Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Kentaro, a math teacher, curriculum developer, and teacher trainer—about his early memories of being an internally motivated child and student. I ask him about the cultural and socioeconomic differences between his home life growing up, and the private high school he went to after attending public schools through the 8th grade. We talk about his journey back to the classroom for 16 years as a math teacher, and how that experience led to him earning what he calls his mid-life crisis doctorate at Harvard to make a more system-wide impact. We also discuss how he and others have humanized how math is taught by examining and tackling power structures, and also the promising strategies that current research is telling us about how to close the achievement gap. This is an important conversation about both the tangible practices and mind shifts we need to apply in measuring the success of our students going forward.
About Kentaro
Kentaro, the son of immigrants from Japan, experienced first-hand the dissonant extremes in our education system, attending failing public schools through 8th grade and then an incredibly resourced private high school on scholarship. These disparate educational experiences highlighted the stark contrast in our schooling system and compelled Kentaro to provide the highest quality education to students furthest from the center, driven by a deep call to equity and social justice. A math teacher at heart with 16 years of classroom experience, Kentaro relentlessly sought out instructional approaches that worked with his students out of a deep sense of desperation. While department head at the fifth lowest performing high school in California, Kentaro increased AP math enrollment by 400% while also increasing passing rates on AP math exams. In 2011, Kentaro was honored to receive the Presidential Award for Excellence in Math and Science Teaching at the White House. Kentaro led statewide math initiatives and trained over 2000 math teachers and leaders while director at non-profit ConnectED. He wrote math curriculum used by over 350,000 students for Agile Mind through the Dana Center at the University of Texas at Austin. Kentaro has served as co-chair of Harvard’s Data Wise Network, as a founding member of the Racial Equity Council at the NewSchools Venture Fund, and as adjunct faculty at San Francisco State University. Kentaro is National Board Certified and holds a BA from Stanford, a doctorate in education leadership from Harvard, and a Superintendent’s License from Massachusetts. Most importantly, Kentaro is a husband to an amazing special educator and father to two remarkable teenagers.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentaro-iwasaki
https://www.concentricmath.com
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/edcast/24/03/math-great-potential-equalizer
Auto-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:04 – 00:00:26:22
Rée
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private university whose large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:27:00 – 00:00:48:08
Rée
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:48:10 – 00:01:15:11
Rée
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers, with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Kentaro, a math teacher, curriculum developer, and teacher trainer, about his early memories of being an internally motivated child and student.
00:01:15:13 – 00:01:36:15
Rée
I ask him about the cultural and socioeconomic differences between his home life growing up and the private school he went to after attending public schools through the eighth grade. We talk about his journey back to the classroom for 16 years as a math teacher, and how that experience led to him earning what he calls his midlife crisis doctorate at Harvard.
00:01:36:20 – 00:02:06:06
Rée
To make a more system wide impact, we also discuss how he and others have humanized how math is taught by examining and tackling power structures, and also the promising strategies that current research is telling us about how to close the achievement gap. This is an important conversation about both the tangible practices and mindsets that we need to apply in measuring the success of our students going forward.
00:02:06:07 – 00:02:36:01
Kentaro
So in terms of what child I was, I think I was very much a rule follower. And I think, by traditional measures, I was successful, like, by traditional schooling measures. And my parents are immigrants from Japan. So they, they came to the US in the 60s. They were both born during World War two and, I think that really influenced a lot of of, my childhood, obviously.
00:02:36:03 – 00:03:04:13
Kentaro
So I grew up in LA, and grew up in very diverse, diverse school settings, which were which was just such a huge gift. I really, really gained so much from being in, and really diverse public schools through eighth grade. And just, just, I know so much of my life was, was really influenced and shaped by, the gift of that.
00:03:04:13 – 00:03:14:22
Kentaro
So, that’s at least some of my background. Yeah. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll stop there and let you ask a question or lead out.
00:03:15:00 – 00:03:42:05
Rée
Yeah, I know for sure. And I know that, you know, you went through public school education, at least until eighth grade. And then I know you got, a scholarship to go to a really. I mean, the word that comes to mind is like a prestigious, like, fancy high school with, like, lots of resources. So I’m wondering if you can kind of explain, or share, like, what the difference was between your public school experience.
00:03:42:05 – 00:03:46:07
Rée
And then this really, fancy high school education?
00:03:46:13 – 00:04:13:23
Kentaro
Yeah, absolutely. So certainly what comes top of mind is just how, how much, the school setting was different. So my public school setting, you know, there were aspects where, like, the building was falling apart or the desks were where, you know, often broken or different things like that. So certainly like the public, the just the school setting itself.
00:04:14:01 – 00:04:32:23
Kentaro
I think, another aspect that was really different was, just a number of students. So in my high school, the, my private high school experience, like the English classes, I think they had like 18 students or something like that. It was a very small number, and certainly my public school setting had often like twice that number.
00:04:33:01 – 00:05:00:21
Kentaro
So, that was very different. Clearly the, the demographics of, the school, the private high school and my public school background were, were extremely different. So, the private high school that I went to primarily had Asian and white students, whereas my public school background had, just, very representative, like student population from LA.
00:05:00:21 – 00:05:33:12
Kentaro
And, and so that was just, a real richness that I experienced and in public schools, certainly the academic, experience of the high school was far beyond what I had gotten in public school. It was jaw dropping to me. And, I was certainly like a real stress case. My eighth grade year when I started at the high school, I, I just never experienced anything like that, just the amount of homework and that everyone was doing their homework and and all of that was, was really, was really shocking to me.
00:05:33:12 – 00:06:07:11
Kentaro
So anyway, that was some of the, some of, the background I, I experienced, certainly the socioeconomic level was vastly different. And, that that was very intimidating to me to go into a private high school setting and being on scholarship, being, you know, someone with, with less means, and feeling intimidated by that. Whereas where I, where I’d come from public school, I’d been, you know, arguably maybe you want my parents were middle class, but very much maybe at the upper end.
00:06:07:13 – 00:06:24:05
Kentaro
So it was just a real contrast and student experiences and what what students you know, the experiences they had brought, you know, on in terms of world travel and all of that. So that was that was certainly like some of the some of the differences I experienced.
00:06:24:07 – 00:06:51:10
Rée
You know, two memories come to mind. I had a, a guest on my podcast, recently, and she talked about how. So she grew up in Baltimore and she grew up in, a neighborhood, the east side of Baltimore, where there is a lot more, activity there that, gets a lot of attention for not being the best.
00:06:51:12 – 00:07:25:21
Rée
And, she was saying that she went to school in a different neighborhood in a private school, and so she was not able to process what happened to her at home or in her neighborhood with the same type of people that were going to school. And so she was she kind of almost said, like, you know, it would have been almost better to go to schools where she lived, because then they could at least process the experiences, that were happening together in community.
00:07:25:23 – 00:07:59:22
Rée
So I was wondering for you, like when you do mention that, you know, the people were different and even though you were kind of like part of the upper middle class, that you did see a lot of differences, in, in the socioeconomic, stratospheric, you know, that kind of thing. And so I’m wondering, like, do you remember any kind of stories or people that, either you were intimidated by or you didn’t really know how to speak with or, you know, was there any kind of like, how do I fit into this bubble?
00:08:00:03 – 00:08:01:12
Rée
I’m just curious.
00:08:01:14 – 00:08:27:01
Kentaro
Yeah. I mean, just one story comes to mind that, you know, frequently, like the, the school events or some of the school events, like, even the school dances were hosted by families, at my private high school. And so it blew my mind that families had, homes that were large enough to host a whole school dance.
00:08:27:01 – 00:08:51:21
Kentaro
I mean, that’s the class. I mean, our whole high school was, I think, 320 students. And, you know, only, you know, a certain number of those would go, go to school dances. But I remember going to these homes and being really floored that people lived. And you know what, to me, just seemed like these mansions that could host, school dance so that that was really, surprising.
