Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Milena—an educator and mom—about her earliest memories of being told by her teachers to take up more space. We talk about the internal journey that this message incited, and the personal exploration that led her to teaching communications and interpersonal relationship building to military professionals. We discuss how this experience led her to start writing her book about charisma, and why it’s important for young people everywhere to develop these skills from an early age.
Here is our slightly edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:09 – 00:00:29:22 Unknown Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed as a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following. I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:30:00 – 00:01:02:11 Unknown I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assess teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale, to speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems, to rethink what schools can be, what it should be.
00:01:02:15 – 00:01:37:14 Unknown When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Melina, an educator and mom, about her earliest memories of being told by her teachers to take up more space. We talk about the internal journey that this message incited and the personal exploration that led her to teach in communications and interpersonal relationship building to military professionals.
00:01:37:16 – 00:02:09:11 Unknown We discuss how this experience led her to start writing her book about charisma and why it’s important for young people everywhere to develop these skills from an early age. Here is our slightly edited conversation. As a child, I was different depending on the context. So at school, for example, I was maybe something that you could perceive as a shy child, a shy girl.
00:02:09:12 – 00:02:42:11 Unknown Whereas when I was free during the summer holidays or after school on the weekends, I was very extroverted and played with a lot of kids simultaneously playing hide and seek. Hide and seek all of us together, maybe like 30 people, 40 people altogether. And I remember also bringing to the surface a lot of leadership skills already at that level, organizing how we would play.
00:02:42:12 – 00:03:16:19 Unknown And this lacked completely when I was at school there, I did not show any leadership qualities or any like extroverted, more sociable skills. I was very reserved and I played with one friend, my best friend, and it was the two of us. And I’m so thankful that I had this amazing friend and maybe we both just preferred it that way in that group constellation of our class.
00:03:16:21 – 00:03:48:03 Unknown But it’s very interesting that it was so extremely different in these two situations. But the messaging that I received about how I was a student was that I was a good girl, I was a good student. I did everything that I had to do and gave my homework in time, did it very thoroughly, had a really pretty handwriting.
00:03:48:05 – 00:04:12:04 Unknown Yeah. So they encouraged this good girl behavior a lot. But they also said something which was you don’t take up so much space, you need to take up more space. And this to me was very confusing. I did not understand what they meant. What do you mean, take up space? What does that look like? What do I need to do?
00:04:12:06 – 00:04:59:01 Unknown How does it sound? What does it look like to take up more space? How much is more space? When is it too much? What is space? I did not understand these questions at all. As a little girl, when I just had this instruction handed to me. So what? That taught me, the being a good girl meant that it’s kind of came along with them doing things thoroughly in a pretty way and actually not taking up space because the guys, the boys usually who did take up a lot of space, they were doing the bare minimum when it came to homework and they did not have great handwriting, but they took up space.
00:04:59:01 – 00:05:18:15 Unknown And I even got an example sometimes like, Yeah, the piece takes up more space. You can take up more space. Look at that boy. And I was like, But no one says to him that he’s a good student. These two, they don’t go hand in hand at all. So as a child, for me, that was very confusing. Yes.
00:05:18:17 – 00:05:52:09 Unknown Yeah. I’m curious. So you grew up in Sweden, right? And this was the messaging you received there. Yes. And I’m kind of curious, like, you know, from my research and from my understanding, the the education system in Sweden seems very balanced. And it seems like they really care about young people and they give them a lot of space and free time to explore their minds.
00:05:52:11 – 00:06:20:23 Unknown And so this, you know, like what you’re sharing is very interesting because it kind of sounds like, you know, there was an expectation of how girls should act and how boys should act. And I’m kind of curious about those kinds of expectations. What other types of expectations did you feel like were given to you by the caregivers or the education system or by the culture in the country?
00:06:21:01 – 00:06:54:19 Unknown So this was a while ago that I wanted to share, and I believe everything you said. It’s completely correct. We do encourage students to explore, to learn who they are and use play as a way of learning more, more about themselves and more about the subjects and topics that we are teaching them, obviously. So that was true also at that moment I had a good education, so I’m not saying anything about that.
00:06:54:19 – 00:07:25:02 Unknown I learned everything that I needed to know. I it was free also on top of everything. So that’s just such an amazing luxury to be able to get a full education for free. And the only aspect that I am referring to is the social. This specific instruction take more space. Plus, you are a good student. You’re a good girl in that during that time, in my mind they didn’t click.
00:07:25:02 – 00:07:52:01 Unknown I couldn’t find the key of how to make these two fit together until much, much later in life. But when it comes to them and teaching us, encouraging us to keep searching for knowledge, being critical thinkers, that they did very well. And I have I don’t know how the education system has developed, like step by step from then on until now.
