Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Paula—a writer, reader, and polyglot—about her memories of being stubborn and opinionated growing up, and how her introspective abilities fueled her curiosity and drive to pursue self-improvement as an adult. We talk about the obstacles that get in the way of showing up authentically as ourselves, the charm of people who struggle with depression, and how social media can be used for both social connection and disconnection.
Here is our slightly edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of my name––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:07 – 00:00:28:07 Unknown Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed as a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following. I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:28:09 – 00:00:59:07 Unknown I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale, to speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems, to rethink what schools can be, what it should be.
00:00:59:07 – 00:01:28:01 Unknown When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Paula, a writer reader, and polyglot about her memories of being stubborn and opinionated growing up, and how her introspective abilities fueled her curiosity and drive to pursue self-improvement as an adult.
00:01:28:03 – 00:01:51:01 Unknown We talk about the obstacles that get in the way of showing up authentically as ourselves, the charm of people who struggle with depression and how social media can be used for both social connection and disconnection. Here is our slightly edited conversation.
00:01:51:03 – 00:02:11:03 Unknown I think that as a child, I wasn’t really a great child for my parents to have because I was a bit stubborn, spoiled and very emotional and they just didn’t know what to do with me and how to handle that to know. Many parents prefer to have a child that is behaved and that listens and that’s nice. It wasn’t always like that.
00:02:11:03 – 00:02:43:15 Unknown And I can see I was an annoying child at times. But, you know, I struggle with certain things and I didn’t know how to handle my emotions or how to deal with certain situations that upset me. So this is one of the reasons why I was a bit of a difficult child. But in a way, I like that I kept that stubbornness that, you know, the thing that makes you hard headed and it doesn’t make you just go with the flow or just let others decide what you’re supposed to do or how you’re supposed to live and the kind of person you’re supposed to be.
00:02:43:17 – 00:03:04:23 Unknown So in a way, I’m really happy that survived. I’m really happy that my parents couldn’t just tone it down, because I think that’s one of the things that drives me and that brings me joy today, you know, to challenge the status quo, as you notice, to ask questions and maybe make people uncomfortable sometimes, because I’m also uncomfortable when I think about certain topics.
00:03:05:01 – 00:03:30:02 Unknown But I think there’s a lot of wisdom to be found in asking the difficult questions and trying to see what the answers may be. Yes, but you know, okay, so this is where it’s very interesting to me that when you were younger, you were stubborn and, you know, you were you challenged the status quo because I was not like that at all.
00:03:30:03 – 00:04:07:21 Unknown I was such a people pleaser. I was so quiet. I didn’t have any opinion and I was so sweet. You know, I did everything I was told. I didn’t question anything. You know, I was not like that at all. And I’ve kind of in my adulthood, kind of gone the opposite direction. And now I question everything. And I’m angry when people try to get me to blindly just trust them on something or just listen without any evidence to support why I should believe something, you know?
00:04:07:23 – 00:04:45:00 Unknown And so it’s very interesting that you started off that way and you maintain that sort of stubbornness and willing this to challenge the status quo. And I’m wondering, like, did that ever change? Did you ever have you know, did you ever go through like an identity deformation of trying to be something different? Well, in a way, yes. I mean, I’ve had different stages in life and I’ve changed a lot when I let go of certain beliefs or gave up on certain roles that I had, you know, like, for example, leaving church and stopping to believe in God and things like that.
00:04:45:02 – 00:05:08:05 Unknown But the part of me that’s stubborn and that questioned things has always been there. And I feel like that part has only gotten stronger in recent years, mainly because I’ve been doing a bit of content online and putting my voices out there and learning how to be comfortable with having people judge you and ask you questions and with you and mischaracterize you.
00:05:08:07 – 00:05:27:07 Unknown And in a way that didn’t make me stop, it did the opposite. It sort of made me realize, okay, I need to be focused, accept that this will happen, but not let others stop me or determine what I’m going to do or how I’m going to react. If I have these questions and they challenge me if they’re right to challenge me.
00:05:27:12 – 00:05:50:01 Unknown But I will not stop because of them. On the contrary, sometimes I will ask the uncomfortable questions because I think someone has to. Yeah. And you know, you were talking about how, you know, you’re very lucky and happy that your parents didn’t try to change you or anything like that. And I’m wondering, were either of your parents that way?
00:05:50:03 – 00:06:20:14 Unknown Like, where do you think you learned or kind of adopted that stubbornness? I think you also mentioned the word spoiled. Like where did that come from? Was that modeled for you, Like from your elders or from peers or how did that happen? Good question. I think I get the stubbornness from my dad because my dad is like that and he’s he’s a very interesting person.
00:06:20:15 – 00:06:40:02 Unknown I never felt very close to him because he’s like a traditional dad that keeps at a distance, doesn’t hug you, doesn’t say, I love you, but I know it’s there. So in a way, I’ve always felt connected to him and he has this weight is snarkiness sometimes do self-deprecating humor, and I’m sure I get all that from him.
00:06:40:04 – 00:07:05:05 Unknown My mom is a bit more kind and doesn’t want to upset people. She steps away from difficult questions, but my dad will sometimes say the thing that pisses you off or what he doesn’t like, or just call people out. And I got that from him. Yeah. That I’m trying to like imagine that dynamic. And I think you are based in Romania, right?
