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00:00:01:05 – 00:00:33:12 Speaker 1 I think there have been breadcrumbs along the way that when my brain decided to pay attention and I want to be very clear, I think this is a luxury. Anybody who has the time and space, even if it’s just for a day to come into consciousness of the glass shattering in your head. Something is going on there. I want to be clear.
00:00:33:12 – 00:01:01:17 Speaker 1 I think some people reach it because they hit a crisis mode. I think other people reach it because, well, I’m currently not, you know, raising a baby or trying to get through school or trying to feed my family or, you know, there just comes a moment where it’s different for everyone. I would love somebody to do some research on this if it hasn’t already been done.
00:01:01:19 – 00:01:28:22 Speaker 1 You know, the different fluctuations, the moments when our brains are ready. And so when I was younger, my parents were very, very clear. If you are adopted, we love you. To them, that was enough. Love is enough. The end. And that worked for me for a really long time. It did. And in some ways, it continues to as I then add pieces to that puzzle.
00:01:29:00 – 00:01:48:10 Speaker 1 So I went to Heritage Camp as a kid. My mom and a friend of hers, when I was in third grade, put together with the Teacher a Korean culture segment. You know, they went to the market. Who knows how far away to get kimchi? And we made you know, we practiced with chopsticks and we did a little history.
00:01:48:12 – 00:02:09:11 Speaker 1 And what’s so interesting about that is that if someone explicitly said to me, your mom’s helping with this, and we’re doing this for you, like for your benefit and your classmates benefit, I didn’t pick up on it. I almost a little bit have a memory of what a coincidence. This is so cool. We’re having a unit on this, and I happen to be Korean.
00:02:09:11 – 00:02:28:20 Speaker 1 You know, there was just no, it probably should have been obvious. But that’s just one example of just how disconnected I was from so many things, you know, little seedlings. And if I look back at old, I have just recently gone through this because we made a very big move recently. When you go through all of the childhood things that you save.
00:02:28:22 – 00:02:48:09 Speaker 1 So I did have a lot of awareness. I wrote pretty frequently from as early on as middle school. You know what makes you unique? Oh, I’m from Korea, so I had more awareness than I. Thinking back, thought that I did, which is great, you know? And then as I started to, I believe I probably ignored it the most when I got into middle school.
00:02:48:09 – 00:03:16:10 Speaker 1 And then I did a senior project in high school just, you know, very barebones Wikipedia based. Well, at the time, it would have been like Encyclopedia Britannica online, right? Korean culture project. And then I got to college and just sort of, you know, became a mess like everybody else. But my senior year, I did a final project for a diversity studies minor that I can’t even believe I was mature enough to get myself into. And a classmate and I did a final project presentation on finding organic ways to put yourself in positions. So maybe not organic if you do that, where you are somebody who doesn’t look like everybody else. So for her as a white woman going abroad for the first time and realizing, oh, you know, you intellectually know I’m going to a different country, so everyone’s not going to look like me, but you don’t know until you get there. And she had this experience of. So she started coming up against the mirror in a very natural way about her white privilege. And what does that mean? And she never would have had to think about it had she never had that experience. And for me, in an opposite way, going to college and receiving service in at the time in our mailboxes, not online. Hi, Jenna. How are you? You are a person of color on this campus. And we just want to make sure you’re okay. Would you like to come to the Office of Multicultural Affairs? We’re here for you. And I would get these fliers and be just dumbfounded. Why am I getting these? Why am I being treated in with extra support in a way that I don’t identify? And even at that time, I found that to be confusing. And I was smart enough to like, think this is a clue, and then I would forget about it.
You know, I joined the Asian Student Coalition. You know, I started, you know, but there were we were. So it’s such a small school. It wasn’t like there was a Korean club, you know, it was international students from Nepal, from Israel know we were from China.
00:04:59:10 – 00:05:26:17 Speaker 1 We were everywhere. There was me and, you know, more bread crumbs. We would go to conferences that were really designed for first generation Asian Americans. And I would go and, like, fit in, but not really fit in because I didn’t grow up with Asian parents. So that was another clue. Something’s going on here. Then, you know, I got into my career and I ended up in higher education a little bit by default, but it ended up being a good fit, you know, in my life.
