Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with David, a data scientist, podcaster, and educator—about his education journey from Hungary to the UK, and software developer to what he calls a “data generalist”. We talk about the subjects he excelled in at school, why the words “Industrial Revolution” brings back nightmares for him, and why he compares his brain to a Hoover—as in, the vacuum. We also discuss why it’s important to define the purpose of education, and how setting it up to prepare us for real world relevancy is a better direction for its future. This is a fascinating conversation between two neurodivergent people—if I say so myself—and I think you should listen to us.
Here is our conversation.
Auto-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:12 – 00:00:26:05
Speaker 1
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:26:07 – 00:00:47:19
Speaker 1
I design curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:47:21 – 00:01:17:16
Speaker 1
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with David, a data scientist, podcaster, and educator, about his education journey from Hungary to the UK and software developer to what he calls a data generalist.
00:01:17:18 – 00:01:40:00
Speaker 1
We talk about the subjects he excelled in at school, why the words Industrial revolution brings back nightmares for him, and why he compares his brain to a hoover as in the vacuum. We also discuss why it’s important to define the purpose of education, and how setting it up to prepare us for real world relevancy is a better direction for its future.
00:01:40:01 – 00:01:53:04
Speaker 1
This is a fascinating conversation between two neurodivergent people. If I say so myself, and I think you should listen to us. Here is our conversation.
00:01:53:06 – 00:02:04:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, that’s a good one. What kind of child was I to think about this sometimes? Probably quite annoying.
00:02:04:14 – 00:02:05:06
Speaker 1
To.
00:02:05:19 – 00:02:23:13
Speaker 2
To to just. I was quite. I think I was probably quite a lot like, quite full on. And as an adult, I think I’ve, I think this is typical of, like, neurodivergent people as well. Like, you know, you sort of come up with a, a persona that seems to be more sort of palatable for everyone. Yeah.
00:02:23:13 – 00:02:42:18
Speaker 2
And, and and, you know, now I’m I’m an adult, allegedly. It’s, you know, time to rediscover, like, who I actually am kind of thing. But, yeah, as a child, I, I did a lot of, of talking. So I think it was that that’s probably where it came from. I probably wouldn’t have shut up like any time.
00:02:42:18 – 00:03:07:08
Speaker 2
And that was, you know, I was quite a good student, but, but like, I was quite disruptive in the classroom. Not not in a, you know, violent, aggressive way, but. And it just sort of just didn’t shut up and wanted to answer every question. And I kind of treated the classroom, I think, because if it was just me and the teacher, which I probably would have preferred in some way, but the teachers obviously didn’t like that they had to manage 20 other students.
00:03:07:10 – 00:03:26:14
Speaker 2
So every report card that I ever took home was like, yeah, he’s doing great, but it would be great if he wouldn’t, like, distract everyone all the time. And so there was a lot of that. So I think from, from one part of messaging was that like, yeah, everybody needs to just be quiet and sit still and just crack on with chat, which didn’t really work for me.
00:03:26:15 – 00:03:39:05
Speaker 2
I definitely I don’t think I, I don’t think I knew this at the time, but I certainly didn’t like, want to learn the same way as other people or learn to the same way as other people. No. No, I’m getting to they’re getting there, you know.
00:03:39:07 – 00:03:59:08
Speaker 1
Well, I’m curious about this aspect. I wonder, did you know, I think there was a hint of this in what you just just said, but, when did you find out that you were a neurodivergent? And who was the first person to know? Was it like your caregivers? Did they know?
00:03:59:10 – 00:04:21:11
Speaker 2
No, nothing like that. I’m. I’m still not officially diagnosed with anything just because here in the UK, it takes years to let waitlists are just, obscene at the moment. I mean, we’re talking like 4 or 5 years, from your first referral to get seen by a professional, unless you pay privately. But then there’s other problems around, around the funding.
00:04:22:09 – 00:04:53:11
Speaker 2
So this is just something that that’s happened in adulthood, and I’m still on the waitlist waiting for something. But I think it was probably about four years ago, so. Well, well into adulthood that this, this topic even came up for me as a as a thing. And there’s a blogger that I follow who I’ve been following for years, and he’s been writing stuff that I’ve always really, really sort of, felt understood by his writings about, like, you know, he wrote things like, oh, when you procrastinate, it’s not because you’re lazy.
00:04:53:11 – 00:05:14:13
Speaker 2
It’s because you’re, you know, your brain’s overworked or it’s a bit, you know, there’s some other things going on. And I was reading that like, oh, okay, maybe that’s why. Maybe that’s why I feel really guilty at the end of a weekend for relaxing instead of doing something productive and, and so I was reading his work and eventually he wrote one poster like it was called something like what this blog has always been about.
00:05:14:15 – 00:05:32:17
Speaker 2
And I read the post, I was like, okay, well, what’s going on? And he’s like, oh yeah, by the way, everything I’ve ever talked about, all my difficulties. Turns out it’s it was undiagnosed ADHD the whole time. And, I mean, he he was like in his 40s when he discovered this. And I read this, I was like, okay, well, that’s I didn’t know anything about ADHD.
00:05:32:19 – 00:05:49:18
Speaker 2
So maybe some tropes about children bouncing off the walls, but that’s probably all I knew at that point. And and I looked into it and he wrote a piece that was like, okay, here’s all the stuff that I think is attributable to to this kind of brain. I read it, I was like, oh, that’s me. Oh, maybe I should look into this thing.
00:05:49:18 – 00:06:10:18
Speaker 2
And then, you know, since then, I’ve recognized that this is a very typical journey for a lot of people who went under the radar in childhood. If they were in an environment that had no understanding of neurodivergent, which was in a lot of environments when I when I was a child, I mean, now I think children get a lot more attention, at least in, in some places.
00:06:10:19 – 00:06:18:23
Speaker 2
And people are maybe quicker to recognize that there might be some, some aspect of that in a child if, if they’re behaving in certain ways.
00:06:19:01 – 00:06:50:19
Speaker 1
Right. Absolutely. And I think like, the, the understanding like we have that language now, as a society, especially during the pandemic, I think when everyone was like, you know, forced to sort of think about their internal life and, you know, the lack of social connection, that really I think, yeah, percolated a lot of these conversations, where everyone was kind of like, oh, my gosh, this is what I’ve been struggling with my entire life.
00:06:50:19 – 00:07:30:03
Speaker 1
And here are other people. So I’m kind of, I want to backtrack a little bit, to understanding what it was like for you at school and at home. And, like, your social life sort of, with your peers or, people younger or older than you, like, what were some of the expectations that the adults, had of you, when you were younger or what were some of the expectations that you felt like you needed to conform to, to sort of belong or fit in with your social groups?
