Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Marie, a homeschooling mom of two, about her earliest memories of attending schools in Canada, including at a French private school for kindergarten, and an alternative one for her final year of high school. We also discuss her journey of making the decision to homeschool her children, to ultimately moving to Europe so that one of her sons could pursue soccer, professionally. I ask for her advice on what we can all learn from her experience of collaborating with her sons on their education, and she does not disappoint. Without giving too much away, one key insight is to trust our children.
Here is our edited conversation.
Auto-generated Transcript
00:00:03:07 – 00:00:29:13
Rée
Hi. I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neuro divergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:29:15 – 00:00:57:08
Rée
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems.
00:00:57:10 – 00:01:05:03
Rée
To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more.
00:01:05:03 – 00:01:06:05
Rée
Diverse types of.
00:01:06:05 – 00:01:38:04
Rée
Learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Marie, a homeschooling mom of two, about her earliest memories of attending schools in Canada, including at a French private school for kindergarten and an alternative one for her final year of high school. We also discuss her journey of making the decision to homeschool her children, to ultimately moving to Europe so that one of her sons could pursue soccer professionally.
00:01:38:06 – 00:02:01:15
Rée
I ask for her advice on what we can all learn from her experience of collaborating with her sons on their education, and she does not disappoint. Without giving too much away, one key insight is to trust our children. Here is our edited conversation.
00:02:01:17 – 00:02:32:09
Marie
My parents were immigrants to Canada from the Philippines, so they came to Canada, Toronto, Canada in the 1970s and I think it colored my parent’s point of view because and I don’t know if you remember this, but at the time, or at least in Canada, there were two streams of education. So there was, what they would call the advanced stream, and then the general stream.
00:02:32:11 – 00:02:58:07
Marie
And I think my parents were always afraid, being immigrants, that I would end up in what they called the general stream. So as far as I can remember, I remember them always saying to me, you know, you have to work as hard as anybody else in order to get to the same things. And I just grew up with that idea of always having to work doubly hard.
00:02:58:09 – 00:03:18:20
Marie
So I think that informed the way I looked at education and, you know, they actually put me in a private school so that, you know, they were immigrants. They didn’t have very much, but they tried really, really hard. And they ended up putting me in a private school where I stayed for about six years or so until it just got to be too much like the cost, everything else.
00:03:18:20 – 00:03:30:09
Marie
And we went and I went to a public school. But I always just remember thinking like I had to be doubly as good as everybody else. So that’s how I basically approached everything.
00:03:30:11 – 00:04:01:02
Rée
Wow, that must be. That must have been very challenging. And you know, I ask this because I was someone who was considered, maybe even below General Stream. Just I had, like, unidentified learning disabilities. I had, undiagnosed neurodivergent. I was always kind of like, I kind of got the messaging that, like, I didn’t measure up to my peers.
00:04:01:02 – 00:04:32:08
Rée
And so this is the reason I’m asking the next question. I’m wondering, like, were you able to meet those expectations of, like, getting up to, like, working hard? Were you able to prove that you were, capable of being above, you know, the general stream to the satisfaction of your parents or you know, yourself?
00:04:32:10 – 00:04:53:12
Marie
I, I guess so, it’s a tough question, because I think that I always felt so. This is getting into so many different layers to it’s the idea of, you know, not belonging where you are, like that kind of thing. And, and I think I did okay. I did stay in the advanced stream. It was I did stay there.
00:04:53:13 – 00:05:15:06
Marie
It wasn’t really, I guess, a problem. But did I feel like I measured up? I don’t know, sometimes, no, I don’t think so. I think I always felt like maybe I shouldn’t quite be there, even though my grades reflected the fact that I could be there. Maybe I just personally felt like I don’t know if I belong here.
00:05:15:06 – 00:05:31:08
Marie
This is kind of the the feeling that I’m coming into or this is what I’m coming into, all of this sort of environment and situation with. And so, no, I think I would say that I didn’t quite feel like I was living out, even though on paper and everywhere else it looked like I was. So.
00:05:31:09 – 00:05:37:11
Rée
Yeah. And I mean, I know that there’s a name for that now. It’s like imposter syndrome or like.
00:05:37:13 – 00:05:37:22
Marie
Yes.
00:05:38:03 – 00:06:04:11
Rée
Yeah. Right. And yes, I’m always curious, like when that starts for people, and I think, you know, for some people it starts really early, especially when you’re talking about this piece of like the belonging piece and you’re not sure if you belong there. And sometimes it starts later. And I’m curious, like how that manifested throughout your education journey.
00:06:04:13 – 00:06:05:18
Rée
00:06:06:22 – 00:06:29:21
Marie
Again, like, I think it was funny because after I left my private school, I felt and, you know, as a child, you realize, I mean, I realized what was happening, you know, like, for my parents coming to a new country, going to it was just too much, you know, they had moved us into a, an area where it was very well to do, but we had a very small, you know, that kind of thing.
00:06:29:21 – 00:06:51:05
Marie
Right. And so I never quite felt like I fit in. And even when I did, like, I would just find things that were just it just made me feel a little different. And I think I just carried that through just life. School. I don’t think I ever really got away from it or understood it until much later on in life.
00:06:51:07 – 00:07:16:02
Rée
Yeah. Do you remember any stories or like, memories? From from early days of, like, feeling other or feeling, maybe like less than or like you didn’t have some of the things that maybe the people around you did or, even opportunities and things like that.
00:07:16:04 – 00:07:44:07
Marie
I think so. I think just looking at the sort of economic disparity between like, say my, you know, like my, my, you know, my, my, classmates, for example. I think so. I think, you know, I think my parents did as best I think they did amazing. You know, they came to a new country, they, you know, they tried to do as best as they could for their children that idea that they wanted more for their kids.