00:08:51:21 – 00:09:18:21
Kentaro
I remember just, some other, like, graduation events where, families hosted, you know, like, for a senior graduation lunch and it just watching the interactions, among families or among, the students, might call it by classmates and, and just realizing, like, oh, I was very much not raised, you know, in that type of setting.
00:09:18:23 – 00:09:41:01
Kentaro
You know, I share this story when I’m leading professional development or professional learning, particularly for math teachers, but just in terms of like, structures and, in our classroom settings. And I share, you know, my, my wife is, her father was, CFO at one point, and Silicon Valley and, they’re her parents are both from Europe.
00:09:41:01 – 00:10:06:23
Kentaro
And, and so when I, when we were, engaged or dating, I would go to their house and we’d sit around their dining room table. And, you know, my father in law, my set, the head of the table, and my mother in law on the other side, and, you know, and we were sitting in, you know, circle around this table and, and, you know, and he might my father in law might just raise the topic about the news or something, and everyone would just start talking.
00:10:06:23 – 00:10:43:13
Kentaro
And, you know, I contrast it to my childhood where it felt like more of our dinner. It was like in front of the TV or, you know, we’d eat at the kitchen table, but it might be at just different points and just the TV would be on, you know? And so, just, just those types of kind of, experiences and I, I mostly raise the story when I’m learning professional development because I talk about students who don’t get an opportunity or an invitation to come into the space that were were expecting students to kind of.
00:10:43:15 – 00:11:30:09
Kentaro
Entertain themselves. But frequently, you know, this is just a real cultural bias, and we need to really create space for our students to enter in. And so we need structures in our school system, in our classrooms that really allow for equity of voice and allow for students to enter in, to the space to invite, to give opportunity for students to speak, but also for students to listen, that there really needs to be, that dynamic at play that, that like kind of real balance of speaking and listening and without explicit structures will revert to just our white supremacy, dominant culture norms.
00:11:30:09 – 00:12:02:13
Kentaro
And, and those are very much ones in which whoever has the most status and power speaks out. And so, let’s speaks out first and often speaks out most. And so anyway, I think there’s just so much about that, that, about those dynamics and being aware of them and so much based right in our background. And so and anyway, just, just asking educators, you know, just statistically that the vast majority of educators, at least in the US, right, are, are white.
00:12:02:13 – 00:12:35:00
Kentaro
And so just the the cultural norms that we may assume, operate for students and operate in our classrooms. I just really want to, ask teachers to be mindful of those and to, to incorporate structures that really allow for equity of voice, particularly for, the richness in the diversity of students we have. And, and being mindful for teachers to use their own power and status within the classroom to really set that forth.
00:12:35:00 – 00:13:12:11
Kentaro
So students are invited in, so anyway, just just reflecting back to your question, I’ve just places where I certainly felt I was not invited to necessarily that I felt very, very, just strange to me that there was such a whole new world, what I experienced growing up or culturally, from my family. And so anyway, that, that, that definitely comes to mind of just being that link of our personal experiences, and then linked to, the work we do in education.
00:13:12:11 – 00:13:16:01
Kentaro
So anyway, that that comes to mind for sure.
00:13:16:03 – 00:13:42:02
Rée
Oh my gosh, there’s a lot there. And, you know, you really do juxtapose those two worlds. And I think you bridged them very beautifully, not just there, but also in the work that you did subsequently. And so and are still doing now, I guess. But I’m kind of I would love to know a little bit like about your parents kind of expectations for you.
00:13:42:04 – 00:13:56:02
Rée
And was it their hand in, like, taking you out of public school and, you know, trying to get you in to a better school? I guess, for lack of a better phrase.
00:13:56:04 – 00:14:24:00
Kentaro
Yeah. Thank you for your question. So it wasn’t actually my parents, and maybe this is runs counter to many of the kind of, I don’t know, ideas of Asian parents or stereotypes of. Yeah, but my parents were fairly, uninvolved with my schooling or even our activities. And, I may have been just a matter of either being immigrants to the US and not really understanding the system.
00:14:24:02 – 00:14:45:09
Kentaro
I may have just been the overwhelm of living in another country, in another language. All of that. So they were fairly involved with my schooling, like they, so I ended up actually applying to this private high school myself, I remember calling yeah. I mean, this is back in the day where you call and you.
00:14:45:10 – 00:15:08:06
Kentaro
I remember calling and asking, would you please send me an application? They sent it to me. I remember filling it out, and then my parents just signing it and writing the check for an application. And I’m sure they probably did other things that I don’t remember, but, I remember sending it in. So I think there was just an element in me of, of, like, motivation.
00:15:08:08 – 00:15:47:17
Kentaro
You know, a teacher at my middle school had actually talked with me about this high school her husband had taught there. So that that was definitely, she had also put the idea in my head, but, so my parents really were not, very involved. I remember even in college, our grades would get sent to us, to the students, and I don’t think my parents ever saw them gratefully, because I think if I would have had some conversations that they had see my grades in college, but, but so they just weren’t very, involved in at least, kind of academic world that I, or my academics, I think
00:15:47:17 – 00:16:11:16
Kentaro
they were fairly surprised when I got into Stanford, in high school or as a senior, because I think they didn’t know how I’ve been going in high school. So I think they were fairly surprised. And, anyway, and so that that is some of my background, I mean, one other thing maybe I’ll share is, I share this story.
00:16:11:16 – 00:16:33:03
Kentaro
My professional development for math teachers in particular, and I asked teachers to really reflect on their own story and what they bring, bring in and the ways that that really influences, you know, how we engage in the classroom and how we teach in our relationship with students. So my parents were both born during World War Two and experienced a great deal of trauma.
00:16:33:05 – 00:17:00:06
Kentaro
So my father never finished middle school, just out of just sheer poverty. My mother didn’t walk until she was almost five years old, out of Mount malnourishment. Like there just wasn’t food in Japan and post-World War two Japan or, and so I think they really they brought so much of that, you know, of course, the trauma of war, with them to the US and then subsequently, you know, in our family.
00:17:00:08 – 00:17:28:20
Kentaro
And so some of what I share is actually my work in schools and with classrooms, or with teachers, really is around this model called complex instruction that talks, that really looks at status and power issues and dynamics in a classroom. But, some of my interests in this, I know, traces back to my own family and seeing how power and status was really misused or abused.
00:17:28:22 – 00:18:01:19
Kentaro
And, you know, and I would say some of that was cultural, some of it was based in the trauma of war. You know, my father, sadly, was alcoholic, violent and bipolar and, that clearly, you know, impacted how he how he was, in our family. And I think that growing up in that environment really made me sensitive to issues of power and status.
00:18:01:19 – 00:18:32:18
Kentaro
And so recognizing where that I, I’m very just attuned to where power is emerges. And because of, I think, my childhood and, you know, I mean, after years of therapy and executive coaching and different things, I think, you know, working through that, but then being able to hopefully, like really see this as a gift, even though it was very, very hard growing up in that, environment.
00:18:32:18 – 00:19:13:23
Kentaro
But but now being able to say, you know, I think I’m very, sensitive to issues of power and status, particularly in classroom settings because, and school settings and, I mean, just even all around us in our society, but a lot because of that background and, and then also then wanting to address those issues and confront those issues, this model, at least out of Stanford Complex Construction, you know, some of the premise is, is that of some power dynamics, unless they’re addressed, really get in the way of student learning and student engagement.
00:19:14:00 – 00:19:46:02
Kentaro
And so I certainly see that. And, and because of that, I think my own background and being able to relate around power and status issues, and being really able in some regards to relate to students who also may have experienced trauma or have, have experienced sort of these power status dynamics. And they also experience that day to day, particularly black and brown students really see and experience this day to day.
