Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this season 2 finale, two of my good friends (who I co-host another podcast with, called Your Asian Besties) interview me about my education journey. Maryn and I attended elementary school together, and Lia was Maryn’s college roommate. They ask me about my earliest memories of being a student, how I navigated between my Korean and American identities, and the worldview my mother helped me form as a creative person. We also discuss the key moments in my education journey that helped me reinvent myself, and what kind of future I hope for my daughter.
Here is our edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
00:00:03:13 – 00:00:28:18
Rée
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:28:19 – 00:00:51:10
Rée
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:51:12 – 00:01:19:21
Rée
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this season two finale, two of my good friends who I co-host another podcast with called Your Asian Besties interview me about my education journey.
00:01:19:23 – 00:01:48:03
Rée
Maryn and I attended elementary school together and Lia was Maryn’s college roommate. They ask me about my earliest memories of being a student, how I navigated between my Korean and American identities, and the worldview my mother helped me form as a creative person. We also discussed the key moments in my education journey that helped me reinvent myself, and what kind of future I hope for my daughter.
00:01:48:05 – 00:02:11:01
Rée
Here is our edited conversation right? Oh gosh, I am like really nervous. And now, like, we’re recording and I know I’ve been podcasting for like a year, but it still doesn’t feel natural because I’m usually the one asking the questions. So, anyway.
00:02:11:01 – 00:02:13:11
Maryn
Here’s the question. It’s not the answer.
00:02:13:13 – 00:02:16:01
Rée
That’s right. Exactly.
00:02:16:02 – 00:02:45:15
Maryn
Love it. But now we’re turning the tables. Today we’re getting into Rae’s story on her education journey, and we will start at the very beginning. And, you know, Rae and I actually went to elementary school together. So I did know her as a young scholar. But I’m curious, what kind of child were you? I mean, what were your how would you describe your personality and maybe your early education experiences?
00:02:45:17 – 00:03:29:14
Rée
Yeah. So I was a very quiet person, when I was in school. But when I hear stories from my caregivers and my family, of who I was before I started attending school, I was very, like, aggressive. And I was very, like, self-righteous. And I was very, like, outgoing and a little bit crazy. And so, like, my my mother tells this story, and my grandparents used to tell this story when I was younger that, I had a really good friend in our neighborhood.
00:03:29:16 – 00:03:57:06
Rée
And one day he was being bullied by, a new person, in our apartment complex or something. And he apparently hit my friend, and so I, like, grabbed my grandfather’s arm. We went to the bullies house. I wedged myself inside the door, and I went and punched him in the face. And then I grabbed my grandfather’s hand and we came back out.
00:03:57:07 – 00:04:30:17
Rée
And so, you know, this is a story that my family likes to tell people of who I used to be when I was younger. But when I think about all of the memories that I actually have, that I tell from my own perspective, I tell people I was very quiet, I was very reserved, I was very scared. I had a lot of social anxiety, and I was a very easy target, for, for bullies, because I had such low self-esteem.
00:04:30:19 – 00:04:44:06
Rée
And so there’s I’m so curious. And you reminded me that, you know, we did go to elementary school together, and I’m wondering, like, which one feels more accurate?
00:04:44:08 – 00:05:20:10
Maryn
I feel like, I guess I got glimpses of both because we would have playdates, like outside of school. And I think that’s very relatable because I think some it’s like, I’m curious, like, for you, like the messaging that you received in school, like, do you have any memories of that? Like, was there messaging different? Because I think for kids or sometimes a difference between, like their private persona where they are feeling, you know, not all kids feel safe at home, but, you know, kids may feel more safe and freer at home and then like in their public persona of when they’re because I know there’s I was a little bit like that as well.
00:05:20:10 – 00:05:41:02
Maryn
Like kind of really well behaved in public. And then I would let out all my tantrums at home. So because it has to come out somewhere. So if you’re, you know, if they’re asking you to be well-behaved all day. So I’m curious, I do you have any memories of that messaging and what that difference was? Because I saw you as being like a lively, like, young girl.
00:05:41:04 – 00:06:01:02
Maryn
And yeah, I don’t think you were a troublemaker at all. I it’s hard to remember in school, but. Thanks, principals. I think we had really strict teachers, especially in the beginning of elementary school. And so we were all quiet and well-behaved because we were afraid of getting in trouble. Oh, so that could have been part of it, to be honest.
00:06:01:04 – 00:06:57:18
Rée
Oh my gosh. Yes. And I actually started the like the podcast with that memory of being in Red cluster, of being in that second grade classroom, where I was told that I was underperforming and that I didn’t meet the standards, I was underperforming compared to all of my peers. And so I think that also, in addition to being very culturally shocked because it was so multicultural and everybody had their own, I don’t know, like there was a group standard, like there was a standard for how everybody was supposed to act or a standard for what people were supposed to be interested in talking about, or a standard for how normal families acted at
00:06:57:18 – 00:07:30:05
Rée
home. And I don’t feel like I met any of those standards. And so I think I really retreated inward. And so I really love that observation you make about how we have that public and that private, those spaces, because you’re right, from the outside messaging, I felt very scared to be who I was at home because I didn’t think that I would belong if I were to bring some of that of, of my own culture into the classroom.