00:07:44:07 – 00:08:05:19
Marie
So that’s why they moved, and in doing that, they put us in a situation where we were exposed to so many amazing things. But I could also see the difference between how, you know, I grew up like or where I grew up in, like a smaller home. And it’s it’s these small things, but it’s like a smaller home versus a huge home that my friends would have or something like that.
00:08:05:19 – 00:08:16:06
Marie
And, you know, it’s fine. Everybody’s in different places. But as a child you just you notice that how that makes you feel, you’re not always sure. Right?
00:08:16:06 – 00:08:41:19
Rée
So yeah. Yeah, 100%. I think growing up for me, I was very like so it was a single mother household for the majority of my, my youth. And we were constantly moving and there were constant like father figures in and out of my life, you know, so like, there was just so much going on, and there was so much instability.
00:08:41:19 – 00:09:12:16
Rée
And I never really understood why I felt inferior or why, you know, I felt other and things like that until a lot later, when I understood what, what my childhood actually was like when I’m comparing across systems. So I think that’s why I’m always kind of curious about when, like, people become cognizant of themselves within the larger systems.
00:09:12:18 – 00:09:26:01
Rée
Right. And so, yeah, and so I kind of want to know, like what what kind of subjects did you enjoy or what were you interested in? What were you curious about? What did you pursue?
00:09:26:03 – 00:09:30:12
Marie
So in Lee, well, I really loved languages. I did go to a French private school.
00:09:30:12 – 00:09:31:19
Rée
So the idea.
00:09:31:19 – 00:09:58:15
Marie
Of language was. Yeah. So I loved that. I still love languages. I’m struggling a little bit with the languages that I’m currently trying to learn, but that’s another story. But I love languages. I always have loved languages. Loved English. Just literature writing. I liked math up until maybe grade ten ago. And something happened there, I think, you know, you just.
00:09:58:17 – 00:10:18:15
Marie
So that’s okay. But I do like, even now. And I talk to my son about math. I was still really excited about it. But like, for me, like our my relationship with math sort of went a little downhill from like grade 11 on, but that’s okay. But yes, love the arts. I did a lot of drama in school, so a lot of plays and and music.
00:10:18:19 – 00:10:19:18
Marie
So yeah.
00:10:19:19 – 00:10:44:09
Rée
That’s awesome. And I’m wondering like, I’m really curious about the math piece because I feel like there are a lot of people on my podcast who say that they were either not good at math or they have a story around why they started to dislike math. So I was wondering if you remember why.
00:10:44:11 – 00:11:07:09
Marie
Actually, I used to think that I was a great at love, I loved math, I loved that it was either, you know, right or wrong. It was very, very, you know, black and white. Like, I just I loved it and I honestly, I don’t know what happened. I think it was probably just this sense of getting into, you know, like grade 1011.
00:11:07:11 – 00:11:32:01
Marie
Now that I’m thinking about it, it’s interesting because I can remember the feeling of being uncovered after school in my class, and I could have been just now that, I mean, it could have been just I wasn’t comfortable with the teacher, and I just didn’t feel like this rapport where I could go and ask. And as a child, everybody always said, oh, it’s great to ask questions, but I never wanted to.
00:11:32:02 – 00:11:55:22
Marie
It was it’s kind of a weird thing. Like, I, I just didn’t want to answer. I didn’t want to ask questions. And I had lots of questions, but I didn’t always feel comfortable asking questions. So maybe that was part of it. You know, I’m sort of unpacking as we talk. Yeah. You know, it could have been that because I do know that as I started to not quite get the foundations that we were understanding, it just kind of snowballed from there.
00:11:56:00 – 00:12:20:04
Rée
So I want to ask about this particular piece of not wanting to ask questions, because I know for me, when I was younger, like, that was cultural. Like, you know, in the Korean culture, asking questions kind of is seen as rude or like it goes against like the obedient, like, yes. Yeah, that kind of thing. So there.
00:12:20:06 – 00:12:52:05
Rée
Yeah, there was that from, you know, my culture. And then there was also this part of, feeling inferior. And so, you know, seeing, asking questions as a sign of weakness or showing that I didn’t know as much as my peers. So I was I was always grappling with that. And I’m always curious, like, for others, you know, when they say, I didn’t really like asking questions, I’m wondering if you know why, where that came from.
00:12:52:06 – 00:13:18:18
Marie
Well, when you say the idea of feeling inferior, I’m almost 100% sure that’s it, because I didn’t. I mean, my parents were always really great about, you know, if you have a question, ask questions are good. I remember my dad always saying that. Ask like if you have a question to ask, but I, I think it’s how it made me feel like, gosh, I don’t understand what they’re saying.
00:13:18:20 – 00:13:41:13
Marie
And do I want to sort of expose myself that way? Right. And so I think that’s it. I think that’s it. And still as an adult, sometimes I think to myself, do I want to ask that question? But I realize, you know, everybody learns from everybody else. If I don’t understand the I’m going to ask the question, but it’s taken me a long time to realize that it’s okay that I don’t know.
00:13:41:13 – 00:13:53:14
Marie
And if I don’t know, I’ll ask questions. So it’s it’s a process. But yeah, definitely. I think it’s the inferiority thing, which is, why don’t I understand this and why does everybody else get it?
00:13:53:16 – 00:14:29:02
Rée
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, it’s so crazy because when I actually speak to people who I felt inferior to, you know, growing up, they kind of have a similar, like, you know, I guess they haven’t had imposter syndrome too, like, and so I’m always thinking, like, why is it that, you know, we were self or we’re afraid to expose that we don’t know something when most people don’t really know?
