Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of my name––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
Computer-generated Transcript of Conversation
00:00:03:15 – 00:00:29:01 Unknown Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the educational system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed as a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following. I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:29:03 – 00:01:00:00 Unknown I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the one that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be.
00:01:00:02 – 00:01:26:01 Unknown What it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Leah, a web designer, community builder, mom and content creator, about the various events in her life that catalyzed a career shift from psychology to design.
00:01:26:03 – 00:01:54:13 Unknown We talk about her earliest memories of various adult figures preventing her from pursuing her creativity and what she thinks we need to do differently about how we educate our children, both at home and in schools. She also shares a brilliant negotiation hack that convinced her son to learn a new language. Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:54:15 – 00:02:26:06 Unknown So growing up from elementary school on, it was very stereotypical Asian upbringing. I grew up in a small town in California, a farming town pretty diverse, so I didn’t really feel othered, I guess, in the sense that like I was different from anyone else. However, in terms of school stereotypes, I was definitely the straight-A student, the nerd, right?
00:02:26:06 – 00:03:06:03 Unknown I mean, looking back now, it’s it’s the very definition of a model minority. I never had any thoughts of rebellion. I listened to teachers, to my parents, turn in all my homework on time. And I think the biggest thing, you know, now that I’m reflecting on it is I put a lot of pressure on myself and I put a lot of pressure on myself to maintain those straight A’s, to stay up all night for however long it takes to make sure I studied and prepared and, you know, did all the things.
00:03:06:05 – 00:03:34:03 Unknown So aware. I know you asked about early education. I can get a little bit more into this later for all the years of education I had through college, I definitely had that clarity that the end goal was to get a good and stable career. Education was the key to that. So two examples growing up where this manifested itself.
00:03:34:03 – 00:04:00:15 Unknown I guess the biggest one was I didn’t know how to adult by the time I got to college. My parents did all my laundry. I was never pressured to get a job. I was really not allowed to get a job, you know, in high school or anything like that. And their take was, you know, you and your sister need to focus on getting good grades and getting a good education, getting into college, and we’ll take care of everything else.
00:04:00:18 – 00:04:21:14 Unknown Right. Like, the one thing you need to do is get into college. So so with that, Ray, as you can imagine, like when I got to college, it was definitely a feeling of like, how do I do laundry? I use the dishwasher and like, it flooded over because I thought dish soap was dishwasher safe. You know, like, all those things.
00:04:21:14 – 00:04:54:00 Unknown Like, you don’t really have that. Be nice to know. So, so yeah, so that’s definitely one example. I just feel like I didn’t have any exposure to anything other than education growing up. The other piece, which I’m proud of, is in sixth grade, I won my school spelling bee and I was second in the county, so I was one word away from making it to D.C. for the championships.
00:04:54:01 – 00:05:21:22 Unknown Wow. And and to this day, I now know how to spell the word melancholy. I spelled it wrong on stage, but I got a $50 gift certificate to the local shopping mall. So that was good. But but that was a realization of hard work, because I remember that morning prepping for the actual contest I had, like, cousins, aunts, uncles calling me, Wish me luck.
00:05:22:00 – 00:05:46:00 Unknown The school principal came and, you know, like, I think that’s where I saw the impact of hard work of practicing. My dad would run me through the book of, like, spelling bee words every night. Test me. And I had that sense of accomplishment. And to this day, it is like, pretty cool to look back and say, I did that.
00:05:46:01 – 00:06:07:05 Unknown You know, I try and instill that in my kids. Like they love word games. They love trying to, you know, spell things. And I nit pick when they spell things wrong. And and it’s definitely a quality thing. I see it in my work today as a designer. I’m very nit picky about the details and the words. If something’s spelled wrong, it is glaring to me.
00:06:07:07 – 00:06:40:14 Unknown I hate type, you know, So its pros and cons, right? But it’s also that that pressure to just always be on, always be good, always be a perfectionist, be a straight-A student. The last thing I’ll say about that is I don’t say I was like really bullied, but there were times where, you know, like people call you names or people just make assumptions, you know, like you’re the good kid or Yeah, so it is what it is.
00:06:40:14 – 00:07:14:09 Unknown Right? And I feel just a lot of that was the messaging, both that education, which is true is the key to like being having a financially secure and stable career and all that stuff. Living the American dream and how it was, you know, defined growing up and also the the intrinsic motivation of how rewarding it could be to put in the work into something and work hard for something and see the outcome of that work.
00:07:14:09 – 00:07:42:23 Unknown So, yeah, yeah, that’s really amazing. Some of the things that you shared I could relate to, which was particularly like being really interested in words and like I was obsessed with Scrabble for a really big portion of my life. Yes. And that was like, you know, a dream of mine to actually go and compete professionally or competitively. And so I can relate to that.