00:07:30:07 – 00:07:33:13
Rée
So, yeah, that’s a really good question.
00:07:33:15 – 00:08:01:06
Lia
I wonder, hearing about your story now? Yeah, I guess so. Which one do you I mean, I’m trying to think of a good way to ask this, but like, clearly you have you are able to recall more of, like, how you were in school and at least from listening to you, the story that your family talks about you is the one that does not resonate with you.
00:08:01:06 – 00:08:05:21
Lia
Like, does that sound to. Yeah.
00:08:05:23 – 00:08:08:17
Rée
I it’s so funny.
00:08:08:19 – 00:08:23:21
Lia
Yeah. Like how do you think that influenced. Like, did that follow you past elementary school? I guess that feeling of being quiet and being. Yeah.
00:08:23:23 – 00:08:59:12
Rée
Yeah, that’s a really great question. I think when I was in elementary school, I think that’s when it started like that. Retreat inward. But, you know, as you were asking that question, I also remembered that’s how I was during real school hours. But I also went to an after school program where it was predominantly Korean children, and I was able to express myself a little bit better when I was with completely like, Korean Americans, because I felt like they could understand some of that immigrant experience.
00:08:59:13 – 00:09:31:21
Rée
Some of that like, oh, my parents don’t speak English, and we have to do all the translating, not all of the translating, but some of it. And so there was that other angle to where I was a little bit more comfortable. But I also still got the feeling, even when I was with my Korean American community, that I was different because the things that I was interested in or like, what I wanted to talk about, was never what everybody else wanted to talk about.
00:09:31:23 – 00:10:14:22
Rée
And so I think both of all of these lines, I think, traveled with me way until, until even college, actually, it wasn’t until senior year of college that I really felt like I could express my opinion and not be ostracized for it, or be criticized for it, or be thought of as weird, I guess. And so yeah, throughout my entire education journey, I, I felt like there was so much of myself that I could not express if I wanted to feel accepted by the majority.
00:10:15:00 – 00:10:16:13
Rée
So yeah, that’s a good clip.
00:10:16:13 – 00:10:40:13
Maryn
Sounds like you had to suppress a lot of your authenticity in the education setting. So I’m curious, like what was that journey like for you? Like, were you able to explore more outside of the school setting in order to kind of find, you know, move towards maybe what you wanted to major in or, you know, deciding which college you wanted to go to.
00:10:40:15 – 00:10:42:12
Maryn
What was that like for you?
00:10:42:14 – 00:11:10:11
Rée
Yeah. So my mother kind of really outsourced my education, because she didn’t have much time or energy or even, like, knowledge of what she needed to do to help me, like, be successful in society. And that kind of went across many different fields. So, like my health, I remember we didn’t eat the healthiest foods.
00:11:10:11 – 00:11:37:02
Rée
We grew up on a lot of convenience foods. My mother didn’t really cook. We did a lot of takeout, and delivery and things like that. And also, communication wise, we didn’t talk about the things that I did in school, so there was no enrichment at home. There was no follow up. And so if I had a test coming up on Tuesday, she would never know about it.
00:11:37:04 – 00:12:22:15
Rée
Right? And so there was not a lot of interest in what I was doing academically or what I was learning socially, even in school. And but what my mother did enrich me with was this idea, a philosophy of understanding my perspective. I think she instilled in me this idea of being appreciative of how the world works and knowing what your perspective is like, what it is that is unique to you, that you can add to the world’s perspective.
00:12:22:15 – 00:13:01:21
Rée
And I know this sounds really ironic because on the surface I’m like really scared of expressing myself. But below, underneath, underneath it all, I’m secretly developing this opinion and this world view, this philosophy that, you know, my mother instilled in me was a very important thing to have as an artist because I think she told me and I saw through her actions that having a voice and being an artist is kind of the epitome of success in life is to be able to offer something unique to the world that you know has never been seen.
00:13:01:23 – 00:13:38:00
Rée
This idea of originality. So to answer your question more directly, I think I was always working on experimenting with. That creativity. Right? Like how do I express myself? What can I do to express what is inside of me? And so I was always dabbling in like mixing paints or making shapes out of like paper or, you know, like pulling up the fabric that I found in a corner and making a sculpture out of it.
00:13:38:02 – 00:14:08:07
Rée
So I was always trying to transform something that was common or normal into something different or something new. And so I guess that kind of led very naturally into majoring in art and going to grad school for filmmaking and, living a creative life, I guess on the side.
00:14:08:09 – 00:14:35:02
Maryn
I mean, that’s really interesting because the values almost seem like polar opposites, right? It seemed like you felt like, okay, there’s no place for me in the academic setting. And then your mom, you know, was giving you this. Your authenticity is everything. You know as an artist to follow your own curiosity and your own inclinations. And so it’s I don’t know, I mean, in a way, it seems like very well rounded, but then obviously it’s hard.
00:14:35:03 – 00:14:55:15
Maryn
It must have been hard on you to be kind of split into and did you almost feel like you had to play a role when you were in the school setting? And what what did that. Because I think that, you know, you had that feedback early on on your education journey that you were falling behind or you weren’t performing up to standards.
00:14:55:17 – 00:15:17:22
Maryn
And I think some people can respond in one of two ways, right, where they can completely rebel and just be like, screw this, I’m going to do what I want to do. Or the opposite of like, let me try as hard as I can to, you know, be up to par and get that acceptance. Yeah. I’m curious. Yeah.
