Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I chat with SJ—a former classroom teacher, LGBTQ+ Inclusion Expert, and DEIB trainer—about their experience being “the new kid.” We talk about how their experience of moving across states every few years impacted their social relationships, and how their biracial and transgender identities didn’t make it easier. We discuss what led them to education, as well as what made them leave the classroom, and what now fuels their mission to creating spaces of inclusion and belonging for all.
Here is our edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:04 – 00:00:29:00 Unknown Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed as a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety. I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned in the decades following. I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:29:02 – 00:01:00:15 Unknown I design curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems, to rethink what schools can be, what it should be.
00:01:00:18 – 00:01:35:21 Unknown When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I chat with SJ, a former classroom teacher, LGBTQ plus inclusion expert and DEIB trainer about their experience being the new kid. We talk about how their experience of moving across states every few years impacted their social relationships and how their biracial and transgender identities didn’t make that easier.
00:01:35:23 – 00:02:14:07 Unknown We discuss what led them to education as well as what made them leave the classroom and what now fuels their mission to creating spaces of inclusion and belonging for all. Here is our edited conversation. Yeah. So when I was growing up and younger, I was super shy. Like, very, very shy, very reserved. I was like, always the kid in class that was like kind of trying not to stick out and didn’t want to ever volunteer to answer a question or anything like that.
00:02:14:08 – 00:02:49:15 Unknown I was always like, mortified to be called on and was very introverted. I loved school and I loved learning and I was very studious and and enjoyed that process. But at school, I was I felt kind of invisible because I wanted to be in a way. I think for me, it was a coping mechanism for a lot of different things that were going on in my life and things that I couldn’t even like have words to explain were going on at the time.
00:02:49:17 – 00:03:17:01 Unknown And so for me, school was a safe space in some ways, but also a place where I could kind of just blend in and I didn’t have to stand out. And that that was good for me. But I also grew up moving around a lot. My dad is an immigrant and he came to the U.S. during the late seventies, early eighties, and his dream was always to become a CEO.
00:03:17:01 – 00:03:42:00 Unknown And that was like he was chasing that dream like my entire life. And he eventually got there. But he was very ambitious, and so my family moved a lot. I think I moved eight times when I was growing up, so there was a lot of moving and I was always the new kid. And that was really hard for me because I was so shy and introverted and I didn’t want any attention drawn to me.
00:03:42:00 – 00:04:15:00 Unknown But it always by way of being new, it was always like, Who’s this new kid in class? And like, where did you come from? And all these different questions. And so I always felt really uncomfortable in those scenarios, and it always took me a little bit of time, too, to make friends and and to get to a point where I felt okay socially in school because I just was like, so shy and I didn’t want to like, have any attention drawn to me at all.
00:04:15:02 – 00:04:41:19 Unknown Yeah. When you say that your your father was an immigrant, where did he immigrate from? Yeah, he immigrated from Pakistan. okay. And when you say he really wanted to be a CEO, do you mean like, he was looking to find or establish his own company or looking for a role as a CEO in a different company? Yeah.
00:04:41:19 – 00:04:57:13 Unknown He was looking for a role as a CEO in a different company, but he kind of had to, like, work his way up the ladder. So he started out like working in the food service industry and that’s like what he was doing for a long time. And I mean, he worked as like a manager at a pizza place.
00:04:57:13 – 00:05:34:18 Unknown And like then from there, like, worked at their corporate office and then kind of like really worked his way up to being able to like, manage stores in certain regions and then like eventually made it to being a CEO later in life. But he worked his way up in in the fast food industry. And how did his sort of, I guess, goal or dreams sort of impact, I guess, the the family dynamic in your home?
00:05:34:19 – 00:06:05:14 Unknown And I know you mentioned like you were always shy and because you were always the new kid, probably because, you know, he was moving around a lot to, you know, mobilize upward and find that role. And I’m wondering in what other ways did that kind of impact your family dynamic or like the messaging that you received from your like about yourself and things like that?
00:06:05:16 – 00:06:30:06 Unknown Yeah, I mean, it was never like a discussion amongst the family if we were going to move or not. It was like, this is happening. It was never like, you know, we never had a choice in it. It was just like he wanted to chase this dream and he was the provider or for my family. My mom was a stay at home mom and had the, you know, the privilege of of doing that.
00:06:30:07 – 00:06:55:15 Unknown I have two siblings. So I was the the middle child of of two siblings. And so, you know, I think that impacted me a lot when I was younger because I really hated it. I was like, I don’t want to move. I just made friends. I just got comfortable here. Like, I don’t want to have to uproot my life every, you know, few years and have to start over again.
00:06:55:17 – 00:07:13:15 Unknown And my parents always kind of like framed it as like an adventure. Like, now we’re on to another place in our adventure, and now we get to live somewhere else and see what that’s like and meet people from, you know, different areas. And we can always go back and visit where we lived before. And, you know, they tried to like be very positive about it.
00:07:13:15 – 00:07:35:11 Unknown But I think it was really hard on the whole family, you know, all of us in different ways. But my mom was, you know, the main caretaker, my dad worked a lot and traveled a lot for work. And so my mom was really the one that was raising all of us and running us to different activities and, you know, all of that.
00:07:35:11 – 00:08:02:04 Unknown And, you know, I think for her, moving was really tough also because she didn’t have a support system, you know, places that we were moving, you know, and stuff like that. So and didn’t have a lot of support in like getting rooted places. So I think, you know, she she struggled a lot with that and I’m sure also struggled a lot with like the unpredictability of it.
00:08:02:04 – 00:08:33:11 Unknown You know, it kind of was just like, like we need to talk to you about something, you know? And we always knew that that meant like, all right, where are we going next at this point? So I’m sure, you know, that was hard on her in different ways. And I mean, I’m sure even my dad, like making those sacrifices probably was not easy, an easy thing to do and to see us having to go through like hardship, you know, as a result of those decisions, I’m sure was was tough on my parents.
00:08:33:12 – 00:08:54:07 Unknown But, you know, for me, I really didn’t appreciate it when I was a kid. But now, looking back, I really do appreciate that I had so many different experiences growing up and it made me a really flexible person, somebody that can adapt to change really easily. I have learned to come out of my shell a lot more around new groups of people.
00:08:54:09 – 00:09:14:03 Unknown I have friends all over the United States. I have, you know, lives all over and have experience different cultures and different climates and, you know, all that. Whereas like when I was younger, I was just like, I just want to live in one place for my life, you know, like all my friends were like, yeah, I’m like, you know, growing up in this house.
00:09:14:03 – 00:09:40:20 Unknown And my parents, you know, have raised me in this house. And I could never, like, say that about where I lived. And so I think when I was younger, I just again wanted to kind of blend in and be like everybody else. But now I really appreciate that I didn’t have that. And as an adult, that also has made me kind of flighty when it comes to staying anywhere for too long.
00:09:40:22 – 00:09:59:19 Unknown I’m I currently live in Baltimore, Maryland, and I’ve been here for four years before this. I was in D.C. for about four years and then before that I was in Texas. So, I mean, as an adult, I’ve also moved around a lot because it’s just that’s what I know. And that’s what like even now kind of feels more comfortable to me.
00:09:59:19 – 00:10:42:12 Unknown And I, I also just get tired of places a little bit more than others, I think. But I, I definitely like, appreciate the upsides to moving so much as a kid now more than I did when I was growing up. Yeah, you know, I can really relate to that just because, you know, I had a single immigrant mom who, you know, we were just constantly moving and it wasn’t like necessarily cities, but it was different neighborhoods and, you know, because we always had to follow the job opportunities.