00:14:29:02 – 00:15:04:20
Rée
And, you know, like, right, there’s like a small percentage of people who actually do know everything. But I still have yet to speak with these people. So, yeah, I’m curious, like, I wonder if you got that kind of messaging from, you know, the school system or your teachers or the environment some. How like, can you pinpoint exactly where that might have, like, come from?
00:15:04:22 – 00:15:25:02
Marie
You know, now that I’m thinking about it, it’s because I, I’ve sort of. Okay, I’m sort of just talking about what comes to mind. So when you ask the question, I was thinking, gosh, where would that have come from? And obviously I already knew it. Like the age of eight, that I did not like to ask questions.
00:15:25:02 – 00:16:05:07
Marie
You know, you’re eight years old, you know that you don’t like to ask questions. And so I was just thinking about my education prior to that. And I remember having to do some tutoring, having to do some tutoring in, I believe it was senior kindergarten. What senior? Yes, senior kindergarten. And I guess it was for language. I mean, like, I’m thinking like I went to a French private school and I think it must have just been for like every like overall general, I can’t even remember why I went in for tutoring, but I know that I did, because I can remember coming into the buildings early morning before class, starting and sitting with my teacher,
00:16:05:07 – 00:16:27:20
Marie
having to do some tutoring, obviously in French. But I don’t know if that was, you know, just actual French like the language or French or because all of our education was done in French at the school. But I’m five. I’m thinking about it. I’m five. And I think that part of it is just. Yeah, it’s like going back to your question, like, where did that start?
00:16:27:20 – 00:16:49:02
Marie
And maybe just the idea that, like, already singled out, not quite understanding might have been, you know, I that comes to mind. So it’s, it’s so interesting that you ask that question because I never would have thought of it, that that memory probably would have been completely gone from my, you know, conscious mind up until you just asking that question.
00:16:49:02 – 00:16:50:15
Marie
So maybe there.
00:16:50:15 – 00:17:02:22
Rée
But that is amazing. Like that is some quick thinking though. I have to give you props for that. But oh my goodness, you’re kindergarten.
00:17:03:00 – 00:17:06:17
Marie
Yes, I, I’m thinking about that now. I’m like thinking senior kindergarten.
00:17:06:19 – 00:17:15:12
Rée
And you’re speaking exclusively in French. I mean, what? Yes. Do your parents speak French? Why do they choose French?
00:17:15:14 – 00:17:32:10
Marie
They chose French, I think because in Canada, English, French to be bilingual. And it’s the idea again, you know, is good. You need to you you know, we’re here in Canada. You want to speak both national languages. So. Yeah. I think that.
00:17:32:10 – 00:17:36:08
Rée
You said your parents immigrated from the Philippines. Did?
00:17:36:12 – 00:17:36:22
Marie
Yes.
00:17:36:23 – 00:17:45:13
Rée
Did you also did they speak that language? Did they speak Tagalog as. Do you also speak Tagalog with them?
00:17:45:19 – 00:17:46:06
Marie
Yes.
00:17:46:09 – 00:17:49:04
Rée
Okay. So I speak three languages at least.
00:17:49:08 – 00:18:01:12
Marie
Yes. Yes, I do speak three. Not very well. So if you hear me speak together, some people laugh a little bit. You know, like the accent slightly off, but I. Yes, I can understand. Read it, speak it. So. Yeah.
00:18:01:14 – 00:18:11:18
Rée
Oh my gosh I’m so impressed. And so like oh you know you’re eight years old. You’re speaking Tagalog, you’re speaking English and you’re speaking French.
00:18:11:20 – 00:18:13:11
Marie
Yeah.
00:18:13:13 – 00:18:43:21
Rée
And I’m just like oh my gosh that is a lot of input. An expectation for you to measure up. So yeah, I think I’m getting an understanding, of like, you know, your, your childhood a little bit better, and I, I’m also I’m so glad for you that you grew up enjoying languages and like, the arts and being able to express yourself and things like that.
00:18:43:21 – 00:18:55:22
Rée
And I’m wondering, you know, after high school, what did you sort of explore? What kinds of career paths or occupations did you pursue or hobbies?
00:18:55:22 – 00:19:24:03
Marie
Well, so I did end up, getting a degree in indigenous studies and anthropology. So that’s and, at the time, just going through my degree, I did learn. So I do love languages. I did learn Ojibwa. So there is that I really loved learning like culturally, like about so different cultures. I love that. It’s interesting because I, you’re talking just about education.
00:19:24:05 – 00:19:47:05
Marie
I was just thinking I left my last year of high school to pursue alternative education. So, because I decided, like, I just had a really tough last year where I basically decided I no longer wanted to be in class. And so it was really interesting that my father, who was quite strict at the time, realized that it was something that I needed to do.
00:19:47:05 – 00:20:09:13
Marie
And he let me go to what they called like alternative education. So I literally could finish all of my high school classes, like I’d see my teachers once a week, and then I would just do my work. In the time that I felt like allotted in that entire year, like I could work when I wanted to go see my profs once a week, we would talk, discuss.
00:20:09:18 – 00:20:18:06
Marie
I would go home, figure out the best schedule for me, and then have time outside of that to pursue other interests. So, yes.
00:20:18:06 – 00:20:19:22
Rée
Literally more places.
00:20:20:00 – 00:20:39:22
Marie
But yeah, it was a wonderful year of just just it was a great year. I sort of had gone off on a tangent, but I was just thinking, like, I think that, doing that for my last year of high school was really, really pivotal for me in what I did or what I do now. So, yeah.