00:07:42:23 – 00:08:13:07 Unknown Everything else I can’t really relate to like that. The excellence, right, that you were able to demonstrate that kind of excellence that was valued in society. You know, like my gifts, I think were largely ignored. And if they were acknowledged, it wasn’t really helpful in what we consider like the conventional path to social mobility. You know, like, great, you can draw a picture.
00:08:13:07 – 00:08:35:15 Unknown What are you going to do with that? You know, like when I was growing up, it was still very much like the starving artist mentality. And like you mentioned, you didn’t you mentioned that you didn’t rebel. You were a good kid. You did kind of what you were told and you lived up to the expectations, no problem. And you got sometimes bullied.
00:08:35:15 – 00:09:04:18 Unknown And for being like this nice person, sweet person, good kid, you know, good student and I’m wondering like, how that has sort of impacted the way that you socialize with people and whether you are able to disagree when you need to. And, you know, how do you hold those boundaries when you feel like people try to take advantage of you in terms of rebellion?
00:09:04:19 – 00:09:32:08 Unknown So I say, I didn’t rebel. Okay, let’s be real. Like by the time I graduated from high school, I think that was the summer before college. I definitely rebelled. My mom What if my mom listen to this. Anyway, so I drink alcohol for the first time, came home, hung over. Wow. You know what was straight to my bedroom After hanging out with friends, so.
00:09:32:08 – 00:10:07:12 Unknown And I don’t think they. They noticed. That’s great. But it was. It was like that. It was literally like I never partied during high school. But yeah, the moment summer here, I was off to college. I definitely, I guess, appreciated and did it have those constraints? Like, I want to try it all, you know, like not all, like go super crazy, but you know, definitely had my fair share of, of parties of staying out late and whatnot.
00:10:07:14 – 00:10:39:10 Unknown So so there is that piece of it. But I think more importantly social relationships reflecting back what comes up for me is I did have a hard time even after college, I’d say in my early twenties I was in several relationships where I feel like I either stayed too long or I let people definitely take advantage of me and I felt that, well, here, let me let me backtrack.
00:10:39:10 – 00:11:03:09 Unknown So one other message now. This is coming up. Growing up, right, Like the reason that my parents valued education so much is because they emigrated here from the Philippines. They were both you know, they came to the to America for a better life and they never let my sister and I forget that. So it was it was a lot of guilt tripping, right.
00:11:03:09 – 00:11:37:02 Unknown Like, you owe us this. We brought you here. We gave you a better life. Make sure you don’t squander it. Right. Is essentially the the messaging in growing up so says you can imagine right like it it does lead to being a doormat in some ways. So definitely a lot of you know, my initial relationships during college and after college, I was pretty naive and didn’t know how to express myself right.
00:11:37:04 – 00:12:03:12 Unknown It’s kind of like, okay, like this is a situation I’m in and it sucks and, you know, it leaves a lot of like fighting. And part of that is not being able to articulate like, well, what do I need or what do I stand for? What do I want? And when you’re at a place where you can’t articulate that, you can’t ask for what you actually need, right?
00:12:03:12 – 00:12:23:22 Unknown When you can’t ask for what you actually need, you know, something doesn’t feel right, but you don’t have the clarity to express it. And that’s where I was so many times, so many times I watch and I react. Right. And it seems like I’m overreacting to like one incident. And it was hard for me to pinpoint like, no, like this is a pattern.
00:12:24:00 – 00:12:47:01 Unknown This happens to me so many times. Why do you do this? It really is an aggregate of the past year and a half where you’ve done the same thing over and over in different ways, but you ignore my needs or you definitely prioritize your friends over me, or, you know, why am I the one driving 6 hours to see you every few months?
00:12:47:01 – 00:13:25:12 Unknown Like, how come you never visit me? Right? Like, it’s kind of that thing and Right. And you hear the rationale like, Well, you don’t work weekends. I do that, you know, whatever. Right? And you know, and, you know, obviously in hindsight, like, I know better and I will never be in that situation again, that that was a huge learning curve because I had the pressure put on me and my goal was to meet those goals, make it work, despite whatever, you know, definitely I was in places.
00:13:25:12 – 00:13:53:12 Unknown I was in situations that I should have left early on or I should have vocalized. Right. And I think that’s just it was learning how to do that was probably a good portion of my mid and late twenties was finally and I would jump from relationship to relationship like I had a three year relationship in college. I was probably single for a month or two, jumped into a two year relationship, a single for a month or two.
00:13:53:13 – 00:14:29:20 Unknown I still have to say another. So, you know, like I barely had time to myself. And finally after that, you know, then I had some like time for myself. And I was very intentional for the first time. Like I was not ready for jumping into anything new. And I did the deep work and it came during a time that I was just not happy, like with the job, Like I had after college with yeah, the relationships I had, just even where I live, it’s like all of the things I was just like, Is this really all there is to life?
