show up to school and never miss a day. And I was always the first one at the building in the morning. And, you know, on the playground. Only child out there waiting for school to start. She would be there.
00:21:19:15 – 00:21:35:19
Eden
You could see her from the classroom window. She would give me donuts. You know, she would do, like, little nice things. I treat you so nice. But you, you know, x, y, z. So. Yeah. Oh.
00:21:35:21 – 00:21:57:03
Rée
That just like, I don’t know, I felt like a, a pain in my heart. A little bit. Because, you know, when you said that, you repeated it twice. She was the nicest person to me. And I can. So I can kind of still hear the guilt in, in the way that you addressed the story, in the way the lens that you see it through.
00:21:57:05 – 00:22:19:17
Rée
So I’m kind of curious, like, from compulsory education onward, like what were some what kind of classes did you enjoy? And how did that carry over to what you ended up studying in, in college and then grad school?
00:22:19:19 – 00:22:46:07
Eden
So in high school, it would have to be social studies in biology. The art classes as well, even though it was, you know, that it making like, you know. But, hey, I was getting free supplies. They would let me read the supply closet. I was bringing home all kinds of stuff. Not knowing how to use it.
00:22:46:09 – 00:23:23:05
Eden
So it was back and, you know, so after. Oh, and there was economics. So after high school, it was anything related to learning about, you know, the history of the global majority. So any aspect of that, I was really into it, you know, and so art history, world history, African art history, like anything related to studying the history of people or art that wasn’t European.
00:23:23:07 – 00:23:24:20
Rée
Because I not and then.
00:23:24:22 – 00:23:27:03
Eden
Been exposed to that a great deal.
00:23:27:03 – 00:23:56:09
Rée
So yeah significantly and I’m kind of so I know that’s kind of what you studied also after grad school. Like you have your doctorate now. And so I’m kind of I would love to kind of hear like, you know, looking backward from where you’re standing. And I’d love to hear kind of, that journey of learning and unlearning, right?
00:23:56:11 – 00:24:10:07
Rée
Because, yes, like the art that we learn, the history that we learn is very Eurocentric. And, so I’m kind of curious, what did you have to unlearn? After compulsory education, when you started.
00:24:10:08 – 00:24:11:09
Eden
Owning.
00:24:11:09 – 00:24:16:05
Rée
Your face was like, oh, I don’t, I don’t know.
00:24:16:07 – 00:24:21:21
Eden
Yeah. So.
00:24:21:23 – 00:24:23:20
Eden
Unlearning and learning.
00:24:24:01 – 00:24:26:14
Rée
Yeah.
00:24:26:16 – 00:24:56:05
Eden
So when I first started college that was the first time I actually learned sign art, you know, using different mediums. How to draw, how to see learning the elements and principles I’d never learned in school. And so that meant a number of artists that I was exposed to were considered the masters in Europe. Right. I didn’t learn about any other form of art.
00:24:56:07 – 00:25:52:20
Eden
Okay, maybe we touched upon, you know, something? Maybe Hokusai. Maybe. You know, we saw some mask, but there was no real exploration. You know, I never learned ceramics or. Okay, so when I transferred to Howard University, you know, I am working with a lot of great artists, a lot of professional artists. And this is the first time that I’m really looking at, you know, peeling back the layers of, you know, the masters among African American artists, and artists of the African diaspora and, and, I took a professor, Raymond Dillard, and, you know, he made learning art history comical.
00:25:52:21 – 00:26:31:05
Eden
He was so funny. And so I got to really see how artists were developing and using their voices in so many different ways across time and space and I wanted more. So then I started taking other art classes that were, beyond the European tradition. Right. And, I took, you know, three dimensional concepts, which is a required course, for freshmen.
00:26:31:07 – 00:26:43:19
Eden
And so I’m looking at sculpture processes and, you know, mind you, my major initially was electronic studio art, so I.
00:26:43:19 – 00:26:44:05
Rée
Didn’t know.
00:26:44:05 – 00:27:17:22
Eden
That. Yeah, I wanted to, be in computer graphics, but I was loving the experimental process of making being a maker. And so even though my first degree is electronic studio art, by the time I got to grad school, which was art education, it still allowed me to take a lot of studio classes. So here I am in ceramics and in printmaking and, you know, just doing a lot of different things.
