Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Maaike—a visual dialogue maker, mediator, social worker, and mom—about her earliest memories of being a student. We talk about the educational philosophy of her parents and teachers, how they encouraged play and exploration throughout her education journey, and how her experience informed her own journey with educating her children. We also talk about the point at which she burnt out, and how a chance opportunity led to the career of her dreams.
Here is our slightly edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of my name––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:17 – 00:00:30:01 Unknown Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed as a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned in the decades following. I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:30:03 – 00:01:03:11 Unknown I design curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems, to rethink what schools can be, what it should be.
00:01:03:12 – 00:01:37:12 Unknown When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Micah, a visual dialog maker, mediator, social worker and mom about her earliest memories of being a student. We talk about the educational philosophy of her parents and teachers, how they encouraged, play and explore Asian throughout her education journey, and how her experience informed her own journey with educating her children.
00:01:37:14 – 00:02:13:09 Unknown We also talk about the point at which she burnt out and how a chance opportunity led to the career of her dreams. Here is our slightly edited conversation. First of all, I always say I always loved learning and I was always very eager and I grew up in a grew up in the seventies where in my country, like in then it was like a bit hippie dippy, experimenting with new types of education, new types of living together.
00:02:13:11 – 00:02:43:12 Unknown I lived in a very small, small village, so a thousand people, maybe 1500 people left them and my main one, when I was really young, my main learning was really bad, like being eager to learn to experiment with new things and being allowed to play. And I think my parents, they were really like both very practical hands on people who really love to create new things and build things.
00:02:43:17 – 00:03:21:16 Unknown So they they used building their own homes, making their own bread and doing things by hand, but also essential. My dad was working at university as a physical assistant in physics at the university classrooms. I don’t know the English word for it, but because I was like in this very small village, I had a very small class. So my primary school, years from age 6 to 12, I was in a class with seven children, which is like really small, and because there was only one teacher available.
00:03:21:16 – 00:03:57:07 Unknown So they combined three classes. So the children are three levels of class. They were sit together. So and I was always top rank of the class. And this was really easy because I was just very eager to learn things. So I was always very quickly done with things. And also it was not always easy to find connection with my peers and I just loved reading them and reading books or telling stories or synthesizing about many things in the world, or asking all these questions like, Where do people come from?
00:03:57:07 – 00:04:29:12 Unknown How is universe and what’s behind universe? All these kinds of questions and my peers, really, they would love those questions. They didn’t have all the answers. But I love these questions. And some of my friends that parents were also academic said they would like answering those questions. But also a big majority of the kids of my school, they came from science backgrounds or similar type lives like people who were laborers working in factories and those kinds of backgrounds, and they didn’t have all these questions.
00:04:29:12 – 00:05:00:03 Unknown So at secondary primary school, my main focus was just like Happy Bunny to learn loads of things on my own and finding less peer connection in the learning side. But we did loads of playful things, so we played along and while playing we learned. My parents always said like a good teacher is someone who sparks You’re in a spark and you’re in a wanting to know things.
00:05:00:03 – 00:05:26:09 Unknown And the role of the teacher is to make sure that you stay eager to learn more. And even though it is, learning can be challenging and you need to put effort in it. But as long as you do the best of yourself, that’s what we strive for. So you don’t have to become a lawyer or a doctor if you don’t want to.
00:05:26:11 – 00:05:49:07 Unknown If you do want to do it, you know you need to work for it. But you’re okay to where you are in secondary school and then suddenly I had like this click with my first real best girlfriend, like my real bestie, because she was really into reading books use like having all this fancy talks names. I had suddenly had like this connecting with someone.
00:05:49:13 – 00:06:30:19 Unknown And she was really smart and, and there was lots of other kids. But like, suddenly I felt like the how it is when you’ve got someone who understands you on a deeper level and also academically and. Well, she’s been my bestie, I think, almost to the last part of the secondary school. But I always loved learning. And my secondary school there was well, I would say it was really like hippie dippy secondary school, like being creative was celebrated and also I was still like, do not do higher education.
00:06:30:19 – 00:06:59:13 Unknown So the highest level of like preparing you for an academic career, that was the level I was on and I was learning and I like good grades, but my teachers, we were allowed or not allowed. We had to address our teacher with their first names, so we would just say young or sons or whatever. So, so not their last name, but the first names and where they were really into like we have to do this learning together.
00:06:59:13 – 00:07:21:01 Unknown We have to inspire you. I remember one of my Dutch teachers, he suddenly one day came into the classroom wearing like a t shirt where there was like a poem written on the t shirt and said like, come close to me. Just read a poem that’s on my chest. And then it was like a medieval poem. And then we had to all figure out what was this all about?
00:07:21:01 – 00:07:52:15 Unknown And those kind of lessons. And I remember like we had, like this poetry Week where we had to describe as teenagers what we’re our inner feelings and how to turn them into a poem. And they were actually published in our school. I remember like all these opportunities to one week we were allowed to replace our local government as students from all secondary schools.
00:07:52:16 – 00:08:17:07 Unknown We were like, We could be voted into Douglas, this local government, and we were given budgets and at that time we were asked the questions from a young people person’s perspective, How can we address pollution and what would be the best solution that you can think of? And also, we had to divide ourselves into some kind of political parties and to have discussion with each other.