00:07:52:06 – 00:08:13:18 Unknown But what I can say is that now that my son is going to school and he’s just started now, this is in the fall, I believe it’s amazing. He has this amazing teacher and they are doing things that make him love school. So he never says that I don’t want to go to school. I want to stay home.
00:08:13:19 – 00:08:42:06 Unknown He loves going to school. He feels that it’s both somewhere where he gets to learn and feel successful and have everyday wins and also meet with his friends and play and have fun. So it’s absolutely like you said, there is balance there. Definitely. And this is, of course, individual experiences. I don’t know that everyone would feel that it’s this way.
00:08:42:08 – 00:09:22:23 Unknown Of course, I’ve heard of stories where children have not liked it at school. They don’t want to go there. And the schools have lacked in their abilities to help the children to change this around. But this is our experience right now. So that’s something I’m very, very grateful for. Yeah, I know that sounds really lovely and I’m kind of curious, like as you, you know, grew up from when you were younger to maybe I don’t know if it’s called the same in Sweden, but we call it like middle school or in high school.
00:09:23:00 – 00:10:25:06 Unknown And I’m kind of curious about those kinds of memories, you know, Do you remember any significant memories of social interactions with your peers or your teachers or your caregivers during maybe the upper levels of, you know, compulsory education? Anything that you know, had a lasting impact on you or your self narrative or your life trajectory? Well, when I knew that I was going to switch schools from the upper classes of the middle school and go to the high school, that was a very liberating chapter change for me, because then I could drop and leave behind the shy girl label that I felt had stuck to me for all of these years and just become another
00:10:25:06 – 00:10:59:20 Unknown person because and these new students of pupils, they didn’t know me, the teachers didn’t know me. Nobody knew me at my new school so I could be this version of myself that had been brewing for quite some time and just release her and make her a part of me. This wasn’t, like I said, become another person. No, it was become a true version of myself without being held back because people would be surprised by my defying of that old label.
00:10:59:22 – 00:11:29:20 Unknown So that was very liberating. And I loved that change. And chapters. And in schools as it is, it comes to how the caregivers and teachers handle this period. I believe that they could have told us more about this, that now you can be who you want to be. I don’t know that everyone comes to this realization on their own.
00:11:29:22 – 00:11:57:20 Unknown This was something that I had been thinking about a lot because I wasn’t really happy with how I had cemented this role for myself during all of these years. But maybe someone else could have needed to hear this who had another label put on them. Maybe someone had thought of themselves as, you know, not a very good student or not so focused or lacking goals and direction.
00:11:57:20 – 00:12:35:11 Unknown It could be anything. Something that’s maybe acceptable for a wild child who loves to play and just kick a ball around the schoolyard. But maybe they want to, like, become more serious with their education and they could actually be more encouraged that you decide which part of your identity to focus more on. And now with the chapter change coming, you can use this to your advantage in a most conscious and intentional way that never, ever came up.
00:12:35:11 – 00:13:01:04 Unknown No one spoke to us in that way. But I think that pupils that age would be ready to hear something like that. I would have appreciated it a lot because I thought that I was a big we heard going around with all of these thoughts, but I’m definitely going to speak with my son in these terms when I feel that he is mature enough for it that well.
00:13:01:04 – 00:13:47:03 Unknown How do you see yourself during this time? Do you like that? What would you like more of? What would you care to do less of or be less of? Well, do that. How can you do that and and be like a safe space for him to explore these questions together with me. But I would also really love if a teacher could do that or a coach in his class or whatever, an adult who is great at teaching kids who could also talk to them about these topics, about these identity related topics.
00:13:47:05 – 00:14:17:13 Unknown Yeah, for sure. And you know, like I can relate so much to what you just shared. I think I’ve been in therapy for many, many years, and something that I talk to my therapist is about how every single time I got to move to another country or move to another school or a new environment that I could totally rewrite, who I was because I was never fully happy with how I was presenting, who I was to the world.
00:14:17:19 – 00:14:44:22 Unknown So I can really relate to what you’re talking about of like, you know, feeling liberated enough to explore this rebellious part of you to kind of let go of that good girl label and do what you want it to do. And you kind of talk about that, like when you’re in your summer vacations, how in school you were this very sweet, kind, good girl who did all the things that she was expected to do.
00:14:44:22 – 00:15:28:10 Unknown And then in the summers, you know, you would kind of let go. And so, yeah, I think that’s really wonderful. And I’m kind of curious, like, do you have any memories about or like stories of what people would say to you? Like any kind of specific words about, you know, this this instruction of taking up space? Right. I’m I’m just kind of curious, like what what were the words they used or, you know, how did they give you this feedback?
