Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Sun, an entrepreneur and storyteller, about his education journey from Korea to the US, California to New York, and engineering to film school. We talk about his socio-emotional development from being the good kid to eventually overcorrecting to protect himself from the bullies. We also discuss what it means to be a good storyteller, and why vulnerability is the key to successful marketing—not only in business, but in life and relationships, especially. There are lots of insights in our conversation, not only about how to own your story, but also about how to be a good friend. And on that note, I’d like to credit and thank Sun for yelling at me last year to finally start this podcast I’d been “planning” for years.
Here’s our edited conversation—and a warning, there’s a healthy amount of cursing in this episode.
Auto-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:04:01 – 00:00:27:21
Speaker 1
Hi. I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. And the decades following. I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:27:23 – 00:00:51:02
Speaker 1
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:51:04 – 00:01:17:10
Speaker 1
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers, with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with sun, an entrepreneur and storyteller, about his education journey from Korea to the US, California to New York.
00:01:17:16 – 00:01:46:14
Speaker 1
An engineering to film school. We talk about his socio emotional development, from being the good kid to eventually overcorrecting to protect himself from the bullies. We also discuss what it means to be a good storyteller and why vulnerability is the key to successful marketing, not only in business, but in life and relationships especially. There are lots of insights in our conversation, not only about how to own your story, but also about how to be a good friend.
00:01:46:16 – 00:02:05:09
Speaker 1
And on that note, I’d like to credit and thank sun for yelling at me last year to finally start this podcast I’ve been planning for years. Here’s our edited conversation and a warning. There’s a healthy amount of cursing in the.
00:02:05:11 – 00:02:32:08
Speaker 2
Like, I always grew up thinking I’m like, I’m a weirdo. Because, like, I would notice everything around me and, well, one of the things that I picked up is that the cool kids don’t do that. All the cool kids in school, they don’t notice anything, right? They like it’s like, I. I might in my childhood, I thought that being cool meant, oh, I got to dismiss everything.
00:02:32:08 – 00:02:51:09
Speaker 2
Like, oh, I don’t know. I don’t know that. Oh, I don’t know this. Right. Like, so I, I pretended like I didn’t know a lot of things just so that I can fit in and be cool, right? Because, like, but, you know, it’s like that post that I posted about, like, geeks. Geeks are the ones that are really passionate, right?
00:02:51:09 – 00:02:51:20
Speaker 2
They’re really.
00:02:51:20 – 00:02:52:15
Speaker 3
Like.
00:02:52:17 – 00:03:08:04
Speaker 2
Nit picky about everything. And so it, I feel like I kind of like wore a mask for like the first half of my life trying to pretend like I’m dumber than I what I really was. I don’t know if that makes sense.
00:03:08:06 – 00:03:11:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Where did that come from, do you think?
00:03:11:06 – 00:03:35:10
Speaker 2
Just looking at other kids and like when I noticed that all the cool kids were like, you know, they’re like, oh, I don’t care. I don’t know, like that kind of attitude. Like. And that was even like when I was really young, I noticed that I’m like, am I the weirdo for noticing every little thing and like, overthinking every little thing because other kids didn’t seem to do that.
00:03:35:12 – 00:04:00:22
Speaker 2
So yeah. And then like, you know, you said about being like an immigrant child, like when I first came to the US, I was like 11, 12. I came here in the sixth grade and it was like a complete cultural culture shock. So that’s that’s like another area where in Korea I never had, like really low self-esteem.
00:04:01:00 – 00:04:12:14
Speaker 2
But that happened when I moved to the US. Just like I never got bullied in Korea. And then I started getting bullied when I came here because I’m Asian. So.
00:04:12:16 – 00:04:15:09
Speaker 3
You know.
00:04:15:11 – 00:04:25:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And as you’re talking, it’s kind of funny because right now I’m in South Korea and you’re in the United States, but I was born there, and you’re born here. And so,
00:04:25:22 – 00:04:26:08
Speaker 2
What was.
00:04:26:08 – 00:04:31:02
Speaker 1
That? That was really interesting. Like going.
00:04:31:04 – 00:04:31:10
Speaker 2
Like.
00:04:31:11 – 00:05:11:01
Speaker 1
Moving here. So I moved here when I was in college for the first time. And, you know, I was always like, oh, I, I felt really other and growing up in America and like you, I overthought everything. I was really scared to, like, say what I really felt. I was really scared of not fitting in. And so when I knew that I would come to South Korea, I was like, okay, I’m finally going to embrace my culture that I was ashamed to practice.
00:05:11:03 – 00:05:15:21
Speaker 1
But then when I came here, I was like, even more of an alien because I didn’t.
00:05:15:23 – 00:05:16:15
Speaker 3
That’s.
00:05:16:17 – 00:05:19:20
Speaker 1
I didn’t fit the beauty standards. Wait, wait.
00:05:19:22 – 00:05:22:04
Speaker 2
That’s how I felt when I. When I was in Korea.
00:05:22:08 – 00:05:24:21
Speaker 1
Oh, really? You felt like an alien here?
00:05:24:23 – 00:05:45:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. So. So it was weird because. Yeah, that. That’s why I think that, like, ethnicity has nothing to do with your identity. Like, because when I was, when I, when I visited Korea, I didn’t feel like, oh, these are my people. Like, I felt more out of place. And then as soon as I saw a white guy, I was like.
00:05:45:21 – 00:05:50:14
Speaker 3
Yo, I got I felt more connected to that. Yes.
00:05:50:16 – 00:06:01:13
Speaker 1
I so can relate to that because like, when I first started hearing English, I was like, oh my gosh, I’m one of you. Even though I don’t look like you, I’m one of you. I totally get that.
00:06:01:13 – 00:06:04:00
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:06:04:01 – 00:06:06:02
Speaker 1
That’s so funny.
00:06:06:04 – 00:06:18:11
Speaker 2
I guess, like me, I don’t know, I guess maybe that’s kind of not feeling like you’re fitting in is maybe like a maybe that’s like a universal thing. It doesn’t matter where you live or who you are.
00:06:18:13 – 00:06:43:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. For sure. And so I kind of want to understand, like the personality, like the, the development of your personality. And I think it sometimes I think it starts with like the expectations that our parents have of us, and maybe even, like, you know, our teachers. So I’m wondering, like, what was your parent’s definition of success in, in the home for you, like growing up?
00:06:43:09 – 00:06:53:14
Speaker 1
Like what kind of expectations that they have for you? Was it different from like, what kind of expectations they had of your sister? Like, can you picture.
00:06:53:14 – 00:07:03:05
Speaker 2
You know what? My parents are actually not very the the typical like stereotypical Korean parents. So they’re not.
00:07:03:10 – 00:07:06:08
Speaker 3
Oh like they.
00:07:06:10 – 00:07:26:15
Speaker 2
They weren’t really like telling, like telling us to become a lawyer or a doctor or that whole thing. I mean, I mean, they want us to have a safe job, but like that, like in my family, I think that was kind of. I think my parents always wanted me to become an engineer. Like, in their mind, that was a saved up.
00:07:26:17 – 00:07:28:14
Speaker 2
I don’t even think they know what that means.
00:07:28:16 – 00:07:32:00
Speaker 3
But. You know, out of it.
00:07:32:00 – 00:07:48:16
Speaker 2
I think they just think that that’s like I say, like, if you if you work in tech or if, you know, if you’re good in tech, that it’s a safe job. My grandparents always thought that it was telling us to get a government job because that’s like the safest job you pension and all of that. I’m like, oh my gosh.
00:07:48:17 – 00:07:55:02
Speaker 2
Like now, now looking back, I’m like, Holy shit. Like I would I can never survive in the government, right?
00:07:55:04 – 00:07:55:23
Speaker 3
It’s like the total.
00:07:55:23 – 00:08:05:15
Speaker 2
Opposite of my personality. My parents, their number one thing was always education.
00:08:05:17 – 00:08:07:01
Speaker 4
So,
00:08:07:03 – 00:08:38:08
Speaker 2
They would not spend like, even, you know, $10 to buy me toys, but they’ll they’ll spend $2,000 a month sending me and my sister to city school like, things like that. Right. So I guess maybe that’s why I felt like I never had that, like, feeling of, like, growing up poor, even though we were not well-off. Because, like, you know, I see that my parents are spending money on education and like, like I took I mean, this this is probably typical Korean, but I took every class under the sun, like growing up.
00:08:38:11 – 00:09:18:20
Speaker 2
I’ve done, you know, piloting, you know, like taekwondo, ballet, everything like art, calligraphy, like everything you can possibly think of, like, I’ve done it. I think one way to answer your question. I think one of the things that I’m realizing now, actually, during this conversation is when I was young, really young like before element like early elementary school, before that, I think I was like more like myself now and then, like throughout my life, I, I feel like I’ve been kind of living a lie.
00:09:18:22 – 00:09:43:14
Speaker 2
And then like in the in my 30s, I started to go back to my because like, for example, when I was young, I was curious about everything. I was very, you know, like people like me because, you know, I wasn’t I wasn’t like an asshole. And, you know, I was like, really, really good, good person, good person.
00:09:43:14 – 00:10:10:04
Speaker 2
Like, like, if I look back right now at, like a 5 or 6 year old son, I’m like, oh, that’s a really good person, right? But then I think throughout my life I kind of became an asshole. And I kind of, you know what I mean? Especially when I started my business and then like, I had to, you know, throughout in the last like ten years, I had to like, learn how to go back to my old, like, child self.