00:27:17:22 – 00:27:56:17
Eden
And again, you know, grad school was NYU. So there’s still going to be a great deal of, you know, Europe, the, the center. Right. But, one of my professors, he was, you know, Taiwanese. So his process and how he approached using clay was so phenomenal to me. Right. And so I got to go to his house with Castro.
00:27:56:18 – 00:28:39:22
Eden
We got to go to his house, see his studio and how he, you know, his artistic, you know, development and practice was a part of his lived environment. And just that window into someone else’s, you know, artistic journey that wasn’t African American and that wasn’t European. So I’m like, wait a minute, you know, so yeah, that’s when I really, you know, started to explore my own journey, thinking about what I want to say.
00:28:40:00 – 00:29:17:07
Eden
And you know, how it relates to my historical, well, my ancestry. Right. Yeah. And what that would look like, because being an African American, you don’t have that per se. Right? Right. So I was exploring that. And so my earlier pieces working with Clay was sort of, you know, processing that aspect of who I am, my identity.
00:29:17:09 – 00:29:51:13
Eden
And it got a lot of attention in the studio. And so people would see my work in the studio but not know me. And then when they would see me in their working, like, oh, you’re the one making those. And so I said, oh, okay. So then I would I actually what’s interesting is that one of the greatest ceramic artists was my, one of my three dimensional concept professors from Howard.
00:29:51:15 – 00:29:52:04
Rée
Wow.
00:29:52:04 – 00:30:30:11
Eden
And I never took her for ceramics when he owned art. Brilliant artists. But I adored her, I adored her, I still adore her. And so when I had a break from NYU, can I come visit, you know, so that I would go down and and visit and visit my professors. And, I had a professor who actually was the chairperson at the time, Floyd Coleman and, you know, he he said, Eden, would you come back and be a guest speaker?
00:30:30:12 – 00:30:50:21
Eden
And so I was invited to come back and be a guest speaker. You know, I at the time, I was like, why does he want me to speak? I’m like, okay, but I did it. And, that was probably my first paid speaking gig as a guest. And I was still in grad school.
00:30:50:23 – 00:30:51:23
Rée
Yeah.
00:30:52:01 – 00:31:37:01
Eden
So I came back and there was also I was invited to, a graduate thesis of a young artist, and she was from Japan. And Howard University finishing. And her sculptural pieces blew me away. So there’s this interest in East Asian pottery that is starting to develop. And so that’s what I thought, like, okay, well, you can be an educator because I had a professor who was like, well, you don’t need to be a starting or starving artist.
00:31:37:03 – 00:32:04:19
Eden
So what are you going to do? You know, I got to be I got to do something. I would be a teacher. I don’t want to be a computer graphic artist, because that was a journey that I realized wasn’t for me. By the time I was graduating. So the art education piece allowed me to still, you know, teach, but also to do all of these other things and explore all of these other interests.
00:32:04:21 – 00:32:46:02
Eden
Right in the in the process. And so when I finished up my art education degree, you know, from NYU, I moved here and just began teaching and just still developing. But I knew I needed more. Right. And so I didn’t know what that more would be. I enjoy teaching, I enjoy watching others blossom. Yeah. And so if I feel like I have something to give, I’ll continue to do it.
00:32:46:04 – 00:33:25:07
Eden
But there were times where I was given an opportunity to present to, you know, like, for instance, working at Georgetown and working with other teachers and seeing other things, traveling to Japan for a bit that I realized that I wanted more of the practice of being an artist, but to be that there was still more and so and needed, you know, understanding the artistic practice of working with Clay.
00:33:25:09 – 00:34:00:21
Eden
Yeah. And how do people approach it? So that curiosity of cultural, nuance to working with a material that, you know, it’s not about creativity, it’s not just about creativity, but it’s also about chemistry. It’s also about skill and technique and bridging that all together and how do all of these different people do this right? We see these practices across continents.
00:34:00:23 – 00:34:19:13
Eden
Right. But there’s similarities and differences to this approach that I’m very curious about. So I’m like, oh, and I want to go back to school. Yeah. Because I want to have these conversations on a global scale.
00:34:19:15 – 00:34:20:12
Rée
Oh yeah.
00:34:20:13 – 00:34:55:00
Eden
And I want to travel and I want to just exchange and do more with this. And I think when I travel to LA for that professional development. And learned about the history and relationship of Korea to Japan, and how much of what I love so much about Japanese pottery was really Korean processes that blew me away. That blew me away.