00:15:28:12 – 00:15:55:17 Unknown And so it was during the annual development conversations that we all our students have them with their teachers. How is it going with their with the topics, the subjects that we learn at school? How is math? How is Swedish and English and so on? And that was when they also said that you’re you’re really good girl. You do everything that you need to do with your homework.
00:15:55:17 – 00:16:31:05 Unknown It is really good and so on. But you should take up more space. And I didn’t ask, what do you mean? I would have asked it now. I was just like, okay, okay. And and then I just I was left wondering what do they mean? And so on. Like I said in the beginning. But as I started to get closer to when we were switching schools at one point and and everyone was going to do it because it was just the end of one class and the next one would begin.
00:16:31:07 – 00:17:00:21 Unknown But this was not the high school level. It was earlier anyway. We we were all already at the end of the semester and I had somehow maybe started to internalize some of my future self qualities already, but I hadn’t really left them out at school. But at some point I did something that was not within the usual character that I would show at school.
00:17:00:23 – 00:17:29:13 Unknown And to me it felt natural because I had somehow already started to internalize this, especially at home and in my free time. But it was completely new to everyone around me. So one boy actually said, Who gave you that air? If you translated word for word, which basically means like, who let you do that? Who allowed you or who gave you permission to be that way?
00:17:29:15 – 00:17:59:14 Unknown So that was a real slap in my face mentally that I was starting to do something that felt so me and I was pushed back instantaneously, like, stay in your place, know your place, don’t try to be somebody. And that actually probably held me back quite a while. And that’s why I also we should talk with our kids about how to express themselves.
00:17:59:18 – 00:18:35:01 Unknown We don’t know how one simple comment a few words can affect another person and especially as a child, so as to remember that. I still remember that a lot. But now I am quite thankful that that happened because it’s given me a lot of insights about the personality psychology and the communication skills and like so much that I can use and turn all of those things that I perceived as weaknesses into my strengths.
00:18:35:03 – 00:19:01:09 Unknown So maybe it was a gift, like a blessing in disguise, but right then I was like, I felt the air go out from me and yeah, so talk to the kids, both as teachers and as parents. I think about how you express yourself because you don’t know how another person will feel from your words. It’s not just words.
00:19:01:09 – 00:19:38:04 Unknown It’s it’s a message. A message that we send to another person about which we think is them according to us. And it’s not up to us to decide who someone else is supposed to be. It’s up to themselves. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. You know, I think we there’s so many external labels from society that are given to us, but rarely and very seldomly and in very small quantities.
00:19:38:06 – 00:20:28:14 Unknown Are we actually allowed to create our own labels or identify ourselves the way that we would like to be perceived or identify out by other people? And so, yeah, I think that’s really amazing. And how you articulated that is so, so wonderful. And yeah, and so I’m kind of curious, you know, like after school and I’m wondering, you know, what are some of like the career choices that you made and some of the challenges that you’ve faced in this context of finding your identity and finding your voice and, you know, actually learning how to take up the space that you would like to take up.
00:20:28:18 – 00:20:57:07 Unknown You know, I’m kind of curious, like, what are some career decisions that you made, some life decisions after school? Yeah. Yeah. So things changed a lot in high school where I felt that I started to be more myself. I was still more an introvert and an extrovert. I mean, that’s a personality trait. So it’s been that way always.
00:20:57:07 – 00:21:33:01 Unknown And it’s probably going to be like that always. But I learned that there is something called envy first, and then everything fell into place. I was like, okay. So I am not sometimes extroverted and sometimes introverted and schizophrenic. No, it’s not something wrong with me. It’s actually a lot of people who recognize this this way to describe personality and the word, which is basically that the context will have an effect on which traits you feel are natural in that specific situation.
00:21:33:03 – 00:22:03:06 Unknown And different things will give you energy or take energy from you, depending on things like what your mood that day, how at ease you feel in that situation which people you have around you, and how you are all hanging out together. If there’s a lot of people or a few people like all of that will affect if you gain energy from this interaction or if you feel like you’re drained of energy from the interaction.
00:22:03:07 – 00:23:01:07 Unknown So a lot of things were crystal clear thanks to receiving this description of personality as the amp of her personality type. So yeah, but also that when we come up to that age it’s not longer and things like you just happened to be in the same class and therefore you hang out with these children. It’s not only that which decides who we hang out with, but we are old enough to transport ourselves to different places and situations we can play alone or we can hang out at our friends houses, go to other cities, stay up late, and so on, which also brings a whole other level of freedom to explore and understand more about ourselves,
00:23:01:07 – 00:23:22:03 Unknown about what we’re like, what type of people we actually like to hang out with. Not because they happen to live on our street or they happen to be in our class, but because we actually like them, even if they live on the other side of town. So then it’s much easier to also understand, Well, what do I want in a friend?