00:07:05:06 – 00:07:37:02 Unknown Is that where you grew up? Yeah. Is that kind of like the typical culture, I guess. And I, of course, I’m I’m not trying to generalize, but I think, you know, like every culture or every like, country or even neighborhood or community where you grow up kind of has like a kind of like a status quo, you know, like, you know, women are supposed to behave this way or men behave this way or fathers act this way, and mothers are this way to their children.
00:07:37:07 – 00:08:03:06 Unknown And I’m wondering, like, do you think that your parents followed like something similar or as to like maybe the dominant culture in in your community or in your country? Or do you think that that was atypical? I think this was typical for my country or maybe for Eastern Europe, I guess, and for Christian families as well, because I was raised in a Christian family.
00:08:03:07 – 00:08:22:02 Unknown Almost everyone in my family is Christian, the type to go to church almost every Sunday. So that may have also shaped my family as well. There were certain things that were instilled in me, you know, like the idea that you’re supposed to be modest and behave in a certain way and be kind and things like that. Not everything stuck to me, though.
00:08:22:04 – 00:08:48:17 Unknown But yeah, so the idea of the traditional family, I think, is something that is common in this part of the world. And I think that many people my age have the same dynamic, You know, with the father that is usually a bit more distant, doesn’t show much affection. He may tell you I’m proud of you at one point, like when you graduate or something, but it’s the mom that is usually closer to the children and she takes care of them and asks them, Hey, how was your day today?
00:08:48:20 – 00:09:19:19 Unknown How did things go at school? And she would be the one to take on the responsibility of handling things, you know, like celebrations or buying gifts for the teacher or stuff like that? Yeah, I, I can kind of get that picture. And, you know, I was raised by a single mom and I did have like, sometimes my grandparents were around and sometimes I had, like, step father figures, but it was really for the entire time, the most consistent thing.
00:09:19:19 – 00:09:51:01 Unknown Was it was really just my mom and me. And so I kind of had like just one model of what a person is, what a grown up is like in the world, and at many in many, many times that was insufficient. And so I kind of had to find my way. And I’m wondering for you, like you were kind of talking about how, you know, your mother was closer.
00:09:51:07 – 00:10:15:02 Unknown And that’s kind of typical of maybe the culture. And I’m wondering, do you think I mean, you said that there was this expectation possibly because it was also a Christian family of, you know, being modest. But I kind of got the feeling like that was because you are you were a woman, right? Not because you were a man.
00:10:15:02 – 00:10:45:12 Unknown Or is that also something that is considered of all people, regardless of gender? It’s stronger for women. Of course, that’s the feeling that I got, at least you know now with the awareness I have with the things that I’m learning. Of course, I look at things very differently and I can see that the gender roles are a bit, how shall I put it, stereotypical, and they tend to lock people in a box or to steer them in different directions.
00:10:45:14 – 00:11:09:04 Unknown And you can see this since childhood. You know, girls are supposed to be kind and they are supposed to play nice and not upset people, and boys are allowed to get dirty and play outside and push each other and do other things like that. So the separation between the roles has always been very clear to me. And it’s only now in the past two years that I’ve realized that this could be a problem.
00:11:09:06 – 00:11:29:14 Unknown what do you mean it could be a problem? I mean that when we create these stereotypes, this role is that people are supposed to take and women are supposed to be like this and men are supposed to be like this. We put them in boxes and we don’t allow them to express themselves as they would naturally, or we push them in a certain direction.
00:11:29:14 – 00:11:51:20 Unknown And I think that can harm everyone. So, for example, I’m not sure if if this is genuine, but I know that men are not allowed to express their emotions as much and they may be a bit more disconnected with their emotions because of this. We pay attention to how women deal with mental illness more in our society, but men don’t feel comfortable to talk about that.
00:11:51:20 – 00:12:15:06 Unknown And of course, that’s a shame because it’s not like you’re a man. So suddenly you don’t have feelings or you don’t struggle. You do, and you should be able to express that without fearing that it takes away from your manhood and something absolute. I think that the problem with these roles is that they can also affect relationships negatively and they can harm both of them, you know?
00:12:15:06 – 00:12:35:04 Unknown So if women are supposed to do this, men are supposed to do this, but this gets in the way of you connecting with a different person and building a certain relationship that works for you. I think that’s a problem. So it may seem like some sex benefits more because of this clear gender roles in society where it may seem like they bring stability.
00:12:35:06 – 00:13:07:08 Unknown But I think that actually creates lots of lots of walls, lots of obstacles, real connection. And they keep people stuck when they shouldn’t. So in my opinion, we should challenge these roles. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, I think idealistically and you know, at a very like intellectual cognitive, very like prefrontal cortex, like executive level. Right. I totally agree with this.
00:13:07:10 – 00:13:42:16 Unknown And I think I’m I would like to and I think I am, but I would like to raise my daughter in a way where, you know, she feels comfortable to explore any field or any sort of role that isn’t traditionally considered female or male. I would like for her to transcend these stereotypes and things like that, and I think I’m actively keeping that kind of free.
00:13:42:18 – 00:14:35:00 Unknown But, you know, because of my conditioning and, you know, growing up in a very South Korean, like a very Korean household in culture where women and men have very distinct roles and expectations, it’s so hard to overcome those stereotypes that are embedded in our habits, in our nervous system, in our default behavior and things like that. So maybe actually we can rewind a little bit and it’s kind of curious, like what are some maybe classes or subjects that you excelled in or that you enjoyed or that you received positive validation or reinforcement that you were, you know, finding growth and success, academic Lee when you were younger?