00:05:26:19 – 00:05:51:21 Speaker 1 And I would include people like you as as part of this. There have just been folks who I’m eternally grateful for. And and I think we have them. Everyone has them. They reach out to you. It’s a teacher, it’s a coach, it’s a future boss. And since I have more life experience than you and I think he would be good at this, or I think that you should try this and having the courage to or blind faith.
00:05:51:21 – 00:06:10:15 Speaker 1 I don’t know what you want to call it. To say yes has happened to me several times in my life, and this was one of those moments where they are they still continue to be mentors and really good friends of mine. When I graduated from college, I went off somewhere else for about a year and they called me back and they said, We think you would be good at this.
00:06:10:17 – 00:06:30:01 Speaker 1 And what it was, was a job in Student Life administration. It was entry level. At the time, though, as I started to learn more, it probably should not have been entry level. I was in charge of the student discipline process for the university, which is a big, big, big, big, big job that they said to me at the time.
00:06:30:01 – 00:06:56:11 Speaker 1 They were looking for someone who would have the energy to build a program around it. And there’s a lot of case law, it’s a lot of code of student conduct, building policy, implementing processes, procedures. You know, it’s a lot of process based things. But then also having the ability to sit down with students and parents as a 23 year old, by the way, which is how old I was to say, well, yeah, you did this, and that’s violating code Part B of the code.
00:06:56:11 – 00:07:19:22 Speaker 1 And so we have to take it to this process for a hearing and then you’ll have an appeal process. And it might be that you are no longer able to attend the school or whatever it was. So I ended up building this program over the course of five years when I realized I went to conferences with a lot of older white men and realized, Oh, this, this probably shouldn’t be an entry level position.
00:07:20:00 – 00:07:47:20 Speaker 1 Getting paid $3 an hour is a lot of responsibility. So I went and got my degree and I lobbied to take my office out of the department that was in. And B, I became a director of my own office to run this program. So it was my whole life has been a lot of trying to prove myself. And so when I came out of that, having worked many, many hours at the school, it’s like a thankless job, you know, It’s a lot of work, a lot of energy, a lot of reward.
00:07:47:22 – 00:08:08:20 Speaker 1 But we ended up moving out of that town that we loved and moving away from the job and the people and friends and community we had developed again. First taste of a small town. Wow, This is what a community feels like, right? This is what it means to go to the grocery store and know everybody, go to the market street festivals and go to the parades.
00:08:08:20 – 00:08:27:21 Speaker 1 And the local high school is very big, you know, that kind of thing too. Moving to the Philadelphia suburbs where we intentionally wanted a place that if we ever had kids, they would have some identity in the place that they were. And this is again, before I started coming into consciousness about my Korean-American identity or how adoption played a role in my life.
00:08:27:21 – 00:08:49:15 Speaker 1 But even then I knew that I knew identity was important and I knew that inner connectedness and being with others was important. So add on to that me as a new stay at home mom with my son, who both my kids were very good babies. You know, toddler land is a whole different story. But as babies, they slept a lot.
00:08:49:15 – 00:09:13:09 Speaker 1 And I was used to work at 60 hours a week. So when this opportunity came up and this here is another situation where somebody said, we think you should run for mayor of our small town. That’s literally how it happened. I want to say that I was going out there to make a difference and be a face to lead and none of that was true.
00:09:13:12 – 00:09:35:09 Speaker 1 It was after a little while when I realized that what I was getting to and started actually doing the work. But at the time it was I could do this. And someone asked me and gosh, how hard could it be? So, you know, how many times do we do things in life where, Oh, if only we knew then what we know now?
00:09:35:11 – 00:10:12:18 Speaker 1 But both of the situations that I outlined, both like sort of my first big job out of college and someone saying, hey, do you want to be mayor? You know, gosh, they’ve been the most rewarding things ever, plus having my children, but in a professional sense, having the opportunity and someone saying, Why don’t you give this a try has been so I had this foundation of liking people, liking events like in community, and that’s how I ended up in the mayor’s office.