00:34:55:00 – 00:35:54:19
Eden
So then I started studying, you know, the history and knowing, you know, what Japan did and you know, the harm that Japan did in the process of acquiring all these skills and practices. And so it made me very curious about Korean processes. So they know I, I was doing. Work with Georgetown through a nonprofit organization, in KTA, learning about East Asia and really from all of the religions, all of the conflicts, all of the creativity, all of the, the, the food, just everything.
00:35:54:21 – 00:36:21:00
Eden
Yeah. There was a session on it just on NSG and how it lo China, Japan to Korea, it was just everything and I just ate it all up and I just loved it so much. So, so one of the facilitators said to me, I’m working with her, right. Preparing these lessons for teachers in the seminars and she says, eat.
00:36:21:00 – 00:36:48:18
Eden
And she said, it’s so good. The only thing that’s missing is a doctorate. And I’m like, well, that that I think it was the next year I said, okay, no problem. Hahaha. And I applied to Georgetown in 2016. No, 2015, same year I went to therapy. There you go.
00:36:48:23 – 00:36:50:07
Rée
Wow.
00:36:50:09 – 00:37:21:08
Eden
And was accepted. And so my first semester at Georgetown was 2016, in the Liberal Studies department. Right. And the reason why I chose that is because there was so many freedoms about how to formulate my program to fit me. You know, they only had four required courses and the rest of my credits, I built my program myself.
00:37:21:10 – 00:37:51:21
Eden
Wow. So I explored culture. I explored, explored ethnic conflict, ethnic studies. I just I built it that way. And initially my statement that I wrote was about Korea and Japan. Oh, interesting. Trying to understand, you know, the understand people and culture through their ceramic processes.
00:37:51:23 – 00:37:54:13
Rée
Oh that’s beautiful.
00:37:54:15 – 00:37:58:11
Eden
But once I got to Georgetown, that changed.
00:37:58:13 – 00:37:59:19
Rée
Okay.
00:37:59:21 – 00:38:36:20
Eden
And it changed because of those four core courses that focused on philosophers, religion, mostly Christianity. Yeah. And, you know, culture. And by the time I got to one of the second courses related to philosophers and my professor was having this conversation with us about beauty, and, you know, art is supposed to be beautiful, and it’s supposed to be this and quoting these philosophers.
00:38:36:20 – 00:39:06:00
Eden
And I was like, wait a minute. And so I said, all of what you say discredits everyone around the world except for him. And I said, no, that’s the problem. And I identified that for me, that that’s it right there. That’s the source of everything that is wrong. You know, and if you embed that is beauty is that way.
00:39:06:02 – 00:39:35:16
Eden
Then I started to think of how many of us try to see ourselves as beautiful through a white lens. Yes. I started to think about all of the ways people you know are critical about certain black artists or, you know, artists you know, who are creating in a way that European, the European canon doesn’t recognize is brilliant. And I said, you know what?
00:39:35:16 – 00:40:09:23
Eden
This is a little bit bigger than, you know, just, you know, Korean and Japanese processes. What else can I do with this? And so when I think about my own experience in my own journey and I think about how I was taught, even attending Howard University, I still learn those European masters. But I also learned that there were many African-American artists who were also using European processes, sort of to prove their prowess as well.
00:40:09:23 – 00:40:46:01
Eden
Sure, but who could step outside of that and do something different and don’t care, right. How far would that get you? And so I was intrigued by the artists of Afro Cobra, Jeff Donaldson is one of the founders of African Afro Cobra stands for African Time. None of you know bad, relevant, relevant bad artists. I think. And you know, these were African American artists in the 70s who were like, you know what?
00:40:46:01 – 00:41:24:22
Eden
We’re doing our own thing. Our own is static. And we’re pulling back from Africa and West Africa. And, you know, they were just, you know, doing this thing that was empowering in I really appreciated that. But so much of what we see among art is, you know, we misunderstand. We misunderstand that, you know, art is communication. It’s communication, and we’re entitled to communicate.
00:41:25:00 – 00:41:32:06
Eden
And just because you don’t understand how I communicate doesn’t mean my voice and.
00:41:32:08 – 00:42:04:14
Eden
So, you know, so that’s that’s what I took on and that’s how I ended up writing about, you know, critics and writing about philosophers and artists who were considered, revolutionary or, you know, radical. But yeah, they were sharing their experiences, you know, so that’s that’s where, that was my journey. I hope I’ve got all of it.