00:14:35:02 – 00:15:00:07 Unknown All right. So when I think back to how I was in high school and in university, I think that I was pretty average as a student. I don’t think I was an excellent student, even though I probably felt like I was better than I was. That’s something that I’m I’m reassessing now that’s been interesting to me. But I think it’s I was I was a good student and I was pretty good at certain things, you know?
00:15:00:07 – 00:15:21:15 Unknown So, for example, in high school I used to love foreign languages, especially English and Italian. So I focused on that. And then at university I went on to study translation and particularly in interpreting, interpreting, you know, like the or translation that happens at international conferences and the person sits in a booth and they translate everything that’s being spoken directly.
00:15:21:17 – 00:15:51:00 Unknown So that’s been something I loved to pursue. I was good at it. Of course, I still had work to do if I actually wanted to working there professionally, but I was really good at it and I enjoyed it so much. But yeah, I mean, I had things that I liked. I had things that I was good at. I had things that teachers praised me for, but I wouldn’t call myself like the genius students you have in mind, the stereotype you see in movies.
00:15:51:02 – 00:16:14:14 Unknown What are some classes or I guess, subjects that you didn’t enjoy? I didn’t really enjoy math and science in general. And now, in a way, it’s a shame because I realized that this is one of those things where I think I was a bit shaped by the influence that I got and from the subtle messages I got from my teachers.
00:16:14:16 – 00:16:44:17 Unknown No, I don’t think anyone said this out loud specifically or I don’t remember it. But I always get the feeling that women are a bit pushed towards the humanities while boys are being pushed a bit more towards math and science and gender. And now with my fascination with psychology, I’m so sorry. I didn’t think that throughout because it would have been great for me when you say math and science.
00:16:44:18 – 00:17:32:14 Unknown So I’ve actually had several conversations with people on this podcast, particularly about math. And one of my guests talked about how a lot of math teachers are male. And the way that math is taught is very much like there is a right answer and that there should be only one way to demonstrate how you achieve that answer. And I’m wondering for you, what do you think it was about math that made you feel like you didn’t enjoy it as much as the other classes?
00:17:32:16 – 00:17:50:17 Unknown I’m not sure to be honest, because for me, it wasn’t this thing that, you know, there’s a right way of doing things and there’s a wrong way. I like this in in English. I used to like the type of exercises where you do have your answers, you know. So those were my favorite. I like clarity. I like to know that there’s a right answer.
00:17:50:18 – 00:18:12:18 Unknown And then I want to find out and then just learn that to know. But with mess, I’m not really sure why I struggled with it. Maybe women do struggle with it a bit more, but maybe this is also because women don’t enjoy learning math as much and they aren’t push towards it. So it’s sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
00:18:12:18 – 00:18:37:06 Unknown You know, that may have been in my case, for example, I didn’t feel like I was particularly good at math. I didn’t like it, especially I didn’t like it very much. I don’t think that any of my teachers pushed me in that direction. So I just never pursued it any any more than I had to, you know, take the classes that I was required to, but not think about pursuing that at university level.
00:18:37:08 – 00:19:05:14 Unknown So when you say like I think you mention humanities and I know you said you really liked foreign languages and so you kind of went that direction. And I’m wondering like what about subjects like history? Were you also interested in psychology then or like sociology or when did you start getting into that more? Yes, I’ve always been interested in different topics.
00:19:05:16 – 00:19:25:18 Unknown I know that in high school we had classes where it was just one a year, but one year you did logic, one year, you studied philosophy one, you studied psychology and one you took a sociology. And I liked all of those, but none of those stood out to me in particular at that time. I liked learning about each, but I didn’t want to pursue them at university.
00:19:25:19 – 00:19:50:06 Unknown And my fascination with psychology came years later when I was actually trying to learn more to deal with my own problems in life because, you know, interests often start out that way. So years ago I was struggling with depression and I was trying to make sense of that, you know, to understand, okay, why do I feel depressed? Why is happiness so elusive and so hard to find?
00:19:50:08 – 00:20:07:20 Unknown So of course, I went looking for information and I found interesting that talks. And then I bought the books of the people in the TED talks who are psychologists. And I heard about Martin Seligman in a way put the foundation for positive psychology. Okay, So let me read five of his books and see what I have to learn.
00:20:07:22 – 00:20:29:22 Unknown And that’s part of the fascination with psychology that made me realize that even though we’re all different and unique and good, the only people that get to experience our minds and our brains from the inside, you can actually learn a lot from the study of it, from what psychologists can figure out, from brain scans, from different experiments, from how people behave.
00:20:30:00 – 00:21:08:06 Unknown So to me it was like the switch turned on those light and I was so impressed and I sort of value it. So I said, okay, that’s it. I have to keep learning, you know? okay. So it was so it was post-grad and it was when you okay. QUESTION I’m wondering when you said you kind of fell into a depression, how soon after that how soon after graduation from university did you fall into your depression?
00:21:08:08 – 00:21:40:02 Unknown I didn’t actually think about that. It was probably one or two years later. But I should mention that I have a tendency towards I have a tendency to get depressed at different times. So I’ve had periods in my life when I’ve experienced depression. It may have been shorter periods of times. And something I noticed is that stress actually plays a big factor in my case, not just in my case, but, you know, okay, let me try to put this better.