00:07:31:16 – 00:07:56:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I was, I was always a good student. But it wasn’t because I put a lot of effort in. So I was very lucky in that sense. Again, I don’t think this is a unique, story for, for the neurodivergent. Sometimes that sort of things just stuck. And I think what I ended up doing is becoming very good at passing tests.
00:07:56:09 – 00:08:24:03
Speaker 2
And I became very good at like, repeating back what I think the teachers wanted to hear. And so I became very good at writing essays, because all I had to do was remember the main talking points and that they were interested in. And I guess the main skill there was intuiting what they wanted to hear. And, and so I don’t think I would have been able to remember any of it, not long after, because I wasn’t particularly interested in that.
00:08:24:03 – 00:08:55:01
Speaker 2
But I was honestly interested in in getting good marks, and I didn’t want to seem like I’m falling behind or anything. And so, yeah, I think I developed the skill of of being able to, to repeat back what, what they wanted to hear rather than actually learning things in a, in a sort of positive way. And as you see, I just thinking back to my, to that education, there’s so many things that I wish I could have just been let loose on whatever I was interested in at the time, because that’s just how I learn best.
00:08:55:03 – 00:09:17:01
Speaker 2
Like, if I’m motivated, I just want to hyperfocus on that thing until I’m bored of it. But then it’s obviously like, okay, we’re doing this for an hour. Oh, it’s this subject for an hour, or we’re doing some completely different for an hour, and yeah, that that didn’t motivate me. And so there’s so many things that, that, that sort of maybe I won’t say killed my curiosity, but probably not far off.
00:09:17:03 – 00:09:27:10
Speaker 2
Like, okay, so this environment is not for me to explore things on my own terms. This is just to to jump through a bunch of hoops so that people give me a pat on the head at the end.
00:09:27:12 – 00:09:52:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, that sounds about right. Or relatable. I’m curious about, was it easy for you to make friendships or, have close relationships with people your age? Or were you more closer to, I think you said earlier, like, you wish you could have had just the teacher in you in the classroom. I wonder if, like, you had a connection with older people.
00:09:52:16 – 00:09:55:19
Speaker 1
I’m curious about those, like, social interactions.
00:09:55:21 – 00:10:20:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting. No, I, I think I, I was always drawn to, to adults more to when forming relationships. I mean, I had, I had, friendships in my peer groups. I made friends quite easily because I was quite chatty and sociable and extroverted. So that wasn’t too hard. I probably did end up annoying a lot of those people as well, but I think at that age, it’s kind of you just you just get on with it, don’t you?
00:10:20:21 – 00:10:39:15
Speaker 2
Because you’re all stuck in a classroom. So if someone’s a bit annoying, it doesn’t really matter. You can still be still be friends and go to each other’s house and and play games and stuff. So yeah, that wasn’t so much of an issue. But I definitely liked adult company because there was just and I don’t know if this is because I was I was definitely not mature for my age.
00:10:39:15 – 00:10:42:16
Speaker 2
So it’s not that it’s it’ll be something else.
00:10:42:18 – 00:10:43:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:10:44:16 – 00:10:56:06
Speaker 2
But yeah, there was something about about hanging out with adults and, and I did befriend a few of my teachers, and we’ve been on good terms ever since because that that’s just sort of. Yeah, that’s sort of organically happened.
00:10:56:08 – 00:11:17:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. For sure. And, you know, I kind of am relating to this. I feel like I was always more drawn to adult figures. I always kind of felt out of place with my peers, and I just always felt, like, inadequate in some kind of way. But I don’t think that the word inadequate or a synonym has come up.
00:11:18:02 – 00:11:41:23
Speaker 1
On your end. I think you’ve you’ve used the word annoying a couple times. And so I’m really curious about, like, where that metacognition came from. Like someone must have signaled or someone must have said it, or you must have, intuited that, like, you were not like the others. And so, I don’t know, I’m planting some seeds here.
00:11:41:23 – 00:12:06:11
Speaker 1
Maybe it’ll, like, come up in the conversation, but, Yeah, if you do remember any stories of, like, either being bullied or like, you know, being directly or indirectly ostracized or, you know, kind of like saying like, oh, yeah, you’re not quite like the others and we don’t like you because of that. Or does anything come up?
00:12:06:12 – 00:12:30:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, it wasn’t I didn’t have that. Okay. Typical neurodivergent experience of being of being ostracized. I think there’s a few elements of that. I mean, I went to school, I had very small class sizes, and we were usually there for years. And so we sort of you sort of coexisted and there weren’t really cliques to the extent that you might have in maybe bigger settings.
00:12:30:04 – 00:12:50:15
Speaker 2
There might be something about that. And I don’t know if I would have been able to articulate it at the time that other people find me annoying. I think it’s just looking back. And I think actually that must have been quite full on, to, to have like, me chatting away or, you know, the whole time.
00:12:50:17 – 00:13:04:19
Speaker 2
But yeah, I don’t remember any specific incident of being like, told blank point blank to my face, you know? Okay, you need to shut up now or anything like that, except from the teachers. But that’s because they needed to manage a classroom.
00:13:04:21 – 00:13:07:19
Speaker 1
Right? And I think, Go ahead.
00:13:07:21 – 00:13:08:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, no. Yeah.
00:13:09:01 – 00:13:33:18
Speaker 1
Well, I know that you went on to, becoming an educator yourself, so I’d love to sort of now, like, jump ahead a little bit and ask you kind of like about what kind of. I mean, I know that, you went into, like, like data science and, web development and, now you’re you have a podcast about AI.
00:13:34:00 – 00:14:00:08
Speaker 1
So you’re very techie. And so I, I’m imagining here that, you know, you must have excelled in the sciences and in the maths and, you know, like, I’m just kind of wondering about that skill trajectory, like, you know, what kind of classes did you do well in and what kind of positive feedback did you receive from your peers along that path?
00:14:01:00 – 00:14:21:08
Speaker 2
It was definitely more of a Stem student. I mean, I was definitely, top of the class in maths. Most of my school days. It’s just it was something that interested me and it came pretty naturally. And, and again, I also figured out, like, what do you need to get good marks in this thing? I mean, in maths is pretty.
00:14:21:10 – 00:14:42:17
Speaker 2
It’s more clear cut, right? You either get the right answer or you don’t. You might get some marks for getting halfway there, but but things, things that I struggled with more were like literature and like if you had to like, you know, do some sort of, analysis of poetry, I always stumped me because there was more subjectivity, you know, it wasn’t always clear what I was supposed to say.
00:14:42:19 – 00:14:55:00
Speaker 2
And so I don’t think it’s necessarily one of my talents. So, yeah, those subjects is like, I’ll just wait for someone else or the teacher to tell me what to think, and then I’ll write that down.
00:14:55:01 – 00:14:56:15
Speaker 1
Oh that’s interesting.