00:42:04:16 – 00:42:40:08
Rée
Yeah. You know, I’m sure that there were probably. Yeah, there probably a few more things. But, you know, what I am taking away in this moment, is this idea of, like, finding your voice was by was through the process of realizing that you had your own perspective and that you did not have to, use the Western perspective to, as a derivative.
00:42:40:08 – 00:43:27:03
Rée
Right? You didn’t have to, minimize yourself or you didn’t have to change yourself or, just work with what you were given. You found an entirely new angle. You were, like, going all the way down to the mindsets, the behaviors, the philosophy. The driving, like, beliefs of a culture of of the entire world. And so it kind of like what I’m gathering is you had to cut through everything that was written, and you had to find your own perspective and your own angle to find what your voice sounds like.
00:43:27:05 – 00:43:55:05
Rée
And so really, my next question for you is when we look back at that journey of finding and realizing that you have your own perspective, and that’s just as valid, and that art doesn’t have to be beautiful. It’s a communication tool. What are you communicating? So after that journey, I’m curious now what is it that you are saying through your art?
00:43:55:06 – 00:44:05:17
Rée
What is it? What is the perspective that you hold? The philosophy that you, I guess, embed into your artwork. Now.
00:44:05:19 – 00:44:31:22
Eden
So for me, the most important thing is critical thinking. I personally, for me, I want you to go on a journey with me. I don’t want to tell you verbatim what I’m doing, but I love the symbolism that I can play with. Yeah, and I’m going to have a conversation with you, and it’s always going to be a conversation.
00:44:31:22 – 00:45:38:17
Eden
And I really want you to, you know, pay attention to and find inspiration in. But, I’m going to deal with the complicated subject matter always. Yeah. You know, there’s art for art’s sake, but I really value art is the, you know, care about humanity. And care about the freedoms the art world provides. Right. Despite whether you become recognized or you, you know, find wealth, financial gain of any kind, but being able to not only tell a story but do it in a way that is captivating, using a process that no one else is doing, but to, looking at a process in a completely different way.
00:45:38:18 – 00:46:12:11
Eden
That’s what inspires me, and that’s what I look to do with what I’m doing. You know, there is so much of my time spent caring about, you know, my elders of the art world who I studied under and often thinking that I would disappoint them, that I wasn’t good enough in my my approach to be a maker. But I realized that that doesn’t matter so much.
00:46:12:13 – 00:46:53:01
Eden
A lot of the names that are mentioned, they’re not even with us anymore, you know, and the most inspirational of them literally, they’re gone. And so I said, okay, my intention is to be great, to produce great things, to inspire greatness in others. That’s what my purposes. And so if I stay true to that, right, if I stay true to that, then my ancestors will be proud.
00:46:53:03 – 00:47:31:15
Eden
You know, I will be proud. And all of the doubts and all of the insecurities that have came around, being a maker or being, you know, an academic. It’s brutal. It it has no place because it’s based in fear and fear. Can prevent you from being or achieving and reaching those higher points along your journey. Right. There’s stumbles.
00:47:31:17 – 00:47:55:20
Eden
And so if you could just push past that, you know, and just continue what you’re doing and knowing because every time, every time I knew I was, I was doing something brilliant, right. And the worst critic, I think was myself because of all that I was placing on myself.
00:47:55:22 – 00:48:26:00
Rée
So yeah, no, for sure. I think that that’s very relatable, that, you know, that, that we are our own worst critics. Right? And it’s because we are holding ourselves to a certain standard. And then what happens is, once we reach that standard, we raise the bar again. And so it’s like, nope. For yet like and no time to celebrate in between.
00:48:26:02 – 00:48:58:23
Rée
So, yeah, that’s very relatable. I’m kind of curious now, like, as we wrap up our conversation, when we look at your journey of realizing that, you needed those creative outlets at an earlier age, and that you wish you had, you know, better, like, more theory, more principles, more, more things to cling on to, I guess, during high school.
00:48:59:01 – 00:49:34:15
Rée
More like foundational basics, right, of how to create. And then, you know, finding the philosophy and, looking for your perspective and looking for your angle and looking for what you wanted to say. When we look at that entire journey and we look at the next generation of people that were educating, and, you know, you just you are the mom of a recently graduated high school senior who was going to the college of their dreams.