00:21:40:04 – 00:22:03:00 Unknown I’ve struggled with depression at different times in my life, and I think I may have a predisposition for not sure if it’s genetic because I didn’t test it. But there is the genetic predisposition for depression, and usually people get depressed when they undergo a lot of stressful events or when they’re struggling with something or when they’re different factors in that they have to deal with and they can’t cope properly or it’s too much for them.
00:22:03:05 – 00:22:28:09 Unknown So I’ve experienced that since I was a teenager. But in this case, I think maybe it was. It happened after I graduated, partly because I didn’t have a clear direction in mind, partly because I was struggling with my own relationship. And so that brought different challenges to me. You know, being in a serious, committed relationship for the first time was a big adjustment for me.
00:22:28:11 – 00:22:50:18 Unknown So there were many things that were many types of adversities that I had to deal with, and I didn’t have pretty good strategies in place or a good support system to guide me and to help me make sense of it all. So I just it’s like you fall into a depression and then one day you realize, I don’t want to get up again.
00:22:50:20 – 00:23:23:11 Unknown And yeah, I do. I can kind of relate to how you say how you said that you have a predisposition to, you know, getting depressed when there are lots of adversities, I guess, surrounding you at a certain time. And you did mention like teenage years and I guess, you know, like when we’re going through hormonal changes, it’s, you know, it’s inevitable, right, that, you know, we don’t know how to deal with ourselves.
00:23:23:11 – 00:24:03:16 Unknown And there’s a lot going on. And, you know, I can relate to that because I kind of have a tendency to be to have depression like my entire life. I’ve kind of been depressed. And that’s kind of like my my status, my my standard is that I’m a little bit closer to the soil. And I’ve always thought like, you know, it takes a very resilient type of person to or resilience to kind of get yourself out of that stage.
00:24:03:18 – 00:24:31:00 Unknown And I’m always looking for strategies because I didn’t feel like I was modeled healthy strategies of combating depression. I think in my culture and in my circles and in my communities, it was always depression was kind of taboo and it was not allowed. And I think earlier we were talking about like, you know, like men are not allowed to show emotion.
00:24:31:02 – 00:25:10:09 Unknown But I feel like in general, you know, showing weakness emotionally or mentally is a taboo and it’s frowned upon. And I, you know, while doing homeroom, I’ve always sort of I’ve just been kind of very, really upset with, you know, our education system and compulsory education and in particular that they don’t teach us how to cope with mental stress, with psychological stress, with spiritual stress, any kind of stress that isn’t academic.
00:25:10:11 – 00:25:44:14 Unknown We’re not really shown any strategies to deal with them. And I’m wondering for you, like, did you have people during your teenage years showing you how to cope with your stress in healthy ways? Did you have any support in your teenage years to help you cope with that stress, or were you left on your own? I didn’t really have a support system to help me with my depression, and I’m not even sure that my parents knew I was depressed because in a way my mom knew that something was wrong with me.
00:25:44:14 – 00:26:01:20 Unknown At one point I remember that she did take me to a therapist a few times to see how that would go, but I’m not really sure if she actually understood what I was dealing with. Maybe the world was more like she’s a stubborn child, she has her own issues. Maybe someone would help her coping some way, you know?
00:26:01:22 – 00:26:20:17 Unknown But no, we didn’t talk about this. We didn’t openly talk about this in my family or with someone else. I didn’t have friends I would talk to about this. So it was sort of me trying to just accept it, sit with the pain. It would destroy those with a conflict. And as you said, this in a way, builds resilience.
00:26:20:19 – 00:26:41:18 Unknown In a way it feels unfair that so many of us go through it alone, but at the same time, it’s not exactly something I wouldn’t want on people. And this may sound so weird to hear, but actual love people who struggle with depression in a way, in a way, those are the best people that I can think of.
00:26:41:20 – 00:27:11:21 Unknown They’re tend to be more empathetic. Yeah, I mean, I agree with this particularly, you know, okay, this is kind of unrelated, but when I was in college, I had a friend. She was she was a house, not a housemate, like a dorm, a dorm mate, like she was in my same dorm. And she she’s kind of very tall and skinny.
00:27:11:21 – 00:27:43:22 Unknown But she told me or she told us that she was really obese when she was younger. And she was saying how she loves people. She loves fat people or people who used to be fat because they have so much more empathy for people. And so when you said, you know, people who are prone or have a predisposition, disposition to depression, that, you know, they have more empathy.
00:27:43:22 – 00:28:04:02 Unknown And and yeah, the thing that I was saying is that I’ve come to realize that in a way, I love people who are depressed. And I know that this sounds a bit twisted and weird, but I’ve come to realize that the people who have experienced depression or a different kind of struggle struggles, not just depression, but they tend to be the people who feel life deeply.
00:28:04:05 – 00:28:23:22 Unknown They are more in tune with their emotions, they’re more empathetic, as you mentioned, and they’re the kinds of people that will go the extra mile to be nice to others. They will know themselves more deeply. And they’re the kinds of people that I think that I feel could make the world a better place. So that’s that’s how I see it, you know?
00:28:23:22 – 00:29:09:16 Unknown So if someone tells me that, I’ve been depressed and something inside my head goes off, it’s like, I want to get to know Demi Moore. That’s really fascinating, you know? Okay, so kind of unrelated, but it just reminded me, do you know Donald Miller as he does Story Brand? He I heard him talk in several YouTube videos or other podcasts where he talks about the hero, the villain, the Guardian and the victim, and he talks about how the hero and the villain have the same back story, right?