00:10:42:14 – 00:11:34:12 Unknown And I remember at some point realizing that I had moved so often when I was younger, and then also that mirroring in my adult life as well, because just like you, you know, I just kept moving around because I was also following job opportunities and, you know, I can very much relate to that mobile life. And one thing that I remember sort of reflecting on about maybe the positives of it, but also maybe the negatives of it, is that I always had an opportunity to rebrand myself and my identity every time I moved.
00:11:34:16 – 00:12:04:13 Unknown Yeah. So it was like any time I moved or anytime I was like, I don’t really like this version of myself that I’m showing to the world. Okay, I’ll take care of that in my rebrand or when I move next. Yeah, right. And so it really shaped, I guess. And so, like, there was like a way that I dressed or a way that I spoke or even the way that, you know, or what name I decided to go by.
00:12:04:13 – 00:12:38:18 Unknown Yeah, those kinds of things changed too. So it wasn’t just like my physical space was changing, but, you know, like my internal system was getting an update as well. Yeah. And so, you know, I’m wondering about the evolution of your identity. You know, I know when you said you were younger, you wanted to just fit in. But I’m wondering as you kept moving, what are some things about your internal identity also changed or grew or.
00:12:38:20 – 00:13:02:00 Unknown Yeah, molded. Yeah. This is like such an interesting question because I’ve never really thought about it in this way. But, you know, I’m a transgender person and I’m queer, and I didn’t come out as either of those things until much later in life. I was 22 when I came out as queer and then 28 when I came out as trans.
00:13:02:00 – 00:13:38:03 Unknown And so I think a lot about my childhood in that lens of like not having the vocabulary to, like, really understand my identity at the time and, and what I, how I wanted to be moving through the world, but like, couldn’t be for a lot of different reasons. But it’s interesting, like when you were talking about kind of like rebranding yourself as you move, it’s like I think back, you know, to, to that and like, I didn’t even think of it that way when I was growing up, you know, I mean, as I’ve gotten older, for sure I have.
00:13:38:03 – 00:14:13:20 Unknown But, you know, during that time, like like you said and like I said earlier, I just wanted to to blend in. I was just like, I don’t want any attention on me. I just want to, like, blend in with everybody else. And I think some of that stems from knowing my queerness and trans ness early on, but knowing what that could have meant for for me, knowing that at a young age, knowing that with my parents being the people that they are and, you know, and different factors like that, but also being biracial, my mom is white and my dad’s Pakistani.
00:14:13:20 – 00:14:33:22 Unknown So, you know, that I think caused me to feel othered a lot in my life growing up because it was like I wasn’t white enough to be with the white kids, but I wasn’t like, you know, South Asian enough to be with the South Asian kids. So it was like I was always kind of like in this weird, like space in between that.
00:14:34:00 – 00:15:01:08 Unknown And so I think like a lot of parts, key parts of my identity were things that I didn’t really understand when I was growing up. And as I, you know, have gotten older, obviously these things have become more apparent to me. But since my dad was not really around a lot when I was growing up, and it was really my mom raising the, you know, we and my siblings and I really didn’t have any access to our culture whatsoever on on his side.
00:15:01:08 – 00:15:41:14 Unknown So like, we didn’t grow up eating Pakistani food. We didn’t grow up speaking another language. We didn’t grow up with, like any of that culture. I think also when he came to the United States, I think someone told him he needed to assimilate and so he really didn’t share any of that culture with us. And so as I’ve gotten older, I’ve, you know, it’s been kind of a mourning process of like that time lost and not having that connection to to, you know, this being part of my identity, but also a really big joy for me in like getting to explore that in a way that like I didn’t have access to when I was
00:15:41:14 – 00:16:04:15 Unknown younger and in a way that I didn’t understand when I was younger. Because again, like I just wanted to blend in. I didn’t want to be different. But there are so many things about me that were different and that were being othered, you know, from a young age even, you know, not people even saying things, but just the way people would like, interact with me or like their body language towards me or, you know, things like that.
00:16:04:15 – 00:16:30:23 Unknown So that’s definitely, you know, something that I haven’t really thought a ton about in that way. But I think, you know, as I’ve gotten older and these parts of my identity have become become a lot clearer, I understand more of like my childhood and why it was the way that it was and why I was the way that I was in that situation.
00:16:31:01 – 00:16:48:22 Unknown And sometimes I think back like, what if I wouldn’t have moved so much? Or what if I would have stayed in one place my whole childhood? Or what if I would have known I was, you know, trans and knowing that word way earlier, what if I would have had that visibility or that representation way earlier? Like what? What would my life have been like?
00:16:49:00 – 00:17:14:07 Unknown And of course, I don’t know. But I do wonder about that sometimes and think about how that would have changed my trajectory, you know, personally, professionally, all these different things in my life. And I’m, I, I in no way regret like how things went now. But during the time when these things are happening, I was like, just like I want to just be normal.
00:17:14:07 – 00:18:03:13 Unknown I just want everything to be normal. But what is normal? You know, at the time I didn’t. I was just doing what I thought everyone else was doing and and what I should be doing and all of those things. So yeah, yeah, that idea of normal is just so damaging in so many ways. And earlier you were talking about, you know, your father being given this message that when he immigrated to the United States that he needs to assimilate, you know, and it’s it’s something that I talk about often and I think about often this idea of assimilation and something that I’ve been exploring a lot recently about my own childhood is that I was
00:18:03:13 – 00:18:42:12 Unknown so scared to deviate from the dominant culture to face even harsher othering. Yeah, you know that like, I just didn’t have the psychological safety to practice my culture in a way that I think was more closer to maybe like the Korean culture of my family, the the heritage of, you know, my ancestors from South Korea, you know, and, you know, K-Pop and like Korean barbecue.
00:18:42:12 – 00:19:12:10 Unknown Like those things were not popular when I was younger. Yeah. You know, Beats was not around. And so, like, I was very ashamed to practice any kind of pride or joy about my culture. I don’t even eat kimchi. I don’t even like it because, you know, I was so ashamed that it was such a stinky food that I wouldn’t even touch it, you know?
00:19:12:15 – 00:19:52:05 Unknown Yeah. And so, like, yeah, there is a lot of identity loss that comes with being in a culture where you’re not safe for a variety of reasons, to be completely who you are. Yeah. And so, you know, I can kind of relate to a lot of the things that you said, and I love that reflection about your identity and, you know, reflecting back on what are some things could that could have been different had you had the language to understand, like your gender identity, your queerness, right.
00:19:52:06 – 00:20:45:23 Unknown Earlier on, how could that have impacted your trajectory in life, maybe in a more positive way? And so and like you said, we we just you just don’t know. Yeah. And so I’m curious, like maybe some of those struggles that you might have kept to on the inside. You know, what were maybe some of the reasons and I’m kind of making very big assumptions here but I’m wondering like and so please correct me if I’m wrong or if I am generalizing, but, you know, I’m wondering, were you able to communicate these things that were going on inside your mind and things that you thought of and these like unexpressed, unexpressed emotions, were you able to
00:20:45:23 – 00:21:17:03 Unknown communicate those things with your parents or any kind of close relative or teacher or adult figure that could help you sort of navigate those, you know, points of identity within yourself? Yeah. So I wasn’t I really didn’t have a lot of adults in my life that I felt comfortable enough to talk about my emotions within my, like, you know, family and especially with my parents.
00:21:17:03 – 00:21:40:01 Unknown We really had a culture within my family of like not talking about our emotions at all. And and that comes from my mom’s side and my dad’s side. Like they both their parents and their families are the same way of just like really not talking about how you feel and not talking about your emotions as And so from a young age, I learned to kind of like bottle all that up.