00:10:10:06 – 00:10:42:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. I’m kind of curious like that about that transition a little bit. So, you know, I heard on, Mitzi’s podcast on lessons, about you moving to the United States when you were in the sixth grade. And, to Torrance. Right. In California. Yeah. And, you’re like one of three Asian people, I think for a little while before ultimately there being, like you being one of 30 or something before you graduated.
00:10:42:20 – 00:11:13:07
Speaker 1
And so I was wondering, like, so my husband actually moved to the United States when he was ten. He was born in Korea. And, you know, there was like a lot of difference because he didn’t speak English. He was kind of learning a little bit of English from his aunt, who was a teacher here. But, you know, he just went in fresh and he didn’t really have, like, roots in the country.
00:11:13:09 – 00:11:36:12
Speaker 1
And so he talks about how it was a little bit of, like, difficult, like transitioning. And so, I was kind of curious for you, like, you know, was it difficult making friends? What were some, like, efforts that your parents made to sort of, like, socialize you or acclimate you into a new country?
00:11:36:14 – 00:11:53:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was, you know, like I went in when I first moved here. I wasn’t scared at all. I was actually really excited. Even though I don’t speak the language. I don’t know that these people looked totally different from me, but I was just excited. Even, like the first day of school, I was, like, excited to go to school.
00:11:53:22 – 00:11:59:15
Speaker 2
And then all of that vanished when I actually started going to school, like, because I started getting bullied and stuff like.
00:11:59:15 – 00:12:02:04
Speaker 3
That, I know.
00:12:02:06 – 00:12:05:02
Speaker 2
But.
00:12:05:04 – 00:12:07:02
Speaker 1
What were you like, bullied for, number one?
00:12:07:02 – 00:12:26:14
Speaker 2
Because I don’t speak English. So that’s like the biggest thing. And then, I don’t know, it was like. Little things like, you know, for example, like one, like, I remember this one kid, like, you know, kids are so mean.
00:12:26:16 – 00:12:30:21
Speaker 3
Know, like, Oh, my God, I don’t know if, like, anyone listening, like.
00:12:30:23 – 00:12:35:12
Speaker 2
Try to go back to your, like, junior high and think about it like they’re so mean, right?
00:12:35:13 – 00:12:36:11
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:12:36:13 – 00:12:55:23
Speaker 2
Like, you know, they they’ll they’ll steal my pencil and then like, they’ll if I try to like, get it from them, they’ll like throw it at somebody else like, so they’ll catch it and you know that or like, you know how they do it with the ball. Yeah. That thing. And like I remember like when that happened. Like just me just started crying and it wasn’t even because, like, I care about the pencil.
00:12:56:01 – 00:13:11:03
Speaker 2
Pencil. Right. It was, it was like just I just felt like powerless and pathetic. And it was like an emotional thing that I guess made me cry. And then when they saw me cry, like they started making obviously making.
00:13:11:03 – 00:13:13:14
Speaker 3
Fun of me even more and then, you.
00:13:13:14 – 00:13:35:00
Speaker 2
Know, like, so that, that kind of thing. Right. So, so like that didn’t happen in Korea. So that’s why you’re like I was like, oh shit. Oh, I like I wasn’t at all like innocent like this excited kid and that so, so I think that’s, you know, like, right when I came here there was like a culture shock, you know, something like that.
00:13:35:03 – 00:13:59:16
Speaker 2
My parents, my parents are not very encouraging of, like, me going to hang out with my friends and things like that. We were always like, you know, like, you know, they don’t want me to like, go out and like, you know, just like, I guess they don’t want me to, like, hang out with the wrong crowd. It’s the thing, like, I, I, I have like, a lot of curiosity.
00:13:59:16 – 00:14:22:16
Speaker 2
So I tend to like, kind of hang on, you know, associate myself with the wrong, like, wrong crowd, which was, I mean, to their credit, I think they should have done a little bit of that. But I think what that instilled in me was kind of like, know like one time, okay, here’s here’s a good example. In the seventh grade, I wanted to go to this barbecue.
00:14:22:16 – 00:14:44:12
Speaker 2
I played basketball, but my parents won’t let me. And and then like, I don’t I don’t know exactly what happened. I don’t know if I just snuck out and went anyway, or like, I just asked my dad if I can go or something like that. And so I went. But I while playing basketball, I broke my arm and I ended up going to the hospital.
00:14:44:14 – 00:14:51:20
Speaker 2
And obviously at first they were like, oh well, while but like after when I got better, they were like, see, this is why I told you not to.
00:14:51:21 – 00:14:54:17
Speaker 3
You know, like, you know, that kind of thing.
00:14:54:19 – 00:15:20:23
Speaker 2
So like subconsciously I was always like, yeah, exactly. And it’s also a lot of the stuff that I did, like, I had to I remember sneaking out of my house a lot, to, to do things right. And you know, like, I kind of. My personally now is, is I’m not very social. So you know I don’t, I don’t go like go to go to dinner.
00:15:21:01 – 00:15:41:11
Speaker 2
You know we don’t host dinner parties. Know like you know a lot of people do like, you know, I don’t go hang out with my friends. Like, I have, like, very small, circle of friends and. Yeah, I kind of, I wonder, I always wonder if I would have been different if if I grew up more social and more encouraged to, like, hang out with friends.
00:15:41:11 – 00:15:58:05
Speaker 2
And so because I think they put a lot of focus on academia and schoolwork and things like that, and not enough focus on the social aspect. And but like, now I realize how important that social aspect is actually probably even more important than the academic when you’re growing up.
00:15:58:07 – 00:16:36:10
Speaker 1
You know? Yeah. So I’m kind of like gleaning. So when you were younger, when you were in Korea, you are not socially awkward like you were popular. People liked you. But you also mentioned that five year old son had like really good character and like, was a good son, like was a good person. And so I’m kind of wondering, like, do you think it was the move from like a place of comfort and like, emotional settling, like, oh my gosh, I can’t be I can’t think of the American word or.
00:16:36:12 – 00:17:03:14
Speaker 2
It’s like, I think the insecurity wise, like, I think I started becoming more insecure and that whole imposter syndrome and that kind of stuff when I came here, like, like low, low self-esteem and things like that, that started building at that age, like when I say good person, like I wasn’t an asshole. That’s something I picked up later in life.
00:17:03:16 – 00:17:26:01
Speaker 2
And okay. And what I mean by that is like, I remember like when I was young, even, I guess all the way up until I was like 20, like early 20s. I loved every person I met. Like, it doesn’t matter who you are. Like, I found every person I met fascinating, right? I’m like, oh my gosh, you’re so cool, like all of that.
00:17:26:03 – 00:17:42:05
Speaker 2
And then I don’t know why I became jaded like towards later on where I started hating everyone. I mean, like, especially after I started my business and then like, now I’m kind of like, I think I’m going back to trying to get myself to go back to the old son.
00:17:42:07 – 00:17:43:07
Speaker 3
Haha.
00:17:43:09 – 00:18:13:20
Speaker 1
Okay, your evening out. So kind of on this thread of like, you know, not being an asshole, but also like having a good character. And that kind of thing. You mentioned that, like, your sister, had her own room, like, at some point, like when you guys were in high school, right? But then, you know, you, you had to sleep in the living room.
00:18:13:22 – 00:18:35:17
Speaker 1
And you didn’t even once complain, and, I also heard you share stories about, like, how you were so focused on making your parents happy and proud that even when your dad paid you, like, $10 to wash the car, like you ended up spending that money to buy an air freshener, right? I didn’t do.
00:18:35:17 – 00:18:42:08
Speaker 2
It to make, proud, but I did it because out of pride and.
00:18:42:10 – 00:18:43:10
Speaker 3
Like.
00:18:43:12 – 00:18:48:02
Speaker 2
You know, that, like, like being proud of your work, like that type of thing. Like.
00:18:48:04 – 00:18:49:02
Speaker 1
Right.
00:18:49:04 – 00:18:50:00
Speaker 2
But it wasn’t for him.
00:18:50:06 – 00:19:36:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so. But you’re like, just to be clear. Got it. But, you know, I was kind of wondering, like, it seems like your parents, like, instilled some sort of values in you or were like, bent on teaching you certain, like, values to uphold, I guess. And so, you know, I was wondering, like, was it your family’s expect that you would, you know, personally extend empathy to other people, but maybe not have empathy for yourself or maybe reserve less benefit for yourself?
00:19:36:12 – 00:19:40:08
Speaker 1
Like I’m wondering where you learned that.
00:19:40:10 – 00:20:13:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, the the I don’t know if it’s empathy. It’s I think it’s more people pleasing. I mean, like, I would love to say it’s empathy, but it’s just not like the other day I, you know, I, I saw a post by this Korean doctor or something like that, and he was saying something like, you know, like, you know, like when you see people that over a give, it’s not coming from like generosity or empathy.
00:20:13:18 – 00:20:36:06
Speaker 2
It’s a lot of times it’s coming because of insecurity and lack, like, I have to over give because I’m not enough or something like that. And like, that feels more right to me. Right. And I don’t know where I learned that, like, maybe, maybe I learned that more here because I’m trying to get people to like me.
00:20:36:07 – 00:20:37:04
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:20:37:06 – 00:21:07:02
Speaker 2
So, yeah. The empathy thing, I didn’t I don’t think I really realized until really later on in life when, you know, like when, I guess maybe I kind of did in some ways, but, I still, you know, like, I don’t know, maybe we could talk about it like, it’s. So I do things because, you know, I do it.
00:21:07:04 – 00:21:23:08
Speaker 2
And even that car washing, I do it right. And I’m like, oh, yeah, I’m proud of it. But one of the parts that I’m really excited about is like, I can’t wait to show it to someone, right? Like, show it to my dad. And website is the same thing, right? So there it is, a something like that, that the validation that I get.