00:10:12:20 – 00:11:01:12 Speaker 2 Oh, my gosh, there’s there’s so much here. But you said trying so hard to prove myself. And I think that kind of thought came up again through multiple things that we’ve already talked about today alone, about this thread of feeling like you need to prove yourself. And yet the two experience is the two professional experiences that you had that were very rewarding for you were things that you received because somebody already thought you would be a good fit for.
00:11:01:14 – 00:11:31:17 Speaker 1 I think and I’ve thought about this a lot in raising my own children, which I have to say, as you were going through your own identity analysis and as you are learning more about early childhood development and oh gosh, you know, touch and warmth and connection and attachment and all those things, turns out are super real and scientifically based, which I think I just never thought about.
00:11:31:17 – 00:11:57:12 Speaker 1 I mean, I’m not really sure who was thinking about that, like as a teenager or young adult. But even when I first had my son, you know, I tried to be like very by the book, very old school that here’s how you should act, here’s how you should be out in public, you know, all things and thinking really hard about a few simple things of how do we express emotion and were we allowed to do that as a child, etc..
00:11:57:12 – 00:12:23:16 Speaker 1 And I think that all parents do the best they can every day. Well, okay, Most parents do the best they can every day. And I think Dr. Becky, the parenting expert, says as long as you are even thinking by doing a good job, you probably are. Well, that’s probably true of so many things. You had some awareness. I do think awareness is 90% of it, of everything.
00:12:23:20 – 00:12:42:17 Speaker 1 You have some awareness, you’re probably probably showing up and doing the best you can. And I believe I was raised in a pretty, for lack of a better phrase. I was raised in a pretty old school way. You know, you do what you’re supposed to do. Of course you’re supposed to do your homework. We’re not going to overly dote on you because we don’t want your head to be too big.
00:12:42:19 – 00:13:06:03 Speaker 1 And, you know, we have a lot of quiet pride for you. I know my parents love me. I know they are so proud of me. They weren’t real verbal people about it. And as I know myself now and I’m a nerd. And do you know the meeting I in the Enneagram in the strengths class? If there’s an assessment out there, I’ve taken it because I find those to be so fascinating, knowing what I know about myself.
00:13:06:03 – 00:13:26:21 Speaker 1 Now I’m just wired to be someone who needs a lot of feedback. Former student who’s now a friend of mine and he has a running joke. Even before I knew any of these things, like really about myself, we both knew, like his job as my intern was to come in and say, Good job, Jenna. Thank you. And then I would just continue on my day right?
00:13:26:23 – 00:13:46:03 Speaker 1 So I don’t know if it was just yeah, I certainly didn’t have the words to be able to say, You know, what would be really useful for me is constant feedback. But I was getting those. You get those things so naturally in school, you know, you get a letter grade, you win the election, you win the competition, right?
00:13:46:03 – 00:14:11:21 Speaker 1 So those are things and you know, and it becomes like a really big dopamine hit, you know, And if you can just continue to strive and get there and in the back of your mind, if you’re not conscious of it yet, but thinking, gosh, I just don’t know if I fit in and I wonder if there’s something about me that’s wrong because not only do I not look like anybody else, I don’t act like anyone else in my family because this is no fault, no blame.
00:14:11:21 – 00:14:34:08 Speaker 1 You just I’ve met my husband is nothing like his brothers or his parents. You know, it has nothing to do with that. It But when there’s the added layer of you also don’t look like anyone else anywhere. I think there was something I was internalizing about myself. You know, I’m outgoing. I’m a little bit artsy. I am. I don’t look like anyone else.
00:14:34:10 – 00:14:47:20 Speaker 1 I know that I’m loved, but I still feel a need to distinguish myself in some way, even though every day I’m going out into the world and looking different. But yet I’m not really acknowledging that part of myself.
00:14:47:22 – 00:14:48:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.
00:14:48:18 – 00:15:09:08 Speaker 1 So there’s there’s just so much confusion there in the way, you know? And so that impacts everything. So that’s why I say I am very, very grateful for the people who were seeing things in me that I just was not equipped to see in myself yet. And that is so interesting. Yeah. Having to prove myself. And yet people were saying, Look, you can do this.