00:15:17:22 – 00:15:20:14
Maryn
Do you identify with either of those paths?
00:15:20:16 – 00:15:54:18
Rée
It’s so funny that you ask me this, because I look at both of you. Right? And you guys were you guys were able to be the goody two shoes and like meet those standards and like, do what was expected of you because not only were you capable of meeting those standards that society held of you, but like, it didn’t, conflict or it didn’t, I guess, go against what was already inside of you.
00:15:54:18 – 00:16:18:19
Rée
And so I guess to say that a little bit more neatly and to answer your question, Marin, like I couldn’t, I couldn’t meet those external expectations I couldn’t get. I mean, okay, so hold on before I go there, when I look at my, like, official academic records, like I didn’t get terrible grades, like there are lots of A’s or lots of B’s.
00:16:18:21 – 00:16:43:20
Rée
I think the worst grade that I ever got was a D. But, you know, I went to community college and I changed that, you know, like, and so and I actually did graduate with high honors in, in high school and like, you know, so if I look at just like the academic records, I didn’t do as badly as I keep saying that I did.
00:16:43:22 – 00:17:09:15
Rée
But and maybe it was like an internalized thing that but, you know, like when you’re in the maze view and you’re actually going through school with everybody in comparison to you, and you’re the last person to be called on, or people don’t want to call on you because they know you’re going to have this stupid question. That’s going to like, you know, offset the class by 20 minutes, right?
00:17:09:15 – 00:17:52:06
Rée
Like when you’re going through Maze View and you know, you’re like at the bottom of the totem pole or you’re at the bottom of the hierarchy, you know that. And like, that’s the kind of messaging that I walked away with. And so, it is polar opposite. And that that was the messaging that I received, but also, yeah, it was it was really hard to reconcile all of that when I went off to college and was constantly, well, see, now I’m kind of digressing a little bit.
00:17:52:08 – 00:17:55:13
Rée
Can you remind me of your short question period?
00:17:55:15 – 00:18:14:16
Maryn
Well, I already knew the answer to the question, but I wanted you to be honest. But I was just saying that, you know, you had that early feedback. And I’m curious, because you were not a terrible student, as you said, like you actually received high honors. And I’m wondering, like, was that early feedback, like, so impactful that it kind of haunted you for your education journey?
00:18:14:18 – 00:18:33:00
Maryn
Or were you constantly, like, feeling that way? And I think, as I was saying, like some kids might just rebel. And I mean, there was a part of me that punched some kid in the face, but it’s like you kind of split those in two, right? So it didn’t seem like that was it? But I was just.
00:18:33:00 – 00:18:58:01
Maryn
Yeah. Like some people rebelled and other people like, it kind of activates that people pleasing of, like, I need to do this to be accepted. I need to do this to be recognized. And, you know, me being a close friend to you, I know education has been such a huge focus of your life and a theme of your life, and you went on to work in education and, you have a podcast, you know, about the education system.
00:18:58:03 – 00:19:25:07
Maryn
So, so it, you know, from the outside looking in, it appears to me that you it kind of lit a fire under you to, you know, change the system, but also kind of like work within the system as well. Like in my mind, I think you did make a choice when you majored in art, right? To kind of choose that path that your mom was ingraining in you.
00:19:25:09 – 00:19:47:04
Maryn
But you didn’t totally rebel like, you didn’t drop out of high school. You didn’t drop out of college. You weren’t like, you know, being a behavior problem or, you know, completely delinquent on assignments or anything like that. So I’m just curious, like, emotionally, what was that like for you? Because from the outside looking in, it did seem like there was like something to prove there.
00:19:47:04 – 00:19:51:05
Maryn
And yeah, you know, maybe that was part of the motivation.
00:19:51:07 – 00:20:38:16
Rée
Yeah. And I think it’s a good thing that you’re pulling this podcast into, the conversation. I think the reason I started the podcast was because you’re right. I was trying to reconcile that difference of like, I am not enough, but actually, maybe I was enough, and maybe I’m just looking at it from a very warped view. And I think the, the really big underlying theme that I discovered while having started the podcast is that it was during my, when I was pregnant that I realized that my brain doesn’t work the same as what is considered normal.
00:20:38:18 – 00:21:12:18
Rée
Right. And that I was neurodivergent and that, you know, I’m in that Bermuda Triangle of like, is it autism, is it PTSD, is it ADHD? And like I haven’t gotten an official diagnosis and I won’t be getting an official diagnosis, because I already know all of the strategies that have helped with, you know, people who have any of these who, who experience any of these things.
00:21:12:18 – 00:21:46:17
Rée
I’m already using the same strategies to help me. And they’re very much helping. And so I was very upset because I think the education system is really set up in a way where we’re told to conform to what is beneficial for the economy, but at the expense of our health and our joy. And that made me so angry because as somebody who learns, I have an interest based nervous system, right?
00:21:46:17 – 00:22:13:05
Rée
So the way that I learn best is by following my own curiosity. And I have very good questions, but I’m not going to have those questions if you make me learn something that I have zero interest in. Or, you know, I’m going to create something that is meaningful and can help other people. But it’s only when I get to decide what that is on my terms.