00:14:29:20 – 00:14:54:22 Unknown Like I worked so hard to get here and it didn’t make sense to me. And I went probably for a year, like reading leadership books, reading self-help books, read, you know, like just trying to, like, start to figure out, like, what is it, what is it that I was missing or what did I actually want? So yeah, yes.
00:14:54:22 – 00:15:28:13 Unknown And gosh, that’s really relatable in terms of like the journey of kind of extending yourself or like stretching yourself so you can meet the needs of other people, but not knowing exactly what you needed to feel whole and secure within yourself. And so it took that like time of reading and searching for what is the reason I am this way?
00:15:28:13 – 00:16:07:14 Unknown What is the reason? How can I shrink myself, not shrink, but how can I bring myself back to the integrity of myself and what I need? And I’m curious, like in this arc, what do you think was the answer? What do you think was the catalyst in helping you realize the pattern shift you needed to make to go the other direction?
00:16:07:16 – 00:16:41:23 Unknown So so this one I, I wrote in articles about I, it’s the reason why I do a lot of the creative things I do now. There was a time in 2010 where I did like basically get to, I guess like the crux of it, right? Like, like the tail end of a toxic relationship. Finally, after taking some classes in graphic design and realizing I wanted to do something a little bit more creative and finally deciding to get my MFA.
00:16:42:01 – 00:17:07:00 Unknown And this is when I lost my dad like the same year. And it was that last part when I lost my dad that I realized I didn’t like living where I was at the time. I realized that, yeah, I needed to finally end the relationship that you know, I was just trying way too hard for way too long to be in.
00:17:07:01 – 00:17:42:18 Unknown And yeah, it’s there’s a term for it. I don’t remember what it’s called now, but it’s essentially like it’s office of a post-traumatic disorder, but it’s kind of like you get. Yeah, exactly. So I experienced that and it hit me that life is way too short and I ended up just scrapping everything. I, I didn’t hang on to friends that no longer serve me.
00:17:42:18 – 00:18:16:09 Unknown I didn’t hang on to the job that no longer serve me the relationship, you know. And when I left that apartment, broke the lease. I left a lot of my belongings there. All right? Like, you know, at that point, I was like, okay, like, what do I actually need? I moved in with my sister. I moved an hour and a half away, you know, And then after a grieving period, you know, came back to my master’s program and, you know, went at it full force to to move into design.
00:18:16:11 – 00:18:42:20 Unknown Right. Which was the career I was finally able to, you know, articulate that I wanted. And I think and that in itself is a long and winding story. So you mentioned that for you, you know, you were acknowledged in your art and but you you always knew you wanted to be an artist. For me, I would also sit in my room.
00:18:42:20 – 00:19:11:09 Unknown I would do a lot of creative writing, poetry, doodling, sketching thing, like trying to draw Sailor Moon, you know, like, I really loved anime. Yes, like I loved it. Which stand sailor would you? legit Sailor Moon. really? Was like, yes. Wait, what is yours? I so I really like Sailor Venus for a long time, but I switched over in my older years of really liking Sailor Mars.
00:19:11:11 – 00:19:28:12 Unknown I was going to say Sailor Mars for you. Really? I don’t know just how you look right now. You’re like, wearing red and you have, like, the long black hair. But I was going to say, Sailor. my gosh, that’s so funny. Wait, so you were. my gosh. You know what’s crazy is I was just looking at Sailor Mars stuff this morning.
00:19:28:12 – 00:19:49:16 Unknown So that’s that’s really funny that you mentioned Sailor Moon. So tell me, you were, like, drawing all these things you were studying design. I actually forgot what you majored in in undergrad. So let me tell you the back story. Yes, I did not major at design. I did nothing art related in college. I majored in psychology. That’s right.
00:19:49:18 – 00:20:11:10 Unknown Minored in cognitive science. In middle school. I took my very first art class ever Got to be. How the hell do you get a P in art class, right? It pisses me off. I put in the work. I did everything the teacher told first formal art training and whatever. Like, I didn’t copy the lines, right? I didn’t follow the grid.
00:20:11:12 – 00:20:35:16 Unknown Whatever it was, I got a B and I cried. A straight-A student getting a B like is very painful. And for it to be in a subjective, you know, something subjective, like art, it’s like, no, you should just grade people on effort or not. Like, how are you going to give me a B? Like, like, you know, this is something I was like, I thought I wanted to, like, pursue.
00:20:35:18 – 00:21:02:06 Unknown And that totally killed it for me from from a very formal education. There was no reason, right? It’s like, like your wolf doesn’t look like this. Other person’s wolf. Like, Yeah, because, like, it didn’t draw. Like, growing up, I was training for studying fields and athletics and, you know, you know, like science and art was something that, you know, I wanted to see if it was a possibility.