00:19:46:04 – 00:20:15:20
Kentaro
So, I think there was some level of, certainly like camaraderie or of understanding or, empathy that, that both I felt with my students and I think my students felt with me around this. And I think that is some of the work that I get to take part in in schools. And just one other thought on this, you know, I don’t want this to sound like it’s all touchy feely, you know?
00:20:15:20 – 00:20:54:07
Kentaro
Oh, like our status. It really is about academic outcomes and really seeing that academic outcomes are, that student’s academic outcomes are like they increase as we, as we address these power centers dynamics. So it’s not just let’s make, kumbaya, setting in our classrooms, but much more like, let’s address these issues that exist in society and are mirrored in our classrooms and get in the way of students learning, you know, our whole society, our world is so divided.
00:20:54:09 – 00:21:22:10
Kentaro
And what does it look like for us to learn, to work across lines of difference or across difference and what what, just a fundamental belief that we are really better when we work across lines of difference. All of us are better. The product, the outcomes are better. But we just don’t know how to do that.
00:21:22:10 – 00:21:47:16
Kentaro
Well, and so anyway, that’s a lot of, I think some of, the work I get to do and I’m really excited about and very grateful to, to be part of, and certainly linking it back to my personal history and then, and then, transitioning that into the, into my professional life as well. So anyway, just being very grateful for that, that the work I get to do.
00:21:47:18 – 00:22:11:21
Rée
Yeah, for sure. And thank you for sharing that. I think I see how so many things are connected for you. It goes back to the personal, it goes back to the professional. And it also like ties in to the social impact work that you do. So yeah, it’s it’s very integrated. And I wanted to share like I also am very sensitive to power dynamics.
00:22:11:23 – 00:22:38:18
Rée
And I see status all the time, you know, as somebody who has very little of it, in society, for many different intersectional reasons, like, you know, it’s, it’s very easy to see. And so when you mention that, I, I wanted to learn a little bit more about, you know, that road that you did take because you did go to Stanford.
00:22:38:18 – 00:23:12:15
Rée
You also went to Harvard. And you were for 16 years the math teacher. And then I think you went on to get your superintendents license and, go on to, you know, found your own, your own practice, in training teachers. And, you know, like, I’m kind of curious about, the work that you do and a little bit more about, I guess,
00:23:12:17 – 00:23:29:22
Rée
How you see, what are some of the things that you do, in your work that actually translate like leading with collaboration and connection, that actually leads to results academically.
00:23:30:00 – 00:24:12:18
Kentaro
Yeah. Thank you. Can I just build on something you said earlier? Yeah. And I, I just I appreciate your own reflection about about your own status and, and sort of where that, where that is in the world and how that influences and impacts how you interact. I think that’s so much of the work I get to do with educators is to really ask them to reflect on that and reflect on their own impact, and also what has influenced their lives, because we bring that, you know, everywhere we go, obviously, in terms of our identity and our background, our history, all of that.
00:24:12:18 – 00:24:44:20
Kentaro
And so how does that enter into particularly the classroom space? So that they’re mindful and I think, you know, part of this work that I get to, like facilitate, you know, looks at these like what I call status interventions and you’re sharing just made me think about this work in terms of how we can use our status on behalf of others and really then need to to do that.
00:24:44:20 – 00:25:28:20
Kentaro
I mean, both both at like a moral level, but also, I think to get work done better and well, you know, I share a story in the training, during my Harvard doctoral program, one of the professors called me can, I used to go by can, so it actually doesn’t. It’s not a I. I’m just used to it, but I in college, I switched to Kentaro, and but I didn’t speak up and you know, and when, whenever one of the Harvard, you know, halls or whatever of learning and but my cohort, which was 25 really incredible people, this doctoral cohort, they spoke up on my behalf and they said,
00:25:28:22 – 00:25:52:05
Kentaro
it’s Kentaro, it’s Kentaro. They kept saying it. And then the professor heard and realized and and he later ended up coming up to me apologizing, saying, I know your name, I will use it. But but just a place where I felt my own status issues in this classroom environment at Harvard. And this professor not saying my name.
00:25:52:05 – 00:26:20:11
Kentaro
And then on behalf of, my behalf, my cohort then comes and speaks up for me. And I just think this is something we need to do for each other, and we need to do, for our students in particular. And, you know, I’m really looking for places where status and power dynamics are getting in the way of students collaborating with each other, working with each other, the ways that they interact or don’t interact.
00:26:20:13 – 00:26:51:18
Kentaro
What are the ways that we can use our status and power for good and to address all of the issues that, are emerging in, in the classroom spaces and in our own spaces. So anyway, I just I just want to raise that just places where we ourselves can engage in and addressing, this work, so for each other and for, you know, for adults in the system as well.
00:26:51:20 – 00:27:00:18
Kentaro
And then I think your question, if I actually do you asking it one more time, I think it was about connections and relationships. I’m not. But but yes, thank you.
00:27:00:18 – 00:27:26:00
Rée
But it’s a good thing you asked me because I just wanted to reflect on what you just said. Very relatable actually, because, I also I went by my middle name, which is Diane, for a long time, and then in college actually switched to my legal name, which is, it’s a Chinese name. So it’s still not Korean, but still, it reflected my, Asian heritage.
00:27:26:00 – 00:27:48:12
Rée
So I just wanted to say I totally understand. Maybe not exactly the same way, but, I could I could very much relate to that. And yes, you’re right. So the the question that I really wanted to ask you was, what was the work that, that you have been doing since your time at Stanford and Harvard?
00:27:48:14 – 00:28:12:09
Rée
Around, kind of, I guess changing the paradigm from leading with, like, this status in power to actually leading with, collaboration and connection and how that’s actually impacting the bottom line of not just, you know, connecting with students, but actually helping them rise above academically.
00:28:12:11 – 00:28:36:15
Kentaro
Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Okay. So just just, just one piece to build off of. So really, the status and power, work is very integrated into the collaboration work and the connection and relationship building. So just to, just to, clarify that that’s really like all one in the same, in this work. I think what it has intrigued me.
00:28:36:15 – 00:29:07:02
Kentaro
So this, this concentric math that I launched and run just it’s only been about a year or maybe a year and a half. So it’s been very recently. But what’s been intriguing has been that districts are that have reached out are very much, districts who are examining, equity within their districts and particularly wanting to center the work around black students frequently and centering the work around black and brown students.
00:29:07:04 – 00:29:38:05
Kentaro
And so I think some of my background, which I’m very grateful for in San Francisco Unified at Michigan High School, and then now I get to work with Cambridge, Massachusetts, who sits frequently. Those two districts are written about in many, many newspapers like the Boston Globe and the San Francisco Chronicle and the New York Times and, you know, Wall Street Journal, they talk about at least these two districts in the context of math and around math equity.
00:29:38:07 – 00:30:02:15
Kentaro
And it’s a very contentious topic right now. There are, you know, one of the professors at Stanford, Joe Bowler, who I’ve gone to work with, you know, has gotten death threats. I mean, it’s really this very, politically hot. I mean, it’s just it’s it’s a very, there’s just so much, so much going on politically, like.
00:30:02:17 – 00:30:30:07
Kentaro
Okay, so but your question about, like, connection and outcome. So I think just related to this, when I was at Michigan High, in San Francisco, I was very much like. And I think our department and our school is very much dissatisfied with the, outcomes. We are seeing them, among Black and Latinx students, and really asking, like, you know, what can we do?
00:30:30:07 – 00:31:00:06
Kentaro
Like what? You know, this this is our responsibility. We’re the adults in this system. We’ve created this. So what? What is it we can do? And, you know, early on in my teaching, just in collaboration with some professors from San Francisco State around an NSF grant, you know, we saw actually there there is a way to address the, this where people often call the achievement gap, but more this opportunity gap between white and Asian students and Black and Latinx students.