00:49:34:17 – 00:50:10:11
Rée
So as a successful mother, and also as an educator for, you know, 15, ten, 15 years, 20 even longer. 25 oh, my gosh, I can’t believe that. So, yeah, 25 years. Right. So being a successful educator, both in the classroom and at home, I would love to know. Oh, and also, based on your own creative journey, what do you think we need to do as a public?
00:50:10:13 – 00:50:30:14
Rée
Education system or as parent or as any, adult? Right. Who is caring after the next generation? What should we be doing to help our children find their voice, and what kind of supports can we give them to nurture it?
00:50:30:16 – 00:51:10:14
Eden
You know, what’s interesting is that in the U.S, a lot of us are focused on, you know, Stem and science and creating interest and creating, a great deal of focus on, making sure that our students advance in those areas. Yeah. And still this, this, this outdated mindset about artists and our careers. And it’s okay if you choose not to be an artist, even if you are creative and brilliant and all of that.
00:51:10:15 – 00:51:55:09
Eden
It’s fine if you want to study science and you want to study engineering and everything else. However, it is through art courses and art development, that you build your capacity to of ingenuity and innovation. Right. You have to challenge yourself as a critical thinker. Right. And, what abilities do you acquire in an art class that you don’t get in math, you don’t get in other disciplines a great deal?
00:51:55:11 – 00:52:25:05
Eden
And I say this from the perspective of, you know, an art educator in Maryland. And there are certain expectations around how we teach art here. Right? So it is we’re not creating art. Duplicating with someone else did. Right. Because technically, that doesn’t make you an artist. An artist is a person who has the ability to be creative, right?
00:52:25:09 – 00:53:01:12
Eden
So if you’re able to copy a master’s painting, awesome, right? What can you do on your own? Right. If if you’re able to do that in school, for instance, there are artists who, you know, today, I’ve seen them recreate, you know, paintings from the 14th and 15th century Europe and then flip the script and do something else with it and like, yeah, that’s what I’m talking about.
00:53:01:14 – 00:53:19:09
Eden
Right. There are artists who seemingly are approaching creativity from a place where people look at it in a way, I could do that. Could you you know, that is one of the greatest insults.
00:53:19:11 – 00:53:20:01
Rée
Yes.
00:53:20:03 – 00:53:46:19
Eden
Because what it says is that you don’t understand process. If it’s abstract, it’s thought process, you know, a a so it’s like understanding that whether you are choosing to explore the trumpet, saxophone, cello, or if you are choosing to explore or.
00:53:46:21 – 00:54:27:00
Eden
Sculpture, ceramics, even graphic art or painting, knowing that any art lesson that teaches present other than just skill, encouraging those students to really think of something to do with this material that is uniquely you. Yeah, right. That is beneficial. And everywhere else in their life, whether you become an accountant or whether you become, you know, it doesn’t matter.
00:54:27:02 – 00:54:59:12
Eden
Nurturing and massaging that creative process, the ability to think, be a critical thinker impacts how we approach politics, how we approach relationships. Well, let me let me pause. Let me think about this from different angles. That’s what artists do, especially 3D artists. We’re thinking about structure. We’re thinking about the form. We’re thinking about how people are going to see us from different angles.
00:54:59:14 – 00:55:25:14
Eden
There’s so much about artistic processes that will benefit anyone. And it doesn’t matter if you don’t develop into an artist, you know, it’s just knowing that those skills learning, discipline, ceramics, teachers, discipline, you can’t rush anything.
00:55:25:16 – 00:55:26:10
Rée
Oh no.
00:55:26:11 – 00:55:50:09
Eden
You’re going to blow something up, you know, so you have to slow yourself down, think about what works and understand that when you look at something a pretty picture or pretty work of a pretty pot. Awesome. But what it took to get there.
00:55:50:11 – 00:55:51:00
Rée
That’s right.
00:55:51:01 – 00:55:55:10
Eden
That’s it, that’s it.
00:55:55:12 – 00:56:36:19
Rée
So yeah. No what you’re saying also is really it’s about building character to like I think I want to say that creating art is so mentally challenging, especially when it’s you’re not copying something, right. If you’re not copying something and you’re actually turning your, you’re manifesting something that doesn’t exist to the outside world that is purely in your mind into form and structure that someone else can see and understand.