00:21:23:14 – 00:21:34:02
Speaker 2
Right. So maybe that, you know, I’m chasing that validation or something like that.
00:21:34:04 – 00:21:52:10
Speaker 2
Well, and it happened that like in the, I remember I, when I was young, I used to like, I used to always like go on a date or something like that and never like get ghosted or something like that. And I think, like, now looking back, I think it’s because, like, I was over giving too much, you know what I mean?
00:21:52:12 – 00:21:58:23
Speaker 2
Like, and maybe like they felt uncomfortable or something like that, you know, or like I was like.
00:21:59:00 – 00:21:59:17
Speaker 3
Yeah, you know.
00:21:59:17 – 00:22:20:05
Speaker 2
Like buying too many gifts like early on that’s like, you know, kind of a red flag. Like now looking back, I’m like, oh, fuck. But back then I’ll, you know, my my stupid brain is going like, oh, of course, if I buy her gifts and do all of this stuff for her, she’s going to love me. But it was opposite.
00:22:20:07 – 00:22:48:20
Speaker 1
Oh, man. I mean, I can’t imagine because, like, men and women are socialized differently, right? And so, I think, you know, I had that tendency and, you know, in therapy, I kind of, like, traced it back to finding, where it was sort of like, in order to protect myself, I need to be incredibly valuable to you.
00:22:48:22 – 00:23:19:20
Speaker 1
And do all of these things to make sure you don’t abandon me. And so when I look back at, like, the young me who constantly did that, who was constantly people pleasing because I didn’t have the psychological safety to be me, I feel really sad. And like, you know, for me, I know when it started, like, it started because of, like, the constant bullying.
00:23:19:22 – 00:23:37:15
Speaker 1
And when you’re immature or at that age, like, your, your nervous system tries to protect yourself and like, social disconnection is death. At that age. So when I, when I listen to your story, I’m just like, I can really relate.
00:23:37:15 – 00:23:38:21
Speaker 2
I think I know where it started.
00:23:38:21 – 00:23:40:01
Speaker 1
Okay. Sure.
00:23:40:03 – 00:24:05:03
Speaker 2
As you said that that that, fear of abandonment thing. I think I know where it started. Okay, so you’re right. I’m like that, like my first project with my freelance client. Like, she’d pay me $1,700, and I spent nine months working on that, like, because I felt like I wasn’t enough, right? I’m like, do you understand me like that?
00:24:05:03 – 00:24:31:01
Speaker 2
That I’m. I’m not worth that right. So. But I think what that came from is, as you were saying it, I remember when I was young, my dad, my mom used to say to me as a joke, like half joking, like when I do something bad and they’ll be like, oh, you know, we found you under the bridge and we’re going to we’re going to bring you back to your real parents.
00:24:31:03 – 00:24:31:09
Speaker 2
Right?
00:24:31:10 – 00:24:35:16
Speaker 3
And then this is how far they took it. They were like, pick up the.
00:24:35:16 – 00:24:40:07
Speaker 2
Phone, be like, I’m calling your parents real parents. Now.
00:24:40:09 – 00:24:46:07
Speaker 3
And look, looking back, that sounds hilarious, but.
00:24:46:09 – 00:25:07:09
Speaker 2
I was actually crying. Like, every time they do that, I would cry. And then, like, even, like, you know, my sister having her own room and like, me saying that. Oh yeah, that this is what I deserve, right? It’s kind of like, you know, my sister is like the jewel of the family, which is like another non stereotypical thing in the Korean family.
00:25:07:09 – 00:25:17:02
Speaker 2
Usually, like I got treated like a princess from my grandma for my uncle. Uncle. Everybody treated me like a prince except my own parents.
00:25:17:04 – 00:25:17:22
Speaker 3
By my own.
00:25:17:22 – 00:25:42:10
Speaker 2
Parents. Security to me, like average. So my sister was, you know, this is how much like important my sister was in my family. We, the entire family moved to New York from California. My senior year in high school. Like, literally me going into my senior year because my sister got into Juilliard. And, you know, Juilliard is like the number one school for music in the world.
00:25:42:12 – 00:26:15:03
Speaker 2
And my my mom is like a huge music kind of person. So they, they like they invested a lot into her, like her getting lessons are blah, blah, blah. And she was like always like the goody two shoe of the family. She she she she was like the, you know, she would do everything right. You know, like, when, when when she gets into trouble, like she knows how to, like, say the right thing to not get punished, whereas then I would like, pop back at my parents and the like, they’re punished even more so.
00:26:15:05 – 00:26:36:04
Speaker 2
So maybe I think they’re like combination of that. I think there’s something there where now looking back, it’s like there’s probably some sort of like a childhood trauma there that, you know, that made me always feel like, I’m not enough. I have to I have to prove myself. I have to prove my worthiness in order to not get abandoned or something like that, you know?
00:26:36:08 – 00:27:06:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. And you know, like Korean parents, they’re so mean, like, I think the things that they say that, you know, I think, like, everybody finds funny and they’re like, oh, it’s just a joke, but like, it. No, like I’m in year like number seven of therapy and like, it’s they’re not jokes. Like they wreak a lot of havoc on your nervous system.
00:27:06:21 – 00:27:14:11
Speaker 1
So like you sharing that, like it really is so sad. Like, I don’t know, I get emotional hearing that.
00:27:14:14 – 00:27:16:20
Speaker 2
Maybe because you have a kid,
00:27:16:22 – 00:27:17:19
Speaker 3
Like, it’s funny.
00:27:17:19 – 00:27:19:01
Speaker 2
For adults, right? Like.
00:27:19:03 – 00:27:19:21
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
00:27:19:22 – 00:27:29:12
Speaker 2
The other day, I saw a movie where, Iron Claw and it’s about a dad with his just raising three kids to a wrestlers.
00:27:29:13 – 00:27:30:11
Speaker 1
Oh, gosh.
00:27:30:12 – 00:27:37:01
Speaker 2
And that that is like one of the lines is that that it’s like, we all know like, you know, Kerry is my favorite.
00:27:37:03 – 00:27:48:07
Speaker 3
Is this is my second and third. But I heard, like I was like, oh my God. Because like, no parent would ever say that, right? But this is, this.
00:27:48:07 – 00:27:49:21
Speaker 2
Is from the 70s, right.
00:27:49:23 – 00:28:10:09
Speaker 1
So, yeah, parents are just so mean. And, you know, it does come from like, traumas of their own and I think, like, they just don’t know that they’re passing down a lot of, like, scarcity mindset, a lot of intergenerational trauma. I think it’s.
00:28:10:14 – 00:28:11:11
Speaker 2
Like, I think in their.
00:28:11:11 – 00:28:12:10
Speaker 1
Mind, yeah.
00:28:12:12 – 00:28:15:10
Speaker 2
They were actually being nice compared to.
00:28:15:12 – 00:28:16:08
Speaker 3
What their past.
00:28:16:08 – 00:28:23:14
Speaker 2
It to them. Right. Because like, I was hearing stories of what like what my grandma with. It’s my, my dad. And there’s like you have it easy.
00:28:23:16 – 00:28:24:13
Speaker 3
You know what I mean?
00:28:24:15 – 00:28:32:17
Speaker 2
Like back in my days. So I think to them they think that they’re doing it taking a softer. But I it’s.
00:28:32:18 – 00:28:32:23
Speaker 3
It’s.
00:28:32:23 – 00:28:35:12
Speaker 2
Still like compared to now. Yeah.
00:28:35:14 – 00:29:04:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. And also you know like they didn’t really have like parenting advice back then. You know, there weren’t that many books. There weren’t like a lot of parenting experts. They were all kind of winging it. So yeah, it’s it’s really tricky. So like kind of transitioning into this idea of like, actually, let’s start here. Like your personal brand is about being authentic, right?
00:29:04:03 – 00:29:33:18
Speaker 1
It’s about being completely honest about who you are, what you think, and taking, like, full responsibility for, you know, all that you do. And in many ways, like a lot of people value authenticity, but they stopped short of fully expressing authenticity because, they’re afraid of, like, psychological harm or physical harm, like being canceled or something, for example.
00:29:33:20 – 00:30:02:09
Speaker 1
And I wonder for you, like it? It sounds like you had, like, decades of authenticity and decades of maybe kind of struggling with low self-esteem. And it kind of sounds like you had an interesting dynamic with your family, about how authentic you could be. And so I’m wondering, like, for you, when did it start?
00:30:02:09 – 00:30:09:00
Speaker 1
Like, when did you start fully owning authenticity as a brand and, you know, being tied to that?
00:30:09:00 – 00:30:30:21
Speaker 2
I think when I started my agency, it really like when I started freelancing and I started my agency, I think that’s when it really started. Like, maybe authenticity has something to do with confidence and like, for me, confidence has to do with, like seeing seeing evidence that I have I am competent at something or something like that.
00:30:30:21 – 00:30:53:04
Speaker 2
Right? Like I can’t just be confident out of nowhere. It’s like, oh, you know, people are like they hype themselves up before a talk and like, I can’t do that, right? And so so I think it started when I started freelancing in business. But before that I was the if you met me before that, I was probably the most fakest person you met.
00:30:53:06 – 00:31:15:06
Speaker 2
And you wouldn’t even know that because like I would say one thing to you and something completely different to someone else. Like with the flat face, right? And like inside, you know, like you do that long enough, you fake it long enough. I think you start to believe that that fake version is the real you, and you do that long enough.
00:31:15:07 – 00:31:15:23
Speaker 2
You I think you.
00:31:16:04 – 00:31:16:14
Speaker 3
You.