00:23:22:05 – 00:24:23:04 Unknown What do I value in and direction? What do I want in my friendships? What do I have to contribute? What can I give and what do I feel I need to have as a criteria for friendships? So yeah, all of that also started to become more relevant and accessible thanks to just becoming older. I think that’s so wonderful because ah, I can definitely relate to that quite a bit because this idea of not having to socialize with people because of a fixed circumstance or situation, but that you actually now have a choice in developing the relationships and friendships that actually fulfill you or that bring you joy, you know, and that.
00:24:23:06 – 00:24:49:00 Unknown And so yeah, I can definitely relate to that. And I’m curious how that crossed over into like the career that you chose or what you decided to study maybe in college or, you know, I know that you were a corporate trainer for a very long time. And so I’m kind of curious, like how you got into the career that you chose ultimately.
00:24:49:02 – 00:25:26:12 Unknown Yeah. So when I discovered that the area of expertise of psychology exists and that you can study it at university, that felt like an obvious choice for me because that’s basically what I’ve been figuring out and trying to solve on my own, at least a lot of the things that we then learned about at psychology with university. So that felt like the completely right choice for me.
00:25:26:12 – 00:26:00:04 Unknown And I went along with psychology and then I also discovered rhetoric. So I topped it off with rhetoric as well. But I didn’t really know how I would make this into a profession for myself because I was not interested in the psychopath logical part of psychology, like being a psychologist or a psychotherapist. I was more interested in the motivational psychology, emotional psychology, developmental psychology, personality psychology.
00:26:00:06 – 00:26:33:00 Unknown And I really didn’t know what I could do with what I had learned and still be able to work with these aspects of psychology. So I just thought that, this, I’m good. I’m not going to find a job for myself, Like I’m going to be unemployed for the rest of my life. I really thought that at that time I had not developed this big possibility of what you can actually do with these topics.
00:26:33:06 – 00:26:56:07 Unknown I didn’t know that you could be like an entrepreneur and teach people as your own business owner and all of that. I learned much later right then and there. It was like, You need to find a job that’s very appealing. The way that you can have someone pay you to do something is to have a job and be employed.
00:26:56:09 – 00:27:23:23 Unknown So I, I searched for a lot of jobs, but it was very hard to showcase my worth as a student who had just finished studying these topics that were not so practical. It was more theoretical and it wasn’t. Yeah, it wasn’t so encouraging to just get a lot of no’s during that time. And eventually I was like, What?
00:27:24:02 – 00:27:48:14 Unknown Maybe now is the best time ever before actually find a job to do something that I and my sister had been talking about when we were younger, and that was to join the military for basic training. Yeah. So I was like, This is now before I actually found a job where I sucked into working full time and then, you know, have a family and so on and so on.
00:27:48:16 – 00:28:18:02 Unknown Now is the perfect time for that. So I applied and I got an extra expected, except that it wasn’t just three months basic training. I liked it. I stayed and I was I stayed to study the interpreter program and becoming a military interpreter. So that’s how I got into the military. And you said corporate training before, but it was actually within the military only.
00:28:18:04 – 00:28:49:01 Unknown So I was since I had studied psychology and rhetoric, which was very relevant to when we needed to teach, like the conversations, skills, building relationships, questioning techniques. All of that is based on specifically psychology. So it was extremely relevant that I had studied that at university. And when we ourselves as interpreters also got those courses, I was like, I recognize this.
00:28:49:03 – 00:29:27:11 Unknown And I would like to work with this. So after a couple of years, that’s where I started working and teaching these topics to fellow military colleagues. That’s amazing and I’m so sorry I messed up. No, it’s fine. Meaning I think I was I was thinking systems and I don’t know. Sorry. Okay. Yeah, I’m very sorry about that. Okay, So how did that how did you start focusing on charisma specifically?
00:29:27:13 – 00:29:55:07 Unknown Well, it was something that I started to discover already then when I was teaching and coaching that, yes, we taught a lot of practical tools like do this. When you have this goal, you can become better at this if you do the specific thing and all of that was external tools that you can apply, Anyone can apply them.
00:29:55:09 – 00:30:23:00 Unknown But for some of my students it was very natural and effortless. I didn’t have to give them so much instruction. Maybe for others, even if they did everything completely right, it felt a little bit mechanical and not completely believable what they were doing, even though I could give them like a pass. Yes, you did everything correctly. You pass.