00:20:40:00 – 00:21:13:06
Rée
With that, I’m curious behind like the motivation behind that decision, like, was it, I mean, to pursue alternative education in your final year of high school? Was it like, and maybe percentage wise or primary motivations, but like, how much of it was social, like, you were looking for a different, like, crowd? How much of it was like your interests were no longer aligned with the curriculum at your, at your school?
00:21:13:08 – 00:21:35:06
Rée
Or was there, like, some kind of connection to, oh, I need to have this portfolio or do this thing to do the program in anthropology. Like, you know, I’m kind of curious, what were some of the motivations behind your decision to pursue alternative education?
00:21:35:08 – 00:22:00:21
Marie
I think in my last year where I was in traditional high school, so going and going in the classes, I was really, really frustrated. And actually, again, it was like this idea of feeling like I no longer belonged there and I didn’t want to be there. Nothing was happening, really, that would have made me feel that way, other than I just felt like it was the wrong place for me.
00:22:00:23 – 00:22:26:01
Marie
And also, I think how I it sounds incredibly crazy. I just didn’t want to sit in the class for an hour and just like, it just felt like I could be doing something else, which is a strange thing to think. But that’s how I felt. That’s how I felt. And I don’t know how I learned of the option to be able to go to this other school, but it was obviously there.
00:22:26:03 – 00:22:47:16
Marie
And so the final year I ended up going there. But it wasn’t, you know, it’s so interesting because it goes back to, did I feel like I belong there? Did I no longer want to be there? What was it? Because in reality, some of the courses that I took were very similar, you know, like to what I was taking in traditional high school.
00:22:47:16 – 00:23:16:06
Marie
It was just I was given the opportunity to do it differently. So instead of almost like self-paced. Right. So instead of sitting there for an hour and listening to somebody else, and then I literally could talk to my profs day and then just, you know, just take that like get to work, have a discussion with them, go home, and then over the week figure out what I was going to do the work and then come back and do and present it to them.
00:23:16:06 – 00:23:50:02
Rée
So that’s amazing. And I think, like, you know, for someone to be able to achieve that, you must have very good executive function. And the ability to like, you know, understand like time management, and know like when you can work and how to divide your time between tasks. That’s something I did not, develop until like, I don’t even know, like the third year of college.
00:23:50:04 – 00:24:17:08
Rée
Okay. You know, I was always overwhelmed. And so I’m curious, like, is that something that you think was a strength of yours, like, for a long time, or do you know when that ability to that work ethic and that ability to manage your time effectively and efficiently, where did that come from? How was it taught to you or how did you learn it?
00:24:17:10 – 00:24:43:08
Marie
Honestly, I’m not quite sure. So I mean, so I don’t, I, I’m, my father when we were growing up, when I so he there were a couple things you would always say work doubly as hard as everyone else. And he would also say never work for anybody else. Oh, wow. So there were two. There were two very clear messages that I got growing up.
00:24:43:10 – 00:25:12:05
Marie
And I wonder again, like, so interesting. I wonder now too, like, thinking, about that. Like, how did I learn that? How did I, I don’t know, I, when I, I just, I felt like that’s what I needed to do. And I also didn’t want anybody sort of to dictate my time. So I think just putting those two together and then just having the intrinsic motivation to go ahead and work because I didn’t want anybody else dictating my time made sense to me.
00:25:12:05 – 00:25:28:06
Marie
So like, I would just figure that out because I don’t necessarily think that I’m an incredibly organized person or, you know, even, great at time management. But I do understand that there’s certain things that I need to get done. And I have to find the time to do it. So.
00:25:28:08 – 00:25:53:03
Rée
Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I wish I wish I had developed that skill when I was younger. I’m very, I’m a divergent thinker, and I enjoy, like, playing and experimenting. Yeah. Never was a time person. And that’s something that I think, you know, I’ve learned as a result of, like, post-traumatic growth, later in my life.
00:25:53:03 – 00:26:22:07
Rée
But it was not something it’s not like, endemic or not endemic, but it’s not like, it’s not a, a natural strength of mine. And so I always kind of envy or respect and admire people who are able to, to do that. And so yeah, I’m kind of like now kind of understanding what kind of student you were and what kind of, education, what kind of journey you went through education.
00:26:22:07 – 00:26:49:01
Rée
And so I kind of want to know, a little bit about how that education started to apply, you know, in your career and, you know, in your parenting. And also, I know that you and your family have moved, to a country, for your son, right, to pursue his passions in his goals.
00:26:49:01 – 00:27:11:12
Rée
So I kind of want to get into that a little bit. And so, you know, thank you for sharing, your own, like, education journey. And I want to know how that applies to now. Yeah, to your family. And so when you had children, because I know you have at least two children, I’m.
00:27:11:12 – 00:27:12:09
Marie
Your two boys. Yeah.
00:27:12:09 – 00:27:17:14
Rée
Two point here. Yeah. How old are they?
00:27:17:16 – 00:27:24:20
Marie
Most of my oldest is 15, and my and, my youngest is eight. Oh, so we’re seven years between them.
00:27:24:22 – 00:28:02:08
Rée
Yeah. And so, you know, I heard, that you and your family made the decision to move to another country, to follow your sons, you know, dreams and goals and wishes. And I’m curious, like, what were some of the things that you wanted to do, for your children? In terms of their education, was there something that you knew, like a North Star or a guiding principle of how you wanted to educate them?
00:28:02:10 – 00:28:39:18
Marie
So that’s, I, I guess I would say no, just start with. No. I so my, my children are homeschooled, and, and they have always been homeschooled. Both of them. So. But we came to homeschooling accidentally. Accidentally. Meaning, like I had zero plans of ever homeschooling them. You know, even for me going to alternative school.