00:31:16:14 – 00:31:46:07
Speaker 2
Completely lose yourself. Like, it’s like being it. It feels like being like, in the middle of a ocean, like in the middle of nowhere, or like, not knowing where to go, like a completely lost or something like that. I think, like, I think I actually I think a lot of people have to go through that point because like, you have this mask, mask, mask, like living a lie, living a lie, living a lie.
00:31:46:07 – 00:32:00:16
Speaker 2
And then there has to be this one point where you realize all of that, and now you feel completely devastated because you’re like, oh my gosh, my whole life is a lie. And you’re not like, okay, like, I don’t know, who am I like? And there has to be that a little.
00:32:00:16 – 00:32:02:15
Speaker 3
Bit of lost period and.
00:32:02:15 – 00:32:24:06
Speaker 2
Then you start to find yourself or something, I don’t know, something like that. But that happened to me when I started my agency, I think because like, subconsciously, because, you know, even in my job, I was even though I was good throughout my whole life, I never thought of myself as good like I would in church that were, you know, they needed a flier.
00:32:24:06 – 00:32:49:10
Speaker 2
So I would design this flier using like some, like really basic tools and then like go to Kinko’s, make copies and all of that. And then they were like, oh, wow, this is like the best flier, like best, you know, this church pamphlets that it’s like the best one I’ve ever seen. And people will say, like, those things kept happening over like, even when I learn website and I would make a website for a friend who was like, Holy shit, like this, like blah blah blah.
00:32:49:12 – 00:33:20:19
Speaker 2
But I always in my mind was like, oh, they’re just saying that. They’re just saying that to be polite, right? Until like later on. I think when I started getting paid and even then I was like, that’s why I was charging so little. But when people really started paying me a lot, I’m like, okay, that’s when I started getting a little bit cocky, almost more arrogant and and yeah, so, so I maybe I thought that that was like now at that point, like the fear had disappeared.
00:33:20:19 – 00:33:40:17
Speaker 2
Right. And I’m like, oh, I don’t have to be scared to, you know, like like scared to get people to like me or anything like that. So I overcorrected. So. And that’s why I became an asshole, I think. Right. Like part of that authenticity was like, oh, it’s like, now I’m not scared to say whatever is on my mind anymore.
00:33:40:17 – 00:34:01:13
Speaker 2
And that made me become an asshole. And that happened for a while. And then I noticed, like over like ten year period, people started living my life like people started dropping out of my life right before that, like I was always the life of the party. I feel like I there was always people around me, like like my dorm room.
00:34:01:13 – 00:34:24:16
Speaker 2
There was always like 20 people in my in our suite, like in my, like, there was always people over at my house. But like, little by little, I think I started pushing people away. And I think that’s why I, I recognized that and then, like, I actually recognized that that like, just being an asshole is not the real me either.
00:34:24:18 – 00:34:40:19
Speaker 2
Right. But at least like during that period when I was an asshole, I stop fearing what other people think of me or things like that. You know, so I don’t know if I had to go through that period in order to get to that final stage.
00:34:40:21 – 00:34:42:10
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:34:42:12 – 00:34:48:15
Speaker 2
You know, the funny thing is, even when I say it, I don’t care what people think of me. Like, that’s me caring what people think.
00:34:48:15 – 00:34:50:02
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah.
00:34:50:04 – 00:34:52:07
Speaker 3
See, you know what I mean?
00:34:52:09 – 00:35:31:21
Speaker 1
I totally understand. I mean, you know, like, I think I think what’s interesting is I can really understand a lot of these sort of, mental shifts. And for me, you know, I have never been able to express them physically or in words or articulate them, but I definitely had the same, like, emotional journeys within myself. But I guess that that’s part of, like, you know, the socialization of, of women and men.
00:35:31:23 – 00:35:45:12
Speaker 1
I think it’s sort of like encourage, I think, for males to be able to exhibit sort of, I mean, I don’t I wouldn’t say cocky, but like, I think you use that word. So I’m just going to use it.
00:35:45:14 – 00:36:12:21
Speaker 2
Why do you think that happens? Because it’s not like somebody is somebody wrote a book that teaches that. Right? Like people are the society is kind of doing it on their own. Right. So yeah. Why do you think that happens? I was always curious. I can remember, watching this commercial where like, and it’s so true, like when a man acts a certain way, people say, oh, wow, that guy’s really confident or something like that.
00:36:12:23 – 00:36:18:10
Speaker 2
But if, like, a woman does the exact same thing, people are gonna be like, she’s bossy or something. You know what I mean?
00:36:18:12 – 00:36:19:00
Speaker 1
Exactly.
00:36:19:00 – 00:36:32:03
Speaker 2
And I don’t know where that comes from because it’s. Yeah, like, I don’t I don’t know if that’s taught as much as learned behavior. Do you know what I mean?
00:36:32:06 – 00:37:06:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, I do, and there’s like this concept of like, microaggressions and microaggressions. And so I think the short answer for me, would be like, patriarchy. Right. I think there are lots of statistics that kind of, I guess, fill, fill this in, fill in the details. But, things like autoimmunity, right. Like, autoimmune diseases, are so much more prevalent in women.
00:37:06:13 – 00:37:28:10
Speaker 1
And it’s, it’s part of that socialization of it’s not okay to speak up and it’s, it’s like, I think told to us by like the media, like the messaging of like, oh, this is what women are supposed to do in a relationship. This is what men are supposed to do. So we read it in books. We see it in the media, we see it on the news.
00:37:28:12 – 00:37:51:05
Speaker 2
Don’t you think the media is a reflection of, what people want though, like I the reason why I’m asking is I do think that it’s a patriarchy, right? Because men have, men have been pretty much in control for most of society. And even now, to a certain degree. So I don’t think we can get away from that.
00:37:51:07 – 00:38:10:10
Speaker 2
Right. And I don’t I don’t I don’t even know if we’ll ever get away from that. Because if you look at most Animal Kingdom, majority of them, it’s like a patriarchy, right? Like, except for, like, bees or, you know, something bonobos do you look at most. Yeah, yeah. If you look at most mammals, I think it’s it’s most mammals are patriarchy.
00:38:10:10 – 00:38:16:04
Speaker 2
And I think that’s because, you know, it’s, it’s males are the protectors and they’re like they’re the stronger.
00:38:16:06 – 00:38:17:01
Speaker 3
They’re like, they.
00:38:17:01 – 00:38:17:21
Speaker 2
Can I’ll fight.
00:38:18:02 – 00:38:20:19
Speaker 3
A woman so that like like.
00:38:20:21 – 00:38:30:21
Speaker 2
That’s just I don’t think that’s ever going to change in my opinion. Right. So if that if that’s never going to change, how do you fix that.
00:38:30:23 – 00:38:53:21
Speaker 1
Well, I think there are examples of, matriarchal societies like, I think bonobos are mammalian. And it’s, it’s it is a very matriarchal society. And I think there are lots of, I think societies within nature. And.
00:38:53:22 – 00:38:55:01
Speaker 3
There’s.
00:38:55:03 – 00:39:04:14
Speaker 2
There’s, there’s like, lie and what do you call that, pride or proud? Like blind packs that are also matriarchy.
00:39:04:16 – 00:39:05:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:05:18 – 00:39:06:20
Speaker 2
So it’s not always.
00:39:06:20 – 00:39:07:14
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:39:07:16 – 00:39:33:19
Speaker 2
It’s like but the only reason why that that’s a matriarchy is because they lacked males. Like, a lot of times when it’s a matriarchy, it’s not it’s not because of it’s because it’s like it’s a forced matriarch. It’s because the. Why is this all this one happened to be the woman. But then as soon as, like, you know, the next generation, like, couple generation after that might be a patriarchy.
00:39:33:21 – 00:39:43:18
Speaker 2
But as long as, like a, there’s a strong alpha male like the even in a chimp society. I don’t know if you saw Chimp Empire on Netflix, like so fascinating.
00:39:43:20 – 00:39:45:06
Speaker 3
But yeah.
00:39:45:06 – 00:40:07:04
Speaker 2
So this documentary talks about all of that, the hierarchies and how chimps move up and, you know, things like that. And, and and it’s because like, they’re because they can’t. Right. Because at the end of the day, the male terms are going to be the strongest. So if they if they get attacked by other chimps or something like that, the males are the ones that have to do the protection.
00:40:07:04 – 00:40:23:08
Speaker 2
And, and also like the males can, have like use violence over females to do not I mean, as long as other weaker males. So, that power I think is not going to change.
00:40:23:10 – 00:40:24:16
Speaker 3
To that of it.
00:40:24:18 – 00:40:56:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think as long as we see power as something that we take, I think you’re right that we’re not going to fix patriarchy. Because I think, you know, this need for control or power really comes from fear. It really comes from, like, being afraid of uncertainty. And it really is a survival skill. So it kind of is kind of intertwined with that scarcity mindset of, you know.
00:40:56:09 – 00:40:59:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, like, if I don’t have this, then nobody can be.
00:40:59:21 – 00:41:07:23
Speaker 2
Like, the number one gets all the food they get, he get the best food, he gets all the woman he wants. You know what I mean?
00:41:08:01 – 00:41:40:10
Speaker 1
But, you know, I think there’s, an anthropologist, Robert Sapolsky, I think. Or. No, you know what? I don’t think this is the person who said this, but there’s somebody who studies, monkeys. I forget which kind. But I think they were talking about how, like, the alpha male alpha monkey, actually has the most amount of cortisol, in their saliva is because, when you’re the alpha male, like, you have to stay in control.
00:41:40:12 – 00:41:47:17
Speaker 1
And so you’re afraid of having your power taken away from you. And so it’s also not, you know, like, physical strength. Yeah.