00:30:23:00 – 00:30:57:09 Unknown But it wasn’t, you know, the feeling wasn’t there. And I started thinking about charisma. We actually talked about this with my colleagues. Like, some people just have that it they have something that makes them like natural talents with other people. And that’s why I started thinking about it. Then I did not have it in my mind right then to write a book about it, but a few years passed and I worked at another company and that’s where I’m working now.
00:30:57:09 – 00:31:29:21 Unknown Also my day job as a project manager and I’m doing a lot of Agile as well and it’s amazing. But what I feel has been missing in my life is teaching and teaching these specific topics, and I still find myself drawn to books about it and podcasts about it and just trying to stay on top of things. And then I got like, But this is what I really want to do.
00:31:29:21 – 00:31:59:00 Unknown I want to coach, I want to teach, and I don’t want to eliminate that part out from my life just because I’m a consultant within project management. So I started to write things down my ideas, and soon enough it was a lot of text. So I decided to not write a book. But I struggled a bit with calling it Charisma.
00:31:59:05 – 00:32:27:11 Unknown It felt a bit. I was afraid I would be perceived as very arrogant if I gave myself up to be like a charisma expert or something. So I’ve really, like, hesitated, like, should I call it charisma? Is this what I’m going to put into the world? Maybe I should just say it’s communication skills or team development or body language, but it just didn’t click with me.
00:32:27:16 – 00:32:55:21 Unknown I was like, Yes, sure, I’ll be writing some parts about this. But what I’m really interested in and fascinated about is this inner vibe, this radiance from inside and out, which makes a person stand out from being mechanical, of being effortless and natural, or just silently coming into a room and changing the whole atmosphere and vibe of the whole place.
00:32:55:23 – 00:33:22:11 Unknown That’s what I’m interested in. So I can’t call it anything else. It’s charisma, that’s it. And once I started talking about it for what it is, calling it charisma and acknowledging that yes, we diminish is charisma. Everything just fell into place. And I got so much inspiration to keep writing my book. I, I knew what to write on social media.
00:33:22:11 – 00:33:52:18 Unknown I had been really hesitant about writing on social media before that, but then I would I couldn’t hold myself back or like, Yes, now I want to write about it. Now I really want to show up on threads, for example, and writing about charisma and it’s something I feel really, really proud to do also, because this is the way I can come and give my true message to the world, not a disguised form of it, but really what I want to say.
00:33:52:19 – 00:34:43:05 Unknown And that’s the way it’s going to be the most valuable to everyone who resonates with it as well. Not if I diminish it, not if I shrink it, but when I come with it full force with what it is. Yeah, for sure. And you know something that I see in a lot of people’s narratives and even the advice that I hear about from, you know, thought leaders that I expect or respect or even just things that I see on social media is that, you know, we have to create for the world what we did not have when we were younger and, you know, when you talk about as a young girl being given this message
00:34:43:05 – 00:35:21:13 Unknown to take up space and you kind of, you know, eventually coming into that, but, you know, writing this book about charisma, it almost feels like you’re right. You wrote this book or you’re writing this book for that girl who was given that instruction to take up space. Absolutely. So that’s definitely part of it, because this would have definitely been the book of my dreams as a little girl growing up.
00:35:21:15 – 00:35:48:04 Unknown Even as a teenager, I would have loved this so much and be like, my God, this is the best book that has ever been written. That’s what I would have felt because it feels like I’m partly writing it for myself for that little version of myself. But of course, if I felt that way, other have also felt that way and feel that way.
00:35:48:06 – 00:36:14:18 Unknown And if that version of myself would have resonated with this, I’m very sure that a lot of other people will also resonate with this. And therefore, I’m I’m very confident that this will bring a lot of value to a lot of people. And it doesn’t have to be that someone feels insecure or shy or trying to get rid of a label that they don’t like.
00:36:14:20 – 00:36:42:12 Unknown It doesn’t have to be anything like that at all. It could be just that you want to explore the more ethereal parts of charisma combined with, the more external instructions and external tools, and see how they, you know, how they are connected as something like a whole where everything is connected. It’s a new perspective on this topic that frankly fascinates a lot of people.
00:36:42:14 – 00:37:13:15 Unknown So I think it doesn’t have to be that extreme. But yes, a part of me will feel so satisfied for having given that gift to my past. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I definitely would have benefited from this book. You know, I remember a lot of family members used to give me this sort of feedback of like, you’re so slow, you’re so boring.