00:15:09:10 – 00:15:38:14 Speaker 2 So I first started seeing my current therapist about a little over three years ago, and I think she kind of has this way of saying, you know, she doesn’t like to pathologize, she doesn’t like to give labels. And so it’s it’s through these sort of like conversations that I have with her that I’m bringing these diagnoses to her and she’s kind of sort of confirming them right.And so for at least the first two years, I didn’t realize what we were working on. And there was a point at which I was like, I think I’m healed. And two more sessions, right? Two more sessions, and then we’ll be finished forever. I know everything about myself. Got it. Fantastic. So I had that moment with my therapist and she kind of was like, Hold on, you know, bring me back in. And she was like, Let’s still look at all of the different areas in your life where perfectionism is actually making a negative impact. Right? And that was before we, you know, realized, oh, these like digest digestion issues that I’ve been having. Oh, that’s definitely perfectionism. And that compulsion that you have to eat a certain way. Yeah, we would call that an eating disorder. But you know what the root cause of that is your perfectionism, right? This, you know, issue that you have about feeling like you’re not a good mother. Let’s take a look at that. Yep, that’s perfectionism. And so, you know, as we started to peel back the layers, I was like, oh, and she’s like every issue that I have that is either manifesting mentally, emotionally, spiritually, or even physically has a root cause of perfectionism
and something that my Eastern medicine doctor recently told me was that so I have hypothyroidism.
00:17:24:21 – 00:18:08:04 Speaker 2 And she said that one of the types of hypothyroidism are the types are the people who will do so much for everybody else, but rarely does something for themselves or, you know, puts themselves last. And, you know, I was starting to untie all of these like issues that I was suffering from and manifesting in really bad ways. I was realizing, oh, I’m meeting everybody else’s expectations, but I haven’t even figured out what I want to do with my life.
00:18:08:06 – 00:18:39:16 Speaker 2 And then at some point, I was starting to like, get back into writing and, you know, working on a series and I was really sort of doing that on the side, but I was like, Oh, maybe I should turn this into something. And then I was like, Oh, maybe I should start a business too. And, you know, like I had all these ideas bubbling and I was like, Oh, maybe I should actually use this time wisely and make all of these things happen.
00:18:39:18 – 00:19:19:01 Speaker 2 But I didn’t value my dreams enough to actually manifest them to the point to the threshold needed to get the work done. Like, you know, if a boss was like, Hey, right, you need to do this or you need to put this curriculum together, no problem. I can do that in two weeks. But for some reason, when it was my dreams and my projects and the things that I wanted to leave behind before I leave the earth, I was like, It’s not worth it.
00:19:19:03 – 00:19:24:23 Speaker 2 You know, this is not important enough. And so I can relate well.
00:19:25:00 – 00:19:53:13 Speaker 1 To things is does that go back to everyone needs before mind and or self worth of this project? Probably not even that good. So why would I complete it? Third, it’s very easy when you’re wired to be or if for whatever reason, people pleaser and perfectionist. Because when a boss says, Can you do this, then there’s all kinds of great endorphins that come from, I did it.
00:19:53:16 – 00:20:12:23 Speaker 1 It’s great. I got feedback. A-plus, fantastic achievement, you know, box checked. And when it’s free yourself and you have to hold your self accountable for those things and you’re not getting external feedback to say good job. I think there’s a lot wrapped up in that as well.
00:20:13:01 – 00:20:18:19 Speaker 2 Oh my gosh. All three things, Janet, like you nailed them, like Target.
00:20:18:19 – 00:20:40:01 Speaker 1 And so forth. And we haven’t touched on this and we’ll need a whole nother episode in order to do that. But there is something and I’d be curious what you think. I know that part of my continuing focus a lot and I need to prove myself to myself that. The other thing is if I stay busy enough, then I don’t have to think about X, Y, or Z.
00:20:40:01 – 00:21:02:21 Speaker 1 I don’t have to think about the fact that I have these floating birth parents out there that I’ve never given any. Mind you, I don’t have to think about the fact that whatever it happens to be when if we keep busy enough. So I think there are many, many things at play here. And the most difficult question is what will make you happy?