00:41:47:18 – 00:41:54:05
Speaker 2
But when you look at those pecs, the alpha male is not usually, like, the strongest.
00:41:54:07 – 00:41:55:14
Speaker 1
Right?
00:41:55:16 – 00:42:05:06
Speaker 2
They have. Like, he’s usually the second in charge is the strongest. Yeah, but they know how to, like, form a bond with that person.
00:42:05:08 – 00:42:36:12
Speaker 1
Right. Politics. Yeah. It’s really interesting I think when we get into. Yeah, like, animals and I don’t really know that much. I just know a little bit here and there to like, piece together. Like what makes sense for me. But, you know, like, like speaking of power, I think one really big thing that I struggled with, as a young person was this idea of, like, disagreement.
00:42:36:12 – 00:43:05:06
Speaker 1
I, I recently read this children’s book, I dissent, and it’s, it’s about Ruth Bader Ginsburg. The second female justice of the United States Supreme Court. For people, listening who are not based in the United States, it’s called I dissent and the first sentence inside the book flap says disagreeing does not make a person disagreeable.
00:43:05:08 – 00:43:27:16
Speaker 1
And like it took me forever to learn this because I thought, okay, disagreement. It means you’re enemies or, disagreement. It means like, psychological death. And like, I think I somewhat some people can probably argue that I’m still learning this. But I’m wondering, like, did you struggle with this at all?
00:43:27:18 – 00:43:59:08
Speaker 2
Cuz I’m very agreeable person, actually. And then I again, I overcorrected. So. And I think that that for me the agreeable me actually I think was like the, you know, the, the authentic version of me, the disagreeable, me is actually the it that’s my ego usually because so what I did was because I was too agreeable that came to bite me in the ass so many times.
00:43:59:10 – 00:44:12:04
Speaker 2
You know what I mean? Like, oh, son, I thought you, you know, I thought you said it was okay. Like, you know, like me, like. Oh, I thought you wanted to see that movie. Oh, I thought you. I thought you didn’t like because I know I was just doing that to be agreeable. I wasn’t, you know what I mean?
00:44:12:06 – 00:44:30:16
Speaker 2
But. So it always came back to bite me in the ass, right? So after that happening so many times throughout my life, I think I subconsciously started learning how to be this agreeable where? And I overcorrected to a point where when somebody says something is like, I would like, not.
00:44:30:18 – 00:44:32:11
Speaker 3
Hate because I know what this.
00:44:32:11 – 00:45:08:08
Speaker 2
Is going to lead down to in the future. Right? So, so I became so disagreeable. And now I’m trying to fix myself. And maybe this is what she’s talking about. Like now. It’s it’s almost like a trauma response. Like whenever somebody disagrees with me, even though if we talk it up, maybe I’ll agree with that person. Like, if I hear the tone, it’s like, well, actually, or like somebody is like to be honest or like, you know, that’s not necessarily true or something like that.
00:45:08:08 – 00:45:27:19
Speaker 2
Those are not disagreeing. But as soon as I hear those things, it triggers me, like, oh yeah. And then that’s now that this is not the true me, like trying to actually have a conversation. It’s me clashing, my ego just clashing. And okay, now this is my I have to be disagreeable here or something like that.
00:45:27:21 – 00:45:31:02
Speaker 2
And that’s like, I’m actually trying to really work hard on that.
00:45:31:02 – 00:45:31:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:45:31:12 – 00:45:51:14
Speaker 2
Because it and I didn’t realize how much that happened, how bad that was for me because, you know, I’m like, oh, I’ve worked on my ego and I should be good. But then I didn’t realize it until I went on like Twitter and Threads and I’m like, Holy shit. Like, I, I can, I can sense my triggers and.
00:45:51:16 – 00:45:52:09
Speaker 3
Do none of it.
00:45:52:14 – 00:46:08:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Threads. Twitter like people are on social media are really mean. They are so and they’re very, very confident behind their phones.
00:46:09:00 – 00:46:10:09
Speaker 2
And I just like kiss.
00:46:10:10 – 00:46:11:12
Speaker 1
Yes. And that’s why.
00:46:11:12 – 00:46:13:01
Speaker 3
When good kids I mean.
00:46:13:03 – 00:46:38:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s like we’ve reverted back to like sixth grade, like bullies. They will bully you just because I think in psychology this is called dis displacement. Right. Like that. There are like because you have less power in your life to control things, right? Like they hate their job or, you know, they hate their spouse or they hate their friends or whoever.
00:46:38:03 – 00:46:44:16
Speaker 1
What? That’s true. Right? They’re going to take it out on the person that has less power than them.
00:46:44:18 – 00:46:50:21
Speaker 2
There’s also like, because, you know, a lot of those people are not like that in person, probably. I mean, I don’t know, because I have a method.
00:46:50:21 – 00:46:51:13
Speaker 1
Exactly.
00:46:51:13 – 00:47:13:22
Speaker 2
But I, I never meet people in real life like that. So I think what’s what’s also happened is like, you know, how when you eat meat like you don’t understand that this meet was killed like like some animal was and we don’t see that part, like out of sight, out of mind. And I think when kids bully because I, you know, I, I, I was on the other side of bullying also.
00:47:13:22 – 00:47:15:21
Speaker 2
Right. Because I wasn’t a bully.
00:47:16:00 – 00:47:17:00
Speaker 1
Right.
00:47:17:02 – 00:47:23:06
Speaker 2
But I was definitely playing the part of like when I could have saved somebody from getting bullied.
00:47:23:08 – 00:47:24:03
Speaker 1
00:47:24:05 – 00:47:25:22
Speaker 2
I would keep my mouth shut. Right. Because I.
00:47:25:22 – 00:47:26:08
Speaker 1
Don’t want that.
00:47:26:08 – 00:47:48:16
Speaker 2
Same, I mean, that kind of thing. But I like, not feel really bad about it because I think I think the kids who bullied me, I don’t think they understand how it feels to be bullied. I at least then they didn’t know. So they don’t know what they were doing to other people because they they’ve never felt that.
00:47:48:16 – 00:48:16:01
Speaker 2
And it’s kind of like I remember like talking to one of my friends who was white. And for somebody who’s white, who’s never faced racism, they don’t even know what it feels like to have a racist joke thrown at them. So yes, I agree, it’s just a joke or whatever, but if you haven’t, if you don’t know what that feels like, like it’s so much easier for you to do it to other people.
00:48:16:06 – 00:48:33:15
Speaker 2
Do you understand me? But then I think through our life, at some point we get, you know, we start to understand how much words hurt and all of that things. And then we start to be careful with our, you know, we start becoming more polite. That’s why adults are more polite, right? Because they’ve been through that shit so they have more empathy.
00:48:33:15 – 00:48:40:17
Speaker 2
And then you go on social media and when they’re like keyboard warriors, like what’s I think what’s happening is it’s just they’re so detached.
00:48:40:17 – 00:48:42:11
Speaker 3
From the person.
00:48:42:12 – 00:48:51:18
Speaker 2
They’re so detached from the person, like, like meat, eating meat and being detached from that animal that they don’t know what they’re doing. It’s in that mean.
00:48:51:19 – 00:48:56:00
Speaker 3
So. So they become really bold.
00:48:56:02 – 00:49:21:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. That’s right. And, I totally agree with that. And then there’s another part of this puzzle where it’s like, they’re being bullied by somebody they respect, too, right? So sometimes it could be a parent. Sometimes it could be a teacher. Sometimes it could be just a society that tells them that they’re not enough.
00:49:21:05 – 00:49:23:01
Speaker 1
Right? So it’s like.
00:49:23:03 – 00:49:25:03
Speaker 2
That’s probably more.
00:49:25:05 – 00:49:56:22
Speaker 1
But you know, but it’s a cycle. I think it’s a cycle because like, hurt people, hurt people. And then because they have no accountability or responsibility for the hurt that they pass on to the other person, they continue to do it. So it’s just it’s like this endless cycle and it really sucks. And, you know, that kind of reminds me, you once told me that, there’s a right way to tell stories and a wrong way.
00:49:57:00 – 00:50:22:13
Speaker 1
And I’m not sure if you remember this, but you said the right way to use storytelling. And the right way is to use storytelling as social currency or, in other words, to build relationships. And, you know, I had never heard it phrased that way or, yeah. Or have it framed in that way. And it really.
00:50:22:13 – 00:50:25:12
Speaker 2
Blew me when I say it was the wrong way.
00:50:25:14 – 00:50:47:13
Speaker 1
So I tried to I screenshotted that, and I couldn’t find it on my phone. So I will definitely let you know later when I find it. But I can’t remember what the wrong way was. I think it was something like when you, when you try to one up someone instead of trying to be vulnerable, right?
00:50:47:13 – 00:50:49:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. So if somebody.
00:50:49:14 – 00:50:50:17
Speaker 2
So. Yeah.
00:50:50:17 – 00:50:52:13
Speaker 1
So do you remember.
00:50:52:15 – 00:51:19:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. The the right way to tell a story is I think it’s because when, when you tell a vulnerable story that somebody is like, find it relatable, right? They’re like, I heard this from, what’s his name? Robert McKee. Okay. What story? The screenplay won. Yeah. So he says, like, story is is the currency of, like, human relationships and that it’s so true.
00:51:19:22 – 00:51:26:08
Speaker 2
Like, if somebody tells me a vulnerable story, I just I just became closer with that.
00:51:26:08 – 00:51:27:19
Speaker 3
Person, you.
00:51:27:19 – 00:51:49:08
Speaker 2
Know, you and and the more. And that’s why we’re we’re our best friends are the ones that we know their whole story, right? Like, Yeah. They feel vulnerable enough to talk to you about their their problems and things like that. So. Yeah. Okay. I’ll stand by that statement.