00:14:56:17 – 00:15:16:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, I never, I never like, never got on with those subjects so much. But then, you know, maths and science were much more my wheelhouse. And, and so in my undergraduate degree, actually, I studied computer games programing because I thought I wanted to get into video games. But yeah, I did some of it, and I was like, oh, actually, this isn’t quite.
00:15:17:00 – 00:15:35:16
Speaker 2
I thought we were just going to make fun little games, but actually we’re doing things like calculating the maths of light, bouncing off surfaces. And I don’t want to do that. I want somebody else to have done that for me. So I got through it. I didn’t enjoy a lot of the subjects so much, but I did develop a love for programing, which I didn’t do a lot of before then.
00:15:36:07 – 00:15:53:18
Speaker 2
So so that was really helpful for me because then I became a software developer. Web developer. I worked with databases, and I was like, okay, this is my world. This is definitely where I fit in. And you know, by then when you’ve got a job, you think it’s less about like, peer to peer competition and more about you just trying out, trying to get the job done.
00:15:53:18 – 00:16:16:08
Speaker 2
So there wasn’t that pressure that you might felt at school, university and. Yeah. And so eventually I was like, I actually like to work with data rather than just writing software. Because really what I, what I’ve only recently realized, which is kind of odd that it’s taken me so long, is that what I really like to do is solve problems, and it doesn’t really matter what what kind of problems they are, what tools they are.
00:16:16:16 – 00:16:35:23
Speaker 2
You know, even if it’s like, how do we build a specific Lego object with my son? You know, even that’s a problem that needs to be solved. And that that’s where I really, you know, enjoy enjoy things. And so now, you know, the latest vehicle for that was, was data analysis. But now now educate. And so I teach people how to program and analyze data.
00:16:36:01 – 00:16:44:22
Speaker 2
But again, there’s almost the problem of like, how do you solve the problem of people having to learn this stuff. And so that that’s what I think about more these days.
00:16:45:07 – 00:17:16:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, so I want to ask you about that. So I don’t so I consider myself, a problem solver as well. But. But I don’t feel like our skills are aligned. I like I, I can solve almost every problem that, that I enjoy. Okay, this is starting to sound really vague, but,
00:17:17:01 – 00:17:47:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, like, logic is not really my thing. Like, I have, like, a clear internal logic, and I understand my world really well. And so, you know, when I’m telling stories, it makes sense, like it’s a problem that I need to solve. Like there needs to be a set up and there needs to be a payoff. Like and like graphic design, like, I understand how to solve these problems, but I’m trying to sort of I’ve always been trying to understand.
00:17:47:05 – 00:18:16:13
Speaker 1
This idea of like a singular right answer. I have never been good at that. I’m a divergent thinker, not a convergent thinker. Like naturally. And so when you say those are the types of skills and like, that you’re trying to solve right now, it’s how to teach people these skills. I’m wondering like, what do you think it is about solving problems in that very logical way?
00:18:16:15 – 00:18:28:05
Speaker 1
Like, what are the skills that you possess that, if I’m, you know, I’m trying to get at the question, but I think maybe you understand where I’m going with it. Yes.
00:18:28:06 – 00:18:37:17
Speaker 2
Yes. Well, I think it’s probably not as different as you think. I mean, I certainly don’t enjoy problems where you’re trying to just get to a predefined correct answer.
00:18:37:17 – 00:18:38:03
Speaker 1
Okay.
00:18:38:06 – 00:19:09:20
Speaker 2
And like one of the things I love about data analysis is that you give the same piece of work to two analysts, and they’ll come up with different answers. And I one of the things I like most about the work is there’s so much uncertainty. And a lot of people are not comfortable with it, which is, I think, maybe where a divergent brain works well in this realm because, you know, we’re okay with holding 2000 simultaneous thoughts in our head, you know, whereas people are like, no, no, I because sometimes I get students asking me like, oh no, but I just need a checklist of what I need to do to analyze data.
00:19:09:20 – 00:19:30:00
Speaker 2
And I just want to go away and learn that checklist and like, no, no, no, no, no, this is you’re in the wrong career, wrong, wrong place for that. This is totally not that kind of work. So it does require creativity. It does require, lateral thinking. And so it’s the, the really super techie stuff. I was never that interested in either.
00:19:30:05 – 00:19:47:22
Speaker 2
And so I think my path has gone, oh, that’s what I want to do, the really techie stuff. And then I saw the real techie stuff. I was like, yeah, it’s a bit too specific, a bit too narrow. And again, I didn’t I couldn’t articulate it at the time, I don’t think. But now looking back, it’s clear that that’s what I didn’t enjoy about some of those topics.
00:19:48:00 – 00:20:10:13
Speaker 2
And I think going into data analysis, I’ve brought in that again into like problems that have many possible solutions. And how do you narrow that down and how do you find pieces that fit? And I think there are some problems that are, my brain is probably better suited to, and there’ll be problems that your brain is better suited to, like graphic design problems are definitely not something I would be able to, to solve.
00:20:12:02 – 00:20:28:22
Speaker 2
And anything that has, I think, more of a subjective artistic output. I think I probably would struggle with more. Whereas like, okay, data analysis, you can have different answers, but you’re not it’s not going to be like one answer seven and the other answers bananas. You know, you’re not going to be that off. You’re going to be right.
00:20:28:22 – 00:20:34:18
Speaker 2
You’re going to have to be in the right ballpark somehow, right?
00:20:34:20 – 00:20:36:03
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:20:36:05 – 00:20:55:17
Speaker 2
So I think I think problem solving is is something I, I’ve seen a lot of neurodivergent people are good at. But they might be good at solving different kinds of problems or solving them different ways. But it’s the very general underlying ability to take those disparate ideas and connect them up. I think that’s where we would probably share a lot of common.
00:20:55:19 – 00:20:57:09
Speaker 2
We have a lot of commonality.
00:20:57:11 – 00:21:34:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, absolutely. That that makes really, really good sense. I wonder about so there’s this project that I’ve been kind of trying to, express since I was in university, so almost 20 years ago. Which is to really understand how people’s brains work. And, you know, I don’t mean, like, very sciency, I, I know a little bit about neuroscience, and it’s just not categorized in a way that makes sense to me.
00:21:34:14 – 00:22:08:10
Speaker 1
And so I’ve been trying to categorize people, based on how it makes sense in my own brain. And so, like, I really enjoy collecting and organizing things like, you know, whether they’re gems or whatever they are. And so I’ve been really wanting to understand how people’s brains work and how, you know, they how they can be utilized to solve really pressing issues in the world, I guess.
00:22:08:12 – 00:22:26:09
Speaker 1
And so, this is a long way of asking you, if you were to explain how your brain works to people, like what images, what patterns, what kind of processes kind of come to mind?