00:31:00:06 – 00:31:24:11
Kentaro
And the work, the way to do that is to do track is to make heterogeneous groupings. And what I had inherited at Michigan High School was, math department that was, that had an honors section of almost all white and Asian students. And then, and then all the other classes, whatever you call them, regular classes or non honors or whatever you call them.
00:31:24:11 – 00:31:57:03
Kentaro
Sometimes they call them college prep. And those are primarily Black and Latinx students. And you know, there’s been research that actually you can address this opportunity gap, make heterogeneous groups like do track your classes. But the the tricky part is politically, people don’t want to do this. And particularly I would say white and Asian families or families with higher social capital or political capital.
00:31:57:05 – 00:32:24:20
Kentaro
Do not want to do this. They, they fear, this detracting for a variety of reasons. They think their own students will not progress as far, I think there’s underlying racism that, that no one wants to really address or talk about. But anyway, so we did this work and it certainly did achieve the outcomes.
00:32:24:20 – 00:32:56:03
Kentaro
It was not only that white and Asian students actually, increased in their performance, but the Black and Latinx students who had never had access to advanced math courses, AP courses, and in the US were getting access and were entering the classroom, succeeding in the classroom, passing AP math exams. And that was just not and that had not really happened in the school or the district.
00:32:56:03 – 00:33:24:21
Kentaro
And so that this work I think is very replicable. It’s we can replicate it. And that has been some of the interest in, in districts that I’ve gotten to work with, through my work is to say, well, actually, if we want to address this, there is a way, it’s just it’s very unpopular and it’s very politically charged and, and people aren’t comfortable with it.
00:33:24:21 – 00:33:56:08
Kentaro
And partly it’s because mostly all of our experiences, I would argue, the parents, the adults in the system, all of our experiences that we’ve lived lives of tracking, that our school systems have been tracked, our society is tracked, our communities are tracked. I mean, you know, so because of that, we we have this bias that it’s not going to work or, you know, there’s a there’s a article or a it’s very old.
00:33:56:08 – 00:34:26:01
Kentaro
I think it’s like 20 plus years old, but by Alfie Cohn and it’s something like only for my kids and sort of this idea of like, oh yeah, I’m going to fight, but only for my kids. But essentially by making heterogeneous groupings, it really is everyone benefits that, you know, right now, you know, there’s just so much richness that gets, just shared among students.
00:34:26:01 – 00:35:20:14
Kentaro
And students would never interact together, in the hallways or at lunch or. But when we see them together and they’re working and we set up the classroom, in a way that that really promotes this collaboration across lines of difference, there is so much richness and depth that is shared among students who would never interact otherwise, and also gives an opportunity for students to learn from each other and learn that others who they may have thought to not bring, what we call smartness or competencies to the work to bring a real wealth of smartness and competencies to the work.
00:35:20:16 – 00:35:53:22
Kentaro
And vice versa. So there’s just a lot of like learning opportunity. So, I mean, in terms of like I think you had said like the bottom line and academic outcomes, you know, within certainly the research, like Joe Boehler did research around this method and, you know, in the Bay area. And then I think, our work in, in high school, San Francisco Unified, I think other places that have incorporated this approach certainly have seen, outcomes, increase.
00:35:53:22 – 00:36:25:19
Kentaro
I think one thing that we’re one arena we’re looking at in terms of outcomes, even right now with Cambridge and and Cambridge, Massachusetts, and I do want to just say I really appreciate this district who they’re they’re really asking some tough questions and they’re willing to turn the, the mirror on themselves or the to really, like, take a look in the mirror about their own practice, their structures, their systems, their policies, which is a lot of the work I get to do with districts.
00:36:25:21 – 00:37:15:03
Kentaro
So one of the questions they’re even asking is you know, how many of our Black and Latinx students are getting into AP math classes, how many are staying, who’s leaving? Right. And y, you know, and and asking like the question about themselves of like, what is it we may be doing the adults in the system, the educators to promote this when the when Black and Latinx students who need to be in these classes are asking to leave, you know, and so even that that measure of asking who’s get who’s in these classes, who are in these advanced math classes and who’s staying and finishing?
00:37:15:05 – 00:37:41:21
Kentaro
I, I think it’s a really great question. And in collaboration with them, I’ve really asking them to look at that data. And, and if students are asking if Black and Latinx students in particular are asking to leave an advanced math course that they’ve worked so hard to get to, like, why? Like what’s what’s happening and what can we in the system change so that they don’t leave?
00:37:41:21 – 00:37:48:09
Kentaro
They don’t want to leave. So anyway, let me stop there and feel free to lead out.
00:37:48:09 – 00:38:02:04
Rée
Well, I was hoping you would, share a little bit more about if there are any, like, preliminary, hypotheses of why they’re leaving, that, you know, of.
00:38:02:06 – 00:38:36:03
Kentaro
So one of the teachers in Cambridge and one of the trainings, brought up publicly. So I feel comfortable saying this publicly. She asked within the Cambridge range and Latin within the high school, why are 80% of the AP math teachers white male, and why are 80% of the algebra one teachers, which is the kind of starting level, the lowest level in ninth grade math?
00:38:36:05 – 00:39:14:00
Kentaro
Why are 80% of them white female? And this came, in the training that I do with districts towards the end of the week where we ask about status in our own system and or within the system of adults, like, and how does that look in our own work? And so a question is, if were the adults promoting status and power dynamics within the adult system, you know, of course it’s going to get replicated among, the students.
00:39:14:02 – 00:39:46:07
Kentaro
And that’s just some of the research from my advisor at Harvard, John Meta. And or this sort of like, just this replication in the system, but but also, then, I mean, the question is, who are which teachers are students, particularly Black and Latinx students or female students who may not be progressing into, advanced math courses for, for a variety of reasons?
00:39:46:09 – 00:40:06:14
Kentaro
Like, who are the who are the teachers that are most successful with Black and Latinx students and female students and advanced math courses? And then does that need to be does does the makeup of, of who’s teaching need to be disrupted? So Cambridge has actually taken this up and has begun to sort of change some of this.
00:40:06:14 – 00:40:36:23
Kentaro
And begin to just look at the the makeup of their, their that of who’s teaching what and potentially making it more diverse across the board from algebra through AP math courses. And so, I again, I commend them for this courage. It’s not many districts who are asking these types of questions and being self-reflective and, asking questions.
00:40:37:01 – 00:41:06:06
Kentaro
I think we just take it like de facto that if you have seniority, you’ll just you get all these privileges, but instead they’re really asking within the system something else and what’s, what’s really going to serve, our students best, particularly black and brown students, English learners, students with IEPs and really wanting to center those students, which is also not what we do.
00:41:06:07 – 00:41:47:13
Kentaro
So anyway, I think that’s, that’s an example of, of making a structural change. That would, that would address some of, the, status power issues, the reasons why students may not progress, and really wanting to learn from students like what is their experience and really taking that seriously and then wanting to adjust our practice, as educators, our structures and systems to, to make the experience better for students and then tied to that then are the outcomes would would be better for them.
00:41:47:13 – 00:41:50:11
Kentaro
So.
00:41:50:13 – 00:42:16:14
Rée
Yeah, I know that these are really great. And I kind of I’m thinking of several people on my podcast who I had on, and there’s a lot of alignment here. And so, you know, in the first season of my podcast, I, one of the key insights, was that our mass schooling systems really have, like, a singular definition of success.
00:42:16:16 – 00:42:54:11
Rée
And, those who can perform to those standards, with a certain level of speed and accuracy, you know, they’re seen as valuable to society, whereas, those who can’t perform to those standards are labeled as not valuable. And I’m kind of wondering, you know, with, this research around tracking and, you know, the formation of, heterogeneous groupings of students working in collaboration and connection with each other.