00:28:39:18 – 00:29:04:02
Marie
And just to mention, I actually finished my university degree through distance education. I took my last two years and I ended up pursuing it that way also, because I realized that I did a summer school course and realized that the program where I did that did the the summer school program was better for my degree, and I could actually pursue my degree that way.
00:29:04:02 – 00:29:28:12
Marie
And it really fit into this idea of, wow, like, I can again, you know, like talk with my professors, but then also really organize my own time around, like what I really felt I wanted to engage in, in life, you know, in other areas. So, but like, it’s so strange because I never really thought about it for my children that way.
00:29:28:12 – 00:29:51:21
Marie
Like, by the time my son was almost ready to go to school, my husband and I were on the board of directors of an IB school that was starting up in our area, and I loved that idea of him going there, because I did feel like they would allow him to, like, think not bigger, just be a little freer with him.
00:29:51:23 – 00:30:12:08
Marie
And I did actually. And and I did like we did other things like I sent him to Montessori. Like I loved the idea of him experiencing the world at his level. Right. Versus like and and things like that. So he did do that. But by the time he was ready to go into primary, he actually got very, very sick.
00:30:12:10 – 00:30:47:19
Marie
So he, it was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder. And it was so rare, like we ended up having to go to the States to get him treatment. Like it was just something in Canada that we couldn’t find the right specialists. So that was very challenging for us. And he was four at the time. And where we’re from, primary starts at the age of five, and I just didn’t feel comfortable sending him like I just it was so touch and go every single day that I thought, I can’t send him.
00:30:47:19 – 00:31:19:15
Marie
And that’s when we started exploring the idea of having him home with us and educating him that way, until we felt that he was healthy enough to go to school to literally go to school. And it’s so interesting because as I started to explore that world and talk to other, you know, because there’s kind of a there’s a little, I think at least when I started, there’s like a stigma of like what homeschooling is or these kids not socialized like, who do they talk to, like all of these things.
00:31:19:17 – 00:31:48:20
Marie
And, so I was slightly apprehensive and that for me was like me being naive, not really understanding, you know, homeschooling. And there are so many different ways of homeschooling too, like, there’s so many different ways. But I really felt because of his health issues, he needed to be home with us. So I just we just started exploring all of these things and like, I just thought, wow, like, what a great way to just be able to spend this first year.
00:31:48:20 – 00:32:20:19
Marie
Yes. Like I think I can educate him. I like, oh, I can educate him. So let’s just try and, he, he did so well like, he, he thrived. Like. And what I loved about it too is he was always just so eager. I think part of that is his own personality. But he was also to, like, a very, I don’t know, like, just looking back at how well he might have done in the school system, if that makes any sense.
00:32:20:21 – 00:32:42:18
Marie
And now he’s like, you know, but everybody was always like, oh, like, who is he going to socialize with? He won’t know any children. So I actually did go out of my way to like, find other opportunities outside of that for him. But I loved that if he didn’t get something, for example, I could just figure out how he got it, you know what I mean?
00:32:42:18 – 00:33:04:22
Marie
Like, just figure out how he would think about it and then we could change. And it was very quick and very dynamic. But there was always this like feedback and like being able to adjust and, and so that’s kind of how it started. And I loved the idea that after we also did, I guess, what you would call a traditional school, there was so much time for other stuff, right?
00:33:05:00 – 00:33:33:20
Marie
Which I noticed too in my own education, like doing that differently, like, yeah, there’s so much time for other stuff. So it was interesting. And we always worked with the idea that every year we would reevaluate. So and see if it still worked for him, and if he did, we would continue. And if it didn’t, or at any point he wanted to go to traditional school, he could go, but he hasn’t.
00:33:33:21 – 00:33:37:08
Marie
So that’s just kind of where we are. That’s a nice.
00:33:37:09 – 00:33:52:20
Rée
Thing. And so but you guys now moved yeah. Away from that. And so, how how did that come about?
00:33:52:22 – 00:33:55:01
Marie
The move itself or.
00:33:55:01 – 00:34:14:17
Rée
Yeah, like the move itself or. I mean, yeah, the move from it’s like in terms of the education part, like, how did you go from, at keeping him at home and then moving to an entirely different country and pursuing, you know, what he’s pursuing now?
00:34:14:18 – 00:34:41:11
Marie
So it’s it’s interesting because, part of the ease of moving to a completely different country is the way, I guess we’ve set up our life. So, my husband and I, we both work from home, so. And we always have. We’ve actually never had what you’d call a traditional job. So after, you know, pursuing, in university, it was sort of the time where the internet started to come in.
00:34:41:11 – 00:35:10:03
Marie
I, I date myself, you know, but that’s like when it started and the idea that people were just creating income, using the it just it really was very fascinating to us. And as university students finishing a degree like distance education and realizing, wow, can I actually continue what I’m doing, but take it into like work. So I’ve studied this way for a number of years.
00:35:10:03 – 00:35:30:23
Marie
Can I actually do it but work this way? And so it was like the idea of how to do that. And so we were obviously able to figure that out. And then again, like our children being homeschooled. So the idea we had always wanted to move to Europe at some point, my husband and my kids are all EU citizens.
00:35:30:23 – 00:36:01:17
Marie
So that move was easy also. Yes. So there wasn’t a lot of, you know, for a taper or anything like that was an easy job for us to do. But because my son played soccer, he was told when he was 11 that he, he’s a very good soccer player. He was. And they were he was told by his academy director if he wanted to pursue it, that it would be a good idea to move, to see and to do it before the age of 13.