00:22:13:07 – 00:22:45:03
Rée
And there’s no space or time in the education system for students or young people to actually figure out what their gifts are and let alone be able to have that space of exploration and experimentation and something that, you know, we talked about in our own, in my conversations with you, Marin and Leah, in our other episodes is this idea of,
00:22:45:05 – 00:23:38:12
Rée
Like experimentation of, like, meeting everybody’s needs first and not meeting ours and having to do, what we’re supposed to do and forgetting what brings us joy. And I just think that that’s so unfair for our young people because, like, there’s so much research out there that shows that people, students are more engaged when they’re working in connection with people, in collaboration with people, when they’re working towards something that is meaningful, versus just having to be brainwashed into being told, oh, you need to know all of these things because this is what’s going to make you the most productive, in, in our economy.
00:23:38:13 – 00:23:58:10
Rée
And it’s very capitalistic. And so I just felt like emotionally, this is unfair and we need to do something that is actually helpful, for society. So I’m pretty sure I rambled there a little bit, but.
00:23:58:12 – 00:24:32:01
Lia
Yeah, rambling. This is all a good story. So when I when I wanted to zoom out a little bit. So you talked about right there is like these two selves are identity, right. Like, you know, you wanted to be able to express yourself. And also you were trying to work within a system that didn’t allow you to do that and that, but a fast forwarding right to to the why of this podcast as to what you learned about yourself and how you know, like and how best you know, how do you thrive.
00:24:32:03 – 00:25:10:00
Lia
So I’m curious, and Marianne started to ask this, when you decide on your major, for instance, is kind of like where I start to see the pieces integrate, where you were able to start to self express. And I’m curious how much of that, like, did you start to feel freer or how much did your past messaging and past education prepare you for, being, you know, an art major, or did you still find like this disconnect act in conforming to, you know, like higher education or, you know, like, did you start to feel some of that?
00:25:10:02 – 00:25:16:03
Lia
Yeah, like becoming a little bit closer to the whole I’m curious. Yeah. How how that part was.
00:25:16:05 – 00:25:49:19
Rée
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a really great question because well, so what I learned as an art major is that, I had a lot of unresolved trauma, like a lot of processing, that I couldn’t do. So I think when were younger, we don’t have the the brain developed, and we actually need people to process our lived experiences with us.
00:25:49:21 – 00:26:16:23
Rée
And to tell us like, oh, it’s okay, we’re safe. We’re okay, we’re going to get through this. But I didn’t really have that right. Like, my mother was too busy. My grandparents and I didn’t speak the same language. My, you know, like, everybody was sort of just helping out, like, I didn’t really have, like, a totally with it caretaker who could help me process my entire life.
00:26:17:01 – 00:26:45:16
Rée
And, you know, we all know that we don’t get that in school either. And so, I was always exploring that through my writing or through my creation, but it wasn’t until I became an art major, and I actually had professors who were really interested in helping me understand my lived experiences. That’s when I actually started to, like, process my childhood.
00:26:45:18 – 00:27:17:02
Rée
And so all of every prompt, like every class, everything that I was learning in school was kind of like therapy, in a way. And there was this one teacher, e.g. Creighton, who Marin we interviewed in our own project. Ten years ago, where she had us design a persona, who we would create art from for, like the entire semester or something.
00:27:17:04 – 00:27:56:01
Rée
And so it wasn’t us, but we had to design this whole other person’s alias. And the person who I designed was a CIA agent. And, you know, like, she would kick ass and she, like, could speak multiple languages. She was very bold and she was very, assertive and, like, creating this persona really changed my life because that was the first time that I realized, oh, I don’t have to be the person that I was.
00:27:56:03 – 00:28:22:16
Rée
I don’t have to be the person that people think I am. I can actually be a person that I want to be, and that was the first time I was able to take myself out of this, like, victim mentality where I thought, okay, everything that is happening in the world or happening to me, I deserve, you know, I can actually create my own life.
00:28:22:18 – 00:28:53:07
Rée
And Leah, in many ways, I loved our conversation when we did Meta State, because you were designing your own life like you were writing books and like creating this whole idea of designing your life around what you want. And so that was like right after, that was still a bit of time. That was a long time after, you know, my professor helped me, changed my life, but, it it was very relevant.
00:28:53:07 – 00:29:23:04
Rée
And it is relevant constantly in my life. Like, that’s the lesson that I have to relearn, like, every year, is that I don’t have to be this one person. I can reinvent myself whenever I want, however I want, and I wish that that’s something that I have learned in school. You know that you’re not just defined by these external markers that they have for you, where they compare you against all of your peers.
00:29:23:06 – 00:29:47:17
Rée
And so to answer your question more directly, I it was such a change of pace for me where I actually allowed myself and where I learned that I didn’t have to be bound by those limiting what I didn’t know were beliefs, limiting beliefs. But that’s what they were. They were limiting beliefs. So yeah, that’s a really great question.
00:29:47:17 – 00:29:49:20
Rée
Thank you.
00:29:49:22 – 00:29:55:07
Maryn
I mean, what what was the persona’s name again? I remember that we were talking and we talked a lot in.
00:29:55:09 – 00:30:01:10
Rée
Victoria S Lee Victoria Scholar Lee. But if you say it really fast, it’s victoriously.