00:22:28:12 – 00:22:52:18
Speaker 2
That’s a great question. And I, I share that that interests with you. One of the things I’ve, I’ve been thinking about a lot recently is like, what are the different ways that people solve problems? And it’s very interesting to see how other people would approach a problem versus how I would do it. And one of the things I’ve been really interested in is when I get the chance to watch someone else at work.
00:22:52:20 – 00:23:16:15
Speaker 2
Yes, like in their field. It’s one of my favorite things to do. And I this is going to be very tangential, but also not, there’s a great series of videos on YouTube from a chess grandmaster who talks, he’s called Daniel Narrow Desk, and he does. He does something called a speedrun where he goes, he creates a new account on like chess.com or something and plays people and obviously beats them all because he’s his top grandmaster.
00:23:16:18 – 00:23:39:11
Speaker 2
But he talks his thought process out loud the whole time. And so you get you get games and games and games where he’s like, right, I’m thinking of this move. I don’t want to make this because of this and this because. And it’s just for me that makes so much sense to learn that way. If if he wrote a book where it was broken down into neatly categorized topics and chapters, I would buy it and it would it would gather dust on the shelf.
00:23:39:22 – 00:24:06:13
Speaker 2
I that’s one thing I’ve, I’ve realized is I don’t do well with structured learning. Yeah. I need a goal, like a project that I want to to do or something I want to build. And then I will happily go away and learn all the things I need to do for that specific project. But if I have something in mind, like an end goal up front, then I’m much more motivated to learn whatever it is, even if it’s something very dry.
00:24:06:15 – 00:24:43:15
Speaker 2
But if you just give me a textbook of like, oh, this whole area of expertise would be cool to put into my brain, I don’t have a process for that. I was never good at that. So it’s it’s definitely motivation based. Definitely some kind of end goal oriented, focus is is what helps me, and I just find, like, my brain is quite good, I think at seeing someone do something in a particular context and recognizing the pieces that would work for me in whatever I’m doing, and just being able to disregard some of the other stuff.
00:24:44:06 – 00:25:10:19
Speaker 2
Right. So, like, I don’t know if playing chess probably can’t teach you too much about data analysis, but if I thought about that, there’s probably pieces there where you could be like, oh, actually, there’s some problem solving elements there that would work in a completely different domain, and they’re just obvious to me. And again, I’m only just learning that it’s not obvious to other people, which is obviously is obviously the case because the education system would be set up very differently if it was exactly how everybody else thought.
00:25:10:21 – 00:25:41:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, no, 100%. And you know, what that makes me think of is, I mean, like, our brains are all wired, based on our very unique experiences. So it really makes sense that the patterns that you see are not the same ones that other people would see. And, so as you were talking about the way that your brain processes information and how you’re very goal oriented, it kind of reminds me of like the interest based nervous system.
00:25:41:19 – 00:26:11:17
Speaker 1
I don’t know if you’ve heard of that. But it’s very much, kind of like, I can’t remember the author. I’ll share it with you later. But, they talk about how people with ADHD have an interest based nervous system. And so, the ways that motivate them are things like, you know, trying to turn it into play or, curiosity based, like, there are lots of these things.
00:26:12:06 – 00:26:48:16
Speaker 1
And I was just thinking like, the way that I actually learn is like, hands on, like, I have to actually experience it through my body. And like, I remember there was a period of time where I was knitting, and I remember, like, everything that I was learning and listening to was just better stored in my memory, because I think when I work with my hands, like my body is present, and I’m processing in a, in a way that is that works for my brain.
00:26:49:07 – 00:27:13:19
Speaker 1
And so I also noticed that, like, if I read something in a book about acting, I’m not going to learn it as well. When I actually push myself to go to improv and learn it for myself. And so I’m somebody who has to learn things the hard way. I can’t I mean, it’s not always true, but, yeah, more often than not, I have to learn it hands on.
00:27:13:19 – 00:27:40:17
Speaker 1
So I’m really fascinated by how you’re talking about this issue. And I also explain to people that my brain is like, it takes pictures, right? So like I see a lot of, depth and, A lot of images and patterns and lights and shadows and like, it’s topographical in a way. So I organize information hierarchically.
00:27:41:15 – 00:27:56:08
Speaker 1
And so I’m wondering for you, like, visually how if you, if your brain was like any kind of device or anything existing in the world, what would you compare it to?
00:27:56:10 – 00:28:19:05
Speaker 2
Oh, I mean, I definitely relate to remembering things. If I was doing something with my hands at the time, like podcasts that I listen to while doing the dishes, I will almost certainly remember more from than the ones that I listened to when I was sitting on the train commuting to work. I mean, that’s that’s definitely, definitely true.
00:28:19:05 – 00:28:24:20
Speaker 2
And I it has to be hands on for me as well. It’s interesting because with data analysis you don’t get hands on like physically with your hands.
00:28:24:20 – 00:28:25:12
Speaker 1
Right.
00:28:26:00 – 00:28:47:08
Speaker 2
But still the act of like just getting in and experiencing a problem where you’re a bit lost and trying to find your way out of it, that that has a lot more appeal to me and a lot more stickiness, than, then trying to learn, like, through a step by step methodical book or something. So what device?
00:28:47:10 – 00:29:13:05
Speaker 2
I don’t know it. It’s a very good question. I mean, the first image that came to my mind is a bit like a Hoover, you know, sort of hoover everything up. But also they’re they’re but it’s the hoover with the, like, a filter that doesn’t always work properly. Do you know what I mean? Like you, there’s loads of inputs, but you’re not guaranteed to remember any particular part of it.
00:29:13:07 – 00:29:38:19
Speaker 2
So I, I, I, I’ve definitely been less, less good at, at being, intentional about how I remember things. So it’s just like, oh, I’ll just read this, I’ll listen to that. I’ll do this, I’ll do that. And then something will stick through some process. And I think disentangling that’ll probably be very useful for the future, figuring out just just how and when my filter works the way it does.
00:29:38:22 – 00:29:51:13
Speaker 2
It’s like, why do I remember certain levels of a video game? I haven’t played for 25 years, but I don’t remember what I had for breakfast or this thing that I read in an article yesterday. Yeah, I can see you laughing. Yeah, this is this, this is the problem.
00:29:51:13 – 00:30:22:08
Speaker 1
So in our eternal struggle, it is so relatable. I mean, I cannot I can’t relate more. And it’s just so funny. And I really love the visual of, like, a vacuum of just, like, soaking in everything. And actually, that’s something that I have told people is that, you know, I think of a funnel, with like, a very narrow opening to some container.