00:21:02:21 – 00:21:34:21 Speaker 1 What do you want? And the fact that that is a difficult question says something. I think about those few things at play. I think this is not academic. This is just my observation. I think when you have a film of society and expectations placed over top of yourself and then your own personal life experiences and story and the things that you’re in, every interaction you’ve had and the relationships that have taught you to act one way or another.
00:21:34:23 – 00:21:58:22 Speaker 1 And, and, and and we’re not thinking about any of those things. You’re just trying to live your life and so when the thread, as you’re saying, starts to unravel, I always talk about the dominoes starting to fall, like first domino falls in your brain and get ready. It’s just keeps going. There’s always something sort of simmering underneath the surface.
00:21:59:00 – 00:22:40:12 Speaker 1 I could be doing something more or that’s not good enough. Or I did that thing. I checked the box. But what’s next? And I do think some of that is I think some of it is trauma. A little T related from having six at least six separations before I was a year old and then having to, you know, like what we talked about before growing up and being a young adult and not understanding all the things that and I would say I’m not close to understanding everything, but I have been able to at least give myself the grace to wake up and not feel bad.
00:22:40:14 – 00:23:03:23 Speaker 1 I, I did reach a point in therapy where I did write a note for myself. Jenna, you no longer have to prove yourself to you any more, which I think I can say that out loud. I think I’m starting to believe it. I think if you asked any of my friends or anyone close to me, they would say, Of course, just like I would say to them.
00:23:04:01 – 00:23:30:22 Speaker 1 But really embracing it and and having it be a core of myself to live with integrity and to make sure that I’m living in the present and really feeling what I’m feeling and not pushing anything away, telling the people close to me my truth. You trying to live my most authentic life for my kids so they can be most patient and show up for them.
00:23:31:00 – 00:23:47:01 Speaker 1 I think in some ways it adds a lot of pressure, but in other ways, maybe it takes a little bit of pressure off. You know, this journey continues. We’re doing the best we can every day. We don’t have to solve it. All right. Now, a girlfriend, a really good friend of mine, always, always tells me that maybe she heard it from her therapist.
00:23:47:03 – 00:23:54:10 Speaker 1 We don’t have to solve it all right now. And I think little nuggets like this are so useful.
00:23:54:12 – 00:24:35:08 Speaker 2 So a little while back or several in several of her posts, Nikki, either often or out of ten, she has shared a book that has been really helpful in her healing journey called Running on Empty by Dr. Jonice Webb and I. I finally listened to it like several weeks ago and it was really revelatory. Is that a word or is.
00:24:35:10 – 00:24:36:00 Speaker 1 It just now?
00:24:36:03 – 00:25:11:13 Speaker 2 Yes, it was really good. And, you know, in the first section, the author talks about, I think, 12 different ways that we that children could have been emotionally neglected by their parents and she basically at the start is like, you know, read through all of them because you might think that, you know, you’re you fall in the first few, but it might be that there’s like a blend of some of these.
00:25:11:15 – 00:25:44:22 Speaker 2 And as I was listening to it, I was realizing that, you know, so I was raised by my single immigrant mom. And I didn’t I, you know, I’d never I hadn’t met my birth father until I was an adult, basically. And and she did really the best that she could. And she loved me. And I cannot fault her for anything that she gave me because she sacrificed everything to give me the life that I had. And I love her dearly, even though sometimes it might not look like at that. But I was thinking about how because she didn’t have the time to and the attention that she could give me, like some of my peers who had both their parents. And so what my mother did was, you know, she outsourced a lot of the attention and time to like daycare, afterschool programs, other extracurricular activities or, you know, family members.I remember seeing with a lot of my family members and being bounced around from, you know, like my cousins and aunts and uncles. And I loved that. And I loved my grandparents and I loved all of those experiences. But I feel like I didn’t just have one parent, you know, I had this village and they were all sort of like piece mealing, like the attention that they could give me, right? Because they had children. They had other things that were going on. And, you know, I realized through reading or listening to this book that because I had so many parents, I wasn’t really getting the validation or the attention or the love that I felt like I needed to validate that my emotions were okay to feel. I always felt like I had to minimize my own needs, to make sure that I wasn’t inconveniencing everybody else.