00:30:01:10 – 00:30:25:12
Maryn
Victoriously. Yes. And you the thing that struck me is the connection between that persona and the little ray that you were describing early on that punched the boy in the face, fighting for justice. So that like, seems like a very key moment to me in your journey. Where did you feel that now your authentic self could emerge in the education setting?
00:30:25:14 – 00:30:45:04
Maryn
You know that you could bring that in during this like experiment. And I’m wondering how you were feeling during that time in art school, because it sounds like you felt maybe more accepted, or I’d love to know, like, did you finally feel that? Okay, I belong here and I’m free to express myself.
00:30:45:06 – 00:31:22:15
Rée
Yeah. And so I think the best part of, like, being an art major and then going to art school for grad school is that, most people are in these art programs because they have those childhood wounds of being not accepted for who they were, naturally. And so I feel very much at home when I am like at an art school or when I am with artists or creatives, because we’re really I feel like creative creativity comes from.
00:31:22:17 – 00:31:56:09
Rée
So I have this theory that like imagination really is dissociation, right? And that like anything creative, is actually on paper a trauma. It’s it’s not a norm like for and like innovation comes from need. Right. And so I feel like when people are creative, it’s because they are it’s like a mature defense. It’s a defense against having feeling like you didn’t belong somewhere and or that you were not acceptable as you were.
00:31:56:11 – 00:32:41:14
Rée
And so I feel very comfortable in places where there are lots of creatives and it’s like we kind of trauma bond. It’s like, oh, why are you in art school? You know, or like, why are you in therapy? It’s it’s kind of like cynic dokey. And so I just kind of think I do feel very much more home and in my element when I’m with people who realize what they’ve been through and, and they are trying to change the world in a way where they are trying to make other people feel inclusive and to say, hey, you’re not abnormal or you’re not strange like you.
00:32:41:16 – 00:32:53:19
Rée
You as who you are have a place in this world. There’s a place for you. And, let’s make that, let’s make that happen. So yeah.
00:32:53:21 – 00:33:24:11
Maryn
Yeah, I love, like, the definition you gave of creativity, because that seems like the perfect description of that experiment of the persona. It kind of created a safe space for you to express your authenticity. And without that, it like, you wouldn’t just walk in, like with CIA clothing and just start acting like a badass. So, I mean, so, like, from what I’m hearing from your story and everything.
00:33:24:13 – 00:33:55:06
Maryn
Yeah. I’m curious. Like what from these positive experiences that you had, in college, would you have like to apply, you know, to your earlier education? Because, yeah, from that definition, it sounds like, you know, the education system could be like a big version of that assignment, you know, that, she gave you and, like, be this safe space for the students to express their authenticity and kind of have curiosity.
00:33:55:06 – 00:34:04:08
Maryn
And, so I’m curious your thoughts on that. First, I won’t I won’t talk on another one. That’s probably another. I was like, wait, wait.
00:34:04:12 – 00:34:05:08
Rée
Don’t give me another.
00:34:05:08 – 00:34:09:06
Maryn
Question. I know, I.
00:34:09:07 – 00:34:39:00
Rée
Know, it is. It’s a very big question. I think in general, I think the education system at large is a very top down kind of format where they want to lead by control and they say these are the ways that you can be successful, and school is really only there to get you to college in, in many ways.
00:34:39:02 – 00:34:54:07
Rée
And I think that’s like the carrot that they dangle in front of your face saying, hey, you need to learn this because you need to get to the next grade. Why do you need to get to the next grade? Because you need to get to the grade after that. Why do you need to get to that grade?
00:34:54:12 – 00:35:20:05
Rée
Well, because you need to go to college. Why do you need to go to college? Because if you go to college, you’ll have a better life, right? And it’s just this constant what’s next? What’s next, what’s next? But nobody is really asking, well, what is it all for? And, it’s like all of the guests and all of the conversations that I’ve been having is, well, what should the purpose of education be?
00:35:20:07 – 00:36:07:21
Rée
Right? And what should it be if it’s not to give our children, our young people, the ability to show us what their gifts are, and apply that to changing the factors and the situation in our world where there are so many inequitable balances of power. And if it’s not to right that wrong or like, right those wrongs, I don’t even know if that’s the right way to say it, but, to sort of equalize it in a way where everybody has a piece of that equity.
00:36:07:23 – 00:36:18:05
Rée
And so I guess, like the overall experiment, that I would love to see going forward is.
00:36:18:07 – 00:36:57:14
Rée
To give our young people the ability to solve those problems from a very young age, to say, hey, these are the problems that we’re grappling with. These are the issues in the world that have not been solved yet. What angle do you see? What perspectives do you have? What talents do you have? What abilities do you what questions do you have around these existing challenges that you think you can add to move the needle in the direction we all need to go, to go, so that we all have a chance at sharing that equity.
00:36:57:16 – 00:37:28:19
Rée
And I think, there’s something, Leah, that you said in our conversation, many, many episodes, episodes ago where you really wish that there was a type of mentorship that was going on, right where people were student or teachers and caregivers could look at the students and say, hey, this is kind of what your dreams are. This is kind of the problems that you want to tackle.