00:29:09:16 – 00:29:38:08 Unknown But when the the villain says, you know, because this tragedy happened to me, I’m going to make sure this happens to other people. And the hero says, this happened to me, but I’m never going to let this happen to anybody else ever again. Right. And, you know, after hearing that, I was sort of like, that’s really true, that, you know, heroes and villains have the same back story.
00:29:38:08 – 00:30:26:01 Unknown They have that same pain and that trauma and that feeling of being alone and having had nobody there for them. But it takes a lot of resilience and courage and strength and processing and transformation in order to, like you said, make the world a better place. And so in many ways, I think what you’re saying is very powerful and very true that people who can deal with depression, who can sit with those really strong, powerful, scary emotions, have the ability to hold that and transform it into something different.
00:30:26:03 – 00:30:50:17 Unknown So I really love that insight. There was an interesting quote I heard a few months ago that stuck to me. It was something like the villain is just a hero whose story has never been told. And that got me thinking because, you know, I think that villains may be heroes in in the making that couldn’t process their emotions very well or they didn’t have anyone to stand by them.
00:30:50:19 – 00:31:10:06 Unknown So maybe they experienced more pain or maybe they were less equipped to handle the pain that they were dealing with and something in them pushed them towards the dark side. And in a way I can relate to that. I think I do have a dark side and of course it is. That may one day. Come on. I hope it doesn’t.
00:31:10:11 – 00:31:44:05 Unknown But I can I can empathize inflated villains in stories so much. Yeah. And I really love those stories where they take, you know, like a historical villain and then actually give them a backstory, you know, like Maleficent or Wicked, right, where they take those characters, those villains, and they tell us how they became the villain. And then you’re like, my gosh, You know, like, of course I would become a villain, too, if that happened to me.
00:31:44:06 – 00:32:25:04 Unknown Exactly. So I’m really interested in psychology too, but also because, you know, I’ve always struggled with my mental health, and something that my therapist shared with me maybe last year is the framework of the poly vagal ladder. And how, you know, at the top or at the bottom, depending on how you see the graph. But at the healthiest level, we have ventral vagal where we feel so safe and we feel so social that we are able to connect with other people.
00:32:25:09 – 00:33:07:15 Unknown And so we we find safety in social connection and then at our worst. So like, we cannot even get out of bed like dorsal vagal where we cannot pull ourselves up because we have just completely disconnected from our nervous system from anything. And that is completely like that is social withdrawal, you know. And so when I look at people with psychopathy or sociopathy, you know, they generally have histories where they’ve been disconnected from society, you know, like nobody was there for them when they needed help.
00:33:07:18 – 00:33:35:19 Unknown Nobody was there for them when they needed support or assistance. And so they have gone the opposite direction of it, of extreme independence from society. And that’s where we get our radicals and our criminals and all of those things. And and I’m wondering, you also said, you know, you do have this dark side and you’re scared it might come out one day.
00:33:35:21 – 00:34:10:12 Unknown And, you know, I’m wondering like I think we’re all sort of like holding a public side and a and a dark side. And I’m wondering for you, do you ever show that dark side to people or are there some people who you have shown that dark side, too? I don’t think so. I know that the dark side I have comes out sometimes in my snarkiness and in how I interact with some people online.
00:34:10:12 – 00:34:32:13 Unknown For example, sometimes when someone pisses me off or when I think that they are mischaracterizing me or just trying to paint me as an idiot because we disagree on something, then some of my dark side comes out in that snarkiness, but other than that, I keep it suppressed or I don’t feel the need to express myself in that way, if that makes sense.
00:34:32:13 – 00:35:06:00 Unknown Yeah, for sure. And you know, I think I spent so much of my life trying not to trying to suppress that dark side. And then at some point in my life being afraid to show that dark side to other people. But I think my mother is somebody who has, in adequate amounts, seen my dark side come out and I’m always a little bit embarrassed or like I feel guilty when when I do show those sides.
00:35:06:00 – 00:35:54:01 Unknown But, you know, that is something that with my mother, I’m comfortable showing. And that’s why I was curious if if anyone has ever seen that. But, you know, I think there are some people who I’m like, you know, you deserve to see my dark side. So here it is. Hello. But in general, I do try and I don’t know if it’s because of like the nurture of, you know, being a woman and like me trying to fit into that role of I’m a nice, sweet girl, I don’t want to show my dark side, you know, But sometimes I feel like it’s unfair.
00:35:54:03 – 00:36:34:10 Unknown Do you ever feel like it’s unfair? It’s unfair to you, to your dark side? that’s a good question. Or to others, because they don’t really know the real you. Who is it unfair to? In many ways it’s unfair to everybody. But I want to say it’s unfair. Like the intent behind my question was to me, right. I think it’s unfair to me that I can’t be my complete self.
00:36:34:12 – 00:37:08:13 Unknown I always have to hide some part of me so that, you know, I can protect my relationships with people, which I guess is a good thing. Right? It’s it’s good to be civil, I guess. Yeah. And I’m curious for you, like, what do you think is important in a relationship with whether, you know, somebody very well or you don’t know somebody that well?