00:37:13:15 – 00:37:41:20 Unknown There’s nothing dynamic about you. I’m so sorry. That’s hard to hear. Yeah. Yes, it’s very hard to hear. But, you know, that was kind of like part of the culture. And I think so much of my family tried to put me in situations where, you know, they could bring out a personality like I was just so. Yeah, very boring, very quiet, very slow, not very intelligent.
00:37:41:22 – 00:38:22:06 Unknown And so it really did take a lot of self excavation and exploration to figure it out. And so I actually want to ask you about what how you define what charisma is and, you know, what are some general pieces of advice that you would give to somebody who does kind of receive that message of you’re not dynamic enough or you’re boring or there’s nothing interesting about you or, you know, those kinds of things.
00:38:22:06 – 00:38:49:05 Unknown What are some how would you define charisma and what are some general pieces of advice you would give them? Absolutely. To sort of develop it. So I’m sure that many of us have heard a definition of charisma as something that is innate. It’s almost like something gifted to us by the gods or something like that. And this would mean that either you have charisma or you don’t have it deal with it.
00:38:49:06 – 00:39:21:21 Unknown And I just don’t believe that because I’ve seen that there are too many instances where a person during the right circumstance with the right nourishment has just started flourishing and had all of the things that previously lacked in his or her circumstances to start believing in themselves, to start allowing their true self to shine through and take up space.
00:39:21:23 – 00:39:58:23 Unknown If we use that phrase and just, you know, be this person who they are the best at being and they will feel the best from being this version of themselves, but also they will be able to bring the best to an interaction that they take part in thanks to how good they feel about being their true self. So yeah, first of all, I just don’t agree with the definitions that say that charisma is innate and if you don’t have it, you don’t have it.
00:39:59:00 – 00:40:29:17 Unknown No We all have this little. So how would you define charisma? Yeah. So my definition that I’ve working on currently is that charisma is an irresistible vibe fueled by life, energy and deriving from a connection to life itself. It’s both an enabler and a reflection of us living in alignment with our life vision and experiencing flow in our endeavors and attracting meaningful relationships into our life.
00:40:29:18 – 00:41:05:17 Unknown So it’s a long definition, but it touches on a lot of the things that I have felt and discovered and learned and just reason to myself, too, when it comes to charisma like irresistible vibe, for example. This touches on that. It’s not an irresistible appearance, an irresistible face or body or an irresistible image. It’s a vibe. It’s something that is on an energy level.
00:41:05:23 – 00:41:35:09 Unknown So it comes from the person, radiates from the inside and out, and a vibe can also be felt. So it is felt by other people. It is also something that’s hard to put your finger on, almost tangible intangible. It is. Sometimes you can’t even explain it with words. Why all of a sudden you feel a certain way because a person has entered the room.
00:41:35:11 – 00:42:21:11 Unknown But that’s what it does. It can shift the dynamic in a group, the sensations that you have within your own body because you’re in the presence of this person that you perceive as very charismatic and the overall energy in the space in a room, because this person is there. So yeah. And when it comes to connection to life and life energy, that is also associated with being present, being in the moment, and being here with all of your senses which are given to us, I believe, to experience life and express life, allowing life to express itself through us.
00:42:21:12 – 00:43:01:06 Unknown So we actually almost surrender and give our body and our senses so that life can keep expanding. So as you can hear, I will touch on many of the more spiritual aspects of charisma as well in my book. So this this goes far beyond charisma is an innate gift. There. So yeah, yeah, that’s it. Yeah. Well, so I think I was reading a summary of a book by Robert Green, I think it’s called It’s Something With Seduction.
00:43:01:06 – 00:43:26:04 Unknown I think it has something to do with Out of Seduction. And he Is it the art of seduction? I think so, yeah. But I read that book anyway. So I think it’s, it’s a very big book, so it’s really like big and thorough. And I think it brings forth a lot of very valuable insights. So I would recommend anyone who is interested in these topics to read that book.
00:43:26:04 – 00:43:55:03 Unknown Definitely. And it’s also packed with historical examples. So it’s a really fascinating read. Yeah. And so when you were talking about like living in the Enlightenment and I was kind of curious about, you know, what is the sort of general advice to people who want to live in alignment with, you know, their life vision and things like that and develop charisma.
00:43:55:03 – 00:44:23:10 Unknown And I know in that book he kind of talks about various different archetypes of people of, you know, if you are this type of person, this is a way that you need to develop your skills. Or if you’re this kind of person, this is what you need. You know? And so I’m curious, like from his perspective, it felt like there wasn’t a general piece of advice to help people build charisma.