00:36:01:17 – 00:36:27:21
Marie
But as it happens, Covid hit like all of these things happened and, right before, we were going to take him, he was 11 and we were going to go to Amsterdam, and then he fractured his patella. So that was out. And then Covid hit. So it was like two years really of nothing. Right. So you do reevaluate things wholesale.
00:36:28:00 – 00:36:51:21
Marie
Like at that point you think okay. And he he just has this very strong desire to play and to pursue. And because my husband and I can facilitate that and we also had this sort of life plan to potentially move at some point, you just it made it easy for us to go. And we’re kind of the people that go, okay, fine, how do we make this happen?
00:36:51:23 – 00:37:28:22
Marie
And all the other little parts we’ll figure out along the way, which is basically what we did. So, yeah. So that’s how we did the move. And then education wise, it’s you know, he does great. He is in this this like online hybrid program. So, like, on campus, off campus. But he’s doing great. It is, by the end of it, whether he stays here or he goes back to North America, he will, he’s working to be NCAA eligible.
00:37:28:22 – 00:37:49:02
Marie
So, like Division one schools. So we’re working with all of that. But he’s he’s doing great. He’s like, he loves it. He’s, met all these wonderful people. He’s like the managing editor of his yearbook. He’s on debate club. He’s doing fantastic. So, yeah, he loves it.
00:37:49:04 – 00:38:17:17
Rée
That’s really a good thing. So, like, there is a really big, you know. Oh, you were talking about Covid. And I think during Covid, that’s kind of when a lot of people, a lot of parents and teachers and, you know, students realized, the limitations of, schooling. And then also the, what school was doing.
00:38:17:18 – 00:38:49:09
Rée
Right. And so, like the, the micro schooling movement sort of popped up and like unschooling movements popped up and just all these alternative methods, to education, to traditional, conventional, public school mass education schooling systems, just started to spread all over the place. And I think people are starting to reevaluate, like, oh, this is not the only option.
00:38:49:12 – 00:39:36:11
Rée
And, you know, there’s they’re finding ways to tailor that to fit their lifestyle. And it kind of seems like there were so many threads, that were in place for you, before Covid even started, where that, like, the, the homeschooling thing was, already, you know, already on your radar. And there were, like the EU citizenship and you wanting to move to Europe and like, all of these parts have already were already in play for you, that it almost felt seamless.
00:39:36:12 – 00:40:03:23
Rée
And like you said, you did probably had to figure things out on the way, but, you made that decision and you went for it. And so I’m kind of curious, like looking back on the journey that you took, for your son, to be able to become an pursue soccer. There were so many things that you were doing, that felt like you were.
00:40:04:01 – 00:40:42:09
Rée
And this kind of sounds ridiculous when I see it like this. But you kind of are treating him like an equal person in your household. And I think, like I say, that that sounds ridiculous because I think when parents hear this, it’s like, but I think, you know, like, I don’t know if, you know, the anecdote of, like, Taylor Swift, and like her, her family, she told them that she wants to sing, and so they moved to Nashville for her.
00:40:42:09 – 00:41:10:16
Rée
Right. And that’s kind of like a uncanny thing, I think. You know, it’s not something that, like, like, children sort of have, like, they’re at the bottom of the totem pole, so to speak, in many ways, like, yeah, parent. Right. Like parents don’t just change their entire lives for their children. Like, I think you know what I mean.
00:41:10:18 – 00:41:11:19
Marie
And so. Yeah.
00:41:12:00 – 00:41:39:18
Rée
Yeah. And so, like, looking back at that journey that you did, you know, you’ve given him that equal say of like, hey, your dreams matter and, like, we’re going to do this for you because this is, I mean, also something that you guys also were planning and doing, but, you know, like, it just takes another level to actually execute and go with that plan.
00:41:39:20 – 00:42:13:21
Rée
And so my question really is looking back at all the things that you had done, to sort of pursue this path, for your son and also, all of those, things aligned for you to be able to do that. What do you think we like? People who are kind of considering, like unschooling or homeschooling or alternative schooling.
00:42:13:23 – 00:42:33:11
Rée
What can we learn from how you were able to do that? Like, internally, and say like, this is something that is, worth doing. I don’t know if that question makes sense.
00:42:33:13 – 00:42:56:00
Marie
It does. I guess there’s so many different parts. So I guess part of the question is, how did we or how how do we how did we figure out that it was worth it to do? Yeah, maybe. I think, we made a decision to do it. I mean, like I said, sort of at the beginning, it was almost like we were forced into it.
00:42:56:00 – 00:43:28:20
Marie
It was like, gosh, I have no other choice. Other than I just don’t feel comfortable sending him to school. That really scares me. I feel like he’s safer with me as we navigate his health, and then and then it turning into almost like, I think really it was the best thing that could have happened to him. Like, I look at him so he’s 15 years old and I feel like he has a very good sense of who he is, what he likes.
00:43:28:22 – 00:43:50:08
Marie
You know, it’s so funny. Like he often does it. He’s super, he’s very in tune with people, but like, if he gets, you know, for example, like, I don’t know, I was going to say if somebody says something to them that is not, you know, like if they’re teasing or whatever, everybody plays for, you know, like friends.
00:43:50:08 – 00:44:32:00
Marie
What he really doesn’t seem to fall for any of that sort of peer pressure meaning, whereas like me, like if I, you know, when I was a teenager, like, it would have devastated me, really. Like, I it was so important what everybody else thought of me. Right. But I find that he has such a strong sense of self and obviously certain things bug him, but he’s able to emotionally navigate that in a way that I don’t know if he would have been able to have had he not had so much time to figure out like, who he is, what he likes as a person.