00:42:54:12 – 00:43:13:02
Rée
I’m wondering, like, you know, what are some, like, metrics I guess, you’re using to, assess student achievement that may be different from, like, Common Core or, you know, what’s actually in public schools right now?
00:43:13:04 – 00:43:46:05
Kentaro
Sure. No, absolutely. So, well, just in terms of metrics, I mean, one thing I think we took seriously at Mission High and, I took seriously with districts is actually that because students are measured and unfairly so? I mean, I would just say it’s it’s unfortunate, but but there are still these gatekeepers that S.A.T. or AP courses, rap scores, standardized testing.
00:43:46:07 – 00:44:35:02
Kentaro
And so even though many of us disagree with those metrics, because students are being measured against them, we have to take them seriously because I think to not to not take them seriously is to disadvantage students and particularly black and brown students. And so I think some of what, we were really serious about was to say no, that the students will, will, achieve on these on these standardized tests that we may disagree with, but we need to prepare them for this, because this is how the system in the US, as much as we may disagree with it, our education system, the college admissions system, this is how they’re measured.
00:44:35:02 – 00:44:59:11
Kentaro
And so, so to not prepare them is, is to disadvantage them. That’s bad. We did there were other metrics, right? I mean, there are there are metrics that districts are using. I mean, Cambridge, again, you know, is is using, like a social, sorry, a social emotional measure of like how our students, engaging with math, math identity.
00:44:59:13 – 00:45:23:18
Kentaro
Some of the survey, so the survey, questions that are put out to students about their experiences, how are they viewing themselves? So certainly that I think, you know, I, I mentioned just for us, admission and I think this is something I’m asking more and more districts just to look at is, you know, for us, the fourth year math course was an elective course.
00:45:23:18 – 00:45:51:18
Kentaro
Students did not need to opt into it. But we found just as we changed our approach mission that, you know, again, we went from one AP math course to like 4 or 5 that students were asking and opting in to take this advanced math course. And, so I think for for me, that’s a huge metric like our, our students wanting to to continue on in math even when they don’t need to.
00:45:51:18 – 00:46:15:03
Kentaro
They’ve met the graduation requirement. I mean, that’s, that’s been something that, you know, like we take, I take very seriously, you know, is is that, there’s been research about just when students spend four or take four years of math in high school, and then they transition to college like they are so much more successful in college math.
00:46:15:03 – 00:46:47:13
Kentaro
And, you know, and that’s intuitively makes sense. But just that, you know, that students often don’t have to take a fourth year of math course, though. So when they opt into, I think it really speaks volumes. So, I mean, that that is a metric. Let me just say one thing. If I could hop back to what your you had said earlier in the question, you just brought up about like, traditional measures of math and the ways we look at it and, you know, this has just been something that I’ve just raised with educators.
00:46:47:13 – 00:47:16:01
Kentaro
And I do think, right, like just all these ways we assess students, it’s it’s just so ludicrous, right? Like, like when do we ever have a situation where we give someone, like a piece of paper, a pencil, a timer, and we’re like, here, answer these questions. And this is going to show that, you know, something and, you know, versus, you know, I was just thinking about my my son, was thinking about, like, changing his room up, like the furniture in his room.
00:47:16:01 – 00:47:37:08
Kentaro
And so he’s, you know, here my wife are working on this, and they’re like, you know, diagraming out the room. They’re talking to each other, and they’re there’s time, there’s collaboration. He could use different tools. They could use like a calculator if they want. They go online. I mean, and my wife’s offering these different ideas because she’s so creative.
00:47:37:10 – 00:48:00:03
Kentaro
You know, and I just like, this is like, actual real math, like, you know, like, well, this is how we use it in the world. I mean, or I was thinking about my my college friend who, you know, works at Google in his works, you know, as a manager in the quantum AI group or whatever. And I’m like, oh, like when they do math or whatever, you know, like it’s like they collaborate about it, they share data.
00:48:00:04 – 00:48:24:18
Kentaro
They, you know, they talk it through. They can of course, go online for anything, any, you know, but but our tests taking like situations are just so odd. Right. Like it’s a piece of paper or it might, might be online but you know it’s timed. It’s usually individual. It’s like, you know, answer these questions. And this is going to show you know, how to, you know, math.
00:48:24:20 – 00:48:45:02
Kentaro
And I just think it’s just so ludicrous to me, you know, because really when we use math in the world, it’s like it’s always in a collaborative environment. Or if someone checks our work, are we someone just part of the work? It might be data collection and someone else interprets the data, you know, so it’s very much more of a team effort.
00:48:45:02 – 00:49:11:10
Kentaro
And so anyway, I just think, it just points out, like, how antiquated our school system is and, and also just how, just how out of touch we are. Right. So what does it look like to really set students up to be able to engage in, in, like, kind of the real world or real world mathematics? But also this also has just stresses, like all the different competencies and smartness that we need to operate.
00:49:11:10 – 00:49:41:06
Kentaro
And so and that, that, you know, one of the premises of this work in complex instruction is, you know, like we all bring something, but no one brings everything. And and that is true. Right? Like so in, in the, in the work we do, it’s always better. Like we’re collaborating. So the product is always better. So, anyway, I just, I just want to build off of that from your, your earlier part of the question.
00:49:41:11 – 00:50:19:20
Rée
Yeah. And thank you for sharing that because really the next part that I wanted to ask you about is that collaboration piece or the project, the project, the project based learning, piece. Because so I went to an elementary school, so I’m a very tactile learner. I learned this a lot. I mean, I, I think I actually learned this when I was younger, but I cognitively was made aware of this more recently that, I actually code a lot of things into memory when I’m actually, like, doing things with my hands.
00:50:19:22 – 00:51:06:22
Rée
You know, I was an art major and, like, you know, a very creative person. And I think when I’m interacting with people, when I’m interacting with things, it’s very hard for me to learn in a classroom setting because 90% of the time I am performing that I’m listening, not actually retaining what I’m listening to. And so I you were talking about, like, you know, schools being antiquated and, you know, I mean, first of all, you have been able to help students achieve a lot of success, within this antiquated system that we’re talking about.
00:51:06:22 – 00:51:36:06
Rée
You know, I think you even got, like, the presidential award, at the white House, right, for, achieving, a lot for teaching students, and raising test scores and things like that. And so, you know, you have been able to to beat the antiquated system and actually make it work. But I’m wondering if we were to sort of like redesign from the ground up.
00:51:36:08 – 00:52:10:18
Rée
And kind of build for people with more diverse competencies and abilities and people who are tactile learners and people with ADHD and all of these things. I’m just kind of wondering, like, how would you recommend that we sort of bring in that project based learning element kind of like what you were talking about with your son and your wife, where you’re like, actually diagraming, or trying to build this room with the furniture and things like that, like, how can we do that at scale?
00:52:10:19 – 00:52:12:08
Rée
Yeah. Do you think?
00:52:12:10 – 00:52:31:07
Kentaro
Yeah. No. Thank you for, great question. Just to kind of go back to just part of what you brought up and then, then I’ll try to the, the, it just first thinking all your, your thoughts. I do want to just, just say or clarify really. Because I think that narrative often can be like, oh, you as an individual accomplish this.
00:52:31:09 – 00:53:14:09
Kentaro
And I do just very much want to say like it was very much, I know I both had amazing collaborators in terms of math educators, our department leaders within our school, our our district, other schools, like we did get to work with, you know, Joe Boulders real estate hired. And I just want to call that out because I want to just say, I certainly know, and I know I’ve built off of the shoulders of many people who’ve come before me that I feel very like fortunate, that I feel like I landed in a great place at Michigan High, that really changed the trajectory of my career and my life.