00:37:08:13 – 00:38:01:18 Unknown So like from a distance, what do you think is important to keep authentic? Like, do you think people should have the freedom to show their dark side and light side all the time? Or do you think it’s better for society and civilization to always be showing the good side? this is a great question, and I think the answer is complicated because, okay, the first thing I want to say is that I don’t think we should all keep all our dark sides hidden and always display the light sides or the nice sides of ourselves, because then we have a society of people who pretend nobody really knows each other, and we can’t even relate to
00:38:01:18 – 00:38:29:18 Unknown each other as deeply as we could had we show all parts of us. So in a way, as if we have a dark side, it’s better to reveal that because then the other person can decide if they want to interact with you or not, and it can go in different ways. The other person may react to you because they also have a dark side and they relate so they can say, wow, I feel so much more understood now and they can understand you as well.
00:38:29:18 – 00:38:51:15 Unknown So we can connect on a deeper level, but it can also go the other way when the other person says, I don’t have a dark side, I don’t understand this. I’m scared. So I have to retreat to protect myself. But then at least they know you and they react to yourself, not just to an image you are projecting to the peace or make things simple and light.
00:38:51:17 – 00:39:09:19 Unknown But I should say that it depends on what you mean by that. My dark side, you know how dark and twisted can some people be? Because I may be able to relate to some, but not to everyone. And if some people are really dark and twisted, maybe they should reveal that because maybe some of them need help with that.
00:39:09:19 – 00:39:33:02 Unknown You know, maybe it’s something that’s been caused by the deep seated trauma that they’ve been trying to deny. Or maybe they’re just psychopaths. They have the type of brain that works differently than most people’s brains. And then in that case, therapy may be able to help them establish relationships. I’m not saying it will make their brains normal, whatever normal means, but it could help them.
00:39:33:07 – 00:39:57:09 Unknown It could help them understand themselves and others better. From what I’ve heard, I didn’t read too much on this or don’t rely on it too much. But from what I’ve heard, therapy can be helpful. In the case of people with psychopathy. Yeah, for sure. And you know what this just reminded me of? There’s there’s a doctor who is also a psychiatrist.
00:39:57:11 – 00:40:42:18 Unknown So he’s a medical doctor and he’s a psychiatrist and he has Native American descent or heritage or culture. And he was talking with another doctor and they were talking about how in this Native American tradition, when somebody comes forth with a mental illness or a disease, the entire community thanks this person because they have exposed a disease within the community and they can all rooted out together.
00:40:42:20 – 00:41:20:04 Unknown And so going back to what you said about how it is important, you know, in in the former case scenario to kind of show all parts of yourself so that other people can relate to you and feel less alone and, you know, help each other through that difficult or that twisted narrative or that dark side together. And so I love the beauty in collaboration of working with society to help all of us forward.
00:41:20:06 – 00:41:45:13 Unknown But so much of our society is set up in a very like, fear based punishment kind of way of, you know, if you do show that you are sick or that you are twisted or that you know you have more darkness than others, then you deserve to be put in prison or put behind bars to protect the safety of everybody else.
00:41:45:15 – 00:42:52:18 Unknown And I’m just wondering, you know, so if we look back to maybe, you know, when you were in school and struggling with certain teenage depression years and having felt kind of lonely, maybe at times and not having the adequate support either from your parents or your teachers to help you through, what do you think we can do in either the way that we educate our children at home or at schools to make sure that children don’t feel that aloneness right to have the support they need to find the help that they need in collaboration with their peers and guardians, rather than fear based being alone and kind of punishment and secrecy and hiding this.
00:42:53:00 – 00:43:14:09 Unknown This is a good question. I think probably the first thing we need is more education about this. You know, so if people are struggling with mental illness or with certain types of difficulties, it’s first of all, important for them to understand what they are and how they work. And they come from, you know, so, for example, I think that many people may be depressed.
00:43:14:11 – 00:43:37:14 Unknown They don’t know they are depressed because they didn’t look up symptoms in the diagnostic in the DSM and because they didn’t look that up, they may just think, maybe I’m stressed or I’m dealing with something or, you know, I find it hard to cope with life. But unless you know what it actually is, you can put a term to it and you probably don’t understand it well enough.
00:43:37:14 – 00:44:03:05 Unknown So I think that the first thing we need is awareness and education. And then it’s also useful to help people understand what mental illness actually means and what are the causes that contribute to it. You know, So I think that it helps to have a science based understanding, to think about, okay, with some things, there’s a genetic predisposition, there’s no need to feel bad about it, no need to feel shame with other things.
00:44:03:10 – 00:44:26:04 Unknown And even if it is a genetic predisposition, it may also be triggered in certain contexts. So of course, the way you’re living matters who you surround yourself with, how society responds, what kind of pressure society puts on you. And it’s important to understand how there’s so much of it that can affect you. And it’s not just something that comes out of your mind because there’s something wrong with your mind.
00:44:26:06 – 00:44:48:17 Unknown So I think that this is a message it’s very important to convey. Whatever is happening to you is your way of reacting based on who you are and what is happening to you. So there’s no need to feel ashamed, no need to hide, no need to pretend that everything is fine. Just let’s keep the peace. Let’s not go going there and look at the dark shadows and talk about them.
00:44:48:19 – 00:45:24:02 Unknown And then I think that it’s useful to also talk about coping strategies and, you know, things that have been proven to work. So there are many things that we could do with children to help them increase their positive emotion or try to find a better way to handle their emotions. For example, even teaching them how to use the right terms to express their emotions or to write, to express their emotions, to paint, or to use whatever creative outlets they can just to create something that makes them express whatever they experiencing, you know, I recently started writing poetry.