00:08:17:07 – 00:08:52:22 Unknown And I was in the journalist group, so we had to like do like small broadcasts of the different parties. And so there was like always learning, connecting with doing, thinking, like project based as school. So that was like I think the essence of my secondary school. At the same time, I wanted to do the exam subject, drawing and art history, but my school had two little amount of students due to do that.
00:08:52:22 – 00:09:24:03 Unknown So then we were hooked up with another school gymnasium next to our school, like really high class, very intelligent children. And we had this combined class and it was the first time I experienced the difference in how schools approach learning, because in my school we learned if you want to draw, the teacher tells you story, plays music, and you’re asked to to draw out or to to work out from what you experience and to put into a certain type of format.
00:09:24:03 – 00:10:02:07 Unknown So it was very creative, is not always very good, but very creative and connected to your inner feelings. And the other school they had learned how to draw by rules like these are the perspective rules. These are the rules if you want to draw an apple, these are for shadowing. And in our exam year, we got the teacher was a teacher from the other school and he was like, say you need to draw this apple and me and my class like how we don’t know this So and and then when when the other class they got lessons from my teacher they said what about creativity?
00:10:02:13 – 00:10:26:14 Unknown Just tell us how we should do it. So that was the first we had like this clash of learning, different learning styles. And I think it should be somewhere in the middle because I think it’s good to have said instead of rules. If you want to learn how to play the violin, you need to understand the instrument. You need to have some basic grasp of tones and rhythms, and then you can play with it.
00:10:26:14 – 00:10:46:14 Unknown So just say like, here’s a violin play with it is maybe not the best way of learning how to play violin. So. So I think these are both. And and then of course, there was this whole thing like, what will I do after secondary school? Yeah, that’s what it’s all about. Yeah, I was, I was by the time I was 18.
00:10:46:16 – 00:11:13:01 Unknown And since I’ve been young kids, I always want to be an a world explorer. I always wanted to travel around the world. So I saw like, let’s become anthropologists, because I think that as a pathologist really travels around the world, gets to know the coaches. And then I looked into like, what them would be like on the university program and was like, It’s just looking at people.
00:11:13:01 – 00:11:31:15 Unknown It’s not doing anything with people, it’s just looking at them. That’s just not I would do something with people and waste my creativity. And then one of the deans for my secondary school, he said, like maybe you need to switch your future image, but you wouldn’t be because you want to be creative. You’re very good just being creative and you went to people.
00:11:31:15 – 00:11:55:16 Unknown So maybe you don’t need to go to the university, but go to the higher vocational education. So in my country you’ve got like this. It’s not academic, but it’s like it’s apply applied science, we call it nowadays. And so I went there and I did this first visit and it was like an old monastery with one half of the building where monks still living there.
00:11:55:22 – 00:12:24:11 Unknown And the other side of the building there were like people making music. See, it’s helping people with psychiatric diseases to better that that so by using creativity. So I choose to get to do that that then however I really missed the highest level of being challenged also on a brain level, on a on a rational level, we had loads of reflection in the works and was was really good and I’ve learned a lot from it.
00:12:24:11 – 00:12:58:17 Unknown But I also I had this hunger for a theory. So the day I finished my occasional education, the day after that, I just started with a master of comparative European social studies. wow. Which is like an EU based and research on the social level comparing and which meant like classes from 9 to 6 and then from seven till nine in the evening, like and like seven days a week and then seven days of testing.
00:12:58:17 – 00:13:21:20 Unknown So it was really like and we had to live that internally. And so it’s really like high pressure loads of books, loads of reading, those of high level discussions. I thought, yeah, I really love this. All of this, this knowledge. And, and then when I finished it, I graduated. I also like a graduation and I thought, okay, so now what?
00:13:21:20 – 00:13:54:18 Unknown And with this education I could become I was able to take part in a computer of the EU Institute which, and which would mean that you would become the assistance of a European Parliament member and Concor is like a former set of four days of applying for a job. So the first day you tested on your general knowledge, the second day tests on your theoretical knowledge, those kind of things.
00:13:54:23 – 00:14:20:16 Unknown And the third day they gave me this big pile of papers and I had within 4 hours I had to write a speech, a so-called speech for the Europe parliamentarian to speak out. And the speech would have to be within 3 minutes. Wow. I have to look, I just I have to write. I just don’t know where to start.
00:14:20:16 – 00:14:42:06 Unknown And suddenly all my frustration about, like, writing is not my forte as and it’s like even like in my in my master thesis Ms. dissertation, I also struggle with writing, but I had loads of people who could like help me out. My husband’s very good at writing and so they would like cover up my lack of ability in this sense.
00:14:42:07 – 00:15:14:14 Unknown And so I was on my own, like having to force myself for all these documents and then making sense out of it and then bring it into speech of 3 minutes. And I felt like I actually failed. I just failed to create like a good, lively speech and my brain just got blocked and not because I didn’t know what I wanted to say, what the knowledge was about, but because writing it down in a structured way for the other two to follow me and and maybe even a bit humorous, I just couldn’t do it.