00:21:02:08 – 00:21:27:04 Unknown And I remember after that, for the longest time, I was like, I’m not an artist. I’ll never be an artist. And I would envy everyone in high school who would like get their little, like, sketchbooks and draw like I had you know, several friends who are really good at it. And like, I had the mindset, like, it’s just something that I can sketch, but I’ll never be an artist, you know, because of that.
00:21:27:04 – 00:21:44:14 Unknown And that is one thing that I hate. I know this is a good question you’re going to ask later, but formal education, art like how do you how do you do that to some kid? You know, like you’re not that great at art. It’s like, I’m not that great at art. Yeah, like, that’s what you’re supposed to teach me.
00:21:44:16 – 00:22:08:23 Unknown But yeah, I love that word. So yes, get So as you can imagine, I move through high school. I move through college, envying all my friends who are in graphic design and fashion and doing these creative things. So what I ended up doing was my work arounds were the hobbies. So I did violin, I did choir, I did things in groups.
00:22:08:23 – 00:22:37:23 Unknown I did things creatively where I could express myself, but never from a visual standpoint because I just felt like, like people are born artists, apparently, like, you know, so. So it took me a while. It took me well, I think I mentioned to you, but last year I finally enrolled in an art program and I finally gained the confidence to realize, like, Yeah, anyone can be an artist, you know, like, you just need to be taught the right way.
00:22:38:01 – 00:23:05:20 Unknown And I feel like I wasted a lot of years to be honest. Yeah. Avoiding art, feeling like I was not an artist. Design was the closest I could get, which still had that logical brain. So you still use a lot of left brained thinking to solve problems creatively, but it’s still a very you know, you use math, you use science, right?
00:23:05:20 – 00:23:41:05 Unknown You use like golden ratios and you think about behavior is like it’s a very calculated way to get to be creative, right? That’s what design is about. Art for the sake of art, for self-expression. Like, you know, I feel like I’m finally starting to get out what I wanted to do all these years ago. And yeah, so that is why I pursued psychology.
00:23:41:07 – 00:24:10:07 Unknown It was something that to me felt creative within my bounds. I definitely constrained myself because it was hard to feel like I could be that artist. I needed to be like, I’m good with words, I’m good with logic problems. Like psychology is, you know, like human behavior, right? It’s unpredictable. But you learn a lot of frameworks how to explain things.
00:24:10:07 – 00:24:39:06 Unknown And and to me, that was like the closest I could get. And then user experience design came along and it was like a marriage of psychology to producing things visually. And at the time it was like the sweet spot and it felt like it was the closest I could get to express, you know, to, to actually enjoy and be passionate about, you know, like something that I could call my day job.
00:24:39:08 – 00:25:04:10 Unknown And now finally I’m like, okay, like art is like, not this big scary thing. Actually, you know, something that I could do, and I wish I could go back in time and tell my, you know, 13 year old self like, screw that art teacher, you know, like, do all the art classes, right? Yeah. And then again, of course, I had parents who probably wouldn’t see art as lucrative either.
00:25:04:12 – 00:25:26:19 Unknown So when I did take the leap to to get my MFA, I remember the call. Like I remember driving home from work one day and calling my parents. I’m like, So what would you think if I enrolled in this design program and got my master’s and did web design? And I remember being so scared of that call, and I was like in my twenties already.
00:25:26:19 – 00:25:51:09 Unknown I was living on my own and I still needed my parents permission, right? They granted it to me, right? They’re like, Well, you’re an adult now. Like you make your own choices. But I honestly inside feel like there is a sense of failure. If I pursued something more creative, right? My job out of college was in like, business administration.
00:25:51:10 – 00:26:22:05 Unknown It was, yeah, like doing, like, finances and all of the things just to keep a department at a medical school running. So yeah, has not created. So this is something that I wanted to talk to you about a little bit more. And actually in general, this is kind of been maybe the background purpose of why I have this podcast.
00:26:22:06 – 00:26:55:04 Unknown But, you know, the more I speak with people about their education journeys and just in the way that people phrase things or the way they share, you know, their values and beliefs through the way that they speak about things and compare things and contrast things. And it came up again in this conversation, I think maybe not the specific word, but this idea of art or creativity not being legitimate, right?
00:26:55:09 – 00:28:01:18 Unknown Like not a valued skill or something that is not societal, that is not societal. It’s a socially societal be accepted as a career or a future or something worth while, right? This creativity piece, this exploring who you are creatively is not legitimate, you know? And I find that really painful and personal for me. I get goose bumps whenever I think about it because I feel like so much of my life I felt othered and different because the way that I naturally feel happy and healthy is when I’m thinking creatively and and sharing what is in my mind and sharing that with the world and so much of my life.