00:53:14:11 – 00:53:40:09
Kentaro
And it was really people who, like, came into my life and I just feel very grateful to have been able to collaborate with them. And just and maybe that is like this theme of this collaboration work I get to do, like knowing it’s not it’s not an individual, story. It’s very much a collective story. And it’s, you know, just to counter the narrative in our, at least in the US, about rugged individualism.
00:53:40:09 – 00:54:01:03
Kentaro
So very much wanted to call that in, even Zoraida Hammond, like early on, before she had written her book, she was leading professional learning and development in San Francisco Unified. I mean, Joe Boulder before she, you know, created this massive, you know, youtubed work and, you know, national work. I mean, just just that she was she came to Mission High for a day even.
00:54:01:03 – 00:54:31:19
Kentaro
I mean, just this collaboration that I feel like I was very grateful to, engage in. So I just want to call that in, right now. And I think that just in terms of your your question about the antiquated system and building for people, and scale. So, I mean, I just want one piece of this, work, like, I recognize right now that this system is the way it is and it’s antiquated and generally, the work I do is within the system as it exists.
00:54:31:19 – 00:55:12:08
Kentaro
Like, I think it will require so much to change the larger system. I do believe fundamentally, that there’s there’s just an element of almost like our own consciousness. I think there’s a quote by Albert Einstein or something about just if we want to, change any kind of, any issue, any problem in a system like we have to change our, our own consciousness because, if we, if we maintain the same consciousness with which we’ve solved our problems, everything’s going to stay the same, and we need something else.
00:55:12:08 – 00:55:35:17
Kentaro
So I, I do believe, like there is this deeper level within us, within, our own, like, work, internally, that we need to, engage with. So, there’s a researcher at MIT, I think his name is Otto sama, and I’ve just started listening to some of his work, but really around like this, consciousness based systems change.
00:55:35:19 – 00:56:07:01
Kentaro
And I’ve just become intrigued just in the last week. And I’m really intrigued by this work because I do really fundamentally believe the system will change out of a change in like our own consciousness, and mindfulness. Okay. So that said, in terms of, of, models, you know, from our Harvard program, one of, our colleagues, Tyler Thigpen, has started a school, it’s called the Forest School.
00:56:07:01 – 00:56:28:04
Kentaro
It’s, self-directed learning. And they asked me to read recently, draft of a book that they’re publishing. And it I was really taken by it because it really looks at, sort of this how to guide around self-directed learning and what does that look like within a school, and how do you set up structures and systems?
00:56:28:06 – 00:56:56:15
Kentaro
So to really promote that so students can engage in and in that so I, you know, certainly, there are elements, you know, things like we, we, we sort students by grade or by age and, you know, all of those, like just a traditional approaches and why like, why do we do this? And, you know, again, like based on the factory model and, you know, our schools based on the factory model and all of that.
00:56:56:15 – 00:57:36:19
Kentaro
And, so we just have a history and we, you know, we do this out of, efficiency and out of like, cost savings and etc., etc.. So certainly I think there are, there are models that really look at, at this I think or about how to potentially change the system. I think, not to be a downer, but I think for me, I right now am focusing my work on the existing system and sort of saying like, what are the changes we can enact within the system as it exists?
00:57:36:21 – 00:58:08:04
Kentaro
I think other people, their work is really about changing the structures, towards, towards like more like, a different vision of it. And I think, I think for me, what I’m interested in right now is a recognizing the existing system is very, full of problems, full of issues. And yet that is where the vast, vast, vast majority of our students in the US go.
00:58:08:06 – 00:58:34:02
Kentaro
And so because of that, what is needed to change, to change that and I mean, going again, back to, this work by Shaumbra at MIT, I mean this consciousness based. I mean, I think there is this level of that is some of it is it’s like, can we change the consciousness of educators and recognize, like their, their role, their their impact?
00:58:34:04 – 00:59:08:21
Kentaro
And what does that look like? Within our system, so that we can change experiences and outcomes for our students, particularly black and brown students. And what does that look like to be able to do that? And, I also just recognize very much like I’m also just implicated in all of this work, too. Like, I have to constantly interrogate myself around just ways that I have status and power.
00:59:08:21 – 00:59:49:19
Kentaro
I use and abuse it, and I need to be called out on it. And, you know, I mean, there are people my wife, you know, friends, who colleagues from my Harvard program and others who call me out. And, and I really appreciate that. And I need that because, you know, we’re all, like, part of this problem. And so anyway, just, just really, I think needing that and needing to really nurture this, you know, if it is this consciousness based, change, then I need to nurture that, because I’m getting the privilege of working with so many leaders and and educators.
00:59:49:21 – 01:00:19:07
Kentaro
But if I’m not aware of that impact, then I’m just perpetuating all the issues within the system. So anyway, I think just just wanting to say that, like I, I very much take a lot of take this with a lot of responsibility, but also just recognize like, I’m, I’m in constant need of this challenge and change. And you know, anyway, I just want to say that.
01:00:19:09 – 01:01:01:04
Rée
Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. And, you know, I just recently finished, taking a course through ideas New and it’s called, human system, human centered systems thinking. And, we, one of the reading assignments wasn’t a recent reading assignment, but it was reading, thinking and systems, by Donella meadows. And, she has, like, these 12, ways of intervening in a system, going from most effective to least effective.
01:01:01:04 – 01:01:34:13
Rée
Well, it’s in reverse in the way that she’s written it. And, I think the closer we get to, like this consciousness piece that you’re talking about, that’s like, that is probably the biggest lever that you could sort of manipulate to actually achieve, systemic change. And so I think you’re on to something here about like the mindsets and the behaviors being, at that consciousness level of being able to change the thinking.
01:01:34:15 – 01:02:00:15
Rée
And I know you said you didn’t want to be a downer. And, you know, you’re like, sticking with how to change the existing system. And I think everybody is needed in all the different, like everybody’s everybody is needed all hands on deck, you know, and like nurturing the next generation of young people is is an all consuming thing.
01:02:00:15 – 01:02:26:17
Rée
And we need people everywhere doing this work. And so I kind of wanted to ask you a little bit about that mindset and the behavior, something that I learned very early on. In doing this podcast is what I didn’t understand for a long time, is that the education system is really designed for the success of the economy.
01:02:26:18 – 01:03:04:04
Rée
Earlier you were talking about like, the factory model and you know, how the industrial revolution really is. What started, you know, the education model that we see. And when I realized that, I was like, oh, because that’s in direct conflict with the success of every child. Because if the economy’s goal is for it to be competitive and, everybody has to know everything, then it really comes at the cost of being able to tailor and nurture the gifts of each child.
01:03:04:06 – 01:03:43:09
Rée
And lead in connection with, right, instead of against and competing with. And so I guess, like if we are going to kind of like peel back the layers on this consciousness piece that you’re talking about, which I’m kind of relating to, the mindsets and behaviors, I’m wondering, what do you think is the big mindset shift that you’re taking or that you’re believing or that you’re working, towards changing to, within the existing education system?
01:03:43:14 – 01:03:45:07
Rée
I don’t know if that was like a huge ramble.
01:03:45:08 – 01:04:25:08
Kentaro
Like, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, what comes to mind, I, I do appreciate the, the link of, of just as our education system, really set up just to support and, maintain and perpetuate that capitalist, you know, system. We have our the economic model of our of our country and world and, you know, our in many ways, our world, you know, and what comes to mind and, you know, I’ve said this in some conferences that where I facilitated such as but, you know, I really do fundamentally believe that that, you know, within capitalism, right there, there you have to have like haves and have nots or you have to have
01:04:25:08 – 01:04:53:12
Kentaro
the bourgeois proletariat or whatever you have to have various like, classes, you know, and, and for it to operate and very much. Right. Like we, we set up our school system to have that, within schools between schools, within, you know, communities, between communities. So very much, you know, that, that, that we are perpetuating that, and building towards that.