00:15:14:14 – 00:15:38:07 Unknown I just I just felt like there was just send in my engine. It was like I was just like, like. So it’s like I call this up, maybe do what I need to do. So I’m not really like a policymaker, I’m not this. So then I went back to what I was trained for. So first I worked in women’s aid refuges, then it was a project leader, staff members.
00:15:38:07 – 00:16:06:11 Unknown I did all these things in the first domestic violence area because I been trained and that’s later I was transferring to social work. So as being a project manager and later on becoming the manager of everything in Old Town connecting like all my like all my team, my team members, but also connected to them negotiation with the policymakers and with the local government.
00:16:06:13 – 00:16:25:08 Unknown And even in that job, which is like a really high demanding job all the time I had to write, I just felt like, it’s just I just it’s I just felt it’s not my natural way of writing and my my natural ways. Do I just I’ve got all these ideas and things in my head. I see what’s what needs to be done.
00:16:25:14 – 00:16:45:12 Unknown I see connection, but I can’t put it down on paper. So after quite a long career, then I suddenly felt like I need to do something else. I don’t know what, but I’ve got three kids at home and I’ve done all the things I could do in my in my job. I’ve developed up to the max, but it’s just a limit.
00:16:45:12 – 00:17:13:15 Unknown And so I was able to step out of that job. So I quit my job and it was I got some support to, to like to have some extra coaching from my former boss boss. And in that time, like, what do I want to do? I started being an introvert and during that moment I was able to take part in a little training, training about visual communication.
00:17:13:19 – 00:17:35:19 Unknown A friend of me said like, we’ve organized this training for the first time in the Netherlands. You want to take part in it because someone dropped off the group and it’s a unique opportunity for you. So like, yeah, cool. And the moment I wasn’t in this training room, I think all puzzle pieces felt connected. All puzzle pieces.
00:17:35:19 – 00:18:00:06 Unknown Just like they suddenly made sense. Because my brain works in this way. I can really see things, but my way of expressing how connections are made is not, in a word, in a verbal way, but in a visual way. And this training, this Chicago training gave me the opportunity. It gave me actually the language, the visual language of how to address the things I’m seeing.
00:18:00:07 – 00:18:26:19 Unknown And that’s like I’ve always been drawing, but I’ve always been drawing, thinking it, drawing, being an art type. As suddenly I learned that drawing can also be used as a way of communicating your ideas or your story. So I suddenly it just made sense. It was just so easy to express what I was seeing or thinking or reflecting upon.
00:18:26:21 – 00:18:54:07 Unknown And my way of doing. It was like at some sometimes still writing some words, but often using it with visuals. So I could say like our connections or connections are missing or what’s happening on this piece. And then I just use this visualization visual stories in my then day to day work as a project leader on a temping base and as an interim manager, and then also like, I just want to do only visual work.
00:18:54:07 – 00:19:17:12 Unknown I don’t want to just do like a side job of part of the job. I want to do it only. And at that time I got the opportunity to become a Chicago trainee myself. So I was able to become one of the first global trainers from Piccolo and head flight trainers And now part since 2000, 18 of this happy family has become trainers.
00:19:17:14 – 00:19:48:21 Unknown And we do like like so I do basic trainings, advanced trainings, and this is storytelling, training and some other specializations. And I also help organizations, some of academics to unravel all their complicated issues and acuity and to unravel some academic models which are still like a bit vague. It can also be like when there is a project not going well, that we’re going to analyze it visually.
00:19:48:21 – 00:20:21:02 Unknown What’s what’s what’s why are things not going the way we hope they want to go? And you’ve got like this whole system built us connecting connection with my knowledge of foreknowledge, of how to manage projects, how to, to dress things with teams, how to be a leader combined with visuals to make to create insights. And it’s not because I think like, this is the insight, but often I just write down the source that people express in the room.
00:20:21:03 – 00:20:46:00 Unknown I just write and draw them out a thing. What suddenly happens? Are they that people can look at their own thoughts, but also the other one in a group can also look at thoughts of the other person. And if you show many thoughts, you can look at all these different thoughts together. But also you can then see where are connections, what where is the overlap or where are things on a different level?
00:20:46:02 – 00:21:10:08 Unknown And also my role is also being a trained mediator. I also ask lots of questions which the group doesn’t ask themselves anymore. And it’s not just us in question. Is it also like holding the space in a safe way so that we can really, in a safe way, explore it and say, this sounds really harsh, but it sounds like it’s really heavy material, but sometimes it sometimes is.
00:21:10:13 – 00:21:39:09 Unknown It’s just very light. And it can also be like very simple things like so we’ve we’ve got this process of, let’s say, process within social work. What’s the first step from the moment that a client picks up the phone and gives us a code towards the last part of guidance? What’s different steps between what needs to be edited like documents or this kind of things?
00:21:39:11 – 00:22:18:04 Unknown And sometimes it’s also the visual language and language and where people can understand each other and a few years ago I facilitated in a visual way, this company. It was a technical company, and there was this group working on a project of a it was called a mechanical arm to make sure that goods from a moving boat could be dropped on a disabled a ship, a windmill in sea.