00:45:24:02 – 00:45:57:13 Unknown Sometimes I don’t think I’m good at it, but someone shared some poetry with me and that’s sort of sparked an interest in me. And now whenever I’m dealing with something or I’m struggling or I’m simply trying to make sense of an experience or a topic, I go and I write a bit of poetry. It’s not always good. I can never think it’s good, by the way, but sometimes it’s just interesting to see what comes out of it because in a way, when I write poetry, I feel like my own mind betrays me and reveals itself.
00:45:57:15 – 00:46:22:12 Unknown And then I sit back and is why did I put that there? Why did I use this word or this metaphor? And then it’s a different opportunity for me to reflect and dig deeper. So this is my emotion, creative expression, because maybe when you do something like this, you write poetry or you just journal or you take pictures or you paint, maybe something comes out of you that has escaped your conscious awareness.
00:46:22:14 – 00:46:48:00 Unknown And I think that can also be useful in studying and people can respond to that as well. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I want to ask you about something because you use the word I don’t know if it’s any good. I’m wondering where that judgment comes from. I’m curious, like who gets to decide whether poetry is good or not?
00:46:48:02 – 00:47:15:02 Unknown That’s a good question. So with self-expression and judgment, I kind of struggle with it because in one way, I don’t care about what other people think. You know, this is if I’m just expressing myself, well, it doesn’t matter. It’s just something I do for myself. So I get to decide when I get this this describe me and if it describes me or if it helps me learn more about my self, then it’s done its job.
00:47:15:02 – 00:47:38:09 Unknown It’s done what it’s supposed to. Of course it’s good. But at the same time, I think, okay, if I were to share this with the world, what they like it, what they think this is insightful. What’s the deeper lesson that’s presented in such a beautiful poetic way or what I say? How? My God. So something like a child with like so she’s taking herself way too seriously here.
00:47:38:11 – 00:48:12:21 Unknown So I have both sides. And this actually made me think about whether self-awareness or awareness or introspection can actually lead to insecurity, you know, because when I think about something or when I created or when I write it, that insecurity sort of comes only when I try to imagine what certain other people would think. So in a way, it’s like it’s an artificial insecurity that I’m creating just because I use theory of mind to test those ideas.
00:48:12:23 – 00:48:39:15 Unknown So it’s been an interesting play happening in my mind recently. Yes. And, you know, you shared an article, I can’t pronounce his name, but it was maybe the you know what I’m talking about. I know the articles that go on. And I have been wanting to ask you about this. You know, the way that we present ourselves to the world.
00:48:39:17 – 00:49:15:09 Unknown How and I love that you’re tying this into theory of mind and introspection, because a lot of I think I was seeing my I am still seeing my therapist and a lot of what we talk about is my perfectionism and we talk about and she is constantly asking me, she’s constantly shattering my beliefs. And she goes, Yep. Do you think there’s a connection here to your perfectionism and why you’re thinking that way?
00:49:15:11 – 00:49:42:08 Unknown And she’s always helping me realize that everything that I think about of how does this person perceive me or, you know, am I writing this for myself or in my writing this for another person, you know? And it gets really tricky because, you know, if you’re a writer, for example, and you know, you’re or you’re a journalist, for example, you know, you’re primary audience isn’t yourself.
00:49:42:12 – 00:50:12:22 Unknown You know, your your primary audience is the people who are subscribing to your journal or you’re writing or buying your book or whatnot. And so, you know, your audience is somebody other than yourself. And so I guess when you’re talking about introspection and thinking about, well, is this any good? You know, there’s that sort of layer of is this good for my target audience, Right?
00:50:13:00 – 00:50:47:02 Unknown Will my target audience like this because I am writing this for them and and so I wonder and it gets really tricky because when our play and our work sort of coincide, right? And, you know, like, blogging is my hobby, but it’s also my job. For example, your audience is both you and the art, the audience that you’re writing for.
00:50:47:04 – 00:51:27:05 Unknown And so you’re constantly at war of Is this good for my standards, but is this good for my other audience? And so you’re constantly scrutinizing yourself from not only your own self-critical voice, but from the perception of the criticism from your actual audience. And so you’re constantly inundated with criticism. And I wonder, like, that’s why sometimes I think, you know, it’s easier just to have a job that pays for your living and a job or and then have the rest be hobbies.
00:51:27:05 – 00:51:53:02 Unknown Because then you don’t tie that sort of judgment and criticism that it, you know, diminishes your quality of life. And so I’m wondering, how do you balance those and like how you put it that there are two layers, the audience, which is yourself and the audience, which are the other people that will read or look at your work, because that’s exactly how I see it is.
00:51:53:03 – 00:52:20:01 Unknown And it is a constant battle between the two. You know, when I write, I sometimes think, which voice should I listen to or which perspective should I care about more? And something that I’ve noticed is that since I started trying to write different kinds of works, I haven’t published them yet, but I’ve been working on an article that’s about identity and how you present yourself on social media.
00:52:20:01 – 00:52:39:18 Unknown Because I’ve been thinking about that a lot and I wanted to put myself out there as well. And it’s a different kind of article because it’s not just an article with some insights and some advice on how to present yourself online. It’s an article where I also reveal myself. I talk about myself and who I am and how I think about these topics.
00:52:39:20 – 00:53:11:16 Unknown And I write that way mainly for self-expression, but also because I want other people to get inside my head for if they want. So I realize that I have no idea how other people think, but I’m so curious to hear how they think, and I’m so curious if people can relate to the chatter that I have in my mind sometimes, you know, and in a way, I think that you should write how you think, at least sometimes or if you want to, because this gives other people a chance to see themselves in your own writing.