00:51:49:10 – 00:52:23:05
Speaker 1
So, you know, we were talking a little bit about bullying and, like, hurt people. Hurt people. And we haven’t really talked about this other piece, but, If, if storytelling. Because. All right, I, I didn’t mention this part, but, everybody who’s listening probably already knows this, but, you know, you founded Night Owls, an award winning digital agency that has helped people like, you know, really big names like Mel Robbins, Jay Shetty, Mark Randolph.
00:52:23:05 – 00:52:57:11
Speaker 1
Right. Like build incredibly profitable and impactful brands. And you do that by refining their storytelling in a way that really lands with people, where you really show the vulnerable side, right? You show how they sort of went from the ground up. And so a lot of the stories that you tell, a lot of the stories that you’ve helped people tell, have an amazing arc.
00:52:57:13 – 00:53:28:11
Speaker 1
And they really do pull people in. And I think that’s what makes you an excellent marketer. And so now you help everybody around the world tell better stories. And so kind of going back to this, thing about building relationships, if, if storytelling, good storytelling is the answer to good marketing, and storytelling is also the answer to building relationships.
00:53:28:13 – 00:53:48:21
Speaker 1
But what we’re teaching our students is actually how to be competitive in schools. What do you think we need to do differently about how we educate our young people? To focus on building relationships and not focus on being competitive? That’s a big question. I know.
00:53:48:23 – 00:53:50:18
Speaker 3
00:53:50:20 – 00:54:19:00
Speaker 2
By the way, before I answer that, like, I just want to touch on because like the whole storytelling for my clients, what I’m realizing more and more is. What what usually happens is, they’ll tell me their whole life story, and this takes, like, hours. And I ask a lot of questions in between. And usually what happens is.
00:54:19:02 – 00:54:43:00
Speaker 2
Here’s, like, the big difference between the ones that are like, those stories really hit with the audience versus not is so I do is I just have them tell me the whole thing and I can kind of tell this is the part you should include and everything else you don’t need, right? And then boom. So what I’m really doing is I’m not really helping them write their story, crafting their story.
00:54:43:00 – 00:55:04:12
Speaker 2
I don’t even like to write it. I have them write it, but I identify which parts I want them to focus on and not then ignore the rest. Right. And I and sometimes they want to focus on this and I’m like, no, we got to cut that out, right? Something like so all I’m really doing is I’m just pointing out the parts and it’s everything else is their their genuine story.
00:55:04:12 – 00:55:09:02
Speaker 2
And I think, I think truth actually has the best story. I think what when it doesn’t work.
00:55:09:05 – 00:55:10:03
Speaker 4
00:55:10:05 – 00:55:46:23
Speaker 2
Is usually number one some clients as much like my tactic is this I always go out vulnerable first and I’m like the one until this wall is really down on both sides. We can’t really work together, right? Because we’re just trying to be polite to each other and then but then some clients then will never. It just comes down and like a like, if you listen to my podcast, it’s you’ll see like there are some people that I just can’t break through that wall because their, their guard is so up, so strong.
00:55:47:01 – 00:56:06:15
Speaker 2
And usually those, those stories tend to be not that good. And also sometimes like I want them to share this one, this specific part. But they’re so scared to it. But I know for a fact that that’s the part that’s going to make the difference. But ultimately, like, you know, they’re shamed of it or whatever it is.
00:56:06:17 – 00:56:35:03
Speaker 2
So as long as like my clients are completely open and honest, I actually think the story kind of almost writes itself like, I you just need to I just like so I’m not really writing these stories for them. I just want to be clear on that. In terms of the education, like one of the things that I really wish I had was the social skills, because I feel like I just didn’t learn that at all.
00:56:35:03 – 00:56:44:16
Speaker 2
I for me, growing up, everything was just academic. Academic, you know, I don’t know, what do you think? Maybe we.
00:56:44:16 – 00:56:46:07
Speaker 3
Can.
00:56:46:09 – 00:56:47:20
Speaker 2
Have a conversation about it.
00:56:47:22 – 00:57:44:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, the reason I asked you this question is because, like, the way that you like, I know that you hear from a lot of people that you are a good storyteller and you know, which pieces to, include in a story. And I think I want to mention, like, the only the best storytellers that I know have been through that arc of personality of, like, knowing what it’s like to have either a low self self-esteem or like, having not had a lot of power, or not felt like they could own any kind of power, whether it’s social capital, you know, financial capital, whatever, whatever, whatever power you want to include.
00:57:44:05 – 00:58:22:13
Speaker 1
Right. And to know what it’s like to have little power and to go through a journey of understanding how to come into your power. And I, I want to say like, that’s good storytelling. And good storytellers have been through an arc like that in some kind of way. And so when I think about, like, the social skills and the building and it’s like these little tiny bits of connection where you’re like, I’ve experienced less power than you.
00:58:22:15 – 00:58:33:10
Speaker 1
And so I’m, I’m, I’m able to empathize with you in this particular situation. So it’s these constant back and forth of bids for connection. Right?
00:58:33:12 – 00:58:48:12
Speaker 2
I think I, I, I like, as you’re saying, that I was thinking about that because I think it’s that power thing. It doesn’t matter how privileged you are or whatever it is. I think everyone’s gone through that.
00:58:48:17 – 00:58:49:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:58:49:18 – 00:59:16:04
Speaker 2
Like and that’s why stories work is because no matter how different we are, at the end of the day, we’re all like, that’s one thing I find fascinating. No matter in every country that I visit, everyone I talk to from all different areas of life doesn’t matter if you’re a billionaire or you’re like, you know, living on like $50 a month in Dominican Republic, like, humans are humans and we all struggle and suffer the same thing.
00:59:16:06 – 00:59:21:14
Speaker 2
And that’s why I think stories work. I think for me, okay, now I can answer this question.
00:59:21:19 – 00:59:22:09
Speaker 1
Okay, good.
00:59:22:12 – 00:59:33:00
Speaker 2
If I were to if I was in charge of the Department of Education or whatever, I think the one thing that I learned and I actually learned this later, more later in.
00:59:33:00 – 00:59:33:08
Speaker 3
Life.
00:59:33:12 – 00:59:34:01
Speaker 4
00:59:34:03 – 01:00:06:03
Speaker 2
Because I think I was naturally curious and reflective and problem solving, but I suppressed that side of me for the early part. Later on, I embraced it. So I think for me, what happened was and I was a terrible storyteller for, for the, for most of my life. So I think what happened for me was, I, I started reflecting on, on the things that happen, and I start to critically think about what happened there.
01:00:06:08 – 01:00:34:00
Speaker 2
And I think people always say this, like whenever I explain something, people are like, yeah, I never thought of it that like, I, I’ve always felt that, but I didn’t know how to word it. I didn’t know how to explain it right. And I think the reason why I was able to do that is because, like, you know, for like the last 15 years of my life, I just been reflecting and kind of trying to dissect it and reverse engineering, like what happened there and then put myself in that person’s shoes like, oh, why did I say that?
01:00:34:00 – 01:00:52:23
Speaker 2
Oh, you know, like those kind of things. And also like when I see other people, I do the same thing. Oh, that’s so interesting. Why why would you say that? And, you know, like those kind of things and I think a lot of, or if I disagree with something. So I have I’m so stubborn that my ego is so high.
01:00:53:01 – 01:01:04:12
Speaker 2
So usually when I get into an argument or disagreement or debate or like I’m like, no, I’m right and you’re wrong, blah blah blah, but what happens is, let’s say I was wrong.
01:01:04:14 – 01:01:05:15
Speaker 3
Even though I like.
01:01:05:15 – 01:01:27:15
Speaker 2
Let’s, let’s say even though I said I’m right about let’s say I was wrong, somehow my subconscious or like my subconscious. Well, at that, that night, while I’m lying in bed will creep up and be like and then be like, son, actually, you might have been wrong about that, you know what I mean? And then, like the next day I feel bad because, like, like, oh, shit, I was wrong, you know what I mean?
01:01:27:17 – 01:01:56:06
Speaker 2
So so that happened a lot. And I think, a lot of people don’t think critically like that. So when I’m teaching right now, one of the most frustrating thing is that, everybody wants to learn like, okay, here’s the step by step, by step by step and okay, what do I need to memorize and like? It’s so frustrating because it’s I can’t get them out of that box to be like.
01:01:56:08 – 01:01:57:02
Speaker 3
Well.
01:01:57:04 – 01:02:23:17
Speaker 2
You know what I mean? Like it’s like, you know, here’s an example, right? Like if I say, step by step, tell a story about a time, when when you overcame a fear. Right? A lot of people might have had a hard time with that. And then if I say, oh, here’s an example and I give my story, then they’re going to be like, oh, yeah, I have a story like that.
01:02:23:18 – 01:02:32:09
Speaker 2
And then but some people are still like, it was like, oh no, not right. And then like if I say, oh, I used to be scared of blank.
01:02:32:11 – 01:02:33:15
Speaker 3
Until about.
01:02:33:16 – 01:02:57:00
Speaker 2
Black. And if I do that, then it becomes easier. So it’s almost like I have to handhold them and almost like know what story I’m going to write for them. And I just have them fill in the blanks. And if I make it like that, then I think everyone, everyone would do it. But at the same time, what frustrates me is if I make it like that, then you’re not learning anything.
01:02:57:02 – 01:02:59:17
Speaker 3
To that I so.
01:02:59:19 – 01:03:30:23
Speaker 2
It’s like, so that’s and I think that’s, that comes from our education system. I think we’re just taught not to think. I actually think that I don’t know if you heard the story, but, you know, like the Rockefellers funded the, the Department of Education in the beginning. And their whole concept was, I don’t I don’t know if it was Henry Ford or Rockefeller, but their whole concept was to make people not think, to create a generation of workers.
01:03:30:23 – 01:03:31:15
Speaker 2
Right?
01:03:31:17 – 01:03:32:09
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:03:32:11 – 01:03:50:09
Speaker 2
And I’m sure it’s evolved since then, but that’s the foundation, right. And I when I look at schools right now, I do feel that way. I feel like they’re they’re training. It’s almost like, you know when you go to trade school. And they just teach you how to weld or teach, you have this specific skill so that you can put them to work.
01:03:50:11 – 01:04:24:08
Speaker 2
That’s how I feel like that’s how education I feel like is it’s not far from that. And maybe that’s why so many people like critical. I’m just so shocked when I talk to most people how we’ll be talking about a concept and then like, I’ll so easily debunked, they’re debunked. There. Whatever. I believe they were thinking and they didn’t even see, like the reason why I never thought of it that way works is because all I’m doing is like, yeah, you believe in this, but have you ever considered this?
01:04:24:10 – 01:04:45:00
Speaker 2
And as soon as I expose that, because you know what? Most things, there’s actually the other side of it. Nothing is absolutely true or false, right? Like there’s sometimes this is true, sometimes like everything is. And if you just critically think about it, it’s so obvious. But nobody’s just stop to think about it. That’s why when I just point it out, they go.
01:04:45:00 – 01:04:51:06
Speaker 2
I never thought of it that way. So that at that critical thinking piece is missing so much in our education, I think.
01:04:51:08 – 01:05:18:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think it kind of goes back to like this idea of not being able to disagree, like so much of schooling is about breeding compliance and obedience, you know, so it’s like, we want you to have the Madlib answer because it’s easier for standardization purposes to to check all these boxes. So yeah, there’s a lot wrong.
01:05:19:00 – 01:05:19:16
Speaker 1
And so.
01:05:19:16 – 01:05:26:03
Speaker 2
And it’s almost like, I don’t know if that’s starts from top down or we’re doing it to ourselves.
01:05:26:06 – 01:05:26:19
Speaker 4
01:05:26:21 – 01:05:40:05
Speaker 2
But you know, like when you’re in class and, like, you know, that kid who always raises the hand ask questions like, other kids will start shaming them, right? They’ll like, oh, again, you know, like that, like teacher’s pet or whatever it is.
01:05:40:06 – 01:05:41:22
Speaker 3
So it’s like we do it.
01:05:41:22 – 01:05:43:00
Speaker 2
To ourselves, you know?
01:05:43:00 – 01:05:45:13
Speaker 3
Most do. None of it.
01:05:45:15 – 01:06:05:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. For sure. It’s like because I think we talked about this before, but like as a teacher, I love when students ask me questions because I like to go deeper. But then like half the classroom is like, oh my gosh, this isn’t in the book. Like it’s not going to be on the test. Why are we going through this?
01:06:05:10 – 01:06:46:09
Speaker 1
So, it’s it’s really about that paper chase of like, look, I’m here just to check all the boxes and get my degree and, you know, check my status and all that stuff, but I’m not really here to learn. So, you know, I guess, like, I want to be mindful of your time, but I, you know, looking back at your education journey, both formal and informal, at home and in society, professional and not professional, like you talked about how social skills was maybe one skill that you wanted to learn, and that you didn’t really have access to.
01:06:46:11 – 01:07:10:18
Speaker 1
And I’m wondering, what do you think maybe schools could have done differently to maybe nurture, social skill building or, you know, communication skills or these sort of meta skills? Right. I’m wondering, what do you think that schools could have done differently for you, that maybe you could have learned these skills sooner?
01:07:10:19 – 01:07:35:04
Speaker 2
Maybe the critical think, okay, I think actually, now that you’re saying like the social skill, I don’t think is actually that big of a thing, I think the critical thinking part is more, and I think the way they have to teach that, I think is actually not I mean, maybe there should be tests and all of that, but maybe that should only be like half of school.
01:07:35:06 – 01:07:54:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, maybe the other half of school should just be open discussions and debates and challenging idea more you know, more kind of free fall freeform kind of learning. Right. But social skills I feel like it’s I think that has to come more from parents.
01:07:54:10 – 01:07:54:14
Speaker 4
Than.
01:07:54:14 – 01:08:00:02
Speaker 2
School because I think schools are already doing everything they can because you put 30 people in a.
01:08:00:02 – 01:08:03:02
Speaker 3
Room like they’re going to, they’re going to have they’re going.
01:08:03:02 – 01:08:26:06
Speaker 2
To have to figure out social skills. And I you know what I mean? And, you know, they have recess and, you know, like so I think school is already doing everything to facilitate that, especially like in United States. I think that’s something that’s really good about the school here. When I came here, I, I went from just, you know, setting like you have to sit at a desk with a book to in the US.
01:08:26:06 – 01:08:35:16
Speaker 2
I feel like it was more like encouraged to like, you know, do a little outside, outside of school activities and things like that. So I do think that’s better here.
01:08:35:18 – 01:08:36:11
Speaker 4
01:08:38:04 – 01:09:04:12
Speaker 2
But I think it’s really like, I think the parents have to kind of instill like the importance of not just academics, but also like developing the EQ. Right? And if you if, I mean, most of the successful people that I know, it’s actually their not their intelligence is actually subpar. It’s I’m actually very disappointed usually. But their IQ is like, oh, through the roof, you know what I mean.
01:09:04:18 – 01:09:05:06
Speaker 4
01:09:05:10 – 01:09:07:10
Speaker 1
So that’s interesting.
01:09:07:10 – 01:09:16:10
Speaker 2
That IQ part isn’t that I feel like it’s what I lacked. Obviously not everyone to some people who have exceptional IQ. So.
01:09:16:12 – 01:09:31:00
Speaker 1
Well I think you know you mentioned like that that part of like you know moving from South Korea to the United States. So there was that additional challenge, of like, you know, your nervous system being impressed.
01:09:31:04 – 01:09:43:00
Speaker 2
I always wonder what how I would like, how my life would have turned out if I never moved here. Like, would I be a completely different person, like, personality wise? Like, I’m always curious.
01:09:43:00 – 01:10:10:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. I also wonder sometimes, like if I had been born in Korea, like, would I have, you know, lived my life as an overthinker, always feeling like I wasn’t enough. So yeah, I do think about that really often. And so I guess, like my last question for you is like, is knowing where the economy is headed like you are an entrepreneur?
01:10:10:14 – 01:10:43:06
Speaker 1
I know you didn’t finish college, but you have your B.S., and I think computer science. Right. And, like, you obviously made a very successful career out of, you know, the path that you did take. And so I’m wondering, like, going into the future, looking at the economy, looking at the state of the education systems here, around the world, whether it’s compulsory education or even higher education.
01:10:43:08 – 01:11:07:00
Speaker 1
What do you think? How do you think we need to be preparing our young people for the economy, in 2020, ten, 15, 20 years from now? In in comparison to what we what we learned maybe when we were in school,
01:11:07:01 – 01:11:11:00
Speaker 2
I, I studied engineering in school, but I never finished.
01:11:11:04 – 01:11:11:22
Speaker 1
Okay.
01:11:12:00 – 01:11:33:17
Speaker 2
But in engineering, a big part of engineering is actually computer science. So I took a lot of computer science courses. But the thing is, I didn’t learn anything in school. Like everything I learned in school, I’m not using like I had to. I either had I forgot everything or I had to relearn it, or like, I’m not using it at all, right?
01:11:33:17 – 01:11:56:01
Speaker 2
Like I learned like when I was in school, it was all about C plus plus. And then we started learning Java. But I’m not using any of that right now. Right. Like everybody uses Python and and even the way they that we used to code back then is so different from how people code now. So.
01:11:56:03 – 01:12:02:02
Speaker 2
I guess what I would say is.
01:12:02:04 – 01:12:22:12
Speaker 2
Here’s the thing. Right? Right now a lot of people are worried about the economy, like the uncertainties of the future and things like that. And I can see it. I can actually see people’s like standard of living going down, like like I can see with my own eyes. I can even like when I see homeless people and stuff like that.
01:12:22:12 – 01:12:22:18
Speaker 2
Right.
01:12:22:19 – 01:12:23:17
Speaker 4
01:12:23:18 – 01:12:29:19
Speaker 2
And, but the, the thing is.
01:12:29:21 – 01:13:01:20
Speaker 2
I used to worry about that all the time, like in the past maybe ten years or so. I think I stopped worrying about it because and I think the reason why is because we really need to learn. How to be resourceful and responsible for ourselves. Like I, I don’t know where, I don’t know when it’s started building, but throughout the last ten, 15 years, as I’ve built my business, I’ve I’ve become really confident in myself and my capabilities.
01:13:01:22 – 01:13:43:04
Speaker 2
And I think, you know why? Because I think I’ve been in so many situations in my life where where I’m like, oh, to a situation where people would be like, I’ll this it’s over. Like it’s it’s like rock bottom, right? Like, oh, there’s no way I’m going to get out of this, right? And sometimes, like in a small way where I have this huge deadline coming up and I have no time, but then, like, somehow I’ll stay up all night and somehow, like, miraculously make it happen or, you know, like or like I have no money to pay my employees, then somehow I’ll pull all the strings that somehow, like borrow money or whatever it
01:13:43:04 – 01:14:02:23
Speaker 2
is and figure it out. And then, like, so I’ve gotten out of so many situations like that where I’ve figured it out that I’m so confident in myself. Now that you can, you can drop me off in the middle of an island. I’m not a survivor tactics guy or anything like that. You drop me in the middle of an island with a bunch of people, I’ll figure it out and I’ll.