00:28:01:18 – 00:29:04:18 Unknown It was like, this is not valuable. This is not a worthwhile time, this is a waste of time. Anybody can do this, you know, like your art is worth nothing. What do you think you can do with this? Right? It’s like this societal, constant messaging, not always directly, but even indirectly, as well. And so going back to your art teacher who gave you a B, write on something that is so subjective, I’m wondering for you, what do you think you wish school could have done or how school could be systemized in a way where you didn’t have to spend, you know, decades going back to who you are and finding a sense of fun and
00:29:04:18 – 00:30:06:08 Unknown exploration and enjoyment of your life? What do you think your parents or society or family or school could have done for you to make sure that you don’t that you didn’t experience that kind of internal turmoil about having to choose what was legitimate versus what brought you joy? Now, that’s a really great question. What’s interesting is the last couple of years I’ve been in my career, I was an individual contributor, hoping to be a manager for the longest time, and I felt like I was a small I was hitting once I got mentorship, once I got a career coach, within months, like I got my first you know, I landed my first director role, got
00:30:06:08 – 00:30:32:06 Unknown another like two offers plus like a third on the way, which I just like now I really like this other company. I’m going to go with them and it makes me reflect back like, honestly, we could all benefit, right? Even early education to have mentors and to have teachers who are more like guides on helping you discover where your strengths lie or to articulate like what is it you enjoy doing?
00:30:32:08 – 00:31:05:10 Unknown And like that should be the thing you pursue. And the beauty of creativity is, yes, let’s figure out how you’re going to make a living out of that without. Here’s one of four things Be a doctor, be a lawyer, be you know, and pick one of those whether or not it’s, you know, like I said, like when you’re coming out, when you’re leaving everything behind to follow a dream in America, you’re probably coming from a place of scarcity, right?
00:31:05:12 – 00:31:34:07 Unknown Not abundance, you know, with the public school system, it’s the same way, right? Like, you know, they’re trying to achieve these certain goals. Make sure, you know, students are hitting the right targets and whatnot. And there is this lack of focus on like, well, you as an individual, like, what do you want to do? Because I remember like growing up, my aunt asked me, like, what do I want to be when I grow up?
00:31:34:09 – 00:31:58:19 Unknown And I forgot how old I was. And I was really vulnerable though. And I said, like, I want to be a singer. And she laughed. And I was like, Well, maybe that’s I guess that’s not a good career. So then it became piano Teacher or veterinarian, and at least that was I didn’t get laughed at. So it’s like, okay, I guess I’ll be one of those, you know, And it has these hidden messages, right?
00:31:58:19 – 00:32:14:21 Unknown No one explicitly told me like, No, like you can’t be an artist. Well, one, because I was never brave enough to, you know, like, say, I want to be an artist until I was 21 and called my parents, you know, after I was an adult and said, like, is it okay if I enroll in this design right to get paid, I’ll pay for it.
00:32:14:21 – 00:32:33:02 Unknown Yeah. Yeah. I had to ask for permission and yeah, like, I mean to say, like I want to be a senior, I just like, get laughed at. It’s, you know, like, well, clearly why do you don’t think that’s a, you know, something that’s possible for me and to like. Okay like I guess that’s not something I should be sharing with people, right?
00:32:33:02 – 00:33:04:03 Unknown So then it becomes like, you know, like, you know, I think you just like, hang on to those cues. Like, okay, like this, to your point, is not a socially acceptable goal. So yeah, like one thing I am very intentional about now in my parenting is, is to have my kids follow their curiosity. I push them enough to try something and then I give them time to reflect, you know, and tell me like, is this something I want to keep doing?
00:33:04:05 – 00:33:20:03 Unknown For example, my daughter refused to do anything and finally I got her to say yes to Thai Quando So she did that for a month and she looked like she was enjoying it. But then when I asked her one day like, Hey, you know, do you mind if you skip practice? We need to do like this other thing.
00:33:20:03 – 00:33:37:19 Unknown And she’s like, That’s okay. And then afterwards, the following day, she was like, Actually, I don’t want to go to practice anymore. And, you know, I was like, okay, fair enough. You put a month in. I think that’s enough to see if you like it or not. And then now she landed on piano and I check in with her every month like, do you still like piano?
00:33:37:23 – 00:34:00:03 Unknown Yes, right. And I’m like, Cool. Then you know, I’ll continue supporting you in that with my son. It’s soccer like. And one time he was talking with basketball, and then I was like, Do you want to try doing birthdays? Like, No, I like soccer or in the basketball. I’m like, cool. And I think it’s that, right? Like, and it shouldn’t just be on the parents, but it’s they’re in school every day, like for a good amount of their time.
00:34:00:03 – 00:34:21:22 Unknown Like, you know, I’m hoping they’re getting that some same kind of guidance there. Or at the very least, no one’s laughing at them for their dreams. My son wants to be a professional soccer player when he grows up. Right. And I do whatever I can to, like, help him visualize that, you know, like, could be in the World Cup, You could be at the Olympics, You know, you could join a local team, right?