00:44:32:02 – 00:44:55:06
Marie
You know, like, I know when I was younger, I used to think, gosh, like, I’m just going to go out and find myself after, like, you know, that idea of finding yourself like when you’re in your 20s or, you know, after you have you finally get a little time for yourself? And I realized in this time where he’s had to, you know, be educated, but also have this time to like just being his childhood.
00:44:55:06 – 00:45:17:14
Marie
Just discover what he loves. Like, I don’t know where you get that time anyplace else in life other than then, like, you know, very little responsibility, you know, just being able to just. Be, you know, like, just discover, I don’t know, but, I think I’ve just completely forgotten the question and.
00:45:17:16 – 00:45:18:02
Rée
Go.
00:45:18:02 – 00:45:18:22
Marie
Somewhere.
00:45:19:00 – 00:45:22:22
Rée
This that’s actually really brilliant.
00:45:23:00 – 00:45:45:06
Marie
But. Oh, okay. So how did I know it was worth it? So then again, it was that idea of reevaluating every year. Is this working for him? You know, like, is this working? Do we feel. And I am a, I’m a homeschooler that’s followed curriculum. So like, I didn’t follow a specific curriculum, but I picked like, I picked, I thought like, oh, this this looks good.
00:45:45:07 – 00:46:13:22
Marie
And this works for him. That that works for him. We’ll use that. You know, like I went through so many math curriculums that didn’t work and just, just whatever, but I just wanted to find something that worked for him. So it was always about constantly, reevaluating and just seeing if he was happy, like always checking in with him, asking him, like, and him just volunteering to like I think also like we’re in such, you know, like we’re together a lot at the time.
00:46:13:22 – 00:46:40:15
Marie
Like we just have this really easy, relationship. So just always checking in and I do feel like it, it, it worked for him and it was worth it. But there are times too, obviously, that you feel like, am I doing the right thing? Like, should he, you know, like, should he be like in class? Like, is he missing out all of these things that you think about?
00:46:40:17 – 00:46:59:07
Marie
But I think your child will tell you too. I think that there because we do have friends who homeschool their children, and at some point they wanted to go to high school or they wanted to go into junior high. So I think it just depends on the child. And it’s so interesting too. But like my second is so different than my first.
00:46:59:08 – 00:47:18:02
Marie
So. Right, you know, and that journey is completely different also. And what worked for my first didn’t necessarily work for my second. And I thought, what is going on here? Like this is different, but they’re different children, right. They’re two different humans. So of course it’s not gonna work even if they’re from the same parents.
00:47:18:02 – 00:47:51:04
Rée
So yeah. No for sure. Yeah. And you know, something that I asked, a guest in, in season one, was about like, how do we design assist art? That works for every child or for every student? In a way that. Gives them the opportunities that allows them to shine, but also gives them that, like, well-rounded ness.
00:47:51:06 – 00:48:19:05
Rée
That that we don’t feel like they’re missing out on what is important for, for, you know, either their time or, you know, things like that. And so I’m curious, like looking back at the decisions you’ve made, not only for your own education, but also your son’s education. What are some of those things that you think,
00:48:19:07 – 00:48:55:05
Rée
That we should all be doing? Like, what do you think would be like the new assortment of, like, macronutrients or like, you know, core classes or core subjects that you think that everybody should be learning and and do you think, like, you know, I’m assuming, but, based on what we briefly chatted about, like the, the classes that you enjoyed and things like that, they’re very compartmentalized, right?
00:48:55:05 – 00:49:23:20
Rée
Like, we have art class and we have math class and with history and language and things like that. And so I’m wondering, would you keep them compartmentalized as such? And if if so, would you keep the same subjects as is or is there something that you would do differently in a way that they’re either integrated or updated for?
00:49:23:22 – 00:49:33:18
Rée
You know, the jobs that you think we’re going to need within the 10 to 20 years from now.
00:49:33:20 – 00:50:05:00
Marie
That’s such a tough question. That’s such a tough question. I don’t know. When I look at my son’s education, I did it was relatively I mean, we homeschooled, but it was relatively compartmentalized like we did English and we did, you know, we did language, we did math, but within, let’s say, English, for example. When he was 11, my son started a podcast.
00:50:05:02 – 00:50:32:06
Marie
So and this was actually in Covid, so and he so he really married the love of soccer with a podcast. And so he was actually a ball retriever for the professional, soccer team in our city. So he had some access to some of these professional players. And so what he did is when Covid started, there was no season, right?
00:50:32:11 – 00:51:06:02
Marie
But everything sort of stopped. And he realized that he could interview or he didn’t realize this. He he said to me, do you think this would work? And I was like, sure, that’s a great idea. So he ended up start. He ended up interviewing, soccer players in the professional league. I mean, yeah, in Canada. And he, we used for me that was part of there was creative writing there.
00:51:06:02 – 00:51:34:15
Marie
There was interviewing skills. There was like, know again, like coming up with questions, doing research, figuring out about their, you know, their his like their past, all of that. And I felt that was like an excellent project within the scope of, say, English, but also pursuing something that he loved, which is like intrinsic motivation to learn to do so.
00:51:34:17 – 00:52:18:09
Marie
I thought it was great. He ended up becoming the youngest reporter for the Canadian Premier League, but it was amazing. But in that, I think and as he continues in high school, a lot of his education is also like that too. Like he can pursue that as, so I guess to answer your question, technically, I think that you could keep like within scope, but I think just the idea of being more open to the ideas that the children bring also in like certain subjects, you know, just being, well, English, it works like, but, you know, letting them pursue something that they’re really interested with in that subject, I don’t know, I mean,
00:52:18:09 – 00:52:44:22
Marie
that worked for us and I, I love that because I feel like the more the first of all, I always want him to want to learn, you know, like always having that eagerness to learn something else. But, I feel like you just learn better when you’re interested. You just learn better when you’re interested. So in terms of, you know, how I don’t know, I guess, like listening to kids, I don’t know.