01:14:03:01 – 01:14:25:15
Speaker 2
I’ll figure out how to survive in there. Right? Like, I don’t know how, but I believe that I can somehow figure that out, that that kind of thing. And I just feel like I wish everybody had that because I think once you have that, you won’t really worry about the economy or you want really worry about like, I, I just, I it doesn’t matter.
01:14:25:15 – 01:14:29:04
Speaker 2
Like if we, if we go into an apocalypse, let’s say we have.
01:14:29:06 – 01:14:30:23
Speaker 3
You know, some civil.
01:14:30:23 – 01:14:35:04
Speaker 2
War and we’re going through an apocalypse and we’re living in this mad Max world, right?
01:14:35:06 – 01:14:36:02
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:14:36:04 – 01:14:42:10
Speaker 3
I think I’ll figure it out. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you put me in.
01:14:42:10 – 01:15:06:22
Speaker 2
North Korea, I think I’ll figure it out. I just, you know, and I think that comes from, like, just knowing, like, having some sort of a faith belief in yourself that you can figure it out. That’s the like, because you need that courage. Right. And then to knowing how to be resourceful, meaning not depending on what like it’s so stupid.
01:15:06:22 – 01:15:37:05
Speaker 2
People are like, I’ll become an engineer. Right? Okay. What if we go into apocalypse? There’s no computers like that. Skill has no value at all. Right? So instead of focusing on skills, like you said, like the meta skills. Right? Like, I think the meta skills are probably way more important in life than skills, because. So I don’t know how to I don’t know what that exactly is, but that thing like learning how to be resourceful in any situation.
01:15:37:07 – 01:16:04:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, it kind of sounds like, you know, you’re saying that your courage and your confidence came from you building competence, and you learning self-reliance, self-efficacy by starting failing and understanding that you can get through anything, even from rock bottom, you know. Right. So it’s like.
01:16:04:22 – 01:16:33:13
Speaker 2
And to do that, I think it’s also related to critical thinking. I think because I think the reason why most people can’t solve problems, when I look at it like even somebody is like, oh, I can’t build this well, and they’re like stuck in blah blah. And when I come in, usually because I’m, I guess looking at from an outside perspective, I’m like, oh, instead of like, they’ll be like, oh, I’m trying to make this function in, PHP and blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
01:16:33:15 – 01:17:03:13
Speaker 2
And I’m like, oh, why don’t you try it in JavaScript? And it’s like, that’s something they haven’t even thought of, right? So it’s it’s kind of like that where when you’re so focused on just learning one skill or step by step instruction and memorization and things like that, you’re so rigid that you I don’t think it’s hard for you to see the bigger picture and see outside of the box when most things in life actually the best solutions are outside of the box.
01:17:03:15 – 01:17:43:06
Speaker 1
And I think this is where, I know we didn’t talk about it in this conversation, so I’ll link it. But I think, you know, even in on lessons you were talking about like all the different things that you experimented with, right? And all of the different things and, like trying to do something different. And so, yeah, and also innovation really comes from like having a lot of constraints, and like not having all of the things, all of the resources that you might otherwise have.
01:17:43:08 – 01:17:54:16
Speaker 1
So I guess, like you’re talking about experimentation and failing, and that really is sort of like, you know, the parents of innovation in many kind of way.
01:17:54:18 – 01:18:09:07
Speaker 2
So like, I’ll give you a good one. Yeah. Now, you see, on carousels, like maybe not people don’t really big carousels anymore. But like for a couple of years everybody started doing those carousels where it’s like a timeline.
01:18:09:08 – 01:18:10:22
Speaker 1
Oh yeah.
01:18:11:00 – 01:18:32:00
Speaker 2
Some kind of timeline. Right. And I’ve never seen that before. I was the first one to do it. Everybody did the slides like almost like presentation with the text, the regular thing. But I’ve never seen somebody do that. And so that was kind of me thinking outside the box and be like, okay, instead of just following the regular carousel format, what can I do?
01:18:32:00 – 01:18:55:08
Speaker 2
Something that’s like and like once you think outside the box, once you’re not attached to the medium and how everybody else is doing, you can actually be like, okay, here’s a, here’s the tool I have, which is ten slides that you can swipe with, which adds up to be one long slice. What’s something I can do with this?
01:18:55:10 – 01:19:18:12
Speaker 2
Right. Timeline or, you know, like and also, I love the fact that what, you know, in carousel in video, you’re forced to watch something. You have no control over it. But in carousel, you have the control. So. So like, I can. So I love, like doing cliffhangers and carousels and things like that. And that’s something that I see a lot of people doing or I don’t see anybody doing.
01:19:18:12 – 01:19:39:05
Speaker 2
So those kind of things like it’s just yeah, just, just there’s no one solution. Right. So and being resourceful is just like, okay, here’s my goal. I’m like, what are all the different ways I can achieve that goal? Because it’s not just one way, but I think we’re just taught one way right now.
01:19:39:05 – 01:19:39:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:19:39:16 – 01:19:40:20
Speaker 2
In school.
01:19:40:22 – 01:19:57:00
Speaker 1
No, it’s totally true. It’s really just about finding the answer. So yeah. Is there anything that you don’t want the next generation to learn the hard way or any kind of last pieces of advice you’d like to leave us with?
01:19:57:02 – 01:20:05:13
Speaker 2
I, I really think that we should ban social media for kids.
01:20:05:15 – 01:20:08:19
Speaker 3
Because, like, I, because I think.
01:20:08:21 – 01:20:17:05
Speaker 2
What every generation is learning, like, one of the things I didn’t like about Korea is, is everything is a set of simple.
01:20:17:07 – 01:20:18:00
Speaker 4
01:20:18:02 – 01:20:47:21
Speaker 2
There’s a very, yeah, there’s like the status, the importance of status symbol, like personalized car, house and yeah, what you wear, your purse and all of that. Right. And I’m starting to actually see that in the younger generations now. Which like what I love about actually America is that people weren’t like that. Yeah, they can be a billionaire and wearing like, some, you know, sweaty sweatshirt and t shirt with your flip flops.
01:20:47:21 – 01:21:13:01
Speaker 2
And, but now I’m starting to see like a lot of people, like, you know, like they envy, like people with Lamborghinis, you know, all of that. And I just, you know, I, I think that kind of like spiritual journey, I think that that’s not being taught in school at all. Right. The whole maybe they should teach like yoga and meditation in school because, like, I think that’s so important.
01:21:13:01 – 01:21:41:19
Speaker 2
Just like getting in touch with yourself. Like, just really knowing what you want, who you are, so that you’re not distracted by the outside. I mean, that’s already so hard to do as a teenager. But you just, like, put social media and like I, you know, that is one thing. One good thing about, uniforms is that when you’re wearing uniforms, you don’t see that disparity as much like somebody with the Louis Vuitton or whatever it is.
01:21:41:19 – 01:22:14:04
Speaker 2
Right. So so everybody’s kind of like, you’re not distracted by that, right? So but now with social media, it’s just like it’s like putting fuel to fire I think. So I’m really I, I’m not kidding when I said I’m really worried about the next generation that, you know, like and also like this whole thing about now, you know, the whole like now parenting parents have like learned that, okay, there’s there’s childhood trauma and all of these things.
01:22:14:06 – 01:22:36:09
Speaker 2
And I see a lot of parents also overcorrecting you know what I mean. So so maybe they’re making their child too fragile or I don’t know, that’s why I’m like, I’m so I have so much, respect for parents because I don’t know how I would deal with that. Like, every move, every word I say, every move I make, I’m like, I’m going to be overthinking.
01:22:36:09 – 01:22:42:19
Speaker 2
I’m like, am I doing the right thing? Okay? Is this going to cause something else in the future? Like, like I wouldn’t know how to do it, you know what I mean?
01:22:42:20 – 01:23:09:12
Speaker 1
100%. And it’s it’s a struggle. It really is a struggle. And that’s why I have this whole podcast, which actually you’re sort of kind of responsible for finally, like lighting the fire in me to start this podcast, because you yelled at me, you’re like, just do the damn thing. Like, stop telling me you want to be a writer and then not have a blog to start the project.
01:23:09:12 – 01:23:12:02
Speaker 1
So yes, for anybody listening.
01:23:12:06 – 01:23:48:03
Speaker 2
That’s awesome that you you made it to 50 episode. Like, I’m sure it’s more than 50 now. And that’s so rare. Like I’m going to do a post tomorrow and it goes like this. Like there are certain things in life, like a college degree doesn’t prove you’re smart. But one thing it does prove is that it proves that you’re you’re disciplined and like, it’s the same thing with I think, you know, like having 50 episodes in a podcast that doesn’t prove that, you know, you were successful or anything like that.
01:23:48:03 – 01:24:06:06
Speaker 2
But what it does prove is that you have you have discipline. And I think that’s so important. And I think it’s important for you to prove to yourself that you you have discipline, because a lot of people just are so used to giving up, giving up, giving up, giving up so, so many things in life. And you do that long enough.
01:24:06:07 – 01:24:24:02
Speaker 2
It starts getting to your head and feel like, oh, I’m, I’m just I’m a quitter, you know, like so that’s why even, even if, like, if you said like a New Year’s resolution, like even if you’re just going to the gym for ten minutes to just keep doing it, just to prove to yourself that I’m not a quitter.
01:24:24:02 – 01:24:28:10
Speaker 2
I think it’s important.
01:24:28:12 – 01:24:37:09
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.