00:30:23:01 – 00:30:49:05
Speaker 1
I felt like for me, school was really challenging because it just felt like they were over pouring. And, my opening was so narrow that things were just overfilling. And so I do very often still feel very overwhelmed. So I love what you said about I would love to figure out, you know, how to make the filter effective so you could disentangle.
00:30:49:06 – 00:31:21:22
Speaker 1
I feel exactly the same way. I would love to know about you navigating your career. I know you mentioned that. You know, you wanted to do computer games, programing. But then you sort of realized that you’re more divergent and you need more creativity. And so I’m kind of curious, like, what did you pivot to and how did you end up getting into, AI or being interested in that?
00:31:23:18 – 00:31:45:12
Speaker 2
You know, at the end, at the end of a period, people trying to recreate something of a story of what happened. I mean, a lot of it is like how sort of lucky accidents of getting involved in things. So when I was a software developer, the the company I worked for didn’t have a dedicated data team. So we as the programmers also had to do like the reporting internally in the business.
00:31:45:12 – 00:32:09:03
Speaker 2
And, and as I was a newbie, that kind of was given to me to do all those tasks. And it it wasn’t originally part of my remit, technically speaking, as a software developer. But, you know, at the time I was like, oh, just do whatever I’m still interested in. And all of it. And I just, I loved the fact that, people coming to us with a specific question that can be answered with the data that we have, and I could facilitate that.
00:32:09:03 – 00:32:29:11
Speaker 2
Like that was a lot more interesting to me because I was helping people with their own problems. Then it was like, okay, today’s task is to add a button to this web page that does blah, blah, blah. I think one of the reasons was that once you learn how to code something like a web page, you already know exactly what you need to do to add that button.
00:32:29:16 – 00:32:44:04
Speaker 2
It’s just a case of going through the motions and putting the right syntax and making sure it all works. But like I could see the solution up front and it was in my mind it was done even though the work wasn’t done, if that makes sense. And so with data work, it’s like, oh, I have absolutely no idea how to answer that question.
00:32:44:04 – 00:33:02:11
Speaker 2
Great. Let’s get started. Like, that’s much more interesting to me. And so I was drawn to that. And I don’t know if I’m happy. Accident. I read some article or this thing is now called data science. You should do data science. And so I got into that, I did a master’s program that was like one of the first in the country here in the UK to do this, to be specifically called data science.
00:33:02:11 – 00:33:19:00
Speaker 2
I mean, now every university is doing one. But this was, you know, a while back and, and again, again, just going into that, there was a lot of technical stuff. There’s a lot of maths, there’s a lot of formulae. And I was like, yeah, it’s a bit too technical for me, but I really like to solve problems with data.
00:33:19:00 – 00:33:36:12
Speaker 2
So let’s do that. And it turned out in the real world, you know, that’s more useful than maths. You don’t you don’t derive a lot of formulae in the real world. You actually you’re trying to just solve people’s problems. Anyway, and then I it’s just something that’s sort of tagged along. I mean, it’s just sort of something that is part of the industry.
00:33:36:12 – 00:33:55:10
Speaker 2
And, and again, it’s one of those things that I haven’t really dug into the technical details of it, because I find myself not that interested in the specific mathematical manipulations that make these machines. And I was always the same. I was like, I don’t really want to know how a car works. I just want to know how to drive it.
00:33:56:00 – 00:34:10:21
Speaker 2
To this day, if I have to do something like I need to change a bulb in a car, so I will have to look it up, because why would I know that? Because I was never interested in it. Yeah. So, yeah, even even with AI, it’s like, okay, I’m interested in what it can do and how we can use it.
00:34:10:21 – 00:34:34:10
Speaker 2
And some of the cool creative applications I’ve seen of it. But the internal mechanics and like, you know, somebody else is working on that, I, they don’t need me to do that. Yeah. So I think it’s always been that, I think it’s just been being drawn to a more general, broader thing level of concepts or something, rather than the intricate details of some specific thing.
00:34:34:12 – 00:34:42:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think that’s just sort of what navigated my career, even though I didn’t really again, didn’t articulate that at any point until until now, looking back at it.
00:34:42:04 – 00:35:12:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, that’s that’s really good information. I’m wondering, so a really big focus of this podcast is really understanding, like, you know, a lot of the education system hasn’t really been reformed since the Industrial Revolution. And so, like, the problems that the school systems were designed for are no longer the problems that we have today or will be, you know, going forward.
00:35:12:17 – 00:35:43:16
Speaker 1
And like, I think our world is like expanding technologically by, exponentially fast. And so I’m trying to understand, well, you know, my daughter is almost three years old, but I really want to be able to prepare her, to, to set her up for success, in the world that we’re heading in. And so I’m wondering for you, what do you think?
00:35:45:08 – 00:36:07:20
Speaker 1
Were looking back. What do you wish you had learned more about or wish what kind of skills do you wish you could have practiced? Or what kind of, foundational supports about the real world do you wish you had when you were still in school before you entered the real world?
00:36:07:22 – 00:36:33:18
Speaker 2
I think looking back, one of the things I struggled with a lot, with a lot of the subjects, was the lack of real world relevance. Like even the words industrial revolution just throw me back in my mind to history class in a curriculum that was very sort of Britain. Heavy, right? Like having to write an essay about the consequences of the introduction of crop rotation.
00:36:33:20 – 00:36:34:02
Speaker 1
It’s like.
00:36:34:06 – 00:36:53:11
Speaker 2
Why? And I was, I don’t know, 1112 it’s like really? And again, I was very good at learning all the right words and structuring them in an essay. But yeah, I mean, did they really benefit me in any way apart from giving me nightmares? To this day, when I hear the phrase industrial revolution, it’s just yeah, no, no, it’s.
00:36:54:02 – 00:37:15:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think yeah, I think I think the lack of real world relevance is really always, always my, my big bugbear of any educational system. And just, you know, there’s, there’s a big movement in the UK of home educators, you know, taking their children out of school because because the education system doesn’t work for them. They’re not always neurodivergent, but a lot of the time they are.
00:37:15:15 – 00:37:32:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. And, you know, with home educated children, for example, you don’t have a choice. They live in the real world, so they everything they do will be relevant to the real world. Whereas if we if you’re in a classroom, you’re like, we’re going to learn about the Aztecs for three months, like, okay, cool. But I’m not interested in those at the moment.
00:37:32:06 – 00:37:52:17
Speaker 2
So how do I and I had no way of relating that to and the same with like literature reading. So like, oh, here’s here’s the required reading for this year, bunch of books about people who did stuff in the 14th century or whatever. It’s like, okay, that’s cool. And yes, there are themes of, you know, underlying themes of of what humans are like that are, that are timeless.
00:37:52:17 – 00:38:07:02
Speaker 2
But when you’re 12, you have no life experience. None of that makes any sense. I just want to read a cool book about pirates when I’m 12. You know, I read Treasure Island for the first time, like two months ago. It was just never something that was in the curriculum. And I was like, this is so cool.