00:21:40:01 – 00:21:59:23 Unknown Like, I shouldn’t be talking about that. It means I’m weak. It means, you know, these these things you know, about me that aren’t true. But like, that’s what I was led to believe. And so growing up, I really bottled a lot of things up because I just was like, I don’t have anywhere really to go to talk about these things.
00:22:00:01 – 00:22:27:15 Unknown Or if I had a thought of, you know, something, I usually just put it out of my mind because I was like, I don’t even want to go there. You know, I don’t even want to think that because that, you know, if that was true, then my life is over or I don’t know what’s going to happen. And all that unpredictability that was going on in my, like, physical life of moving all the time and all of that, like, I didn’t want to have that internally, too.
00:22:27:15 – 00:22:50:12 Unknown So I would just like kind of put it out of my mind. I was really big into sports when I was younger. I was an athlete, so I kind of channeled like everything into athletics and being an athlete. And that was like my way to kind of work through those emotions. But I did have teachers that took like a special interest in me.
00:22:50:14 – 00:23:10:18 Unknown There were definitely like several teachers that I can think of off the top of my head, you know, in different locations that that really looked out for me or noticed things that even my own parents, you know, weren’t noticing about me. And I think partially that’s the reason that I part of it is why I decided to become a teacher.
00:23:11:00 – 00:23:43:04 Unknown You know, when when I was in school was because I was like I some of my teachers were like the only people who truly saw me, you know, and could see all of these confusing things that were happening in my life. But like, I couldn’t really vocalize them. I had a teacher in sixth grade who was my the class was called Industrial Tech, which was kind of like shop, but also like, I don’t know, a tech class.
00:23:43:06 – 00:24:03:01 Unknown I remember we built like we did like the we built like roller coasters on the computer and like we did a lot of really cool stuff. And like, engineering is like not my thing at all. I’m very much like humanities, English history kind of person. I’m not like a math and science person at all, but I had this teacher, her name was Ms..
00:24:03:01 – 00:24:39:23 Unknown Richards, and I doubt she’s going to listen to this because I don’t even know if she’s still alive, which is sad. But she was older then, so you know, even older now. But she and I had been teaching forever for a very long time. And I used to just come by her room after school and just sit with her and I would just talk and she would just let me sit there and talk, you know, for hours after school and, you know, some days I didn’t want to go home because I was like, I’m just going to, like, have to sit with all my feelings if I go home, if I stay here, and she
00:24:39:23 – 00:24:58:22 Unknown gives me little tasks to do around the classroom and I can help her clean up or I can help her, you know, organize things for the next day and we can chat a little bit here or there. Like, you know, that felt really comfortable to me. And, and she cared about what I had to say, you know, and not that like my my family didn’t at all.
00:24:58:22 – 00:25:20:10 Unknown But they had other things going on. There were a lot of other priorities. And so there wasn’t a lot of space for that in my household. And so having teachers that I could, you know, just go to and under the guise of just helping them out or whatever, like then it would turn into like having a conversation about something or like, how did you feel about that?
00:25:20:10 – 00:25:48:15 Unknown Or, you know, things like that. And, and there are several teachers in my educational career that were like that. But that’s one that sticks out to me a lot. Just because middle school is hard, that’s like such a hard age. And I just remember like going to her classroom and just feeling like I can breathe here, you know, like I can just be myself, whoever that is at this time, you know, And and she’s going to be fully accepting of who I am.
00:25:48:15 – 00:26:13:08 Unknown And like, she wants to know what I have to say. She wants to know what I think about things. And she had also had my older sister as a student, too. So she like and she knew my mom and like she knew my family. So I think that also helped. But even once I was out of middle school and in high school, she came to my athletics games and things like that to see me play.
00:26:13:08 – 00:26:45:05 Unknown And that always meant a lot to me that she continued to be there even when I wasn’t in that school anymore. So yeah, yeah, that’s that’s so lovely that you have like this person who was able to see you for who you were and, you know, gave you that attention and that you weren’t getting from maybe other caregivers or adults in your life, you know?
00:26:45:05 – 00:27:31:16 Unknown And so visually, like what you’re sharing about Ms.. Richards, is kind of what allowed you to be seen and valued. And I’m kind of wondering about the other systems in place, the other things in your school experience that wasn’t giving you that same experience. Yeah, you could talk a little bit about that. Yeah, definitely. I think it was just like people taking an interest in me or like seeing me struggling and it wasn’t always like an overt struggle, like I was getting bad grades or I was, you know, getting in trouble at school or anything like that.
00:27:31:16 – 00:27:55:14 Unknown It was like I, you know, I think on the surface it looks like I was fine. And I think a lot of teachers have so many other priorities and other things that are going on. Like I know just from teaching that, like sometimes you just don’t have the capacity to like, you know, be a pseudo parent for all of your students.
00:27:55:14 – 00:28:22:01 Unknown Sometimes, you know? So I understand it from that perspective. But also I think I think like there were just other teachers that like I was just I don’t want to say a number to them, but it kind of felt like that sometimes where it was like, you know, I was just there and I wasn’t like the person always volunteering and raising my hand in class or like the smartest kid in the class or there weren’t a lot of reasons for me to be noticed.
00:28:22:01 – 00:28:50:02 Unknown Otherwise, like I said, I was like quiet and very studious. Always did my work. Like I was very, very into it, into school. But I think there were other kids that were very into school, too, you know, in other ways. And I just didn’t stand out to some teachers, I think, or there just wasn’t availability for them mentally and physically and all of that to like really be that person for me.
00:28:50:04 – 00:29:15:02 Unknown And that’s completely fine because like I said, I understand it from the other side now, too, that like I you know, you want to be there for your students, you want to be that person, but like you only have so much to give. And sometimes, you know, especially teachers that have their own children and have other, you know, other things going on in their lives, it’s like not always set up the best way for for them to be that person.
00:29:15:04 – 00:29:38:02 Unknown But I think for some for some teachers, I was just, you know, a normal kid to them, you know, somebody that was coming to school, doing my work, you know, not giving them any trouble. And I was, you know, fine. And I was just moving on to the next grade and then they would forget about me. I mean, there’s probably a lot of teachers that I had that, you know, wouldn’t remember me now, I mean, for obvious reasons because of my transition.
00:29:38:02 – 00:30:00:02 Unknown But also, you know, just wouldn’t remember my name if you said it to them, that kind of thing. So and not because, again, I was a bad student or, you know, or they didn’t care about me or anything like that. But just like the sheer nature of being a teacher and having, you know, hundreds of students every year, and you can’t be that person to everyone.
00:30:00:02 – 00:30:32:04 Unknown So, yeah, no, that’s that’s so true. And, you know, like, I was just thinking like, it really is. I think I’m going back to something that you posted maybe a few days ago or maybe last week. I have no sense of time. That’s okay. But you were talking I think one of the tips that you were giving was to like set boundaries right?
00:30:32:04 – 00:31:01:00 Unknown Like to kind of say, all right, here you are, a teacher on at school. Here is how you turn off. Yeah. You know, when you’re at home and set those boundaries. And that really related. I really resonated with that because I remember when I was I was a classroom educated at her for about 15 years and I just remember being so overwhelmed.
00:31:01:00 – 00:31:48:09 Unknown But in a good way. Yeah, because I really just enjoyed being a part of and you know, when I was younger, I had a lot more energy and, you know, I didn’t have a lot of like some of the challenges that I do now. And so I didn’t mind being on all the time and, you know, having that structure of being that person that students can ask questions all the time, you know, and so hearing you talk about how you see the other side of, you know, the system not really allowing, I guess, every student to be seen by every teacher, right?