00:37:28:21 – 00:38:00:00
Rée
These are your gifts. Kent, let’s reflect on your past week. Let’s reflect on your past month. What was successful? How when did you feel successful reaching that goal? You know, and reflect on what are the things that you know you are doing right, that is gearing you in that direction that you want to head in? And so it’s a very like individualized approach.
00:38:00:02 – 00:38:31:01
Rée
But it’s a much more enjoyable and meaningful approach in many ways. And so I think like the overall experiment is to not make it top down, but to make it bottom up, where we’re leading with the children’s, I don’t want to say children because they’re young people. We’re focusing on we’re centering their interests, their dreams, their perspectives, their questions.
00:38:31:03 – 00:38:39:13
Rée
And so the experiment is, is something around that, like flipping the entire pyramid or whatever shape. Yeah.
00:38:39:15 – 00:39:05:18
Maryn
Well, I was curious about, like, moving into your career. I mean, it sounds like you had, you know, a more positive experience in art school. In college. That seems like, you know, that would be the template that you would be recommending that would prepare people more. So I’m curious, like, how did did that prepare you for your career in helping you to figure out what you wanted to do post college?
00:39:05:20 – 00:39:53:04
Rée
So I all right, so this is the really tricky part because, it’s the capitalism that I always forget to factor into the equation because capitalism says, you know, you need to provide something of value in order for you to earn the Social Security to just be alive. And so, like, I when you’re starting out as a young creative with like, no patrons, I guess, you have very like, I didn’t really have much to prove, like, oh, yeah, I’m a creative person, but I didn’t have, like, an Emmy Award winning film under my belt.
00:39:53:04 – 00:40:26:21
Rée
Right. Like, it’s really hard to escalate in the world when there isn’t, when you haven’t really produced much of value to, prove that you are somebody of value. And so there was this other piece where I knew that I was really passionate about education because I didn’t feel like education had prepared me. And so I was like, all right, well, the only natural thing to do is to figure out how to teach.
00:40:26:23 – 00:40:58:14
Rée
And so I tried to navigate a path around that. How what is the best way for me to be able to be creative and express my creativity and, you know, work with communications because art, I think art and design is really communication. How can I teach communication? And so I had to sort of like cobble together a life that made sense for that, for that.
00:40:58:16 – 00:41:35:03
Rée
And so, I spent a lot of time in Korea because I think, coincidentally, I think Korea is constantly trying to globalize their citizens and teach them English. And that was something that I really loved. Right. And so I was able to find opportunities, but not in the country that was my home, or in the country that, you know, I was born and raised in, that could give me the security that I needed, and also the interest.
00:41:35:05 – 00:42:03:13
Rée
So I, I felt like in many ways, the education system prepared me for, like, having endurance, and meeting other people’s expectations. But I don’t think it prepared me for knowing where to step next and to feel secure in where I’m stepping. I don’t know if that makes sense, but yeah.
00:42:03:15 – 00:42:33:00
Maryn
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I mean, I think one thing we always talk about is how in school we think of it as a quote unquote meritocracy, where it’s like people competing, you know, to rank higher against these standardized measures. But the real world capitalism, you know, it doesn’t work like that. There’s a lot of privilege and connections, especially in the art world, in entertainment that’s involved.
00:42:33:02 – 00:43:09:15
Maryn
But yeah, I mean, how was your experience starting out working in Korea? Was it different than your education experience? Like, I’m curious, I guess at this point, kind of having traveled with you through the education system and then into your career, like, are there kind of bits and pieces that you take from every point of it? And also what struck me is that you do tend to make your big decisions, like in terms of where you went to art school, I mean, where you decide you go to college, what you decided to major in, then, what you decided to do for your career, that it all came from your authenticity and what was
00:43:09:15 – 00:43:16:19
Maryn
going to give you purpose in your life despite all of the, you know, hurdles that you had?
00:43:16:21 – 00:43:21:05
Rée
Yeah, that’s a really good point. I think,
00:43:21:07 – 00:43:27:18
Maryn
The other option is that you just wanted to bring the whole system down into something totally different.
00:43:27:20 – 00:43:55:19
Rée
Well, so these are really good. These are really good. This is good fodder for my thinking. But, I think something that you mentioned that I think is really important here is this idea of making connections. Right. And I think what’s important is, you know, my mother being an immigrant didn’t have a lot of connections with people in high places.
00:43:55:21 – 00:44:26:08
Rée
Right. So she couldn’t just call up, a college friend and be like, hey, my daughter is graduating. She, needs this job or whatever. She wasn’t able to pull some of those strings for me in in, in the States because she didn’t have those connections. And I just felt very much like, well, I’m going to chart my own path in my authenticity and do what I feel is right and what is bringing me meaning.
00:44:26:10 – 00:44:50:22
Rée
But at the same time, I think if there were connections, I probably would have gone down those roots. You know, in addition to or instead of. Right. And so I guess in many ways I’m thankful, I guess, because it turned out that I, you know, I do enjoy where I am in my life right now.
00:44:51:00 – 00:45:26:07
Rée
And but I wish that. Like, based on that experiment I was telling you about, where it’s a bottom up approach of, mass schooling. I do think I do wish that I was able to create a portfolio of sorts while I was in high school, right where I was able to work with, audiences or, companies or organizations that were that I was already interested in.