00:34:21:22 – 00:34:49:01 Unknown You can coach. You can teach other kids, you know, like soccer is a viable option no matter how you eventually make money from it. Right. Like, if that’s something you enjoy doing. Yeah. Yes. I’m not going to stop you. Right? Yeah. And I think what’s I think a lot of teachers and parents are misguided in that they think, okay, if you have if you have a desire of wanting to be a singer or a professional soccer player.
00:34:49:07 – 00:35:31:11 Unknown Right. It does it. I mean, they’re like five, six, 12, You know what I mean? Like, sure. Because that’s their world view. That’s how much they understand the world. And that doesn’t mean we should prevent them from pursuing that. It just means that that’s the direction that they’re going to go in for now. And then, you know, as they see like their own boundaries and constraints, they will stem from that and go down another route that is either more viable or more interesting to them or more enjoyable or has more opportunities or is less, you know, saturated in the market, whatever it is.
00:35:31:11 – 00:35:56:09 Unknown But I think it’s very important, like you said, to check in with, do they enjoy it? Do they have an interest in it and are they thriving and well and healthy? And if so, then let them pursue that path until they decide that they want to go in another direction. Right. So I think what you’re doing is brilliant.
00:35:56:11 – 00:36:17:10 Unknown And yeah, it’s like, what do you think about it? Really big picture. Like who am I to kill someone? Streaks, right? I don’t want to be that art teacher that gives. I want to be like. Like, you know, like no one should have the right and the power to do that right. Especially especially if you grow up thinking you don’t have the agency or the voice to say otherwise.
00:36:17:15 – 00:36:34:14 Unknown Right. And the other thing right by checking out my kids, I want them to know they have the agency to stop at any time, to change their mind at any time. And it’s something I’m super passionate that isn’t great. And them, even though if they don’t understand why I’m asking them, like, are you sure you still want to do this?
00:36:34:14 – 00:36:51:02 Unknown Okay, cool. Right? And you know, like, I tell them it’s okay to change your mind. And when my daughter was four, like, she heard that for the first time, she she said like no to something. And the leader said yes. And then her brother was like, No, you just said no. And then she’s like, It’s okay to change your mind.
00:36:51:02 – 00:37:16:07 Unknown And I’m like, Exactly. Like, don’t ever forget that you have the agency to do that. And it’s something growing up. I just it sounds silly, but like, I felt that I never felt the agency over my own life, right, until I decided to finally, like I had it with the life I had. And there’s got to be something better, I guess, having 20 years to figure that out.
00:37:16:09 – 00:37:38:07 Unknown Right? And it’s like, this should be like something they teach you in school. It should be something that’s inherently like you, like you own your life. You get to decide what to do with it, use and then leverage the people who have a little bit more experience to guide you along the way, right? I mean, that’s what it should be.
00:37:38:07 – 00:38:05:11 Unknown And yeah, like I think, yeah, education the way it is so much left to Yeah yeah to change you get there. But exactly. And I want to ask you actually when you said you met with your mentor and a career coach, you know, they were able to help you position your strengths and pull from that to get you the job that you were seeking, right.
00:38:05:11 – 00:38:42:20 Unknown Or the roles that you were seeking. And I’m curious, like if we were to take that kind of same model of having teachers be more of these types of coaches and strengths, finding mentors, what kind of questions should we be asking? What kinds of things should we be looking out for? Like what are some things that you’re coached in for you or questions they asked you that kind of helped you kind of go the direction you wanted to head in?
00:38:42:22 – 00:39:00:15 Unknown So the first one, my mentor took one look at my resume and she’s like, You already have all the skills you need. Like because I was telling her, like in two or three years, I want be a director. And she was like, You could be one now. And this is after hearing no at my company so many times.
00:39:00:15 – 00:39:24:21 Unknown Can I get a promotion when I get can I get promoted? Can I start leading like at least one person and, you know, like to get shot down like that so many times and feel like, okay, I guess I’m not ready yet. And to have someone who’s already there like a V.P. of some agency like look at my resume and like, no, like just reformat your resume in this way and then let’s see what happens.
00:39:24:23 – 00:39:44:00 Unknown And sure enough, like it was a confidence. So I think that’s that first one, just validating what’s already there. Right. And that’s what, you know, I look to her for like, what am I missing? You know, where is the gap? And I was like, there is no gap, right? It’s just the way you present it. And to me, that was like the biggest moment ever.
00:39:44:00 – 00:40:07:10 Unknown And also something I haven’t hadn’t heard till then. So that’s something, right? Like I would want the education system to provide is like understand where the person is now and what do they already bring to the table. The second piece is to follow your curiosity, right? That’s that was my year long reading books. All the things I was to understand while growing up.