00:22:20:00 – 00:22:58:18 Unknown which means so you have to deal with like an immobile mobile element, like the ship that’s just dancing in the waves and a steady element of the. And they had like this this they that designed with went from a ship like on the shore of the windmill and it’s so technical but the thing about that was that the project team consisted of people from different backgrounds and what they discovered that for the same for this whole technical arm, for different elements of arm, they apparently use different words for the same part of the object.
00:22:58:19 – 00:23:21:10 Unknown So one group would say before for ARM and there would be like a upmost cut out of part of the arm rest. The other side would let it fall from where it would like bent in the middle. so. And suddenly when we were drawing, as is some of the it made sense I know as you talk about this, so you had to draw and there was not a technical draw.
00:23:21:10 – 00:23:40:15 Unknown It was just like a very rough sketch of like how this is like what the basic elements of this arm and would be called is different parts. I was like, because me being absolute layman on this technical part, I would ask all these silly questions like, I now record this. and then someone asked and someone else of the group, no, this is our house code.
00:23:40:15 – 00:24:06:06 Unknown And suddenly we discovered like these things and also in this group there was also things about the trust issue. And if I allow you to take the credits, we also give some credits to me. And how do we deal with. Well, it was very funny. Like we one moment we had like this was a group meeting and one of them there were not enough chairs.
00:24:06:06 – 00:24:25:12 Unknown And so my automatic reaction like, let’s just let’s get some chairs from other rooms and and a few people said that the others did just a bit too like, let’s just stand set. So there was like this culture of like this is what is really how you want you to collaborate. So what would happen if so some people are standing, others are sitting.
00:24:25:12 – 00:24:58:20 Unknown What happens in like that that the dynamics in the group. So then using the visualization often to address these kinds of issues which support collaboration between group members. Yeah. So that’s like in a very long way. My story was more question you well, technically it was like five different questions and I think you did a really great job of connecting them all and also creating this wonderful tree of like a start point and an end point.
00:24:58:20 – 00:25:30:05 Unknown So very well. Lovely, lovely explanation, very thorough. Yeah. And there was one thing, as someone said, like, is that the love of learning I still has and that’s just I’ve never been let down for, for learning. And I know it’s hard work. So you know last year saw to learn Korean but now I switched to back to a switch that to Chinese because I want to travel more to China and Korea but and it’s really hard work but I just I just love it.
00:25:30:05 – 00:25:52:12 Unknown I just love it when I suddenly recognize the character in this whole Mango six. I don’t know. And I think I’m very optimistic because I think I very much believe in the positivity and seeing what is that already? What can you do already instead of doing what’s absent now? I think that’s also like us an education system. People are looking at what’s not there.
00:25:52:12 – 00:26:23:21 Unknown Yes, you’re being punished, but the things you don’t know, you’re not rewarded by the things you do know or the things you can do, the things that you can do, but are not in the formal curriculum. Yeah, and that’s something that I wanted to follow up with you about, actually, because I think there was a point at which you talked about this other school, the gymnasium that was close to your school, and and you referenced the students there as highly intelligent and they did things well.
00:26:23:23 – 00:26:55:18 Unknown And that was sort of like a culture shock to you because, you know, your school was more about expression and drawing out what was inside the child, you know, being a tuned child. Whereas this other, you know, school of thought was, you know, we’re going to teach you rules and like existing systems and theories of, you know, the world and how that was kind of, you know, a point of friction for you.
00:26:55:19 – 00:27:30:16 Unknown And, you know, that was really interesting to me because you started using language that was kind of comparative, right? Like highly intelligent or do things well. And I really wanted to hear more about what you think and maybe particularly like once you became a parent or, you know, after your your studies were completed or, you know, maybe the evolution of your philosophy around this.
00:27:30:18 – 00:27:57:22 Unknown But and you said, like, you know, that there should be some kind of balance of, you know, a tuning to the child’s needs, but also teaching them rules and theory and things that already exist in the world. And, you know, knowing full well that we can’t be a child forever and that at some point we have to grow up and become a contributing member of society.
00:27:57:22 – 00:28:42:15 Unknown Right. And so knowing all of these constraints of, you know, education, like your your parents said, should be about making children curious and then your thought of there should be a balance of people teaching you theory and rules and how do we do that and also connect to this, this, you know, the capitalistic societies of the economy and, you know, finding a job that you can contribute to or finding a place in society, that you can be a contributing member of society.
00:28:42:15 – 00:29:40:04 Unknown So how do you resolve those differences and what do you think would be a great, like, happy medium? Yeah, you’re asking many, many, many questions. Again, I’m so sorry. And I do this. My brain is just thinking like, where do I want what would I want to say first? Because this is my problem I like. What I’m curious about isn’t like one singular question, you know, but, you know, questions that are just things like I was meanwhile, I was trying to to write down a bit a few of these I went to to pick on to and, but I probably have like I’ve missed some parts so where to start?
00:29:40:06 – 00:30:10:12 Unknown First of all, I do think it is helpful for children, also for teenagers to have some basic racism framework where they can and so way in which they can at least know where to hold, what types of knowledge or experiences. So it is good that you learn how to read and write and there are certain rules in every language of how you should read your rights.
00:30:10:14 – 00:30:33:18 Unknown Why is it good? Because it gives you a vehicle to to express yourselves. And at same time, I think it’s also like you need to have language and whether it’s like a verbal language or a visual language, you need to have some kind of language to address yourself. I don’t think like although we say like the tabula rasa.
00:30:33:18 – 00:31:03:21 Unknown So like, like they’re like, like a white sheet of paper, but I’m not sure that that’s true. Even some people say like, but they’ve also got a gene. So I don’t know about that. But I do know is that I’ve got three different children from the same man. I know that for sure. They all look similar. They’re all blond because we’re both blond, but they are very different.
00:31:03:23 – 00:31:30:01 Unknown And seeing their differences even from the moment they were born. Also, sparks something in the thinking, like maybe not everything people are is just due to their upbringing, but it’s also about like things that are inside them which can flourish or not will not flourish depending on on the strands that they are in. So I’m a believer in that kind of thing.
00:31:30:03 – 00:32:02:18 Unknown If you think that that’s that sense also, and learning is about like helping you to flourish what’s inside you and you need to learn some things to express yourself, but also you need to have a space to explore within safe boundaries. I’ve had a very well my my eldest son, he’s we had we have had quite some struggles with him, to say the least.
00:32:02:18 – 00:32:28:04 Unknown We can say he was always like a very let’s say he had loads and loads of energy, some people said like he has ADHD. It was like, No, he is just business, edgy. We need to find a certain way to analyze his energy. So when we would have like a day of school, I would just go crazy if he would just be at home because he was just jumping on things.
00:32:28:04 – 00:32:50:22 Unknown So the best thing we could do just go outside with him, do lots of running or dig. I remember like one day in a very cold, cold, cold November day and he was like having a day off of school. And we just went outside to the river in the rain, snow, coldness, and we just dug hole near to the riverside wearing like our warm clothing.
00:32:51:00 – 00:33:13:15 Unknown And I brought some hot chocolate with us and this kid is absolutely happy because he needs kind of loses his energy. So those kind of things. But it was for him a struggle to sit down and patiently. So he when we were sitting on a table, he always had like one foot in the ground, like he was able to start to to take off as soon as it were finished.
00:33:13:17 – 00:33:45:17 Unknown When we were sitting on my lap, when we were reading in stories, he always was wiggling. And so the same thing was happening when he was at school, except for the moment when a teacher sparked something in him and he’s like, that’s really that’s all we want to know more about that. So that was really and while we had like loads of research also like us, because at the end we did discover there were some things that were getting less easy within them with the other kids.
00:33:45:19 – 00:34:08:16 Unknown And he got many labels. I don’t really care about labels that people are pronouncing, people, which is want to know what’s the menu for this kid? What does this kid need to know? And we found that this kid needs to has a predictable structure in a certain way, but he also needs to be allowed to explore and to wiggle.
00:34:08:18 – 00:34:37:23 Unknown So primary school was okay for him, but secondary school was hell. First secondary school you went to there were extremely strict, extreme, predictable. But every time when he made a mistake, they would just punishing him and the things and says not not like physical punishments. For instance, where you’re 12 years old and you go to secondary school, you’re expected to pack your own and to take with you the correct books and workbooks to the school.
00:34:38:00 – 00:35:06:04 Unknown In his case, I think 50%, 60 times, 60% of the time he had the correct books with him. Awesome. He was just not able and with some very strict support from all sides and helping is he was able to do it up to the level of 90% of all those books. We were just so proud of him because he meant it took him lots and lots of effort, something that was very easy for you, me, to the effort to do it.
00:35:06:06 – 00:35:26:04 Unknown But then the school said yes, but he had a 10% also needs to be in order. So we said like this school will never see this child. In a way he he is. And that’s just they’re just aiming for something that just focusing on what’s not there and not focusing on what is that what he can do. So we changed schools with him.
00:35:26:04 – 00:35:59:02 Unknown He went to school where sports was like main. That was the main thing. And also combining the smallest school, lots of outdoor activities, lots of learning and a very structured ways to small groups. And first he loved it. There, but then they decided to change them. The system where they went from class instructions, predictable class structures into peer group learning, which means that you have to learn with Europeans.
00:35:59:02 – 00:36:24:16 Unknown You get like this, this problem you have to solve. And that was just for him. It was just like, okay, because he had to. You didn’t have any internal structure of self. He was just like being taken from, we can do this or we can do this. So is Spanish control. This is focus was very limited. So he’s just like this plan was hell for him because there was no one.
00:36:24:16 – 00:36:46:12 Unknown He was offered a structure here to discover for himself with his other peers. And it just he didn’t have the stability in his self to structure himself in such a way that he was able to actually come to the learning. He was just like he just got lost, just lost and all that. Like you need to find out like, what is the real question behind this problem?
00:36:46:14 – 00:37:11:20 Unknown He’s like, I don’t know. And so there was just too little structure for him. I’m curious about this part. So do you mean that when they changed the system and they went to peer learning, do you mean that there was a lot less, I guess, interference or interaction from the teachers? And it was more he had to learn with his peers and figure things out.
00:37:11:22 – 00:37:41:01 Unknown And he didn’t have like maybe the initiative or the internal or like mental models to help him steer himself in a collaborative environment. Is that what you mean? Yes, it was a thing he said. So what we do, what we discuss of all these tests he’s got like, so you’ve got like your IQ based on like good verbal IQ, which is really high within which like, like something that you could just like he speaks really eloquently and all this kind of things.
00:37:41:03 – 00:38:10:09 Unknown But then the performer IQ, I don’t know what that’s an English name but as as everything to do with being able to see structures to see like what from a comes to be able to see all these things it’s about opening. It’s also about like seeing what’s priority or worse, just like so he was not able to to abstract like, like what’s essence of this and where do I need to focus on and what’s just like a detail.
00:38:10:11 – 00:38:33:04 Unknown So he was he was just getting lost in the enormity as inputs, Sure. But as often kids are able just to see, okay, this is like a base structure. He just didn’t have it. He didn’t have it doesn’t he doesn’t have like this base structure. And and so so he just got lost in this group of people who may have seen for himself with the base structure, but he just couldn’t find it.
00:38:33:07 – 00:38:56:21 Unknown Yeah, that’s very sad. Together with this. Yeah. And this is often what people when they become like this diverse way work of learning often this is one of the things that they they just want to focus on everything. Yeah. How come I can’t say that’s not important, is I. So, so, so so the type of learning that they were offer at the school was just really not suitable for his way of.
00:38:56:23 – 00:39:21:04 Unknown I really just know the good thing of this system was that they, this school was that they always were focusing and rewarding kids on the things that was that they were successful in. So that was, that was well thought out thing. But they, we all agreed, including our son, that this peer learning is just it’s just really not his system.
00:39:21:06 – 00:39:43:19 Unknown Then we so that was like his second school and then we agreed with the school to go to for a third year to go to another secondary school nearby near our home, which was originally a school for specialized education, but which was now like still was still for children with like normal learning abilities in and sense, like no like use.
00:39:43:21 – 00:40:09:01 Unknown But to have some need some extra guidance in how to come, how to be able to learn so that he was still in school glasses, I think like like 12 or 15 peers in his class. They were always focusing on trying to help this child to feel some kind of success and what that achieving and what they were also doing is also making sure.
00:40:09:03 – 00:40:29:23 Unknown But you still you’re still responsible to do hot work, is still school. You still new students do things that you may not like, but you need to do. So you need to do these kind of things. For instance, you had to write to to read a book and imagine not being able to sit still and then being forced to read a book.
00:40:29:23 – 00:40:49:03 Unknown I was just like, How? But this school said, okay, you need to read a book, but notice that you had to read a book by just holding a book. You can also listen to a book because in that sense you can also acquire like, like what’s going on. So he’s been walking and listening to books and I think sometimes just watching the film in one half hour.
00:40:49:04 – 00:41:08:16 Unknown So like he got like a summary of so that he’s a teenager. And then then that was his moment where he just couldn’t carry anymore and his grades just really dropped to just like, why I don’t what was in school. Now, when you’re a teenager, what’s what’s the reason for learning all this mess? And that is just stupid.
00:41:08:16 – 00:41:39:02 Unknown And and then the school teacher, the dean of the school, he phoned us and said that we need to have a talk with you and your son. And because things are not going well. And then they, they let us talk. And actually my son referred to it yesterday and you said, remember that talk we had with Thomas on the bear with us, this guy and and this guy says and tell you, That’s right, that’s my son’s like, you have got to choices.
00:41:39:04 – 00:42:02:12 Unknown Either you will be failing, then you become a school dropout. But because you’re still not 18, you need to then you need to be forced to go to a special type of education, which is like level one education, which means that you’ll become in the classroom with dropouts from other schools and between us, lots of people who are criminal.
00:42:02:12 – 00:42:23:01 Unknown And he was forced to go to Dave, one of those classes, yet you look at that. What’s this scenario? A is that you’ll be a school dropout, then you’ll be forced to go to school in this system. And that’s where you have to stay for the coming few years. Or you can take responsibility to make sure you get your exams.
00:42:23:03 – 00:42:44:09 Unknown But it means that you have to say sometimes no to gaming you something, have to say this, and your parents and us were very and we are very willing to help you. But you need to ask us. No one’s going to offer you any help without your question. And so what do you want to do? You 16 just tell us.
00:42:44:11 – 00:43:07:11 Unknown And so especially when he had been to this open class of this school, he suddenly realized this is really just not where I want to be. So he said, I’m going to make sure I’ll be doing this, my education, and okay, so break it. Then he had to think about his future, like, what will be my next step in my career?
00:43:07:13 – 00:43:38:07 Unknown And then we as parents were forced to take a child to this and education, an evening like like what’s what’s the next opportunity for education. So imagine after a hard day’s work on a Tuesday evening, you’re dragging your six year old son along with other parents, to this building where they are forced to listen to certain speeches about different education.
00:43:38:11 – 00:43:56:08 Unknown So all these kids, they were just like like like what are they like? Like cloth. They’re just like hanging on this, just looking at to see that, I don’t want to be here. And we just can’t see, which is like just sick of brunches. You never remember, like when you went to be a good parent. Like, just, just be active listening.
00:43:56:08 – 00:44:18:08 Unknown It just listed this. All these kids, like not only must, but ultimate ultimately until you leave home come those two things. And then my son, we went to just talk about like an education, but how to become a cook. And my son, we were just like, Listen, we’d like this. And my son is and he said, He’s just like, you went like this.
00:44:18:08 – 00:44:45:00 Unknown He just went a set approach. And it just gave me my elbow in my ribs and said, like, this is what I want you to come home and you become a cook or chef cook. And then from that moment, then he said to me, like, Can you please write down the dates and the contact information? And then from that moment on, he was just very motivated to do this work at school, and he’s done these exams and this summer he’s finished his last summer he’s finished.
00:44:45:00 – 00:45:15:00 Unknown His education is B as being a chef. So he’s now chefs and he’s really motivated and he now is now 21. my gosh, the five years. So he got yeah, it’s like, wow, he stuck with that for five years. Yeah. And he is is really he really is in a spark. Yeah. And so, so so if we look at our other son, he he’s still looking for his in the spark.
00:45:15:00 – 00:45:34:20 Unknown He knows some things but so he’s got like an in-between year. So he’s done this, this round of his education but he’s just doesn’t know what to do with his. There are some vague ideas and so a search at the moment is like just let him feel like and discover him for himself and say, like, you need to do this.
00:45:34:22 – 00:45:57:22 Unknown We are saying like, what does he want to do? Do it well and do athleticism. And and of course she needs money because when look at my son, when I was a student, it was so horrible jobs. I’ve worked in the slaughter house and just to earn money and it’s just like the most disgusting job that’s done. But somebody just needs to do those kind of things.
00:45:58:00 – 00:46:21:17 Unknown So but it’s really important to find your inner spark. And I think an encouraging environment helps you to stay on track even when things get difficult and for sure. So I’m going to be like, this way, because you’ve asked so many questions. Sorry, but, you know, this is this is really good. And I kind of wanted to ask you this next set of questions.
00:46:21:19 – 00:46:51:08 Unknown I’m going to try to just ask you one. But I have a problem. You know, like you know how you said, like you have a hard time linear izing your thoughts in writing because you see connections, right? And that’s why you’re like, if I can somehow figure out a way to ask my questions using visual communication, then I think that would make my life easier as well as my guests slaves easier or just everybody.
00:46:51:10 – 00:47:20:16 Unknown But, you know, the questions that I see are very abstract and they’re very visual, and I have to use words to combine them into something that makes sense for the other person. So I’m going to try and just just keep sessions. Okay. So something that I’ve been wondering. So you’ve told us about, you know, your kind of interdisciplinary road to finding your spark, right?
00:47:20:16 – 00:47:51:19 Unknown And finding your gift of being a visual communicator when you finally found because blue and then, you know, you told us about your son who, you know, kind of had struggled with finding the motivation to continue his studies until he went to that lecture or that training about becoming a chef and him realizing that that is what he wanted to do.
00:47:51:21 – 00:48:26:16 Unknown And so I’m wondering like, you know, when I think about the purpose of education, which I agree with your parents about, right. Which is to be to encourage that curiosity and to help your children find the spark to, you know, leave their own mark in the world. And so, you know, as education chefs and as, you know, society changes and so many jobs are now becoming obsolete.
00:48:26:18 – 00:49:06:06 Unknown I’m curious for you, what do you wish that you had learned in school or that, you know, school kind of did differently to help you and your son find that spark sooner or more easier? And without so much like trial and error, that kind of was demoralizing in some kind of ways. Okay. First of all, I’m going to answer your question.
00:49:06:06 – 00:49:25:15 Unknown Like, how can I maybe you cannot see it. But so what I say you saw it with this question that says, like, how did you find your own spark? And then you said something about like, you son, find your spark and then you related to like the purpose of education and encourage and to encourage curiosity like what parents say.
00:49:25:15 – 00:49:48:12 Unknown And so I put them up there. And then he talked about, like, what? What wish do you have? You had led schools have written about them. And then like what change about your what do you want to happen in compulsory education? So so what I do is like Austin and I, I didn’t write very neatly so you can’t really see it, but I can follow your way of thinking.
00:49:48:14 – 00:50:12:02 Unknown So the question you actually want to ask, like, what’s what changes can be done in the compulsory education. And this is also exactly how my brain works. Often like I start talking and while talking might suddenly I see or I hear says in line of my thinking and, then the best question is like, what’s the edge or not?
00:50:12:02 – 00:50:47:01 Unknown Like the main focus. But the thing is, as expected, it works. But technically all those thoughts are in my mind when I So all of those thoughts are there already in my mind. And because speaking is linear, I have to start with one thought. And then while I’m talking, it’s like I’m connecting them. So technically I started with all of these thoughts already, but because of the timing and the sequencing anyway.
00:50:47:03 – 00:51:05:22 Unknown Yeah. Yeah. Because if you would have like spoke out two questions simultaneously, I would be able to hear you. So that’s the reason why I need to create some kind of structure. But it’s also I can find your line of thinking how you come to this, this last question, because that’s actually, I think, the main question that you want to ask.
00:51:06:00 – 00:51:45:13 Unknown Yes. And the thing is, I’m not sure. So I’m a very strong believer that things happen for a reason and maybe not like this overall plan that has been been designed previously. And then I’m only like this this rabbit that has to follow the path. Not like that. But I think my unique experiences as a as a young person help me to be where I am now.
00:51:45:15 – 00:52:09:17 Unknown The same with my son. I think like this his the things he went through, the things we went through with his parents helped him now to be in this spot, I’m not sure if we would have been able to speed up that process, but maybe say like he would have been offered when he was like this first secondary school.
00:52:09:17 – 00:52:33:11 Unknown They was said, you can become a cook later. It would not have makes sense at that moment in time to go there. That was just like, it’s a thing of so you just you think you get experiences, you reflect upon it, you explore things, something you think it seemed to be a good idea, but please not never again.
00:52:33:12 – 00:53:05:18 Unknown And all these experiences add on to where you are now. The choices that you’ve made in the past. And you can only look at, okay, this is where I am not so you can only follow back your trail. However, at the same time I do what education systems offer you and parents, I would say as well, offer you a wider range, is exploring without having the necessity to choose directly.
00:53:06:22 – 00:53:42:08 Unknown So just and from that when you exploring many things help children, young people also adults help them to reflect upon the experiences that they’ve had. Yeah, because being able to look back and reflect upon it will give you insights that you can take with you into the future. So like I know that I even though I can think on an academic level, I would die if I had to be an academic at university.
00:53:42:10 – 00:54:01:18 Unknown That’s just not the surrounds. What I buy frozen and I know that by experiences I get extremely bored the same Like in the past when I had my business for quite a while and I’d like this business coach and know said you need to focus on one thing and then the sports do nothing. So I don’t want to focus on one thing.
00:54:01:18 – 00:54:30:13 Unknown I really need this diversity in things I’m doing. I’ve got like two big main things, but I also need like wiggle space. I need to have playtime, I need to be able to because I’m entrepreneur. Why is it like I don’t want to go to work today because I don’t feel like it. It’s just my life. it’s decided like that’s but also what I think this thing really gives me energy, even though it’s not like the main core of my business, but it just gives me so much fun and joy.
00:54:30:15 – 00:55:06:16 Unknown I’m just going to do it. So I think education systems need to offer more space for exploration. Yeah, at playtime and meaning that there is no guidance towards a a goal. It’s really like the goal should be explore and try many things out. Don’t be afraid to fail because it also gives you insights, learning. And once you’ve done things, please help them to learn how to reflect upon it.
00:55:06:18 – 00:55:32:06 Unknown So what are good questions that you can ask for yourself, which is says people okay to coming 10 minutes? You just think in your head like, what? What have you been doing? What did you like? What did you want to change or what do you want to take with you to the future? What did you discover for yourself that so many questions that you can ask and having these sort of questions helps you to reflect upon it from different perspectives and achieve things.
00:55:32:08 – 00:56:11:07 Unknown And also, I’m a big advocate of bringing visual communication, of visual language into the educational system because it helps you to explore things in different ways. So now I’m a very strong believer and then the other creative subjects like lap dance, singing, building or whatever, but also playing with materials, discovering things through you. So it’s I often say, like people learn with the head, heart and hands with your head.
00:56:11:07 – 00:56:37:01 Unknown You can think about what’s going on. You know, you get all the knowledge with your heart, you know, like what you really like, what you don’t like, what gives you energy. And with your hands, you know how to make things. And by having those three balance, it helps you to to grow. And so if you would just be thinking and then then you would just be thinking and it would be no actions, right?
00:56:37:02 – 00:56:56:16 Unknown It would just be your house. You were stuck over all these emotions all the time, though. It’s like it would just be your hands. You would just like make things without a plan, which is like it would crumble. So the combination of these three is something I strongly believe in. Education, and I know some people they really prefer more to be in the head of is more in the heart.
00:56:56:16 – 00:57:19:18 Unknown I was more the hands that have all these three elements, these three elements at least in the education system, I think is very needed combined with parents. Please, parents. It’s just like my coaches, you please all parts stop pushing your child to be something that they may not want to be. If you want to become a lawyer, please support them.
00:57:19:18 – 00:57:49:18 Unknown But if you a son, even though you’re a lawyer, so says, I want to become a fireman. why? Tell me what what makes you curious about becoming a fireman? And what does a fireman do? And did you ever. So this is about asking questions, going with them in their line of thinking, letting them explore it, helping them fire questions, to explore, to even settle even, or getting some kind of experience in its reflect upon it and not saying it.
00:57:49:18 – 00:58:16:14 Unknown The first dream, you shouldn’t do this. or you can’t because I think it’s even worse. How often do kids hear from teachers? you can’t do this because you stupid or no, you can’t do this because you’re a girl or because you’re a boy or because you’re from the neighborhood or because whatever, whatever. So help you to stick to their explore them and they really discover it was nice dreaming about it, but I don’t want to become reality.
00:58:16:14 – 00:58:28:12 Unknown That’s okay as well. Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.