01:04:53:13 – 01:05:30:12
Kentaro
And so I think some of, the shift and change, like I hope to, to be a be part of with this mindset shift your, your raising or this consciousness, shift is really one of, of asking. I mean, like, like really getting to students like, can they can students recognize, can their mindsets be be shifted to recognize sort of what, what a lot I mean, just in terms of like, what is it they bring?
01:05:30:12 – 01:06:13:10
Kentaro
Because I, I’m particularly students who their met. The messages they’ve gotten throughout our whole school system has been that they are lacking, that they don’t bring, don’t bring anything worthwhile to the system, to education, all of that. And, you know, I think one of the most beautiful parts of complex instruction and one of the most powerful parts is really, you know, these these competencies that are both academic, but also, you know, based on like, social, emotional and, you know, around communication and collaboration, but saying these are competencies that are needed for us to do work and do work well, and to really actually go deep into the mathematics, like these are all needed.
01:06:13:12 – 01:06:46:19
Kentaro
So I think some of the consciousness or mindset shift is wanting to really, instill that in students and build this sense of like student efficacy. That’s one level, of course, but really also then getting to the educator because I think there is this, mindset, within educators too, of needing that, that really change. I think both how they view students, particularly how they sort, I’ll include myself.
01:06:46:19 – 01:07:15:03
Kentaro
We sort students, we saw others, like, I don’t want to create a they we like dichotomy. So like, I want to include myself. So we, we sort and we, we have a hierarchy of what’s valued, who’s valued, what are the traits that are valued? So really wanting to confront that and ask us to change, our views around that.
01:07:15:05 – 01:07:37:01
Kentaro
With the like, intention and the hope and the, the really concrete outcome of seeing students who have not traditionally succeeded succeed, by, by a variety of metrics. So I think that’s, that is just some of what like we, I really would love to be about.
01:07:37:03 – 01:07:37:18
Rée
Yeah.
01:07:37:19 – 01:07:46:15
Kentaro
And really wanting to see that, that change. So yeah, let me stop there.
01:07:46:17 – 01:08:18:00
Rée
Yeah. No, that’s that’s really good. I’m just kind of thinking, like, a lot of people, when I ask them about their like, challenge stories or, you know, adversity stories of maybe, teaching moments from their school years. They always talk about their math classes and how a lot of, like, the traumas, the academic traumas kind of come from not being able to perform in, in these math classes.
01:08:18:02 – 01:09:14:21
Rée
And so I would, I think you kind of talked a little bit about this, about like how you’ve been addressing student engagement, with math in schools, and you know, what you’re doing, differently, to prevent these traumas. But I was wondering if you, could sort of share some tangible stories or, some very specific things that are happening in the classrooms of teachers that you are training, around leading with curiosity and connection, where they’re not, you know, experiencing these types of traumas, but they’re leading more with or that, I guess, that your teachers are equipping these students with more confidence and self-efficacy, rather than like saying,
01:09:14:21 – 01:09:23:13
Rée
oh, you’re not measuring up to these standards or things like that. So if you have any like tangible stories or success stories or things like that.
01:09:23:15 – 01:10:15:08
Kentaro
Sure. So some we are in the midst of like data collection for some of this work in, particularly in Cambridge, because that the the district has really incorporated this are implemented this work around complex instruction around the district. So we’re we’re in you know, we’re in data collection stage. But that said, you know, some of the, some of the feedback has been like one from teachers, like their reflections, their, their anecdotal stories, their, their surveys, and being able to read the ways in which they are seeing the classroom differently, seeing themselves differently, seeing the, the art and practice of teaching differently, and how they’re trying to change.
01:10:15:10 – 01:10:38:15
Kentaro
I think some evidence has been like through like some video, like we’ve been able to collect and watching, teachers in the classroom and ways that they’ve, they’ve really changed their approaches. Some teachers have interviewed students and have we’ve we’ve been able to video some of the student interviews to hear what they’re seeing and experiencing.
01:10:38:17 – 01:11:05:06
Kentaro
I think we’re we’re trying to collect even I mean, at this stage, like, you know, some grades, data, some, you know, some of the standardized data like that, that’ll come, you know, I think one I mean, just one story, one of the teachers shared at, Cambridge Region that and so the high school in Cambridge was by incorporating some of these structures and systems, around complex instruction and ways students are working together.
01:11:05:08 – 01:11:34:01
Kentaro
There are, you know, one of the tests that she had given, in prior years, this year, she said, oh, the students actually scored far higher than they ever have, like in contrast to prior years. So she was just reflecting on ways that that was, that was happening, like even just at the level of like this one test that she may have given prior years, but to see students, their engagement.
01:11:34:01 – 01:11:54:22
Kentaro
But again, we are in like data collection phase. So it would be really intriguing. It is really hard though, with data not to make an excuse, but, you know, it’s really hard to move the needle in education. There’s so many variables and it’s like, you know what? What you know what what shifts, what changes the needle.
01:11:55:00 – 01:12:17:17
Kentaro
It’s not, you know, one, you know, big question. And, you know, another question is like, well, you know, how much are teachers incorporating this method or, you know, buying in and then, you know, so some of some of that definitely is at play with, with this. And anyway, I think so I think that’s some of, some of what, we’re, we’re collecting.
01:12:17:18 – 01:12:21:21
Kentaro
Anyway, so that’s. Yeah, it’s it’s definitely a work in progress though.
01:12:21:23 – 01:13:11:03
Rée
Yeah. For sure. And if you’re still in data collection phase. Yeah, I totally understand. And so I guess kind of like wrapping up here. I’d love to know, a little bit about when we look at your entire journey of starting, you know, in the public schools and then, applying to the high school, the, the, the private school and getting a scholarship and then, going through, Stanford and then Harvard and then, you know, being able to teach and, train educators in so many different school districts from both, you know, all across the country, from the West Coast to the East Coast.
01:13:11:05 – 01:13:46:04
Rée
I’m just kind of wondering when you look at your journey of, education to career, and to making the impact that you have and continue to do. I’m wondering, is there anything you wish you had learned sooner, or is there any skill that you wish you could have learned while you were still in school? To have either better prepared you for your career or your, I guess the social impact work that you do now.
01:13:46:06 – 01:14:11:12
Kentaro
No, I appreciate that. You know, one thought that just comes to mind, so I, I’m 51 right now, and I went to the Harvard doctoral program just six years ago, so I was 45. It was a mid-career doctoral program. And their, tagline is transform self to transform sector. Which I really appreciate. So I think, I think that has been just so much of the work.
01:14:11:12 – 01:14:32:23
Kentaro
I certainly look back at my life and, you know, I mean, we started the podcast about my childhood and, you know, certainly recognizing like from that, I there were many ways that I interacted with people in the work and, and myself, it relates myself, you know, just out of a place of like, it wasn’t great.
01:14:32:23 – 01:15:12:07
Kentaro
Like, I certainly know I had so much anger and and, and really, what led me to the Harvard doctoral program at age 45 was because I call it my midlife crisis doctorate, because it really was this, you know, time of wanting to reevaluate how I was approaching life and work, and seeing that in the midst of fighting, which I do see, like the work in education and then in the work of social justice, like there is elements of fighting, but needing, wanting to fight better and not being overcome and overtaken by anger.
01:15:12:07 – 01:15:53:13
Kentaro
And I certainly recognize that ways in which I had led at Michigan High, other places, my church, my, work, my family was really, at a place where I needed a transformation and I wanted to engage differently. And so I think that is something really at a deep, fundamental level of wanting that change. And, you know, very much like this Harvard doctoral program, I feel like the ways people described it was they break you down and build you back up.