00:44:23:10 – 00:44:55:02 Unknown It was more very I don’t want to say prescriptive, but he did kind of give you like a departure point of if this is your type, then this is the skills that you need to develop. And so I think, you know, I’m curious from what you’re writing, do you have a general piece of advice of how people can develop charisma, or do you think that it is more of, Well, if you’re here, you need do this, or if you’re here, you need to do that.
00:44:55:06 – 00:45:32:10 Unknown Yeah. So I agree that it’s dangerous to give one piece of advice that would always suit everybody. I don’t think that exists. And so I am very much more for the well, we are all different and different things work differently well for all of us because we are individuals and we’re unique. So something that works extremely well for one person might work very poorly for somebody else who tries to do the exact same thing and replicate the whole process and everything.
00:45:32:12 – 00:46:20:00 Unknown And that’s just that we are different. We need to know ourselves. So if I came with any general advice, it would be to know yourself, know who you are and know what are your goals, know what are your strengths and weaknesses. Not because somebody else has said that it’s a strength or weakness, but because you feel like, Well, if I’m to be that ideal version of myself, then I need to work on this to strengthen these things that my future self has, or I will need to start being stricter with myself because this and this and this habit are actually ruining it, ruining stuff for me and getting in the way of my plan.
00:46:20:00 – 00:46:42:06 Unknown So, you know, it can be anything and that no one can give you the correct answers to you. You need to do the introspective work and have the self-awareness to know what do I want to be? Who do I want to be? Who is my ideal self? And to reach that version of myself, what do I need to do?
00:46:42:07 – 00:47:25:17 Unknown And yeah, of course a coach can help you along with that to help you ask yourself the right questions so that you know that you’re headed in the right direction. Hold you accountable. All of these things, you can get help with that. But in the end, it is the person themselves who who knows the whole situation, who knows who they are inside and who needs to make the final decisions about what is charisma to me, In what way do I want to be charismatic and why and how long will certain characteristics qualities keep benefiting me?
00:47:25:17 – 00:47:56:20 Unknown When do I need to update myself? All of that. It’s to each and every one of us. So my second general piece of advice is to keep updating yourself throughout your whole life. You’re never done, and that does not mean that you’re not good enough. It just means that you need to constantly grow. Because if you’re not growing, you’re stagnating, and that can in a while start feeling like you’re stuck.
00:47:56:22 – 00:48:37:16 Unknown And it’s not fun to feel stuck. You need to keep discovering new sides to yourself and allowing yourself to take in new experiences and challenge yourself. Also, not staying where it’s always comfortable and convenient and easy because that’s a sure way to become kind of irrelevant in a fast paced society. But also it’s it’s going to make you feel like you could have given more and you chose to stay where you were.
00:48:37:22 – 00:49:01:02 Unknown And the world just kept moving and you stopped growing. And that’s not a fun feeling to have. So my general piece of advice here would be keep growing, keep learning, and keep following your own curiosity and joy in this process that because someone else says that these qualities are important to learn or these topics are important to know.
00:49:01:04 – 00:49:30:13 Unknown So maybe that’s true. Maybe some analyst knows that. Okay, you need to know everything about AI or machine or whatever it can be. And that’s just, you know, keeping yourself updated about things that are very relevant in our society globally right now. But when it comes to growing yourself, that is up to you to curate and and tailor make your own roadmap.
00:49:30:15 – 00:50:21:16 Unknown And that’s a fun process. That’s something we should feel joy about because we get to create ourselves this way. That’s basically what we’re doing. We’re creating ourselves thanks to our ability to learn and grow. Absolutely. And so, you know, I think there’s a very beautiful through line here. And that’s really about, you know, self-definition and finding the power and confidence to, you know, define who you are and to constantly grow upwards and to update and to constantly look within yourself, to be in alignment with who you want to be.
00:50:21:18 – 00:50:51:13 Unknown And, you know, I think what you were talking about with son of, you know, asking him questions about, you know, does he like who he’s becoming, Are there things that he did not like or things that he would like to add in to who he is? You know, these are all very important questions that, you know, teachers and parents and coaches can do for our young people.
00:50:51:15 – 00:52:00:06 Unknown And so, like my final kind of question to you is, with AI and technology improving like exponentially every single day and, you know, the economic changes kind of happening also, what do you think we can do as a society or as like, what can education systems do both at school and at home do to nurture that ability for our young people to be introspective and to identify their own charisma and to define their own life purpose and trajectory, Like, what are we not doing now in school systems or at home that we should be doing to nurture this skill in our young people going forward?
00:52:00:08 – 00:52:33:16 Unknown So first of all, when it comes to developing skill sets of charisma, some people do it naturally because their environment already naturally supports this. They are encouraged to try out a lot of different roles. They are encouraged to maybe try out being a leader because they go to soccer and they are forced to rotate on roles such as being the team captain and so on.