00:38:07:05 – 00:38:24:16
Speaker 2
This would have been so cool to read when I was 12 and like, oh, we could spend time talking about pirates. Yeah, okay. That doesn’t have real world relevance either. But at least that would have been fun, right? It would have been like more closer to what I’m interested in. And yeah. So yeah. And it’s same thing.
00:38:24:16 – 00:38:48:10
Speaker 2
Same thing I try and do when I teach people data science, it’s like the biggest advice I give people is just to do just like, do real world projects for yourself. That’s how you learn stuff like don’t sit through textbooks and textbooks and textbooks. Just just try and do stuff like analyze your own spending habits or your own running data, or, you know, something that has relevance, to the real world.
00:38:48:18 – 00:39:06:18
Speaker 2
And I think that that’s just that’s just what’s missing from from every stage. And I was surprised, actually, even at the master’s level, and how a lot of the, the subjects and a lot of the, the way that it was taught is so divorced from from how you do the do the work in the real world.
00:39:07:06 – 00:39:15:00
Speaker 2
I, I don’t think the education system has ever clocked on to that. Like, here we are talking about it. And yet no one, no one’s done anything about it anywhere.
00:39:15:02 – 00:39:47:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, you’re right about, like, the home schooling. I think a lot of my audience there are actually, like, micro schoolers, homeschoolers, un schoolers, alternative schoolers. And yeah, I think, like you said, a lot of them are neurodivergent or have that interest based nervous system or, you know, can’t learn in like a still place where information is deposited into your brain.
00:39:48:13 – 00:40:16:00
Speaker 1
And so, yeah, absolutely. So based on like, that real world relevancy, I know a lot of people in the past on my, podcast have talked about, like, project based learning and, bringing that in, so that there is actual, like, tangible, yeah, like connection to what’s happening in the real world. And so I’m wondering, like, what do you think we can do as a society?
00:40:16:14 – 00:41:00:14
Speaker 1
To educate our, the next generation, really, to be more engaged in their communities, both, you know, locally and at large. And how to help them find, you know, how to match their skills with some of the opportunities or, existing opportunities, to solve, like, you know, society’s biggest problems. I can’t remember if if I made the full question, but yeah, I’m wondering, what do you think we can do, to make that a reality?
00:41:00:16 – 00:41:29:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think what needs to happen is we just need to think about what is the goal of education at all, right? Like, what are we trying to get at the end of it? And, I was quite lucky because I, I’m originally Hungarian. I grew up in Hungary, but I went through the British education system because there were, there was a British school and I was again, a bunch of happy circumstances put me in the British education system rather than Hungarian one, and the Hungarian one is even worse for rote memorization.
00:41:29:07 – 00:41:43:19
Speaker 2
I mean, the whole thing is just based on every time there’s a bunch of facts, you need to regurgitate them, and then we’ll move on to the next set of facts that you need to regurgitate. And you might be able you might be asked to regurgitate them with no notice. And then that will give you a grade which then counts towards your final grade.
00:41:43:19 – 00:42:10:04
Speaker 2
And so it’s this horrendous, stressful environment. Luckily, I, I sort of sidestepped, I mean, that’s the extreme degree of like but what is the what is the desired outcome of a child’s education? Is it a pile of facts that they need to be able to regurgitate on cue at any point in adulthood? Probably not. Yeah. And obviously I’m not saying people don’t need to remember facts.
00:42:10:10 – 00:42:41:11
Speaker 2
Obviously there are things that people need to know. But if we if we structure the whole system around, that’s all it is. It’s memorizing facts. We’re not we’re not going to we’re not going to generate the right type of a human. I don’t think the end of it, because you’ll just kill their love of learning. Whereas what you want to do, right is give them skills that go beyond the specific places and specific context they were taught in, and are applicable en masse in a much wider way.
00:42:41:17 – 00:43:02:08
Speaker 2
So things that are more broadly applicable. So, you know, again, problem solving, critical thinking, it’s stuff like that that, that we don’t really focus on. As such, we sort of assume to that it would happen or I don’t really know how. I don’t think when people design curricula, I don’t think they have that in mind so much.
00:43:03:12 – 00:43:19:21
Speaker 2
And so one of the things we can do, I think, is just to start from, from the foundation of, like, what are we trying to achieve? And I think we’ll, we’ll if we have our eyes open, we’ll see. There’s a mismatch between the right answer to that and what’s currently happening. And then what else you can do?
00:43:19:21 – 00:43:40:20
Speaker 2
I think it’s just facilitate children having, just people in general having a broad access to all sorts of stuff. Just anything from, from I mean, you mentioned you mentioned improv earlier, like all that kind of stuff. You know, anything pottery, improv, maths, everything. Just give, give children a chance to try everything. And how do they know what they excel at if they don’t try?
00:43:40:20 – 00:44:09:09
Speaker 2
Absolutely everything in the world. And you know that there is obviously, a narrow part of society, which is like, well, the way to make an Olympic athlete is to focus from when they’re four years old on just doing a pole vault so that when they get to that age, they’ll be the best pole vaulter. Like, okay, but I don’t think the goal of the educational system is to make Olympic athlete level humans of every one of us, because that’s going to do that’s doomed to failure, right?
00:44:09:09 – 00:44:30:10
Speaker 2
I would never be good at that because it requires singular focus that I, I just can’t, can’t summon. Yeah. I think, individualism or this kind of, I’m sure I’m sure there’s a more technical term in the education sphere. There’s like just being able to play to someone’s strengths. Yeah, it’s it’s probably probably massive because we don’t do that, do we?
00:44:30:10 – 00:44:38:06
Speaker 2
We assume everybody’s homogeneous and everybody needs to go through the same track to get to to success, which is absolutely not going to be the case.
00:44:38:08 – 00:45:15:07
Speaker 1
Right? I mean, you know, like you said, like, you know, general knowledge, to, to some degree is very, important and beneficial, for learning and connecting future experiences and opportunities to this general knowledge. But, you’re right, I think to be able to expose everybody to a wide range of activities and, different ways of thinking, is going to be, you know, even more beneficial.
00:45:15:07 – 00:45:51:02
Speaker 1
I think, I think Neil deGrasse Tyson, doctor Neil deGrasse Tyson, he he basically said, the astrophysicist, he says, that teaching math, wires your brain in such a way that it can solve problems or that it knows it wires your brain to be able to solve problems. And so I’m always constantly thinking of, like, the, the inherent skill in a certain field, like what is what is that doing to the wiring of our brains?
00:45:51:15 – 00:46:15:10
Speaker 1
And so I’d love to kind of ask you about your definition of intelligence. Right. Of intelligence and creativity. Are they the same? And how do we, how do we. Help our the next generation become intelligent, become creative?