00:27:32:03 – 00:27:59:21 Speaker 2 And after reading or again, listening to the book, I was like, Oh my goodness, this makes a lot of sense for me as to where all this perfectionism is coming from, where all of this, like needing to prove myself is coming from where, you know, like my self-worth is constantly being questioned because I hadn’t had that time in my youth to have my emotional needs met and validated.
00:27:59:23 – 00:28:36:07 Speaker 2 And I’m wondering, like, is there a way to build that in to our own like, mental systems? But I’m wondering how do we sort of build that validation within us so that we don’t need to get it from the outside? And I’m not saying that getting it from outside isn’t healthy, because I think it absolutely is. It’s it’s, you know, social health.
00:28:36:09 – 00:29:09:22 Speaker 2 Health is really when you’re able to connect socially with other people. Right. If we’re looking at like the poly vagal ladder at the very top of it is social connection, right? And so being able to socialize and have these positive social interactions are very, incredibly healthy. But how do we also build it into our inside so that when we have a lack from the outside, that we’re not, you know, dominos falling everywhere like you were talking.
00:29:09:22 – 00:29:48:07 Speaker 1 I think this comes full circle to the very first words out of our mouth an hour and a half ago, which is how do we take the things that the people who we know love us the most see us as and internalize it for ourselves? I don’t know what the answer is or how we do that, but, you know, sometimes I’ll be venting or my girlfriend will be venting and we have to stop and say, Don’t say that about my friend, you know, don’t you know?
00:29:48:07 – 00:30:14:07 Speaker 1 Because we’re talking about ourselves. Well, I can’t believe I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we’re very quick to say those things and reflect back to the person who we care about. And so how do you be in the present and be aware of yourself physiologically, which five years ago I would have said, Oh, that’s crap. Like, Oh yeah, I’m tired, but you can just push through, you know, that’s the American way.
00:30:14:07 – 00:30:37:23 Speaker 1 Just push through, you know, ignore all that again, you know, one of the other many layers and control internally the different, you know, the movie in and out, the different parts of ourselves that are trying to protect us because they are enacted whenever there’s a crisis or conflict. And they think they’re right and they want to help you write the different parts of ourselves that want to help us.
00:30:37:23 – 00:31:03:03 Speaker 1 You know, especially when we’re tired or especially when we’re, you know, in a moment of feeling like we don’t have the ability to say what we really need to say, how do we stop and just take control of our our present selves to be our most authentic selves in the moment? And I don’t know if anyone ever achieves that, but I think that for me that is the goal.
00:31:03:05 – 00:31:21:01 Speaker 1 Much easier said than done, but I think each of this is on a journey to really get there. I don’t know that you would ever talk to anyone who would say that that’s not the goal, but it’s just a matter of if somebody is in a place of recognizing it for themselves. And I wish it were just one thing.
00:31:21:01 – 00:31:44:11 Speaker 1 Then as we have unpacked over the course of our conversation here, it’s so many things interwoven, interconnected ones impacting the other one. One showed up in our life at a different time. We’re probably not even thinking about the whatever trauma that happened in college that we forgot and blocked out of our minds that will emerge a year from now.
00:31:44:11 – 00:32:09:00 Speaker 1 Just when we thought we had it all together, you know. So there’s a lot happening. But I think the first part of it is awareness. The second part of being honest with ourselves and the third part is realizing this journey is just never going to end in in a good way. It’s an opportunity. And I don’t mean like toxic positivity, right?
00:32:09:02 – 00:32:39:15 Speaker 1 So I want to sit in the hole with anybody who just needs to have someone sit in the hall with them and validate that something feels really bad or, you know, I’m having a bad day. It doesn’t need to be, well, you know, pull yourself up. I think there is a lot of forgiveness involved. There’s a lot of giving ourselves a lot of giving ourselves a break and surrounding ourselves with people who are going to understand the journey that we’re on and help give us what we need, especially if we’re telling them directly what we need and all of those things.
00:32:39:15 – 00:32:45:02 Speaker 1 Can anyone achieve all of those things? Right? I don’t know. I just don’t know. Yeah.