00:56:36:21 – 00:57:26:06
Rée
There is so much patience that is required. There’s so much that goes in to that process like you just talked about. So yeah, really well said. And so really I kind of want to know, like, when we are educating our children either at school or at home, what would you say is the best way to help them understand that, their voice has weight in society, that, that their perspective matters and that, it is important for them to share what it is, that they are thinking about.
00:57:26:08 – 00:57:52:20
Eden
You know, culturally speaking, I was raised in an environment where, you know, children were seen and not heard. That was the same. And so you weren’t allowed to have an opinion without, you know, someone taking it. And, and, you know, an ego driven manner like, how dare you say that. Right. And so there was a you talk about unpacking.
00:57:52:22 – 00:58:28:09
Eden
I had to unpack that too, as a parent because I’m like, you don’t talk to me. That way. But my children actually taught me how to parent them. Oh, so I have two very outspoken children, right? If they wanted to be, they could be lawyers. They can debate you, okay. And they will. And so the thing is, is that I have to put aside whatever I am feeling to make a place for them to express themselves, despite how it makes me feel.
00:58:28:09 – 00:59:05:16
Eden
And it doesn’t matter the subject matter. Okay, so we have gotten to the point. My daughter is 18, my son is 14, is probably 15. They can talk to me literally about anything, and some of what they talk about as young people makes me cringe just a bit. But that cringe is really related to what I was taught parenting should look like, opposed to what it really should be.
00:59:05:18 – 00:59:39:07
Eden
You know, being a voice, having them trust me. Right. And so I let them speak. And I do not show emotion unless emotion is required. Okay. So, for instance, if they want to talk about an experience that they’ve had at school and they need a hug, I am there for the hug. I do not deny them hugs.
00:59:39:07 – 01:00:13:05
Eden
And I offer them frequently, you know, and, let them speak. And I ask them, you know, okay, just pause, think about what you’re going to say, but go ahead and say it. But think about that. Pause means I want you to remember that, you know, language, tone, playgrounds. But go ahead and have your voice. And so they are allowed to speak whatever it is.
01:00:13:07 – 01:00:46:03
Eden
And if I can help, I will help. If I don’t have the answer, I’m okay saying, you know what? I’m not sure about this. And so I have a village of friends and, well, maybe Auntie So-and-so can do that. Can you? Would you like to talk to Auntie So-and-so because they’ve experienced it before? You know, so I make sure that they’re people that I love and adore that I keep in my village circle, which is beyond family.
01:00:46:05 – 01:01:17:23
Eden
Right? And I have, you know, acquired these friendships since college. And, you know, they love my children. And if there’s a subject that I’m not too sure about, I talk to them. And, you know, there was an instance recently where my daughter disagreed politically with the with the election and everything, and she had an opinion about it, and she cares.
01:01:17:23 – 01:01:43:16
Eden
And I’ll just say she cares very much globally about what’s happening. And she in people experience any level of oppression. My daughter cares very much for that. And so a lot of her politics are going to revolve around that. And most people who she was surrounded by disagreed, didn’t care as much about what she was talking about. And since she was upset about it.
01:01:43:18 – 01:01:44:11
Rée
Of course.
01:01:44:11 – 01:02:23:05
Eden
And I had an opinion that I think now that I think about it, it’s been about two weeks, is how I learned to silence my voice to accommodate others in the room, to not make myself a target. And I think that was a safety. However, my daughter showed up to someone who is established politically in D.C. and spoke differently, and this very powerful person in her home.
01:02:23:07 – 01:02:54:17
Eden
And I was I. You know, well, you know, just remember, you know, she’s a good person. We don’t define people by anyone. Bully. And my daughter said, no, I disagree. Oh. She’s like, I disagree. She said, if you believe that, it is okay to oppress people and you believe this and that, then you’re not a good person.
01:02:54:19 – 01:03:25:20
Eden
Doesn’t matter how much money you donate here or there, you’re not a good person. And I’m like wow. So I had to learn something in that in one of my, my, my village friends said, you know I think you need to listen. She’s she’s from a different generation. We’re from a generation where we tapered our voices for others and it’s considered disrespectful or this and that.