00:31:48:09 – 00:32:41:15 Unknown That’s just not possible. But I wanted to ask you, like from your perspective of being a teacher, of being, you know, a curriculum developer, of being a teacher trainer, you know, having had all of the experiences that you’ve had in educational spaces in so many different capacities. If we were to do like a major systems overhaul and redesign it, would there be a way to sort of have more students feel seen by more adults or, you know, arrange communities and spaces in in ways where, you know, okay, quite small tangent.
00:32:41:17 – 00:33:11:12 Unknown I know that like there are several people talking about like I recently had a conversation with someone on this podcast about how bullying sort of happens because of one reason being that we’re all segregated by age, by similar age, and that we sort of all have to sort of like rank and file ourselves and find that hierarchy, right?
00:33:11:13 – 00:33:42:20 Unknown So going back to my question, like using that kind of as like an inspiration or departure point for being an example of what kind of systems, you know, that can be changed. Yeah. To make it so that it’s a little bit easier for everyone to feel less oppressed or stressed or removed from expressing who they are. Yeah. So I’m not sure if I fully fleshed out that question, you know?
00:33:42:22 – 00:34:03:03 Unknown Yeah, I know you’re going with it. Great. Yeah, I get the question. I mean, it’s a huge question. Like if I could sit down and, like, dream out what I was, everything could be like if we recall the education system, especially in the United States, like what that could look like. Like, that is awesome. And I would love to do that.
00:34:03:05 – 00:34:25:20 Unknown But yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s not like I think one of the main things and like, I have a little bit of a background in studying education systems. My master’s degree is in international education and that’s like what I initially went into that degree program thinking I was really going to focus on was like, you know, studying other countries education systems and what’s working there and what could work here.
00:34:25:20 – 00:35:05:00 Unknown And, you know, things like what are we not doing in the U.S. that we could be doing here that are working elsewhere, that could be transitioned here? And I study that very much at all. Actually, when I got into my program, I went a completely different way. But I did learn some things about other education systems. I think one thing that we we do here in the US that inhibits teachers from connecting with students on that level is partially is like there’s too many kids in in classrooms, you know, on any given day.
00:35:05:00 – 00:35:48:13 Unknown Like I think it’s really hard as a teacher to have, you know, seven class periods of 30 kids each, you know, and you have hundreds of students and you’re supposed to be, you know, tailoring the learning to each of their, you know, learning styles and doing all of these things, which you couldn’t possibly do. So I think the expectation system is off, obviously, but I think I think we see those relationships being built in a stronger and greater way in the younger grades here in the U.S. So, you know, elementary like early elementary school, like I remember all my teachers from early elementary school.
00:35:48:13 – 00:36:17:06 Unknown I remember like random things about them that I don’t need to remember anymore. Like their favorite soda or like, you know, just random things, what their dog’s name was, things like that that I’m like, why do I still know that from second grade? But the class sizes are smaller, were smaller when I was growing up. And I think that gives people, you know, a better way to connect, more time to connect on that personal level.
00:36:17:08 – 00:36:41:04 Unknown But I also think that part of it is that we just don’t make space for it. There’s a lot of I mean, I taught high school and, you know, high schoolers don’t want to tell you anything about themselves. Like that’s just like how it is. But they want to know everything about you as a teacher. They want to know, like all of your personal information, they want to find you on social media, all these different things.
00:36:41:04 – 00:37:06:11 Unknown They want to Google your name like, you know, all of that stuff. They want to know everything about you. They don’t want they don’t want you to know anything about them. But they I think for me, it was like there just wasn’t enough time to cover the curriculum, do all the things that were state mandated that I needed to get done and school mandated and school board mandated and also have like deep relationships with my students.
00:37:06:12 – 00:37:39:16 Unknown And like, it’s such a disservice that we don’t do that here. And I think there’s a lot of things that need to change in order for that to happen. But I think some of it can be curriculum based because I think even now still I mean, I’ve been out of the classroom for seven years now and I feel like even now there’s so much opportunity in the teaching and learning to have those personal connections and to make those personal connections with students.
00:37:39:18 – 00:38:14:06 Unknown And we just aren’t doing it. They’re just we have to get creative. That’s the thing is like people, not everyone, like I’m generalizing, of course, but like I feel like a lot of curriculum is just really boring and really dry and it’s like not things that like people care about and one of the best things you can do is like to connect with your students is like connecting over what you’re reading in class or, you know, a movie that you’re watching and analyzing or whatever it might be and and helping them find how they can connect those things to their lives.
00:38:14:06 – 00:38:36:10 Unknown If they’re only reading books by old dad guys and you know that no one relates to that, really. So it’s like, you know, if you’re if you’re only giving them these things and there’s not anything that they can really grasp on to and relate to and that there’s not going to be a lot of bridges built between you, the curriculum and the student.
00:38:36:10 – 00:39:08:17 Unknown And that’s like that’s part it. So I think there’s a lot of reasons why that’s not happening. But I think those are two major ones is that the class sizes are just way too big and that there’s just not enough of the relationship building component built into curriculum there. Like this place that I used to work, they would always say like there was this real like scarcity mindset around time it would be like, you don’t have time to do that, or like, there’s not enough time to do this and that.
00:39:08:19 – 00:39:28:04 Unknown And it started to be this thing where we would like repurpose different parts of meetings that were already happening. So it was like, you know, at the beginning of this meeting that we already have every week, like we’re going to do this reflection piece or whatever at this point in time. And I think that’s not utilized enough in education either.
00:39:28:04 – 00:39:51:02 Unknown It’s like, let’s repurpose and get creative with like the time and the things that we do have so that we can connect deeper and further with with our students. So that was a tangent on my part, but I think that’s a, that’s another thing too, is that like we just have to be creative and people are like tired and burnt out and like it’s hard to be creative when you’re in that space.
00:39:51:02 – 00:40:15:20 Unknown So I think that’s part of the reason too. Yes, absolute LI There’s I mean, school so much about school like leads to burnout, you know, and yeah, I think, yeah, sorry on my part for asking you such a big question. no, it’s okay. I know that that’s something that I’m working on. No, I mean, somebody needs to ask it.
00:40:15:20 – 00:40:36:04 Unknown That’s the thing. And it’s like fun to dream, you know? Fun to dream about. Like, what if we could do that, you know? And, like, how what would we do? So I enjoyed the question. Yeah. And, you know, like, I have been talking to a lot of people who are sort of like in the micro school founding, like movement.
00:40:36:08 – 00:41:13:11 Unknown Yeah. And, you know, they do talk about how it is more student centered. It is it is about like building relationship gaps. And I know that, you know, like community is a really big thing to you. And establishing smaller communities is is something that’s important to you as well. And so, you know, like there are so many reasons why like micro schooling and like smaller schools have been so successful not just recently but even in the past.
00:41:13:16 – 00:41:46:10 Unknown yeah. And you know, I’m wondering for you, like, you know, I think something that you mentioned in our correspondence is this idea of like a fear based system and how we sort of want to like depart from that a little bit. And I think the way that you talked about it is maybe a little different from how I’m envisioning it or contextualizing it right now.
00:41:46:12 – 00:42:31:13 Unknown But something that I’ve done a lot of writing about recently is that we don’t have enough psychological safety in school to sort of express exactly who we are because it’s a threat to our survival, either socially or physically, mentally, spiritually, whatever it is, it’s just psychologically unsafe. And, you know, speaking to your point about having smaller classes and that ability to connect, you know, I think any time I look at like a crowd, I feel anxiety.