00:52:45:00 – 00:53:17:04
Marie
It’s such a tough question. And how do you do that? Like, how do you actually do that. And yeah, how do you do that. It’s it’s a tough question I don’t know. And in terms of just like life, like, sure. You know, as I was growing up, I wish like in school there were more things like life skill, things like, you know, you know, things like money or taxes or anything, just these things that you actually have to deal with in life.
00:53:17:04 – 00:53:47:19
Marie
Like these are things that you need to deal with. I think, like if, I don’t know, and like now to social media marketing, I see a lot of people learning about that. But I remember actually my husband saying one thing to me ever, even before we ever had any children, he said, like, if he could ever teach like one thing, he would love to teach his children is the idea of how to, like, present themselves like in the world, because that’s a really tough thing to do.
00:53:47:21 – 00:53:58:07
Marie
And yet it’s also really important. And like, how do you do that? So I don’t know, I remember him saying things like that. So I don’t know. There’s so much I’m sorry. I’m not answering your question.
00:53:58:08 – 00:54:28:23
Rée
No, you don’t understand. These are brilliant. And I definitely think you did answer the questions. And I kind of wanted to follow up with you on the things because, you know, the ideas that I would like to, sort of involve or. I mean, what I would like to do with my daughter really is, to have a podcast curriculum.
00:54:28:23 – 00:55:00:12
Rée
Right. And to actually give her, like, financial literacy skills by having, like, having her start her own company. Okay. And also, like, what your husband is saying, it’s brilliant of, like, presenting yourself in, like, the social media marketing of, like developing an audience. And, yeah, like all of those things I think are insanely important for the world that exists today.
00:55:00:12 – 00:55:44:02
Rée
And, with technology and AI and so these things changing, I think those will be huge assets, to our young people, as they lead their lives forward. So I guess, like my final question to you really is when you look back at all of the, the things that you did that you didn’t have support for, whether it was like, you know, for me definitely was like making money and doing taxes, that was such a big, crazy culture shock for me.
00:55:44:04 – 00:56:07:13
Rée
And, so things like that or anything outside of that, I’m curious if there was anything that you wish you could have, have had more support for or support for, when you were growing up? What would that have been?
00:56:07:15 – 00:56:15:23
Marie
When I was growing up,
00:56:16:01 – 00:56:20:07
Marie
00:56:20:09 – 00:56:44:17
Marie
I think, Oh, gosh. Certain. I think my parents are great, but there’s so many things, you know? I mean, you know, they let me see. I think. And I’m struggling because I don’t even know how to say it. I think it would have been.
00:56:44:19 – 00:57:10:18
Marie
I think we’re going back to, like, the idea of belonging again. So somebody said something to me not too long ago. Probably a year ago, I was talking to another lady, and she said to me that one day she realized that, like she wherever she is, is where she belongs. And like, it seems like such a simple statement.
00:57:10:19 – 00:57:40:20
Marie
But when you realize the like the gravity of what she’s actually saying, it’s, I don’t know, it just it just, I don’t know, it change things for me. But I think that growing up, if I had had I don’t know, I think it’s just maybe being it’s such a tough thing because when I look at my kids, like I always want them to feel, you can’t always make them feel secure.
00:57:40:20 – 00:58:06:19
Marie
But I mean, like, I want them to have a really good sense of self. And again, like if things don’t go their way to be able to navigate that, like in, like to really be able to reflect on that and navigate that and come out on the other end seeing that, you know, there’s something to learn from that experience, but they also don’t have to hold on to it and they can move forward.
00:58:06:19 – 00:58:40:01
Marie
So, I don’t know, I think it would have been like maybe more emotional. It’s hard to say because my parents were there emotionally, but at the same time, like, I still there were so many things, I think that you just, I don’t know, I’m sorry. Like, I don’t know, I’m thinking to myself, like, what is it? But I where would I have like, yeah, maybe just like, yeah, the idea of gosh, such a tough questions like, yeah, yeah.
00:58:40:01 – 00:58:59:23
Marie
And I, I can’t seem to articulate it properly, but it’s, I don’t know what that is. It’s just the idea of, I guess, just feeling okay where you are and. I don’t know, I don’t know why I can’t. It’s so funny. I can’t even articulate it. But I know what it feels like.
00:59:00:01 – 00:59:04:14
Rée
Yeah. That feeling of, like you are enough.
00:59:04:16 – 00:59:18:21
Marie
Yes. It’s probably. Yeah, maybe that’s what it is because I’m struggling with, like, do I feel like kind of. But yes, maybe that’s what it is. You are enough. You’re always enough even. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.
00:59:18:23 – 00:59:36:18
Rée
Well, I think just because that’s something I’ve always struggled with and. Yeah, I think it’s a constant something that I tell myself every day. I have to tell myself everyday you are enough. Like. Right. Yeah. So I was like, I wonder if this.
00:59:36:18 – 01:00:06:07
Marie
Is what choose me. I think that, yeah, it is. I think that’s it. Because like, I again, like I’m referring to my son, but I, I look at him and he doesn’t seem to struggle with that. And not to say that that’s us or anything else, but like somewhere I feel along the way he learned that, and yeah, something that still, you know, I’m learning and.
01:00:06:09 – 01:00:15:02
Marie
Yeah, just yeah, like you said, constant reminder, having to learn.
01:00:15:04 – 01:00:24:02
Rée
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.