00:46:15:12 – 00:46:36:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, the definition of intelligence is actually comes up a lot in the community that I’m in, because artificial intelligence kind of requires that you understand, not artificial intelligence, or at least have an idea of a bit so that when we create systems, we we need a way to identify if they are intelligent or not. Right.
00:46:36:06 – 00:47:06:07
Speaker 2
And usually the verdict is the moment a system exists. Oh, that’s not really intelligence. We’re still working on that. But, I, I like I have no idea where this comes from. I saw, saw this somewhere, which is something like the definition of intelligence is something, something like goal oriented problem solving or it’s the or something. I think maybe there’s another adjective in there about like broad general ness or like the ability to generalize a problem to other similar problems.
00:47:07:01 – 00:47:36:18
Speaker 2
But the fact that you’re goal oriented and that you can solve a problem. And then the third pillar is that you can generalize patterns and things across other domains and see, oh, the way that I’ve, I don’t know, I can’t think of an example out of my head, but I don’t know the way that the way I solve this chess position has, has, some sort of underlying principles which I could use to, you know, do my job or do some other thing or, or fix my car or whatever, you know.
00:47:36:20 – 00:47:53:21
Speaker 2
And so I think that’s what that’s what true intelligence probably is. And yeah, it’s funny what you said about general knowledge, I think I think general knowledge is just something that comes up. If you’re exposed to a lot of things, you just you just get it right. You just get that sort of more rounded education of the world.
00:47:53:21 – 00:48:19:01
Speaker 2
Because if everything is, is if you’re immersed in the real world and everything is done in a way to satisfy your curiosity, you will eventually learn about all the stuff that you need to learn about. Yeah, without being like, you know, forcibly sat in a chair and trying to get there. In terms of creativity, I think I, I’ve, I’ve often thought, oh, I’m not that much of a creative person because I’m more of a Stem.
00:48:19:03 – 00:48:43:04
Speaker 2
Thinker or that’s more of my background. But actually, you know, the work I do requires creativity. In, in different ways. It’s maybe not like visual or artistic creative, but it’s still the ability in it. Also, the same kind of thing is the ability to solve a problem and to say, take pieces that exist around the world and combining them in a new way to, to solve a particular problem.
00:48:43:06 – 00:49:04:11
Speaker 2
And that kind of creativity is is really the essence of data analysis. For example, now, especially in the real world context, when you’re trying to solve a problem for, for a business, and because, you know, there are pieces, you’re working within the business, certain technologies that you have access to, certain people, you have access to, and you need to assemble those into something that that solves a problem.
00:49:04:13 – 00:49:10:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think yeah, I think it all comes down to, to these, these these ideas.
00:49:10:13 – 00:49:29:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, I know absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And I think earlier you were talking about, how the idea of intelligence comes up, a lot because you do work in the realm of AI and you have your own, podcast where you talk about data science and also you’re an author of a book, and you have another book on the way.
00:49:30:05 – 00:49:34:07
Speaker 1
I was wondering if you wanted to talk a little bit about those books.
00:49:34:09 – 00:49:38:09
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. So. Well, my, my book, just one book was on its way.
00:49:38:11 – 00:49:39:22
Speaker 1
Oh.
00:49:40:00 – 00:50:05:12
Speaker 2
It’s, it’s I, I’ve technically written all the chapters, but kind of can do a bit of a rewrite. There’s a moment again, unsurprisingly, I think that after our conversation, the title is not going to be, surprising. It’s it’s currently called solve any data analysis Problems. We might retitle it to make it more SEO friendly or something, but I like the title solve Any data analysis problem because it’s a collection of real world problems for people to solve.
00:50:05:13 – 00:50:27:18
Speaker 2
Who are data analysts, who have some skills and and want to try their skills on the real, like real problems that have actually come up in the world. Every project in the book is something that I’ve had to work on, and I’ve just created, like a, a smaller toy, more toy version of it. Yeah, but not to toy, because that was always my problem with data education is we give people scenarios that are very clean and we expect certain answers from them.
00:50:27:18 – 00:50:45:15
Speaker 2
Again, going back to what we were talking about was the real world is a lot messier than that. And I think data analysis students would benefit from being thrown into the deep end sooner, because that’s what the real world is like. It’s like getting thrown into a project where you don’t really know what the question is. You don’t really know what the problem is you’re trying to solve.
00:50:45:15 – 00:51:00:06
Speaker 2
So your first question is, right, what am I actually trying to do? And that’s a skill in itself that you need to hone. And then how do I again take the pieces of what my skill set is, what I need to learn to, to solve this? And how do I piece that together into some kind of solution?
00:51:00:15 – 00:51:18:00
Speaker 2
So that’s always been my frustration that these real world examples didn’t exist in the classroom. And so I’m trying to bridge that gap between what people do to get a foundational data analysis education and then what they actually need to do in the real world. But, I didn’t think that that was the book I was writing.
00:51:18:00 – 00:51:42:10
Speaker 2
It was I initially thought it was going to be. I just want to make some practice projects that people can use, but it’s sort of evolved a little bit into a actually, there’s a sort of loose framework that you can apply to every problem. And so my, my, the promise of the book is that you can you solve these projects, you go through these projects, you think about this loose framework that I present, and then it equips you to solve any problem in the future.
00:51:43:06 – 00:51:47:18
Speaker 2
Again, that’s that’s just really my focus of, of everything I think about these days.
00:51:47:20 – 00:51:55:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, that makes sense. And I think this is for, like, aspiring analysts. Right? Yeah. It’s not really for a general audience. It’s more.
00:51:55:08 – 00:51:56:12
Speaker 2
Of a no, it’s a.
00:51:56:13 – 00:51:56:20
Speaker 1
Field.
00:51:57:00 – 00:52:13:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, it’s a narrow it’s a more narrow field of people who’ve had some foundational training in data analysis. So if you give them a data analysis problem, they have a tool like Excel or something else to solve it, but maybe they haven’t had exposure to what what kind of projects they would work at if they were in a in a real company.
00:52:13:10 – 00:52:40:22
Speaker 2
And what are the constraints? What are the the uncertainties of real world examples? So yeah. And but when I was writing it, I thought actually maybe I should write a general purpose version of this. And that’s if I ever write a book again, which at this point, if you ask me, I would absolutely not. But in a few years, yeah, I think that would be my book is to to write a more pop sci kind of book about like problem solving and creativity and, and divergent thinking and all the stuff that we’ve been talking about.
00:52:40:22 – 00:52:43:05
Speaker 2
I just it just really interests me at the moment.
00:52:43:06 – 00:53:04:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure. And maybe, maybe even like a few years down the road, maybe when your children are even older, maybe you’ll write, a version of it that could be used, in the compulsory education classroom. You know, hint, hint that can come in handy.