00:42:31:15 – 00:43:30:07 Unknown But as soon as I’m able to talk to one person, one on one, yeah, I sort of become a lot calmer. And, you know, I feel valued depending on the communication skills of the people that I’m speaking with. And there’s just so much more opportunity for empathy and compassion when it’s a smaller setting. Yeah. And so I’m wondering for you, like, how might we depart from such a big crowd time controlled, fear based scarcity mindset kind of system or paradigm to going to one that is more meaningful, deeper, smaller and you know, all of those things.
00:43:30:09 – 00:43:52:19 Unknown Yeah, I mean, I think the the struggle is looking at looking at and finding the abundance and what we can do. I mean, I think, you know, going from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset overnight is like impossible, right? Like, you’re not just one day going to be like, I don’t have time, anything. I’m, you know, whatever.
00:43:52:19 – 00:44:09:17 Unknown And then the next day you’re just like, like, it’s fine, you know, like I have all the time in the world. You’re not going to go, you know, overnight. And I think that’s the expectation sometimes is like, well, let’s make this change. And like, everybody needs to buy into it and adopt it and like, let’s move on it quickly.
00:44:09:17 – 00:44:30:08 Unknown I think a lot of schools do that, like especially in education as, you know, like it’s cyclical, like there’s always trends and then like something’s popular and then it’s not popular anymore. Like a mode of instruction or, you know, just different things like something’s popular and then, you know, it’s not popular anymore. And then like five years later, it’s popular again.
00:44:30:08 – 00:44:53:08 Unknown Like that mode of, of instruction or like certain curriculum or whatever. It’s very cyclical and like, what’s trendy and like what everyone’s doing, you know, it’s like all these classrooms have like smart boards from like, you know, ten years ago because that was like the cool thing to have at the time. And now, like, no one uses them and the technology hasn’t been updated.
00:44:53:08 – 00:45:17:11 Unknown And you know, that’s also a tangent I could go on. But also, you know, I think there is I think that cyclical nature could be an advantage or disadvantage, like it could be a good thing. You know, that that we are constantly learning about, you know, new methods and going back to the old things that we used to do that maybe were successful, that could be successful now.
00:45:17:17 – 00:45:49:09 Unknown But I think also it can be really limiting because then we’re not going beyond that. We’re not going and like I said before, being creative about like how the times have changed and how, you know, different generations learn differently and how we need to like adapt to that and, you know, all these different things. But I think I think getting into that abundance mindset is all about really accepting that things can be different and that it doesn’t we don’t have to be stuck in the way that we’re doing things.
00:45:49:09 – 00:46:14:15 Unknown Like I think a lot of the time it’s like, we’re just going to continue to do things like how we’ve always done them. Because it’s easy. It’s easy because we all know how to do it and you know, we can just continue doing it that way. But like that’s so limiting and also can be so harmful in a lot of ways to the people that, you know, are expected to, you know, teach that way, but also to the students.
00:46:14:15 – 00:46:30:18 Unknown And there’s just there’s a lot of problems with it. But I think the first step is like accepting that we can go beyond that, that there is room to go beyond that. And we don’t have to just do what’s comfortable. We might have to uncomfortable for a little bit, like we might have to be in a learning phase for a little bit.
00:46:30:18 – 00:47:01:17 Unknown We want our students to be in a learning phase. We want our students to be like, uncomfortable in some scenarios, right? Because that helps them grow. And I think that’s forgotten sometimes. Like my teacher friends and I would always like talk about how the administration at our school, like they would come in and, you know, observe us teaching and stuff and then give us like, you know, a rubric with like what we should improve on and stuff and we would always be like, but they also haven’t taught in like ten years.
00:47:01:17 – 00:47:25:00 Unknown So how do they know, like what’s going on in my classroom? Like they just came in for you 60 Minutes or whatever. And like they they don’t know the differences from when they taught, you know, ten years ago, 20 years ago, whatever it was. So we used to always talk about that, that like they should come and teach for a week and see, you know, how it actually is so that they can remember the difficulties of some of this.
00:47:25:00 – 00:47:59:21 Unknown And another tangent on my part. But and could go on and on about that. But I think yeah, I think it’s just really understanding that we can go beyond what we know and less comfortable for us. And also like I think there is such a missed opportunity in like harnessing the creativity of people in the building. Like I, it frustrates me to no end because there’s so many schools that like never once talk to a teacher about what their ideas are and they’re the ones that are with the kids every day.
00:47:59:21 – 00:48:27:11 Unknown So it’s like they should be the ones leading the charge on like how we should do things differently. What are they dreaming of? What are they imagining? There’s not enough dreaming going on in schools in general. I think I think that’s really been squashed like the I mean, for a while. But I think with COVID like and virtual learning and all that, I think that was a really big down, you know, downward spiral for that.
00:48:27:11 – 00:49:00:09 Unknown But I get frustrated because there are so many brilliant, brilliant teachers in school buildings all over the world and they have so many ideas on how to make education better, but they’re not able to be at the tables where those decisions are being made. They’re not being asked about their input like at all or infrequently, you know, once a year, and then they’re just kind of doing it to check a box and say that they did it and not actually take that feedback into consideration.
00:49:00:09 – 00:49:29:22 Unknown And there’s so many great ideas that that the people who are closest to, you know, who were serving as teachers, you know, and are and like it’s just there’s not enough of of that going on too. So I would say those two things would get us closer to being in that abundance mindset, seeing and using up all of like the amazing parts and things that education can be.
00:49:30:00 – 00:50:09:15 Unknown Yeah, absolutely. And I love that idea of, you know, collaboration, you know, and also something that you said gave me this image of like, you know, when we look at a seed and we planted in the ground and it starts to grow, the shell of that seed cracks, you know, so like that, that that inception of transformation is incredibly violent and it is very uncomfortable.
00:50:09:15 – 00:50:52:23 Unknown Yeah. And so, you know, like if we are to move from a fear based scarcity mindset to a sort of like growth and abundance mindset, which is not going to happen overnight, we do have to sit with that discomfort. I’m wondering, like, what do you think is possible with the collaboration that could happen with all stakeholders, You know, whether it’s it’s including the teachers, including the parents, including the students.
00:50:53:01 – 00:51:38:12 Unknown What do we have to change about the education system or mass education mentality in order to head in the right direction to, collaborate? And I’m kind of curious about. So I think that the old model of doing things is, you know, based on like it has not changed since the Industrial Revolution. Right? And it’s just standardized testing, training teachers on a very prescribed curriculum.
00:51:38:14 – 00:52:08:16 Unknown You know, there’s just so much that has not been updated. And you the economy, social values, everything has shifted. You know, it’s been more than 300 years. Yeah. And I feel like we’re very slowly, incrementally in small pockets, maybe in more like privileged areas. We’ve seen updates, but we haven’t seen major updates to like the the mass education system.
00:52:08:16 – 00:52:39:11 Unknown And I’m wondering like for you, how do we steer the ship, you know, towards going more collaborative, increasing abundance? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think it it comes from everyone being on the same page about the future that we want for education probably will never happen because no one can get on like not all of us can get on the same page at the same time, obviously.
00:52:39:12 – 00:53:00:00 Unknown And like you said, different stakeholders have different needs and wants. And, you know, parents have all these ideas about what education should be and students have all these ideas. Well, education should be and teachers and, you know, administrators and all of that. And so I think that’s, you know, a very difficult thing is to kind of get on a path of what we want.
00:53:00:00 – 00:53:25:05 Unknown But maybe there is some high level, you know, overarching things that we can all agree upon that like are important to us in our society and what we want, you know, generations to know moving forward in order for them to be successful in whatever way that means for them. I think there’s a lot of expectation on going to college, getting jobs, you know, all of these different things.
00:53:25:05 – 00:53:47:19 Unknown But that’s not what success is for a lot of people. And that’s that has to change. I think, too, is that like our ideas about the path that you take in life and what that means about you or doesn’t mean about you needs to shift in general. But I think in order for more collaboration to happen between all these stakeholders is for there to be space to do that.
00:53:47:21 – 00:54:09:14 Unknown I think there there are very few places that that make the space and carve out the space and time for people to meet in that way and to really have these discussions and talk about what’s important to them from where they sit. So like whether it’s a parent or a teacher or principal or whoever, I think, you know, there are very few.
00:54:09:14 – 00:54:31:00 Unknown And if there are, we don’t hear about them like I haven’t heard about that really happening much or it’s like a school board meeting. What’s like is, again, not really a place to do that, but I think it also comes from being open minded about what the future could be and and being able to dream and envision that.
00:54:31:00 – 00:54:51:07 Unknown Like I know I’ve said this already, but I just don’t think we’re dreaming enough anymore. Like we’re not like aspiring to like, big things anymore. Like, I feel like we’re as a society in a very, like, stagnant place and like, we’re just like, let’s just get through the next day, you know, like, and that’s like a depressing place to be in a lot of ways.
00:54:51:07 – 00:55:10:07 Unknown And like, how can we expect, like, you know, students to then be inspired about life and moving on and you know, being, being whatever they want to be in life. You know, we can’t expect them to do that if we can’t do that ourselves. And if we can’t all kind of come together and say, like, what are the things that we really care about?
00:55:10:07 – 00:55:34:05 Unknown What do we want these next generations to really rally around? Like, you know, how do we save the planet from, you know, climate change? How do we, you know, do all these other things? Like I think it comes from us all having the time and space to get together and and talk about these things in a way that’s like civil and is not going to be just like shouting, you know, at each other.
00:55:34:06 – 00:56:15:21 Unknown And I think we need to this is a bigger tangent to like, get rid of this like division of like Republicans and Democrats and like that whole two parties and all binaries just need to like, go away forever because it’s just like not good to limit ourselves to do things. But yeah, so I think, I think just carving out the time and space to be able to have those conversations in a way that like is productive and like civil and is not going to be just like a shouting match and having space to dream together about like what, what all this could be because there’s so much room for like, growth and like, it gets
00:56:15:21 – 00:56:34:18 Unknown me excited to even think about, like, what it could be. And I know so many other people that are that way too. And I just don’t think that there’s enough avenues for the people that are excited about these things to like really put it into action or find a way to be, you know, involved in and changing things.
00:56:34:19 – 00:57:05:06 Unknown Yeah, absolute. And something that I noticed is that I think we spend a lot of like everyone is doing things independently and I know we have like conferences and things like that of, like the meeting of the minds and things like that constantly happening on smaller scales. Like you said. But you know, it’s not really like making its way into the mainstream.
00:57:05:11 – 00:57:36:07 Unknown It’s not impacting, I guess, the culture in a significant way where there is significant change. And, you know, I think like there’s so many independent things out there, but but there’s not enough synthesis happening, you know, like there’s not a lot of people coming together to examine, like well, here’s this research, here’s this thing that’s working really well.
00:57:36:09 – 00:58:17:01 Unknown Here’s this other thing that, you know, yields better results than what we were doing. You know, there’s there’s not a lot of synthesis going on. And so, you know, like I guess in my final sort of sets of questions for you is like trying to understand maybe how do we go towards synthesizing what we already know? Because I feel like there’s so much research out there, there’s so much independent studies and examples out there that we are just not capitalizing on on a mass scale.
00:58:17:03 – 00:58:52:10 Unknown And so like, you know, like everybody I’ve been speaking with on this podcast, we’re just based all around the world and I think there’s so much opportunity now, you know, the future of education, if it’s not already, it’s it’s borderless, you know? And I feel like a lot of people are still thinking about education within the context of their own country, which makes sense because that the education systems are based on the economy of that specific country or nation.
00:58:52:12 – 00:59:44:07 Unknown And so I guess as we move forward towards, you know coming together and collaborating with across nations and across pedagogies, across across school formats, across funding opportunities, just if we just transcend all of that. Yeah. And can really get to a place of real significant impact. What are maybe what is the most impactful thing that you think is in the right, the the most impactful step in the right direction if you can think of one thing.
00:59:44:09 – 01:00:12:16 Unknown Yeah. I mean I think you’re right in that like we have so much we can learn from each other and I think we forget that a lot. I used to always say, like I learned so much more from my students than they probably learned from me just because, like, I learned so many things about life from them, like being in a room with, you know, a bunch of 16 year olds all day, every day for like a few years will will do that to you and make you feel very old.
01:00:12:18 – 01:00:44:02 Unknown But also like, you know, there’s just so many things that that we can learn from each other and that like, we’re not we’re definitely not taking advantage of. But I think there’s also this expectation that we should be seeking these things out on our own. And I think that’s difficult because we again, don’t have like limitless amount of time to be able to like, seek out, you know, connections and to be able to like, connect with people across countries and things like that.
01:00:44:02 – 01:01:09:00 Unknown So I think like building the infrastructure for that to like exist in a way that like works. Like, of course we have the Internet, which is amazing, but like, do we really have the ways to like again, like look at research together and say like, hey, like we’re doing this in this country and like, it’s working really well and you know, this other context, we feel like it could work really well there, like, let’s pilot it, let’s try it out.
01:01:09:00 – 01:01:37:15 Unknown Like, let’s do these different things to see if it would work. Like, I don’t think, you know, currently we have a lot of means of doing that. Like it’s like we’re, we’re connected, you know, by the Internet. But like, I don’t know that there’s many platforms out there for teachers, at least, or even educators in any sense of the word, where like, you can go and, you know, you can find other people that are wanting to do the same thing, wanting to collaborate in that way.
01:01:37:17 – 01:02:07:07 Unknown I think just like technically, like there’s just not spaces for that, at least not any that I really know besides like social media, which even still, like, you know, you’re there’s not really specific things for educators. I mean, there are, but it’s like, I don’t know. I feel like it’s it’s a different way of doing things. So I think until we like, figure out how do we do this, how do we communicate and how do we collaborate with each other and learn from each other in a way that’s like very intentional.
01:02:07:13 – 01:02:35:03 Unknown I don’t think like, you know, we’re going to see a lot of movement forward. Another thing that I think is really important is advocating, you know, and that’s everybody, not just educators, but like in your community, advocating, you know, at your school board for better curriculum, advocating for, you know, going out and voting for your school board so that like and of course, this is very us context.
01:02:35:03 – 01:02:57:13 Unknown But, you know, making sure that like the people who are, you know, in your community that are, you know, sitting in seats to make the decisions are the right people to be there are the people that are looking out for the best interests of your community and are on the same page with you in terms of, you know, what you want to see out of the education system.
01:02:57:15 – 01:03:16:22 Unknown So, you know, parents going and being involved in those things, students even being involved in those things and teachers. And, you know, I think it’s really important. The advocacy piece is really important, too. And a lot of people like don’t even know that there’s school board elections and that like, you can vote for that and like, yes, you can vote for that and you can run for that.
01:03:16:22 – 01:03:34:12 Unknown You know, you can be that person that, you know, maybe you’re going to be on a school board with a bunch of people that think differently from you, but like, maybe they’re going to learn something from you, you know, being their colleague in that space and bringing up ideas and pushing back on things that you don’t feel are right.
01:03:34:12 – 01:03:53:11 Unknown Like, I think, you know, we really have to be active. It can’t just be like, like I want all these things to change but like, I don’t really have the energy or time to like, put into that. Like we have to actually make it happen. It can’t just be something that exists in our head and you know, it doesn’t go anywhere from there.
01:03:53:11 – 01:04:18:03 Unknown So I think that’s another piece of it is like really advocating for what we want to see. And a lot of it’s broken broken systems, but we can infiltrate those systems as people who are like fighting for good and like want to do the right thing. Yeah. No, that’s so inspiring. You mentioned that you have been out of the classroom for seven years.
01:04:18:05 – 01:04:40:19 Unknown What was the reason you left? Yeah. So there are a lot of reasons. One of them being burnout, one of them being that I wasn’t able to safely be out as queer and as trans at the school that I was teaching at. I was teaching in Texas, and it wasn’t safe for me basically to be who I am.
01:04:40:19 – 01:05:02:11 Unknown And that was really, really difficult for me mentally to have to, like, go into school every day and like, leave a big part of my identity at the door. And that was really, really tricky and hard for me and really took a toll on me mentally. But it was it was a lot of different things. But those were the two major, major pieces.
01:05:02:11 – 01:05:24:05 Unknown I also always knew that I didn’t want to be like a career teacher. I knew I wasn’t going to be a teacher. That taught for 30 years, a classroom teacher that taught for 30 years. I always wanted to do a lot of different things in education. I knew I wasn’t just going to be a classroom teacher, which it’s fine if that’s what your goals are.
01:05:24:05 – 01:05:54:05 Unknown But for me, I just knew that wasn’t what I wanted to do long term. I didn’t know exactly what that would look like if I would, you know, become a lobbyist or go to law school or, you know, like all these different routes that you can take and still stay in education. But I, I wanted to do other things, but also the other two pieces of of being really burnt out and also, you know, having to be in the closet.
01:05:54:07 – 01:06:26:19 Unknown Yeah, that is so unfortunate. And I think, you know, talking about like this idea of psychological safety and not being able to express who you are and you have to actually hide who you are in order to be physically safe, maybe where you work and lead that. I can’t even imagine that level of challenge and hardship and struggle.
01:06:26:21 – 01:07:07:22 Unknown And so when you left the classroom and you knew that, you know, you didn’t want to be a classroom teacher for your entire career and you wanted to explore other things within the realm of education, this might be another big question. So I have to I like the big questions. Okay. When I look back on maybe the trajectory of my life, I feel like I’m always finding in retrospect what question I was trying to answer when I explore.
01:07:07:23 – 01:08:01:11 Unknown Yeah. And one of the big things with this podcast is trying to find the right question to ask to sort of, I guess, kickstart, not kickstart because it’s already in motion, but to really focus what the problem in education really is. So I want to come up with a question that can really focus the problem. And I think with every conversation I have, it’s getting me closer to understanding what this big question that I want to ask is, But it has something to do around re prioritizing the goal and objective of education.
01:08:01:13 – 01:08:26:14 Unknown I think in the past it’s it’s always been school is to help our students learn. Yeah but when I do all this reading and talking, it’s like we’re not really teaching our students to learn. We’re teaching them what learn and we’re teaching them when to learn it, but we’re not teaching them how to actually do the critical thinking of learning.
01:08:26:16 – 01:09:19:22 Unknown And so I really want to change this, this philosophy, this driving trajectory of education by changing the question of. And so I guess for you, when you say you are interested in exploring other things in education, what do you think is the question that is pulling you towards navigating your career? Yeah, I think for me it was wanting to do bigger things, things that were more systems based and not necessarily like a school and environment, just like one school environment.
01:09:19:22 – 01:09:43:17 Unknown I think I wanted to do something bigger than that, which like, of course, like being a classroom teacher is huge. That’s such like there’s so many pieces of it. I’m not downplaying that at all by saying that. But I think like for me, I wanted to be able to impart facts change and education in a way that didn’t just impact one school or one classroom.
01:09:43:17 – 01:10:08:07 Unknown I wanted to be able to impact, you know, lot of schools, a lot of classrooms, a lot of students lives, a lot of teachers lives. And that’s still like aligned with the work that I’m doing now with my consulting business, as, you know, creating more inclusive environments in schools for, you know, students who are LGBTQ PLUS or gender expansive, and also teachers that fall into those communities as well.
01:10:08:07 – 01:10:35:00 Unknown And so I think, you know, in I’m still working on that, you know, I’m still working on how do I make, you know, the biggest impact possible for people like me and for kids who were like me when I was in school? I think like that’s my driving force behind, you know, really stepping out of the classroom and doing something bigger is like, I just want for everybody to come that comes after me that hold the same identities as I do.
01:10:35:02 – 01:11:01:06 Unknown I want their time to be better and easier than mine was because I have the power to change that, right? So I think in stepping out of classroom, a big part of it was was wanting to impact more than just what I could impact standing in front of 30 teachers, you know, for seven or 30 students for, you know, 7 hours a day for, you know, nine months, ten months, whatever.
01:11:01:08 – 01:11:34:20 Unknown So I think for me, it was it was about making a bigger impact. And I could do that by being outside of the classroom. Yeah. So I know you do a lot of DIY like trainings and workshops, jobs with individuals and peoples in schools. And I’m just wondering like, what are some of the challenges that you are met with?
01:11:34:22 – 01:11:56:23 Unknown Like what kind of pushback to you receive? Yeah. So, I mean, there’s a lot of things, but I think I mean, right now, since DIY is kind of being politicized in this way with it being an election year and it’s like under attack and all this stuff, I always like see all these articles that are like die under attack.
01:11:56:23 – 01:12:18:20 Unknown And then I’m always like, Hasn’t it always kind of been under attack? I mean, it’s been happening for so long. It just wasn’t called DIY work. It was social justice work or liberation work or, you know, all these other names for it before it became diversity, equity and inclusion work, because it pushes back against what we know and what we’ve learned and the things that we need to unlearn.
01:12:18:20 – 01:12:48:18 Unknown And and, you know, it challenges the status quo and it’s it’s disruptive. Like that’s the nature of DIY and that’s what it should be because it’s supposed to challenge us and put us in that space of growth. So I think that is a challenge in itself that it’s becoming, you know, this thing that’s, you know, right wing people have like attached to and are like, you know, kind of touting as as this horrible thing that we shouldn’t have happening.
01:12:48:20 – 01:13:10:00 Unknown But like personally when I work with I do a lot of work with schools and a lot of them are, you know, K through 12 schools. And a lot of the time when I work with school is they’ll come to me and they’re very excited. They’re like, I’d love to hire you. We really need like some support on inclusion.
01:13:10:02 – 01:13:39:23 Unknown We have trans students and we don’t really know how to like, deal with that. And so we really need your help. And I’m like, great, You know, like, that’s what I’m here for. That’s what I love doing. Like, I’d be more than happy to help you. So They’ll hire me to do a workshop or a training, and then it will get like a little closer to the date of when I’m supposed to do the training and I’ll get an email from them that says, actually, can we change the topic to just like inclusion broadly or can we change it to like belonging?
01:13:40:03 – 01:14:02:03 Unknown What’s like? That’s great too. And I do a lot of other, you know, trainings outside of LGBTQ plus inclusion. Like I talk about anti-racism, I talk about white supremacy in schools, you know, all different things, but they try to like switch up at the last minute what they want me to talk to, to their staff about because they’re scared.
01:14:02:05 – 01:14:30:11 Unknown They’re scared of pushback that they’re going to get from parents or pushback that they’re going to get from, you know, even some of the teachers that work there or staff that work there or, you know, there’s all this like fear now around like these parent groups, these like. Right wing parent groups that are like, you know, publishing the names of schools that are like doing trainings like this and like doxing them on the Internet and stuff like that.
01:14:30:12 – 01:15:13:11 Unknown And so there’s a lot of fear around it, which like I understand because we of course, like student safety is like and, you know, staff safety is like important, obviously. But I wish sometimes that they would kind of break past the fear, the initial fear that they have and realize that, like by not doing the training or by changing the topic of the training that they’re really doing a disservice to their students at the end of the day, because they’re not going to be receiving this training that like is going to help them better advocate and affirm their students and better connect with their students.
01:15:13:11 – 01:15:31:07 Unknown So I try to remind them of that, that like, you know, there are students go to your school that like, really need you to know that stuff and really need you to be able to support them in this way. And by not doing this training or changing it to something else, like you’re not going to be able to do that.
01:15:31:09 – 01:15:55:12 Unknown And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes they’re like, Actually, never mind, we’re canceling it. So that’s like personally, some of the things that that have happened, I do deal with quite a bit of like fear around it, especially any time you’re working with kids, because I also do work with like student groups, like Gay-Straight Alliance, groups at schools and things like that.
01:15:55:12 – 01:16:27:08 Unknown And there is always, you know, things about indoctrinating children and whatever, all that stuff. But really most of it is just fear and, you know, canceling the engagements that I have with people or there was a conference that I was supposed to speak at that got canceled because there a hate group that was going to be there. And so for like the safety of of, you know, everyone at the conference that is canceled, it.
01:16:27:10 – 01:17:03:01 Unknown So yeah, these are the types of things that like I encounter and I think even more so this year I’m encountering because it’s an election year and there’s just so much vitriol, you know, against trans people and queer people. And it really sucks as as somebody who loves doing this work and that my identity is like out front of, you know, all of this work that like, I have to deal with those things on top of, you know, having to get in front of like a big group of people and speak and, you know, do all of these other things.
01:17:03:01 – 01:17:28:02 Unknown So I think that part is not so fun sometimes. But, you know, worrying about my safety and things like that is is not something that I like to have to do before I’m, you know, preparing for for, you know, a talk workshop. So I hope that changes. I hope people realize, like, how important this work is and that, you know, it’s it’s not going to go away.
01:17:28:02 – 01:17:44:11 Unknown Like it’s just going to keep you know, we’re just going to keep doing it. It’s just we’re not going to call it DIY or we’re going to like rebranded to be something different. But it’s really going to be the same things, like, you know what we’re still going to do. And until we become like a liberated people, which like we’re very far from that.
01:17:44:11 – 01:18:25:12 Unknown So we have a lot of work to do, so we’re not going anywhere basically. What do you think is the biggest harm of doing this work? I mean, literal like lives are at stake, you know, in a lot of in a lot of communities, not just the trans community, not just the queer community, but, you know, I think the more hate that we have towards each other, the more like we don’t resolve these conflicts between communities.
01:18:25:12 – 01:18:58:17 Unknown We don’t, you know, seek to continue learning and growing and striving for that. I think the more like ruin will happen. I mean, that sounds really dramatic and depressing, but like I, I think it’s the ruin of society. Like, I really if we can’t have compassion for one another and our experiences in life and understanding of those things, I don’t think our society is going anywhere positive.
01:18:58:19 – 01:19:46:00 Unknown I think it will will be, you know, a real a real downturn of society if if we don’t do this work. I know personally, like I know many, you know, trans people have been murdered, you know, by by people who are ignorant and haven’t done the self work necessary to, you know, be better people. And I just if that’s already happening and we’re like pushing this work forward in the way that we are, like it’s only going to get worse if, you know, we’re going to see more more war, we’re going to see more, you know, deaths, whether that be murders or suicides, like we’re going to see, you know, we’re just going to see
01:19:46:02 – 01:20:19:08 Unknown a depressed society because I don’t think, you know, we can come back from that if we just gave up on this work altogether. I think, you know, there’s not not a positive thing I could say about that. Yeah, that’s really great. So, you know, I do kind of like ask all of my guests this because I really am working on that question.
01:20:19:08 – 01:21:02:16 Unknown But if we are to focus right, if we are to change the goal of education, what would it be for you? I think it’s aligned with what you said earlier and that like, I think that we need to change our perspective on what education can be and that it’s a tool. And I think we need to, in a way get back to that because I think some of the beginnings of education, you know, in our world is that it’s a tool, right?
01:21:02:16 – 01:21:24:21 Unknown It’s like something for us to use in our lives. But it also, I think a big thing that I see a lot in education right now is that like in have for a long time, is that like it’s a lot of like you said earlier, like we’re teaching kids like what to learn. We’re not letting them explore what they want to learn.
01:21:24:21 – 01:21:48:10 Unknown We’re not teaching them these critical thinking skills. We’re not giving them the tools to, you know, like be humans in the world. Right? I think, you know, there’s there’s all this concern around social emotional learning. And there should be a lot of concern around that because, you know, we’re seeing mental health of, you know, school age kids, you know, horrible.
01:21:48:10 – 01:22:19:19 Unknown It’s been horrible for a while now. And there’s all this emphasis on it. But like, it’s not getting better. So it’s like, what? Like why are we continuing to do the same things when, like, we’re not like we’re not going to get different results, Right? So I think really looking at the perspectives that we have on education and how that’s not working, I think we need to like analyze that and then come up with like, what do we want to how do we want to proceed?
01:22:19:19 – 01:22:43:07 Unknown You know, how do we want to move forward? But I think we’re like really limiting ourselves in like staying within what we know, what we’ve been comfortable doing and what we’ve been what education has been rooted in for so long. But we’re not looking at how time has changed, how, you know, learning needs have changed and and even, you know, mental health needs and all that.
01:22:43:07 – 01:23:12:21 Unknown Like, I mean, kids are in school. I always say this when I do workshops, like kids are in school, like for so much of their life and like, it should be a good for them to be, you know, like it should be a place where they’re happy. It should be a place where they feel safe. It should be a place where, you know, they feel like they’re growing and, you know and in there, you know, learning, but also socially and all these different ways, like it should be a space like that.
01:23:12:21 – 01:23:34:17 Unknown And same for for like any job, like you spend so much of your life at your job, like, let’s make it a good place for you to spend your time, you know, And that’s like another underlying reason why I do what I do, because I’ve had a lot of jobs where, like it has not been a safe situation, where it’s a fun situation or a nice situation for me to be in.
01:23:34:17 – 01:23:59:17 Unknown I’m spending all my time there and you know, all of that. But I think really the big question is, can we change our perspective on what we need in our society based on what’s going on and where we’re headed right now? I think I think a lot of people are very perplexed and confused by where we’re going to end up and where where all of this is going.
01:23:59:17 – 01:24:24:15 Unknown And I think that clouds a lot of people’s judgment and makes them paralyzed in a way where they don’t want to move forward in a way that’s productive because they’re like just stuck in what they’ve always been doing. And I think we need to break that and we need to branch out and try more things and be creative and really tap into all the resources that we have.
01:24:24:15 – 01:24:41:18 Unknown But I think it’s really about changing our perspective on on what we want education to be. Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes Until next time.