00:45:26:09 – 00:46:01:13
Rée
And so that I could have had some kind of resume, that, or CV that could have been meaningful in my job hunt. That could have earned me a place where I didn’t have to, you know, travel like 20,000km, I don’t know, miles whatever away from home to find the opportunities that I did. And, yeah, I just sort of wish that there was, more time to reflect on the experiences that I had.
00:46:01:15 – 00:46:26:16
Rée
And, I, I just wish, like, because it’s not a new thing, like, we know that every year, thousands and thousands and thousands of young people are going to graduate, and they’re going to need avenues to chart their own paths. And so it’s not like, oh, oops. Like it’s not something that we get last minute. Right. We know this systematically.
00:46:26:19 – 00:46:46:00
Rée
We can design, we can create structures and put structures in place where it’s a little more efficient, to help young people figure out where they’re going to go next. And so, yeah.
00:46:46:02 – 00:47:06:19
Lia
One thing I want to bring up, and I’m curious to, to get your take, since I think you’re already fired up, what do you think of having to wait until college, 13 years to even feel like you belonged in the education system? And what do you wish, you know could have happened differently.
00:47:06:21 – 00:47:16:16
Rée
Right? Yeah. Do you mean specifically, like, career wise or like what we learned?
00:47:16:17 – 00:47:49:12
Lia
Well, college is an investment, right? I mean, you have to pay for it. That’s kind of like the dangly carrot to get you through conforming, you know, from, from, you know, kinder through through 12th grade. Right. And to only, like. You know, at least right with the, with the narrative of, you know, you had to do well enough to have this better life and that college unlocks that for you.
00:47:49:14 – 00:48:12:15
Lia
But, you know, at least when I hear that right, I think of little Rey, like, wasting a lot of time that she could have been doing a lot more impactful, aligning, authentic work. You know, interesting work. Right? And, you know, like, what could that look like? I guess is is what I’m, you know, curious about. And you start to go a little about this on the bottoms up approach.
00:48:12:17 – 00:48:26:09
Lia
But, I mean, where does college play into that or what would take the place of an institution like college? You know, if people could get there earlier and sooner?
00:48:26:11 – 00:48:48:15
Rée
Yeah. So this is a really good question. And something that I think a lot about. Right. Is, you know, I have a daughter and I think this podcast kind of exists because I’m like a her. I don’t want to make the same mistakes that my mother did. I want to actually be prepared for what I’m getting myself into.
00:48:48:17 – 00:49:19:15
Rée
And so it’s kind of like me think tanking with, like, everybody about, well, how can I be the best mom that I can be? I mean, I’m already feeling in so many different parts, but there’s one part that’s really important to me, and I want to be able to prepare her for success in the future. You know, in her career and, I think college is so expensive now.
00:49:19:17 – 00:50:00:08
Rée
And it’s so unaffordable for so many. And it’s such a scam. It’s like, okay, we’re going to prepare you, for 13 years to get you into college. But instead of actually preparing you for life, we’re going to teach you all of these things just so you can look good on paper, and then you’re going to spend, I don’t know, you’re going to take out a $200,000 loan or even more or however less, to make sure that you are chained into the system for the rest of your life, paying off that debt so you never deviate, and you always know your place, and you’re going to go off and make money for
00:50:00:08 – 00:50:26:11
Rée
the economy for as long as you can pay that debt back. And I just think it’s so it’s such a, it’s such a scam. And so when I’m looking at the future and I’m looking at, how far we’ve come from the Industrial revolution or the model of the industrial revolution, I’m seeing that we need people who are well connected.
00:50:26:13 – 00:50:51:22
Rée
They have good communication skills. They can, package themselves however they need to for the next opportunity. They have that resilience and that endurance, but also they have they know what brings them meaning. They know what they’re interested in. They know what problems they want to solve. They know what kind of issues matter to them. They know what their traumas are.
00:50:51:22 – 00:51:28:05
Rée
They know they’ve processed their lived experiences, and they know what truly matters to them. And I envision a world where college isn’t necessary. I want, school, compulsory education to be able to support, to to give us all of those skills that we need to learn in college so that we don’t have to go to college. Because there are so many other opportunities now that are so much more useful and so much more beneficial in many ways than college ever will be.
00:51:28:06 – 00:52:02:15
Rée
And so, I mean, I don’t know if I have to share some examples, but like, you know, you can learn anything now, if you want to get better at writing, there’s like, you know, so many groups like Rite of Passage, if you want to learn systems thinking, you go to ideas. Right? Like there are just so many independent places that give you the personalized attention and the feedback that you need, the constructive criticism that you actually need to get exactly where you need to go next.
00:52:02:17 – 00:52:28:12
Rée
And, and so you don’t. Yeah. Like you, there are just many more opportunities now than there were before, with such a well connected, I guess, world now that we live in, and so yes, you’re right, Leah, like you did, I was fired up, and now I’m even more fired up.
00:52:28:14 – 00:52:29:14
Maryn
But,
00:52:29:16 – 00:53:01:22
Rée
Yeah, but, I just kind of think about how can we make compulsory education useful so that you don’t actually have to go to college? And how can we get you into society and into the real world as fast as possible so that, you know, like companies are sponsoring your scholarships? Or like your experimentation or your exploration?