00:53:11:16 – 00:53:32:19 Unknown So one of the best compliments I’ve ever received was something that a person recently said. She always take the words out of my mouth and to me this was the best praise you could ever hope for. If you publish anything anywhere to make someone feel so understood that it’s like you’re using their words. I mean, what else could you hope for?
00:53:32:21 – 00:53:59:16 Unknown And in a way, this is why I push back on the criticism. I’m a hero in my mind, or from I push back on the desire to hold back because I realize that if I want to put it out there without considering the judgment of others, then I should probably put it out there. If I’m comfortable with sharing that and being vulnerable and being a little bit more open than other people would be, why shouldn’t I if I choose?
00:53:59:16 – 00:54:37:08 Unknown So no. So, you know, it’s hard to balance this out and to find out, okay, am I being vulnerable or am I oversharing? And is oversharing me not being vulnerable anymore? Or on the contrary, in some contexts, me being authentic means oversharing and letting people get inside my head to see what it’s like. Yeah, no, that’s brilliant. And you know what that reminds me of is, you know, I think that what kind of compliments or praise or validation that we value kind of reveals a lot about what we value.
00:54:37:10 – 00:55:20:05 Unknown And I’m curious for you, what do you think is the North Star or Compass that leads you forward? It’s actually different two things, but one is the one we’ve hit on, which is authenticity. This is one of the things that I’ve had since I was a child. I, I can see myself back then that I was. And it comes it’s related a bit to my stubbornness, because if I was feeling a certain way or misbehaving, then I didn’t want to just put on a show to make others comfortable.
00:55:20:07 – 00:55:47:15 Unknown So it’s all connected in a way, and that’s something that I’m just realizing. If I’m acting out, then I don’t want to shut myself and pretend that I’m not dealing with uncomfortable emotions or with too many emotions or something like that. So in a way it is authenticity, but also authenticity in a way that can upset people or that can reveal things about yourself that may make you uncomfortable.
00:55:47:17 – 00:56:33:20 Unknown So it’s it’s something like authenticity at all costs, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I think we were briefly talking about like how much of our dark side should we show and how much should we keep civil? And so, you know, I’m curious about that limit for you and what that tangibly looks like about that. I wanted to add something else because I may have given the wrong impression of before, but I like to be authentic as much as I can, and I like to let people get to know me as I am.
00:56:33:22 – 00:57:02:06 Unknown But I don’t usually do this with most people because I feel like I need a certain type of connection to reveal myself. So, for example, with most people, with my family or with my boyfriend’s family, I act in a way that is less authentic just because I feel like it’s not the right context or I can’t relate to them in this way, or they don’t share the same interests, or they don’t want to talk about certain topics as deeply as I do.
00:57:02:08 – 00:57:23:11 Unknown So I am myself in a way with like a very toned down, watered down version. And I don’t feel like I’m pretending. I just feel like I’m not letting you in as much as I would let someone else, if that makes sense. You know, I don’t feel like I’m pretending. I’m just not fully revealing myself, but in a different context with a different person.
00:57:23:11 – 00:57:45:04 Unknown I would. So I guess for me, North stars are authenticity and connection, which is why that compliments mean so much to me because I think that certain people can meet you on a deeper level than others can. And this goes back to self-awareness and their best experiences and what they’re like as people and what they’re comfortable with in social context.
00:57:45:04 – 00:58:39:23 Unknown To me, relationships and that’s fine. Again, women are different, but for me, these two go together and if I can have both and that makes me insanely happy. Yeah. If we look back at sort of your journey through education, through school, through family, through university, through finding psychology and all of those things, can you think of a time where you wish you had more support and what do you think we can do in society to make sure that people who may experience what you experience don’t have to experience it Again, That question makes sense.
00:58:40:01 – 00:59:15:20 Unknown It does. But my answer will not be what you probably looking for. That’s okay. Whenever I think of So whenever I think about the past, I wouldn’t change anything because whatever change you make ends up, changing the outcome so the person you are today and the person you would be in the future. So, for example, to answer your question, if I had more support, but I still be the person I am right now, would I still feel things as deeply, have this adversity, have this ability to handle adversity, and to sit with the pain by myself and to truly understand what’s happening in my mind?
00:59:15:22 – 00:59:42:17 Unknown Maybe not. Would I still have this desire to help people or to be there for them if I can, in some way? Maybe not. But I still have this desire to connect with people on social media because maybe I don’t feel as connected with people in my own life at the moment. And for some strange reason, it’s easier to find people who share your values or your interests that are on a different continent than people who live in the same city.
00:59:42:19 – 01:00:12:22 Unknown It’s such a weird world we live in. But if you ask me, I wouldn’t change anything from my past. But would I change things for others? Maybe. Maybe not. And here it gets tricky again, because obviously I think people should have support. We should create some some type of support that helps them when they need help. But maybe we should also teach people that it’s okay for them to handle adversity on their own or to try to make sense of it on their own as well.
01:00:13:00 – 01:00:32:11 Unknown So we should have some support, maybe some need more support, maybe others need less. They just need to know that someone is there or just to have like a weekly therapy session or something. But maybe not everyone needs a lot of support or people that are close to them and talk to them all the time. So I think it depends.
01:00:32:13 – 01:00:50:18 Unknown As with many things, I think solutions should be individualized or they should take into account the varies between individuals.
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