00:52:33:18 – 00:53:04:06 Unknown But not everyone goes to and not everyone maybe gets to try as many different roles and therefore try on what labels and what characteristics can I keep developing and so on. Not everyone has the possibility to drive their kid around to like football and theater and ice skating and ice hockey and so on. It takes a lot of time and money sometimes to be able to do that.
00:53:04:06 – 00:53:42:19 Unknown You if there is the option to do that, I think it’s really great to expose your child to as many different situations as possible and allowing them to learn and explore, ask questions and encourage questions about different expressions of life. I would say all of this like different work roles, different topics that we can study, different sports, all of that are different expressions of life itself as well.
00:53:42:21 – 00:54:32:08 Unknown So the more we and put ourselves and put our children into as many different and diverse situations as possible, the more they get to experience life itself too. So that is one thing. But also just having conversations with our children on a level where we’re not treating them as an inferior child, where you teach them something and where you are the one who has answers and come with the message of truth, but rather as an equal, where you guide them into discovering more and also let them guide you into discovering more through their eyes and encouraging them to be a leader.
00:54:32:08 – 00:55:09:10 Unknown Sometimes in the interactions that they have with people who maybe are a few steps ahead of them in some aspects, but in some aspects they might be a few steps ahead. Like, for example, I have many times told my son because this is true also that he is much better. I am at building things out of Lego and that is a really easy in for me to help encourage leadership skills with him and pedagogical skills where he gets to instruct me and teach me things about Lego, for example.
00:55:09:10 – 00:55:39:15 Unknown So that’s very much like getting down to his level where he understands what we’re talking about. He gets to feel very successful. It’s easy wins that I can create for him. Having him talk about something that he’s passionate about and having me listen and be engaged and want to hear his perspective and willing to learn from him so that learning from him also becomes a natural part for him.
00:55:39:15 – 00:56:08:04 Unknown That he can teach, it can lead, he can instruct. There’s nothing, nothing weird about that. It’s structural, it’s effortless. So I’m trying to find as many things like that as I possibly can, where I can encourage him to be more of a leader, but not with that. With him feeling threatened in situation where he has to be a leader, but he doesn’t feel comfortable about it.
00:56:08:06 – 00:56:42:14 Unknown No, I want him to feel successful when I try to push his comfort zone. When we push the comfort zone, the biggest factor that leads to success in my belief is that a person actually feels that they can win. They can do this right, and they are not going to give their heart and soul and something and be met with a punishment or pain of some sort because that will just backfire.
00:56:42:16 – 00:57:15:11 Unknown And it really pains me to hear about how you want to talk too, with like not interesting enough and all of that. That sure does not create an environment where a young person can explore themselves and express themselves as who they are. That is just the opposite of what you should do. And it was not your fault that this kept reinforcing itself, if that is what happened.
00:57:15:13 – 00:57:54:16 Unknown But really it’s the fault of the adults who should have known better in my opinion, they should have known better. And rather than saying these things in that way, I think they should have tried to be really diligent in finding situations where they could help you to find what you are good at just because something is valued like, okay, this quality is something that our children have to possess and we need to force them to develop these qualities if they don’t come naturally to them.
00:57:54:18 – 00:58:37:20 Unknown That does not mean that those qualities are the only valuable qualities that exist, and by only focusing on them, we might rather miss a lot of very important and valuable qualities that could have been nourished and brought forward. And we had made something that the child was really proud of. And with so many different things, like, for example, in some in some circles, something can be really valued, and in other circles that same quality is frowned upon or just not interesting.
00:58:37:22 – 00:59:13:15 Unknown And it’s the opposite with some other quality. And it’s just like a lottery game where you happen to end up and the same qualities that were not brought to the surface, for example, in your case, the talents and the hidden gems that did not get the chance to flourish because of those circumstances. Maybe they would have flourished in other circumstances because they would have been seen for what they are and they would have been encouraged and brought to the surface and been labeled as valuable and welcome.
00:59:13:17 – 00:59:40:19 Unknown And that’s what we want to create. We want to see the child as unique individual who has something unique to contribute to the world. We are all unique and we cannot be made to feel like we lack something because we are not the same as some, you know, frame that we’re supposed to fit on a box of these box thinking ages are over.
00:59:40:19 – 01:00:09:17 Unknown We need to start thinking about how we can rather encourage a person to be their own unique individual in a powerful way. That is how we can create the best possible society. And my belief, because instead of people feeling bad about themselves for lacking something, they would feel good about themselves because they have something unique to contribute to the world.
01:00:09:19 – 01:00:18:15 Unknown Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.