01:15:53:13 – 01:16:28:20
Kentaro
And it really was that for me. And it was, an incredible experience with 24 colleagues, this cohort of 25 from around the country who just, you know, arm in arm, we we really worked together to build each other up. And also call each other out. And it was very much what I needed. So I guess what I wish I had learned was like, what does it look like to be able to really engage in this, like deeper work of transformation?
01:16:28:20 – 01:17:00:15
Kentaro
Like if we want transformation within the system very much recognized, like we ourselves are a system like individually like. So we need to transform that system like we need to individually, you know, change or like change and transform and what’s, what’s going to be needed for that. And I think it’s it may be very different for each person, but anyway, wanting to engage in that, and I mean, the other thing that just comes to mind, I think is certainly like learning from so many of the failures.
01:17:00:15 – 01:17:31:02
Kentaro
And, you know, I hope I can when I lead trainings or, you know, that I can share these failures too. Like, it’s not like all of this was a success story. I certainly made so many mistakes and, you know, failed, hurt people. All of that. Right. Like conflict. So anyway, just ways in which that is part of the learning too.
01:17:31:02 – 01:18:01:17
Kentaro
And then what, what is needed for us to share those stories also because I think that is frequently the biggest learning happens from like our sharing, our failures and and then learning from them and then others being able to learn from them as well. So, and certainly in that moment or in the, you know, like current state of my life, like encountering these failures daily.
01:18:01:17 – 01:18:24:17
Kentaro
And so, you know, what does that look like to be able to own them, to address them? You know, my favorite Franciscan friar, author named Richard Aurora, you know, talks about praying for a daily humiliation. And not to I think I don’t I hope this doesn’t sound, you know, but, but more on this, this idea of like, oh, do we learn, right?
01:18:24:17 – 01:18:55:04
Kentaro
We I mean, I don’t mean this to sound like, you know, whatever harmful to self at all, but more of like, well, what is the learning we’re going to engage in? And we are going to fail and we are going to experience humiliation. And that’s part of the work. Like, I think if we’re doing something worthwhile and risky, that’s going to be just some of what we, we, encounter along that journey.
01:18:55:04 – 01:19:27:03
Kentaro
And so, and then last thing I’ll just say is, you know, my colleague, Charlotte Jackson talks about, like, you know, like, let’s to extend grace, to grow like, extend ourselves, extend to ourselves, grace to grow. Let’s just extend it to others. We’re all in this journey and like, what is it look like to be able to offer that to ourselves and to others, so that there is this really safe and vibrant, vibrant place to, to experience growth?
01:19:27:05 – 01:19:34:08
Kentaro
And we feel like we can so yeah, those are some, some reflections. Thank you.
01:19:34:10 – 01:20:05:14
Rée
Those were really beautiful reflections. And like the question that I had was when you talk about that anger, that you had that you were working through, I’m wondering, like, you don’t have to share, more. But I do want to know, like, do you think that anger was, anger towards yourself, or do you think it was anger towards society?
01:20:05:16 – 01:20:41:07
Kentaro
Well, one, I would just say I hope I’ve learned to channel the anger towards I don’t know, I think I know some people or some faith traditions call it like righteous anger, but I hope that I have been able to actually channel it in, like a positive like, like for, like in a motivating arena because there are like our society is so messed up, like there are things that we have to get angry about and I think, and so but it really is a matter of just how do we, what do we do with that anger, that where do we channel it?
01:20:41:10 – 01:21:18:00
Kentaro
How do we how do we express it in a productive way that, produces the outcomes we want? Whereas I would say prior, the anger really it controlled me like I and I, you know, so that was much more, my history with, with that anger, you know, I just in terms of your question about where it’s directed, I think it probably was directed at both, like self and others and society, you know, I mean, I think, you know, something I’m learning, certainly growing up in the family I did with, with anger or anger issues around me and my own anger issues.
01:21:18:00 – 01:21:40:08
Kentaro
Yeah. I think it was very easy to blame and that I know that that’s, that’s a reflex I have. So to really guard against that, you know, and people close to me, friends or my wife who will call me out on that, like, oh, you’re blaming because it’s a defense mechanism or it’s, your reflex or instinct.
01:21:40:10 – 01:22:05:19
Kentaro
But, you know, a lot of the work, like I try to lead with educators is like, this work around what’s often called discourse one and discourse two, but really from the language of blame to the language of responsibility, like, it’s not, we take responsibility, right? Like, so, but anyway, so just at that fundamental level that I need to, like, I’m implicated in.
01:22:05:21 – 01:22:34:06
Kentaro
So I need to make sure I’m also not blaming. And I need to take responsibility for my actions, for my emotions, for the anger I have. And, you know, how am I going to direct that, productively into the world and channel it hopefully in a in a productive manner? Maybe I could just offer one quick story that so with Cambridge, with this like with this language of blame and language of responsibility, it has it was really intriguing.
01:22:34:12 – 01:22:55:20
Kentaro
I had the opportunity to work with the the math educators right after school ended, which is a really hard time, so that everyone’s exhausted. But, you know, we took up a problem statement and we looked at we tried to engage in root cause analysis. This five Y protocol around this problem statement of we are failing our black students in math.
01:22:55:22 – 01:23:31:18
Kentaro
And even that language, the way we phrased it is important. It’s not black students are failing math or Cambridge. The district is failing black students in math, but really trying to own it. And then also, though the challenge of that right for educators to engage in that, to see how we are responsible. And so, you know, that’s something I learned at Michigan High and and, you know, hopefully it’s something I can carry over into my life.
01:23:31:20 – 01:24:07:05
Kentaro
But to say, like what? Where is the place I’m responsible, and what is it all that I can do within my whatever locus of control or whatever. But really, like starting with that question of like, what’s my responsibility in this? And what’s my, you know, where am I implicated in this? So anyway, just like that, that comes to mind of, again, some of the courageous work that Cambridge is doing, but also I feel very privileged to facilitate and leave and we’ll return to this work in the next school year.
01:24:07:07 – 01:24:11:17
Kentaro
Because certainly it’s, it’s a long road and. Yeah. So yeah.
01:24:11:19 – 01:24:36:01
Rée
Yeah, it’s a journey. But, thank you so much for sharing that. It was very visually evocative and, I think it nailed in what you were sharing. And so I guess my very last question to you is, do you have any words of wisdom for the next generation and their parents and educators?
01:24:36:03 – 01:25:05:03
Kentaro
So I what comes to mind is just that we need you. We can, like the world, need you. We need all of you. I think what comes to mind is just a lot of the work, like Rochelle Gutierrez, around humanizing mathematics. But really this work of saying, we need your the fullness of all of who you are in this world, we need it in our classrooms.
01:25:05:03 – 01:25:39:00
Kentaro
We need it in society. We often just ask students and each other educators to leave so much of ourselves at the door. And what we really need is the fullness of people. All that they bring, all of the richness of their history, their their ancestors. Like all of this, we need to bring in and we’re made better because of it, and we need to learn how to incorporate that fullness to our classroom settings and to our society and to our work with each other.
01:25:39:02 – 01:26:07:18
Kentaro
So even so, I guess my my message would be even though our system often will want to like, squash that out or ask you leave this at the door. My ask would be please bring it. We need and we need you, and we need the fullness of you. The world needs it. We need it. We’re we’re made better, for it.
01:26:07:19 – 01:26:16:17
Rée
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.
References
- Complex instruction (website)
- Detracking + Heterogeneous groupings (article)
- Only For My Kid by Alfie Kohn (article)
- Cambridge Rindge and Latin (Wikipedia article)
- https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/128664.C_Otto_Scharmer (website)
- Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows (book)
- The Forest School (website)
- On Being with Father Richard Rohr (interview transcript)
- Rehumanizing Math by Rochelle Gutierrez (video)