00:40:07:10 – 00:40:33:07 Unknown What was I interested in? Right? It’s always like, think back to when you were a little and no one told you like anything about what to expect. You know what interested you, What brought you energy, you know, what did you find yourself always drawn to When they’re kids? You already see that. You see that they’re like, attracted to like kicking every ball they see or that, you know, they like to seeing or they like to act.
00:40:33:07 – 00:40:56:21 Unknown Right. And it’s, you know, then you guide them on that way. Like, you know, is this something that’s a hobby or is this something like you might want to really just do you, you know, as something, you know, that makes you a living? Right. And I think it’s it’s that it’s in response to what a kid’s already doing like be that mirror for them, Right?
00:40:56:21 – 00:41:20:03 Unknown Like, I see you’re already doing this. You know, let me show you some of the ways that you could apply this to other things. Right. Are any of these things something you’d be interested in? And it really is? You know, and I’d be curious to find this out. Like at what age do do kids have that sense of having the answers within themselves?
00:41:20:03 – 00:41:38:08 Unknown Right. Because as an adult, you go through mentors and coaches and they all just draw the answer that’s already inside of you, out of you, right? Like every coaching session I have had was a series of like, Well, what problems do you want to solve today? And you live with, okay, here’s some homework. Great. You take action on this.
00:41:38:10 – 00:41:57:05 Unknown And it was like the same framework, but I’d always have an moment or I’d be like, I never thought of it that way. And it’s not the coach telling me to do something. It’s them asking me something and me telling them. And then all of a sudden I have the answer that I realize and it’s like, you know, like it’d be cool.
00:41:57:05 – 00:42:31:10 Unknown Like, you know, that’s what I want my kids to, to feel right, to know that within themselves is already that feeling of yes and no. Or more of this, less of that. Right. And just someone to help them get it out, articulate it and point them in that direction. Right. So, yeah, for sure. And you know what? I’m connecting this with something you said earlier and you said or that experience with you getting a B in art class.
00:42:31:12 – 00:43:04:08 Unknown Right. And this idea of looking at the child’s strengths and drawing out of them what it is they think they want to do next or they have that answer within them, and you’re just kind of excavating them and you’re showing them like a mirror. This is who you are, this is what you can be, this is what your interests are.
00:43:04:10 – 00:43:48:15 Unknown And somehow that reflection back to the child is validation enough and a confidence boost to say, Hey, somebody sees me for who I am and I know what direction I want to go in next, I feel like that’s really huge. So what do you think we can do in conventional education or education systems or at schools specifically about how we message those strengths and how we can gut the current like A, B, C, D, grading system?
00:43:48:17 – 00:44:22:07 Unknown Because, you know, like if I look back at report cards, it’s like, a pleasure to have in class. Great. How is this helping me in any kind of way? You are passing a subjective value judgment on me right now that’s useless and just as useless is like it does not behave or does not complete assignments as directed like, great, this is all about compliance, but it has no bearing on how I’m going to succeed.
00:44:22:07 – 00:44:57:17 Unknown You’re not giving me any constructive feedback of what I can do to become a better person that can grow up and be a contributing member of society. So in general, I guess I’m asking, what do you think we can do about how the current evaluation is designed? How can we redesign it so that we are being that mirror and providing that mentoring and coaching so that they have constructive feedback and validation to know where to head in next?
00:44:57:19 – 00:45:22:23 Unknown That’s a great question. Finally, enough now that I think back, that’s probably why I was a doormat. I was praised for being a good listener and for following directions and being very compliant. You know, like in the real world, like that only leads to people taking advantage of you. So, you know, like, that’s really scary. I never thought of it that way.
00:45:23:00 – 00:45:48:08 Unknown Going back to your question, going back to your question, honestly, of course, I think teacher student ratios are going to be impossible to meet this, Right? Like, how do you get that personalization? Of course. Right. Like a teacher is going to focus on certain students on either end of the spectrum. Like what about the ones in the middle who are just average?
00:45:48:10 – 00:46:13:03 Unknown You know, what would be ideal, though, right? Is having the intention intentionality to identify one, right? Like maybe it’s the beginning of the year like and they do this already, right? It’s like, tell me about your interests. What do you enjoy doing? You know, what do you like? Right? They already get this information just naturally. But what do they do with it?
00:46:13:05 – 00:46:34:16 Unknown Right? What I like to see next is, okay, if you’re teaching a science lesson, how do you connect each student in a way that that lesson becomes meaningful for them? Right? What do you teach about genetics or what do you teach? Actually, here’s a good one. They’re offering a Spanish afterschool program, and I ask my kids, Do you want to learn Spanish?
00:46:34:16 – 00:46:52:07 Unknown And they’re like, No one. Would we ever need that I of that, right? And I was like, okay, son one day when you’re a professional soccer player playing in Spain, like, how are you going to talk to anyone? You know, like, and he’s like, Fine, I guess Spanish makes sense. I’m like, Yes, But honestly, like, make this connection, right?
00:46:52:08 – 00:47:13:04 Unknown Like you. That’s how you have to think about, like, what you’re learning, right? Brilliant negotiation, by the way. Right? Because like, he’s not going to see that. But I’m like, well, here, let me put it my mentor hat on and here’s why you should care, right? Same way. Here’s why you should care about how you add, right? Like how you subtract, right?
00:47:13:04 – 00:47:37:16 Unknown Like math, especially at this age, is very meaningful, right? Like if someone owes you five cookies, you only get three. You better like, track down the other two, you know, just. Yeah. Any of that, right? Like with science. Like, why are things the way they are right? And if even if you can’t directly correlate, like, okay, we’re learning about volcanoes this week, like, no, like I’ve never really, like, walked on a volcano.
00:47:37:16 – 00:48:09:09 Unknown Like, I don’t know, like what’s under a volcano, you know, whatever. But like, let’s be curious. Let’s see what happens when I mix, you know, this and that together. Right? And in that, there is a relatability of. Yes. Like, it’s good to be curious because that’s when you become open minded and that’s when you start discovering how to make connections between this subject that, you know, you never normally would have asked about with this other thing that you’re extremely curious about.
00:48:09:11 – 00:48:31:10 Unknown one thing that’s nice about technology, despite all the bad things about technology, is we have a Google home. Now, my kids know how to talk to Google Home, and whenever they have a question like, Mom, dad, why is the sky blue? Or, you know, can do this happen or that? I’m like, I don’t know. And I’m going to ask Google.
00:48:31:10 – 00:48:50:01 Unknown I’m like, honestly, like, yes, do that. Because then you can find the answer out and then you can tell me. So, you know, and it’s not it’s like I want to encourage that. I’m not going to have all the answers. I think that’s another good lesson. No one person’s going to have all the answers. I’m your parent, but that doesn’t mean I’m smarter about everything than you.
00:48:50:03 – 00:49:17:20 Unknown There’s stuff you can teach me, too, right? And I think it’s just instilling that like it’s the curiosity and it’s helping guide, you know, the student to make the connections and why are things meaningful. And that’s not meaningful in a direct way. Like why is it important to learn this if it’s just for the sake of curiosity? Like that in itself is like a good skill to have and something you want to cultivate, right?
00:49:17:20 – 00:49:41:23 Unknown And then if it comes something right, then leave it up to the kid to make the connection that, okay, this is something that’s really important for me to know because of this, right? Like, you know, learning Spanish, like, yeah, you know, I can’t expect to always be at an English speaking country. So so I think it’s that I think it’s making things make more meaning.
00:49:41:23 – 00:50:22:12 Unknown Otherwise it’s like, why do you teach it right? And that’s probably a whole nother subject. So yeah, but that’s really important, right? That we become like intermediaries to help them with meaning making and making sure that they connect all of their varied interests and skill sets in a way that is meaningful. And we know like what jobs like as parents and teachers, we know what jobs in fields are, you know, beneficial, more beneficial to society and or not more.
00:50:22:12 – 00:50:45:17 Unknown I don’t want to put a value judgment on that, but we know like generally, right, because we read and we’re cultured and we’re generally knowledgeable about the world of how like, you know, when you’re combining that, that language of you should learn Spanish because you’re not always going to be in an English speaking country. Like that’s a brilliant connection and negotiation, right.
00:50:45:19 – 00:51:17:22 Unknown That you shared with your son. And I think it’s really important that we do kind of change the power dynamic and also the interaction dynamic between and students so that it is student led, the power and agency is on the student, and that we are being mirrors to reflect them and make connections for them because that’s what they don’t have yet.
00:51:18:00 – 00:51:59:07 Unknown And so what is one step that society can take in the right direction to make sure that more people, more children can find the success that you did earlier or more easier? Honestly, it comes down to just ordering what someone says is what they want to pursue as a career, right? Like, don’t laugh at people. Don’t put limits to how high someone can dream, especially when you’re a kid.
00:51:59:09 – 00:52:22:11 Unknown The power of those words from people much older and much more experienced than you, you know, like have so much more impact. And they might not realize it. Right. But for you, that’s like you’ve only live with six years of your life or something, and that’s the response you get for being honest. Why would you be honest about those things?
00:52:22:14 – 00:52:57:14 Unknown Why you tell other people these hopes and dreams, and why would you ever think you can pursue them? Right? So how might we as a society honor like when someone has career clarity, someone knows what they want to do, even if it’s not something they’re going to do forever? Because it’s okay to change your mind, but to have that agency and to be able to confidently say, I want to be whatever that, you know, like the correct response, right?
00:52:57:16 – 00:53:18:18 Unknown Not that there’s right and wrong, but the correct response to that is like, that sounds great. How can I help you? What do you need from me to help you get there? Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes.
00:53:18:20 – 00:53:19:17 Unknown Until next time.