01:03:25:22 – 01:03:51:23
Eden
And so I’m like, wow. So I had to go back and say, you know what? You’re correct. What you believe. You know, I’m proud of you for stating your point and being able to stand in it. Right? So that’s the relationship I have with my kids. I’m able to come back and say, you know what? I don’t think I was right on this, you know?
01:03:52:01 – 01:04:24:19
Eden
Yeah. So having the ability to self-reflect, always self-reflect. You know, we want to be super powerful, like, you know, Superman and Superwoman to our to our children. And that is not the case is false. And we we give them a fantasy and we don’t give them realism. You know, we will always be superheroes because we show up.
01:04:24:21 – 01:05:00:18
Eden
And if you show up and you let them know you support them genuinely, they’re not duplications of us. They are individuals. And if you respect them they’re like they’re individuals who make decisions, who will make mistakes. We cannot protect them from everything. Right. So we have to sort of nurture our relationships with them, give them voice and give them an opportunity to express themselves.
01:05:00:20 – 01:05:26:02
Rée
That’s so beautiful. Yeah, it’s really challenging. I think, when you talk about, like, you come from a culture where children are meant to be seen and not heard, and so you had to kind of undo a lot of that, conditioning. And I thought it was so beautiful how you said that you’re your children really helped you parent them.
01:05:26:04 – 01:06:12:08
Rée
And you, I mean, just from my perspective, I think your children are so amazing, and I’m so proud of your daughter. Yeah. I’m so proud of your daughter. The minute I met her, I knew that there was a spark in her and just over the years, just hearing, about the conversations that you guys would share and just even listening to this piece now, like, there’s that relationship is so strong, and I can tell that you really care, to keep her safe, but also to give her the space she needs to know that she’s self efficacious, that she’s competent, and that she knows how to use her, her voice for good.
01:06:12:10 – 01:06:48:13
Rée
So, you know, I’m just so thankful that you’re sharing your secret recipes and your words of wisdom here with us. And so I would love to hear any last words you might have for those who are, raising children, who are either micro schooling or unschooling or homeschooling or just regular public schooling or private schooling, any last pieces of wisdom that you would like to share as we educate the next generation, we communicate.
01:06:48:15 – 01:07:21:05
Eden
In ways, that are not just verbal, more so nonverbal. Right? We communicate our values, you know, we communicate what’s important and, and what’s not important to us by what we expose our children to, the experiences, what we watch, what, you know, we even eat and how we eat. Yeah. All of that and how we respond to what we see others do.
01:07:21:07 – 01:08:04:01
Eden
Right. What what we consider norms and what we determined that are not norms, you know, that’s not normal or whatever. And all of that is linked into our understanding of different cultures as well. So if you teach through, you know, diverse experiences with your children, then you are also building their ability to value other values, systems and values among, you know, just within their community and beyond their, you know, their their environment.
01:08:04:04 – 01:08:35:01
Eden
And so what I’ve learned to do, you know, I, I take them to museums like I also when, when they, when you look at our friend circle, it is genuine not surface. It’s genuine and and also to that’s my personal I’m an introvert so typically if I’m friends with you that means I’m friends with you. Right. So I really care about relationships and knowing people.
01:08:35:03 – 01:09:02:12
Eden
I don’t like surface conversations. I really care about deep conversations. Right. Getting to that. And I really love that. And and what I could learn about people and appreciate their friends. And so this spills over to the people. The people I raised. They’re exactly the same way. So, you know, they’re a little bit more outgoing than me, though, really more willing.
01:09:02:13 – 01:09:50:01
Eden
So, you know, traveling. I’m not rich, but if I find a flight deal to go somewhere I’m in, I can take them. That’s what we’re going to do. So just giving them the opportunity to experience things that are just not within our immediate community, and allowing them the opportunity to embrace difference expands their ability to grow, their ability to even appreciate just, you know, other ways of thinking that are not necessarily, you know, how they see things.
01:09:50:03 – 01:09:59:00
Rée
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.
About Eden
Dr. Eden Reff-Presco is an art ethnologist/educator/artist whose work is informed by the concept of personal space and boundaries that navigate the intersection of cultural agency, symbolism, and access. Her research examines visual culture and its impact on artists of the African Diaspora and East Asia. Dr. Reff-Presco is known for delivering profound lectures and presentations to elevate the capacity of viewers and critics about underrepresented artists. A proud native of New Orleans, Louisiana, she currently resides within the Washington, DC area. https://www.instagram.com/globalartspeak