00:53:02:00 – 00:53:44:10
Rée
How can we get, people who how can we create mutually beneficial symbiotic relationships with organizations and companies and independent, independence. Right. That can that can teach you while you learn something. And so, yeah, I, I, I’m not really sure what those things will look like, but I, have a lot of people who I’ve spoke to, who I spoke to in season three that’s going to be coming up that are going to have a lot of responses to this.
00:53:44:12 – 00:53:52:17
Rée
And so I’m really looking forward to sharing those conversations. Yeah. Sharing those conversations the next four months.
00:53:52:19 – 00:54:17:11
Lia
What I was going to say was, so there’s this interesting analogy. I was listening to a design podcast, and this design leader who I respect, talks about how we should stop thinking of a career as a career ladder and instead of as a career playground. And the reason being right is when you’re on a playground, it brings so much joy.
00:54:17:11 – 00:54:38:01
Lia
You get to dabble on the sly, then the swings, you know, try things out. Kids on the playground are not judging each other for what they’re doing. You know, there’s not that competition. You know, there’s people just trying to work. They might fail. They might fall off the monkey bars and try again or run to something else. And that’s that image that you’re bringing up for me.
00:54:38:06 – 00:55:00:05
Lia
So my question to you is, yes, like we can think of how do we rethink the whole education? But I’m particularly curious if you have any ideas or insights or intentions yet, and how you want to raise your daughter to make sure that as she is growing up in this next generation, how how do you create this for her specifically?
00:55:00:07 – 00:55:28:19
Rée
Yeah, thank you for asking that question. So I’m noticing that my daughter, so I, I think with every child, you have to look at what their strengths are and what their natural inclinations are. And when I look at my daughter like, she is very, very curious, she is very, very, very assertive. And she also really enjoys being on camera.
00:55:29:00 – 00:55:56:17
Rée
She enjoys talking. She enjoys learning new words. She loves being asked questions. And so she’ll actually set up the conversation in a way where she’ll be like, what am I eating? And, it’s like I’m not supposed to answer the question. I’m supposed to repeat the question back to her so she will not stop asking the question until I repeat the question back to her.
00:55:56:18 – 00:56:26:14
Rée
And then when I ask the question, what are you eating? Then she’ll give me, like, the whole, like response. And so she’ll actually set up conversations with people with a question because she wants you to ask her the question. And so when I’m watching my daughter and I’m seeing that she is very different from me and that she’s very comfortable in front of the camera and I’m very comfortable behind it.
00:56:26:16 – 00:56:58:03
Rée
I’m just thinking about, well, you know, she does have that personality and she does have that presence on camera. So maybe I have to find opportunities where she is in the limelight, where she does have that attention on her and giving her, the, the attention of, like, asking her questions and drawing out her interests. And, she also really loves like.
00:56:58:05 – 00:57:12:05
Rée
Well, yeah. So anyway, I think those are the things that I’m trying to do with my daughter now, is just to watch her and give her the opportunities where she can do more of what brings her joy.
00:57:12:07 – 00:57:14:04
Lia
I love that.
00:57:14:06 – 00:57:35:06
Maryn
Yeah. I mean, that’s a beautiful thing because I think that’s like a full circle moment in that you, you know, talked a lot through your journey that you didn’t have that guidance necessarily of how to succeed in school or you didn’t feel like you could. And then you didn’t have that guidance of how you could make that leap from college to your dream career.
00:57:35:06 – 00:57:57:07
Maryn
There is a missing piece there, but I think through it all, you have followed your gut and you have tried to change the things that were not there for you. And then I think it’s just like a beautiful healing moment that now you are going to be that guide for your daughter to nurture her early interest and provide that for her.
00:57:57:11 – 00:58:09:18
Maryn
So I think you should just be very proud and you’re definitely part of the solution with your podcast and all the conversations that you’re having. And yeah, big props to you. This is.
00:58:09:20 – 00:58:10:11
Lia
It feels like a.
00:58:10:11 – 00:58:12:08
Maryn
Movie. I know you don’t give yourself enough.
00:58:12:10 – 00:58:30:11
Lia
Yeah, you are starting a movement and you’re getting folks talking about this and like, I want to take action. I’m like, am I being intentional enough? And yeah, screw college. Like I don’t need my kids do that unless they get scholarships. You know?
00:58:30:13 – 00:58:56:12
Rée
Oh, thank you guys. I really I’m really thankful for this conversation. I was like, what should I do for my season two finale? And I was going to write another paper and do a whole other recap. But then I was like, actually, I’ve been really enjoying my conversations with you guys on our podcast, Your Asian Besties. And I was like, actually, this feels like more enjoyable.
00:58:56:14 – 00:59:17:16
Rée
I want to have a conversation about these things. And I was so thankful when you guys, I mean, literally, I asked you guys if you would interview me and like, I don’t know, five minutes didn’t pass and you were like, yeah, absolutely. Count me in. And then when I sent you guys the calendar invite like five minutes after each other, you guys accepted it.
00:59:17:16 – 00:59:41:11
Rée
And I was like, I just felt so loved. I don’t know how to explain that gratitude or that feeling of feeling loved, but I really appreciate you guys, agreeing to interview me on my podcast. And so thank you for this. Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes.
00:59:41:13 – 00:59:42:11
Rée
Until next time.