00:53:05:00 – 00:53:10:06
Speaker 2
I don’t know how I would feel about any of my work being compulsory education, though. Yeah.
00:53:10:08 – 00:53:11:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like mandatory, right?
00:53:11:21 – 00:53:16:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Sit down and read David’s book. Yeah.
00:53:16:01 – 00:53:22:04
Speaker 1
Well, maybe then it’s not a book form. Maybe it’s, maybe like a video game, like you were talking about earlier.
00:53:22:16 – 00:53:40:07
Speaker 2
I have wondered whether a book is is even the right vehicle? Because I don’t learn well from books. So it’s very ironic that I’m writing a book to try and convey my ideas. I think, I think podcast conversation, video form. I think that’s probably better for that kind of thing. So I’m glad you’re doing that work.
00:53:40:09 – 00:54:30:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I, I love it. I think the speaking, the talking, it gets wired into my brain, into my bones. So that’s important. So yeah, I would love to be. I would, I would like to be mindful of your time and just kind of ask you this last kind of question to wrap up our really awesome conversation, which I’m really looking forward to, listening back to, if you could go back and give advice to your younger self or give advice to your child now, about, you know, to give any wisdom or words of, help or encouragement or support or even direction, towards what you think would help
00:54:30:16 – 00:54:38:09
Speaker 1
them help him grow, in the future? What would that advice be?
00:54:38:11 – 00:55:03:09
Speaker 2
There is a great quote from, the jazz pianist Thelonious Monk, and I’m not big on quotes. So this is this is like the most pretentious I’ll ever get. The nicest. But there happens to be a great quote for this. He, he was this sort of very avant garde jazz pianist. So, so not easy listening music. And he wrote somewhere on his notes that a genius is the one most like himself.
00:55:03:11 – 00:55:19:05
Speaker 2
And that just absolutely blew my mind when I heard it. It’s like, wow, it’s it’s one of those things where you kind of know it, but also hearing it in that form, it just just really did blow me away. So I think my, my advice to that I try and follow myself not great at following my own advice.
00:55:19:05 – 00:55:44:02
Speaker 2
So, it’s much easier to give it to other people. Is is really just to double down on what makes you you, I just I just think that that’s just the best way to live your life is just to try and and be true to your authentic self. And. Yeah, if my wife hears me say this, she’s going to laugh at me because she knows I can’t follow this advice and a very bad at it, but I just, I know it in my bones to be true.
00:55:44:02 – 00:56:08:05
Speaker 2
At some point it will be reflected in in everything else I do. But you do. I mean, I did, if you could relate to that being it being obvious what you’re supposed to do to make life better, but not being able to do it. I mean, I think I think that’s just it, it’s it’s just have. Yeah, have curiosity to find out what excites you and just to just go for that.
00:56:09:10 – 00:56:30:07
Speaker 2
Because I think if you, if you really find what’s really interesting to you, you could probably make a living from it. You could probably figure out how to make a living and do that thing. Obviously, I’m not saying that everybody who likes writing will become a published author necessarily. Because for every success story, there’s always failure stories.
00:56:30:07 – 00:56:46:17
Speaker 2
But I think if if there are people who like, love writing and that’s what they do a lot of it and then figure out, okay, maybe on the side, I need to do some something else to, to make money, because that’s just how the world is. But really what I’m all about is spending time doing the thing that I really love doing.
00:56:46:17 – 00:57:12:03
Speaker 2
And because that’s what I know really excites me and gets me going, I think that’s that’s a recipe for for a good life. And, and, and it’s probably future proof as well. Right? Even if I comes and takes all our jobs, we we can’t be wedded too closely to our jobs. If I is threatening to take them, because then what are we left with?
00:57:12:05 – 00:57:38:18
Speaker 1
Oh, man, I, I think about that very often. How scary I is. I the way that I talk about it, it’s, I just tiptoe around the words and hope that no bombs fall. You know, I am very scared of it, even though I do kind of use it, to sort of help me brainstorm things or clarify things or converge really complex ideas like, I’ll do this thing where I, like, put out a rant.
00:57:39:01 – 00:57:53:03
Speaker 1
I’ll like, just go at it in my journal and then just copy and paste until I like. Can you summarize what I’m thinking? Yeah. Because I am not a natural, convergent thinker. So yeah.
00:57:53:06 – 00:58:08:00
Speaker 2
So you need to outsource it again. And it’s just a tool to solve problems. If that’s how you think about it then, then I think it’s, it’s, it’s a way to to success. Yeah. Just outsource the things that you’re not good at and then do the things that you are good at and spend time on that.
00:58:08:02 – 00:58:16:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I really love that quote that you shared by Thelonious Monk. I took a History of Jazz course in college.
00:58:17:03 – 00:58:17:22
Speaker 2
Hey.
00:58:18:00 – 00:58:34:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I do kind of. I’m familiar with, with his music, but, this was such a great conversation. Any last words to, our guests about, schooling and educational success for the future?
00:58:34:22 – 00:59:03:13
Speaker 2
Who? Wow. Just just that small subject to finish. You’ve, it’s hard for parents, I think, because even if you know that the educational system doesn’t work for your child, you might be very limited by what you can do. So, it’s it’s hard. Some countries are more friendly than others to doing education in the way that a parent sees fit.
00:59:03:15 – 00:59:29:14
Speaker 2
Versus what, what the state mandates. But I don’t know if I would advise everyone to move to those countries who wants to, to break because probably not, not, not the best advice for a lot of people. But I think, I think if you pay attention to how like how your child learns, what your child likes and helps them facilitate it, then you’re probably doing what you can.
00:59:30:13 – 00:59:53:02
Speaker 2
Because I think and especially at a young age, right. Natural curiosity about things will just come out. So you don’t need to do a lot of a lot of work to, to pull that out. And the more they’re in an educational system, maybe the harder it is to tease out what they really like underneath. That might just be my personal experience, but I think it’s the experience of a lot of people.
00:59:53:23 – 01:00:15:00
Speaker 2
So if you notice early what your child likes, but you’re stuck in a situation, that means you have to send them to an education system you don’t align with so much, then, you know, make time for them on their own terms, I guess, to to, to follow what they want to follow. And that’s probably the best you can do.
01:00:15:02 – 01:00:24:00
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.
About David
David is a “data generalist”; currently a freelance data consultant and educator with an MSc. in Data Science and a background in software and web development. He is most interested in the skills that people actually need in the real world. To that end, he co-hosts the Half Stack Data Science podcast about data science in the real world, and is the author of Solve Any Data Analysis Problem, a book about the data skills that aspiring analysts actually need in their jobs, which will be published by Manning in 2024.
You can find him online here: