Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Adrienne, a senior marketing executive, lifelong reader, and mom of two, about her education journey as the first person in her family to go to college. We talk about how her childhood love of reading fiction and memoirs translated to her studies in business school and the world of finance, and what Wharton taught her about surviving in the real world—along with what it didn’t. On that note, we also discuss what it means to be a mom who has to juggle parenting and career, and what she thinks we need to do better to prepare the next generation for the future ahead.
Here’s our edited conversation.
Auto-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:12 – 00:00:27:07
Speaker 1
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:27:09 – 00:00:49:14
Speaker 1
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:49:16 – 00:01:12:11
Speaker 1
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be. What it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers, with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Adrian, a senior marketing executive, lifelong reader, and mom of two.
00:01:12:15 – 00:01:41:19
Speaker 1
About her education journey as the first person in her family to go to college. We talk about how her childhood love of reading fiction and memoirs translated to her studies in business school and the world of finance, and what Wharton taught her about surviving in the real world along with what it didn’t. On that note, we also discussed what it means to be a mom who has to juggle parenting and career and what she thinks we need to do better to prepare the next generation for the future ahead.
00:01:41:21 – 00:01:48:19
Speaker 1
Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:48:21 – 00:02:17:05
Speaker 2
That’s such a great question. I haven’t really thought about that in a very long time. I was a bookworm. I was really into reading. I that was a huge part of my childhood. And I had a, you know, I started reading very early. My, town had a library that I could walk to. When I was in elementary school, I was pretty close to the library.
00:02:17:05 – 00:02:59:05
Speaker 2
So I spent my summers going to the library and, like, the community pool. I didn’t go to camp or have, like, lots of activities. I had a very 70s American childhood in that. You know, it it wasn’t so structured. So after school, I didn’t have the way like American kids have now. Lots of, activities that are organized where there’s carpooling and, you know, all sorts of, you know, scheduling and, yeah, I had a very free range, 70s childhood that, involved a lot of reading.
00:02:59:07 – 00:03:23:06
Speaker 2
Playing outside with my friends, like, biking around and, that sort of thing. And so, you know, in terms of how I was as a student, I think that informed my, like, sort of myself in the classroom, like that lack of external structure. And my parents were very much, you know, they’re very comfortable with like, go outside, come home for dinner.
00:03:23:08 – 00:03:44:12
Speaker 2
So I had a lot of freedom. And I think I really appreciated that in the classroom. Like that’s what really motivated me as a student was sort of the ability to pursue my own interests. You know, whatever I was reading about, like, I like to kind of connect that to what I wanted to do in the classroom, too.
00:03:44:12 – 00:03:56:21
Speaker 2
So, yeah, I don’t I think that’s probably a good start. What else should I’m trying to frame that I it’s hard to think about.
00:03:56:23 – 00:04:23:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I those are. Well, I think what’s interesting is, like the first things that sort of come to the surface when, I asked this question to people, I’m always curious, like, what comes out because people go in such different directions. So I love that you shared about, like, being a bookworm and that you had a lot of freedom to pursue, like your curiosities.
00:04:23:21 – 00:04:49:12
Speaker 1
You didn’t have a lot of restrictions. Your parents told you that you could do, you know, whatever you wanted, just be home by a certain time. And I’m kind of curious, like where do you think the bookworm, where do you think you and you inherited that love of reading? What? Did your parents model that for you? Was that something that was common that your teachers told you was the thing to do?
00:04:49:15 – 00:05:00:05
Speaker 1
Were other people bookworms? Was that something that was unique to you? Where your circles of friends, bookworms. I’m curious about those kinds of things.
00:05:00:07 – 00:05:40:09
Speaker 2
That’s also a really good question. And, that my parents were not readers. There were no books in my house. You know, and. Yeah. And so, I mean, I, I think we have like a set of encyclopedias, but like, we didn’t have books around the house and my parents really weren’t readers. And, so I think for me, it was a bit of an escape because, I could really sort of get into my own universe and it wasn’t as though me, my, it wasn’t like I was escaping from something, per se.
00:05:40:10 – 00:06:01:22
Speaker 2
It just was. I did feel as a kid that, you know, I had a lot of very strong academic interests that were not part of my, like, family’s interest. I was the first person in my family to go to college. My grandparents were all immigrants. None of them had gone beyond eighth grade, and not my parents did not go to college.
00:06:01:22 – 00:06:30:00
Speaker 2
So I didn’t have this, like, strong sort of academic background. And I think I also received some I the one of my grandparents was like very supportive of my reading, but it wasn’t. I do feel like there was occasions where it was a bit of a conflict with my family, because I would get so into my book to the extent that I would shut out what was going on around me.
00:06:30:00 – 00:06:54:18
Speaker 2
And so that’s when I say it was a little bit of an escape. I just was very absorbed in my reading. I think in the classroom, I did have a couple of teachers who really encouraged that, and were and in particular a librarian who I just have such fond memories. She knew me very well, and she knew my reading interest.
00:06:54:20 – 00:07:16:02
Speaker 2
And I would come to the library every week and she would have pre-selected books for me. And it was like I felt so special and cared for, and it was such a wonderful thing. Like, she really understood my love of reading and encouraged it. And I love that she would, think of books for me that I would like to read.
00:07:16:02 – 00:07:46:00
Speaker 2
And so every week I would come home with, like the selection of books that were just like, wonderful. And so, I just have such, like, fond memories of that, you know, I got mixed messages from school also because I sometimes would read under the desk, you know, and like, I was bored and I would read and, you know, sometimes teachers would get aggravated because I wasn’t as engaged in, like the lesson, but it was like I felt a little bit bored at school at times.
00:07:46:00 – 00:07:50:21
Speaker 2
And so it was a little, you know, sometimes mixed messaging I got from my teachers at that age.
00:07:50:23 – 00:08:22:21
Speaker 1
That’s so funny. I did hear a, a for, a previous guest on this podcast talked about how she would get in trouble for reading under the table because she was so bored, and I just find that really fascinating because that’s something that I would have never thought to do. Like, yeah, I was I always kind of felt behind, and I never felt like, I had the freedom to do what I wanted to do.
00:08:22:23 – 00:08:42:23
Speaker 1
And so. And I just love this librarian that you had that knew what books you might like. What genres do you think you gravitated towards? Was there like an author or type of writing or a style that you really looked forward to? Was it like the worldbuilding that you were interested in? Was it like the character development?
00:08:43:01 – 00:08:50:22
Speaker 1
What do you think it was about these books that, you were so fascinated by?
00:08:51:00 – 00:09:27:06
Speaker 2
Certainly fiction was a general, you know, that’s pretty broad. But I also really loved memoirs like autobiography is like, I think, character development and people’s stories. I was trying to understand, like, what makes somebody who they are, you know, and so kind of that connection, like in fiction, the character development as well as in sort of the memoir and autobiographies, who people are and how they describe themselves and kind of what makes them tick, like where, you know, how did they get to where they are, like, what’s their path?
00:09:27:06 – 00:09:43:08
Speaker 2
And so I looked for that often in the you know, fiction books that I read as well. So I think there was a connection and even to this day, like, that’s those are the books that I would choose, like now over other books. So, yeah.
00:09:43:10 – 00:10:00:08
Speaker 1
Oh, wow. That kind of really stuck with you. I wonder, I wonder what kinds of expectations did your parents have of you and your education?
00:10:00:10 – 00:10:33:13
Speaker 2
You know, they were very much about, like, you should do your best. They did not put any pressure on me at all in any way to achieve like, for them, that was like, I think they were sort of, it was a little bit remarkable, like how how far I went, because I don’t think that there was any sense of, like, you should do this or you should push yourself or, you know, it was very I was very self-directed.
00:10:33:15 – 00:10:59:09
Speaker 2
And so, I think honestly, that is preferable in many ways to, you know, when I know friends or colleagues who had a lot of parental pressure and I felt like that was really difficult, and I never felt that. So I felt like whatever I did was like, fine. And they were never, you know, I put a lot of pressure on myself to achieve.
00:10:59:09 – 00:11:17:22
Speaker 2
It was not external. Like I didn’t feel that at all for my family. And I think sometimes they felt surprised by where, like, where I was going, what I was doing, you know,
00:11:18:00 – 00:11:19:09
Speaker 3
I had.
00:11:19:11 – 00:11:43:18
Speaker 2
Gotten a, like, full ride to rectors, and I went to visit, and I hated it. I literally was like, you know, my school that I went to in high school was like a very large, mediocre public school. And I went to Rutgers and I’m like, this feels like I don’t this is a continuation of my high school in many ways.
00:11:43:18 – 00:12:07:01
Speaker 2
And I just was like, I really don’t want to do this. And I had gotten into the University of Chicago and I went to visit and I was like, these are my people. Like, I want to come here like, this is what I want to do. And it was more expensive. But I decided I’m not. I really wanted that so much.
00:12:07:01 – 00:12:27:23
Speaker 2
I wanted to go there. Like, I was like, this is I just felt this connection because it was so cerebral and academic, and it was like all the things that I was sort of missing in my, you know, upbringing. It was like the life of the mind and all of the emphasis on like, books. And, you know, I just wanted that so badly.
00:12:27:23 – 00:12:41:21
Speaker 2
So I told my parents that I’m not going to, Rutgers and I’m going to go there and I’m going to get a job and pay for the difference and etc.. So I did, and that’s where I wound up going, wow.
00:12:41:23 – 00:13:07:04
Speaker 1
That’s incredible. And I know you studied, you have your bachelor’s in English literature. So I was like, oh, that’s a nice continuation of like, your love of looks. Did you know that you would be an English major or, what led you to actually pursuing that path? And what did you think you would do after you got that degree?
00:13:07:06 – 00:13:30:08
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. No, I you know, I didn’t know for certain, but I had a pretty good idea. I mean, I felt like how wonderful I could spend my college years reading and that’s my major. So, like, it felt like a natural continuation. I looked at other majors, but it really was such a natural kind of fit for my interests.
00:13:30:10 – 00:14:02:01
Speaker 2
And I thought, well, maybe I should go after college and get like a master’s degree and a PhD and then be a professor of English literature. And, you know, the issue is like, I’m not really a writer. I am a reader. And so I don’t enjoy, like, creating, like the act of writing. It’s not something that I dislike, but it’s not like I’m drawn to that as like the thing that I want to be doing with my time.
00:14:02:03 – 00:14:26:03
Speaker 2
And so I really like I don’t think I really understood that until later, but I wasn’t clear on what I should do after, undergrad. And so I applied to these like, masters and PhD programs like joint programs, and English literature. And I got rejected from all of them. Wow. Then I was like, oh, that was surprising.
00:14:26:08 – 00:14:49:10
Speaker 2
I hadn’t really I was like, oh, I don’t really I haven’t had that experience of like not getting something right. That was sort of like the first time where I’m like, oh, wow, I had this plan and it like, did not come together at all. So I thought, okay, well, I’m just going to get a job. And I’m like, I want to live in New York.
00:14:49:12 – 00:15:10:15
Speaker 2
So I’m going to get a job that will enable me to pay for myself and live in New York City. So I thought, okay, well, I love books. I’m going to look at like published working in the publishing industry. And then I saw the salaries and I was like, what? I don’t know how people live like this. It’s like $18,000 a year was like the starting salary at that time.
00:15:10:17 – 00:15:29:09
Speaker 2
What I didn’t realize is, like, pretty much everyone in that industry has like a trust fund or parents who are paying for them. It is not, or they live like, you know, an hour and a half outside of New York and have to commute like you can’t survive on that salary in the city. So I was like, oh, I don’t think I want to do that.
00:15:29:11 – 00:15:44:08
Speaker 2
It’s really important for me at the time, like, I want to live in Manhattan. That’s my goal. So I looked around and figured out, well, the only jobs that will allow me to afford to live here at this age is like, I have to go get a job in finance.
00:15:44:08 – 00:15:45:04
Speaker 1
Oh.
00:15:45:06 – 00:16:13:01
Speaker 2
That’s what pays. That’s what pays. And so I did I wound up getting a job at a private equity firm doing like research and some administrative staff. And it was started by a bunch of part former partners from Goldman Sachs. So like very smart, very like I really learned how to work. There. And they were like, you should go to business school.
00:16:13:04 – 00:16:41:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, I worked there for a couple of years, and I was like, business school. Really? Like, I didn’t come from that kind of background. I didn’t understand, like what that was. I didn’t really know that much about it, to be honest. And so, you know, kind of working there and working with some of the people, many of whom had MBAs, I thought, yeah, I think this could be an interesting path, and it certainly will.
00:16:41:04 – 00:17:01:15
Speaker 2
Give me a lot of skills that I don’t have already. I didn’t know, you know, I think about accounting or corporate finance or like all sorts of subjects like that. And, yeah, I wound up applying to business school at the recommendation from some of the partners there. And I got into Wharton, and then I wound up going to get my MBA.
00:17:01:17 – 00:17:07:02
Speaker 2
So it was like a very interesting kind of pivot in my career.
00:17:07:04 – 00:17:35:16
Speaker 1
Yes. But, you know, I don’t know if it was really I mean, I guess on paper it is a pivot. It’s a total pivot. But, you know, earlier you were talking about how you were like interested in memoir and autobiography and like how people think and work and tick, and, and stories. And I know you, did marketing for your MBA and that’s really kind of like understanding how people tick.
00:17:35:16 – 00:18:03:03
Speaker 1
Right? Like. Yes. And so, you know, I feel like that that’s it seems like a natural progression, to me that you would pursue an MBA in marketing, after finance. So I’m kind of curious, like, what do you think were the skills that you learned in business school that you didn’t learn prior?
00:18:03:05 – 00:18:04:18
Speaker 3
00:18:04:20 – 00:18:42:19
Speaker 2
Well, I think there were some like practical classes. You know, I was at, at University of Chicago, you know, I took like English and biology and, you know, history and sort of business school was like a trade school. It was really practical. So how to negotiate? You know, it was a class that I took, statistics, accounting, like, very practical kind of classes that would, you know, organizational behavior.
00:18:42:19 – 00:19:04:12
Speaker 2
So I felt like business school was more like a trade school, whereas like, college was, you know, it was really exploring, like my interests, in a different way. And business school was like, well, how do you take, you know, sort of all of this information and apply it in a real world setting. And so.
00:19:04:14 – 00:19:05:19
Speaker 3
00:19:05:21 – 00:19:47:08
Speaker 2
I think the there’s the it’s the practical classroom work, but I also think that it was really about how to network. Yeah. And I don’t think I had that skill before. And so really learning how, you know, I had obviously like big friends circles, but it was like understanding that the relationships you build with all these different people and how you put yourself out there is going to come back to you in lots of different ways and sort of becoming a connector and like thinking about all of these different, like, you know, sort of circles of people and where they are and how you can work together and kind of that that approach was very
00:19:47:08 – 00:19:51:19
Speaker 2
much fostered through my, you know, business school education.
00:19:51:21 – 00:20:27:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I know that after your, you graduated from Wharton, from business school, you, did a lot of incredible things, like when I read, like, things that you’ve done. You know, I also had the privilege of working for you briefly, at just like, reading of, like, all the, amazing things that you were able to do for other organizations and companies, like, you had to manage or not.
00:20:27:16 – 00:21:07:23
Speaker 1
I don’t know if manage is the right word, but you oversaw a lot of really like, multi-million dollar budgets. And, and kind of kind of like, I don’t really have the language to sort of understand what you had to do to achieve those kinds of things. But I am kind of curious, like when what was your first job after business school that, allowed you to apply what you learned into, like real time practice?
00:21:08:01 – 00:21:33:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. So my first job out of business school, I worked for Colgate Palmolive and I worked in brand management, and it was a great training program. And, you know, it was sort of very hierarchical, very structured, lots of oversight, you know, a lot of money at stake. And so there was not a lot of freedom to kind of do your own thing is really very prescribed.
00:21:33:12 – 00:22:01:08
Speaker 2
And I was there, maybe two years. And then sort of the internet revolution was happening and I thought, gosh, you know, it’s really exciting, all of this that’s going on. A friend of mine from business school reached out and said, hey, I know this startup company. They have like maybe 5 or 6 people right now, but they’re looking to bring on some, you know, some talent, like, you should go talk to them.
00:22:01:10 – 00:22:05:15
Speaker 2
It might be a good fit. So I wound up joining this startup.
00:22:05:17 – 00:22:07:04
Speaker 3
00:22:07:06 – 00:22:31:01
Speaker 2
I was they think the 10th person. And that’s where I really feel like I was able to apply lots of learnings because I had so much freedom and oversight. People were, you know, it was sort of like, we need to do this. Go figure it out, go. And there was not a lot of oversight, which I really loved.
00:22:31:01 – 00:22:56:22
Speaker 2
And I kind of bring that back to like what I liked in my childhood about, you know, having that like freewheeling, like 70s upbringing where it’s sort of like you have a lot of, you know, freedom to make choices, to kind of follow a path, like figure things out. And so it really appealed to me like that model of like, here’s the end goal, go get there.
00:22:57:00 – 00:23:22:14
Speaker 2
You can figure out how to do all the things that you need to do and like, come back, get resources, figure out what people you need, like what, you know, kind of just figuring it all out. The act of like that process to figure things out was what was really enjoyable. And also, I think where my business school background was really applied for the first time, like in a very meaningful way.
00:23:22:14 – 00:23:55:01
Speaker 2
And I had to, you know, figure out how to manage people. Yeah, I was pretty young, you know, in my 20s and, at one job that I had where someone had, quit unexpectedly. And so I was working on, like, the product and marketing side and the person who ran customer service, quit, and they asked me to take over, like, our call center and handle all, like, the fulfillment of our, you know, travel product.
00:23:55:01 – 00:24:19:00
Speaker 2
And I had this huge team, and I had never really managed a team like on that size. Many of the people on the team were older than me, really diverse backgrounds, you know, call center employees. And so I had to kind of quickly figure out how to gain their trust. And, you know, as somebody who’s like in my 20s and hadn’t worked in customer service, like, I didn’t know a lot.
00:24:19:00 – 00:24:30:03
Speaker 2
And so it was, sort of the trial by Fire. But I feel like that particular job, I really learned so much in like a year. I really did.
00:24:30:05 – 00:25:05:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, that is really amazing. I love that connection that you made from, like, you really thriving in environments where people give you a lot of freedom because you already are a very self-directed person. I wonder when when we look back at, like, your education and think about sort of the communication skills, the networking skills, the social, socializing skills that you needed to really, thrive, in these jobs that you had after business school.
00:25:05:11 – 00:25:19:06
Speaker 1
I wonder how much of that do you think you received as, like, a foundation in your, compulsory education as well as maybe your undergrad?
00:25:19:08 – 00:26:10:19
Speaker 2
I don’t think I received a lot of that, to be honest. I, I yeah, I really, I, I’m trying to think if there was anything specific, I don’t, I don’t feel like there was, there wasn’t, you know, and I’m comparing it to my kids have gone through a progressive, independent school. And one of the reasons why I really felt so strongly that they should go to that school is because of exactly that, that sort of community building and, you know, socialization and kind of like exploring your interests and really student focused learning, which was like the opposite of what I had and what I always was seeking.
00:26:10:19 – 00:26:35:11
Speaker 2
And so I feel like I recognized what I wanted, but it wasn’t in that environment. But I was kind of like always looking for that. So I don’t feel like I received it. I think I had to kind of find it and figure it out. Through many years of like trial and error, I don’t think that it was part of the educational structure of like a large public school at all.
00:26:35:16 – 00:26:59:21
Speaker 2
It was more like, you should conform. Here’s your ditto. Fill out the little circles like, you know, it was not like, wow, like how amazing. You should explore this interest. Go ahead. I mean, I had a couple of teachers who were encouraging in that way, but it was not baked into the curriculum. And I don’t think that was what was, you know, like encouraged and praised.
00:26:59:23 – 00:27:23:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so you mentioned this independent school. And I know that you, ended up working there too, for a long period of time. And you kind of were working with, again, like, I think your development director, director of development. Yeah, I was.
00:27:23:04 – 00:27:26:22
Speaker 2
Is this your director of development for close to seven years?
00:27:27:00 – 00:27:49:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so I’m kind of wondering, like what are some skills from like working in those brands, those bigger companies in that startup. What kind of skills crossed over to working in nonprofits? And, the independent school that you sent your children to?
00:27:49:22 – 00:28:35:06
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, it’s definitely, I think, a combination of, like, storytelling and relationship building. You know, those things like to really look in the development world, being able to share, you know, kind of what’s happening in the life of the school, effectively so that, you know, perspective of donors feel connected to the work that’s happening. So that’s really a lot of like marketing communications, the relationship building, like connecting with people so that they really like on an individual level so they feel, you know, they want to participate in, you know, whether that’s their time as a volunteer or making a donation.
00:28:35:06 – 00:28:56:03
Speaker 2
You know, they’re connected to the school. So the relationship building and I think, you know, the other piece that I think I brought to that role was some of those, like, hard skills in terms of like really understanding the numbers and being able to kind of build out things like a dashboard or, you know, do some like really high level analysis.
00:28:56:03 – 00:29:04:02
Speaker 2
So that sort of combined and I think, I was able to bring to that role that I held.
00:29:04:04 – 00:29:36:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s that’s awesome. So when we talk about like the, public school experience that you had and the contrast that you saw in the independent school that you sent your children to, I’m thinking about the difference, that, that, you know, compulsory education, at least in the States or a lot of different countries, their education systems are based on that Prussian model.
00:29:36:12 – 00:30:07:22
Speaker 1
It’s based on, you know, it started like in the Industrial Revolution, for the states. Right. That we were really building our children up to go into factories and do, like manual labor and, do the same things. So they just needed functioning employees. And now when we’re looking at sort of the economy now and where it’s headed, that’s not the type of student that we need.
00:30:07:22 – 00:30:38:17
Speaker 1
That’s not the type of worker that we need. And so I’m kind of wondering for you what is. The in your opinion, what do you think is the type of student we need to create, out of, you know, schools and what is the type of worker we need for our society to thrive in the future?
00:30:38:18 – 00:30:40:12
Speaker 2
That’s a big question. Yeah.
00:30:40:12 – 00:30:42:10
Speaker 1
I mean, quite fast. I’m sorry.
00:30:42:12 – 00:31:14:14
Speaker 2
I, you know, that’s okay. You know, I think being able to solve problems is a really important skill, having that sort of flexibility and creativity and sort of, you know, the world is changing really quickly. Like you look at the sort of, you know, AI and what that’s doing to, tasks that typically, you know, would take up a lot of time, like those are going away.
00:31:14:16 – 00:31:44:04
Speaker 2
And so, you know, I think about for students, it’s sort of being able to be adaptable to like learn new things, to be able to react and also be proactive and like solve problems. And I think those are the skills that like companies want. It’s not like you need to learn. I need to learn this coding language because that’s going to change, you know, but you need to be able to learn how to learn a platform or a tool and apply it.
00:31:44:06 – 00:32:08:20
Speaker 2
Like to me that’s the skill. It’s not the thing itself. It’s like I can learn things and then do them, and work with lots of different people. So the soft skills like that into building relationships and being able to work as a team and kind of those qualitative skills, I think are also going to remain very important.
00:32:08:22 – 00:32:53:15
Speaker 2
And I think now I look at like the to me, like the college model is pretty broken and so expensive. There’s a lot of like mediocre schools that are not preparing students for like work after college. And then students wind up with like a lot of debt. The whole model is just really broken, in my opinion. And so I think there needs to be like a little bit more of an emphasis on we’ve gotten so removed from like trade schools, you know, and I think there’s probably a lot of students who would be like really happy to like, learn skills where they can work with their hands, like to build things, to make things
00:32:53:15 – 00:33:08:02
Speaker 2
like that sort of maker space creators like we’ve gotten away from that. And I think, you know, Europe does a much better job, in my opinion, of kind of providing dual tracks for students.
00:33:08:04 – 00:33:09:11
Speaker 3
00:33:09:13 – 00:33:34:19
Speaker 2
Based on like, interest. And, you know, I think it would be better if we as a country can kind of look at some of that and build that back in. I know there’s a lot of emphasis too, on like community colleges, which I think are like doing some really interesting work. You know, I’ve always I love the education that I received.
00:33:34:19 – 00:34:02:11
Speaker 2
I feel like it was so helpful and like, wonderful for me. I don’t know, like, is that the model of the future? It’s hard to say. I do think that things are not working well now for of a large number of like students and especially the expense of college is just outrageous. So something has to change there.
00:34:02:13 – 00:34:32:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. And one thing that you mentioned that, you know, I see like one kind of obstacle in the way, I think there’s like, there’s like a hierarchy or like a value system of people who are blue collar versus white collar. Sure. And yeah, and people are sort of like, oh, I don’t want to do something that seen as less than, and there’s like this, you know, seeking of prestige.
00:34:32:11 – 00:34:53:15
Speaker 1
And I wonder, like, can you think of maybe one meaningful direction we could take to sort of like, unpack that shame or to kind of let go of that stigma or, you know, ease like, yeah.
00:34:53:17 – 00:35:07:02
Speaker 2
That’s a great point. I mean, I, I feel like there has to be, maybe like a combination of factors like government.
00:35:07:04 – 00:35:08:17
Speaker 3
00:35:08:18 – 00:35:36:22
Speaker 2
Celebrity. Right. Like we’re such a celebrity driven culture. Like, what if, a lot of the folks who are like, big, who are influencing young people are like, this is an amazing path and really like providing like, corroboration that like, it’s valuable. You know, I think a lot of the can you earn a living, can you have a nice life doing those sorts of skills and like communicating to people like, yes, you can.
00:35:36:22 – 00:36:05:22
Speaker 2
And this is what it looks like. Like, I don’t know that people understand what that path looks like necessarily. Or is it available like how does one do that. So I think there’s probably some communication that needs to happen. And then some like policy changes and some real like practical implementation of those policies that make it like available and affordable for students to like, pursue those paths.
00:36:06:00 – 00:36:37:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I think policy is another one of those areas that like for me is is like a red zone where I’m just like, oh my gosh, it’s so scary. Because and also it just it takes forever. Like, yes, forever. And so like when you mentioned policy is like, no, let’s come up with a solution that’s more like grass roots or that something that we can take care of without government.
00:36:37:19 – 00:36:56:18
Speaker 1
But you’re right, you know, like we do need a lot of buy in from the people who have the power to make those changes and those alternative routes or equalize those routes. So yeah, that’s a very good start.
00:36:56:20 – 00:37:19:18
Speaker 2
I think the, you know, it’s interesting. I, I do feel like this particular topic could be like a unifier, in America because everyone recognizes that this is a big problem and it doesn’t seem controversial to create paths to prosperity. Right? So, like, I feel like that’s something that probably everybody could get behind in some way.
00:37:19:19 – 00:37:47:22
Speaker 1
That’s really true. I mean, there’s so much division right now there, especially because it’s an election year. But, yeah, there’s a lot of division and a lot of, thought around that. So that’s a really good point. I’m wondering when you decided to work for these nonprofit organizations and then also schools.
00:37:48:00 – 00:37:58:09
Speaker 1
Do you feel like you were leaving anything behind? In, like, the, the private sector or.
00:37:58:11 – 00:37:59:06
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:37:59:08 – 00:38:01:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:38:01:14 – 00:38:46:14
Speaker 2
I mean, I think the salaries are lower, so certainly like, there’s that, but there’s a lot more satisfaction, at least for me, in some of the work. I feel like much. I was much more connected to the output, you know, in a nonprofit. It’s like I really felt connected to, like, the mission. And so, you know, I guess the other piece, it’s interesting, like after being in, you know, nonprofits and education for like a decade, I do think there’s because there’s, in the for profit world, more of an emphasis on.
00:38:46:16 – 00:38:49:23
Speaker 3
00:38:50:01 – 00:39:15:02
Speaker 2
Financial remuneration. Right. Like you’re getting paid for the work that you do, you in a way where if you move up the ladder, you’re earning more. It’s like it’s very like pay based. And so that’s how you’re validated in lots of ways. Right. Whereas in the nonprofit sector, that’s not how you’re validated. So you have to have some other way of validating things.
00:39:15:02 – 00:39:48:12
Speaker 2
And I think I have found that there’s more politics and like nonprofit and education space versus like the for profit world, because it’s like you’re basically, you know, you’re that’s a big difference. And so I found that, you know, leaving behind some salary was still like, for me, worth it to switch. So I didn’t feel like that was something that I couldn’t do at that time in my life.
00:39:48:14 – 00:39:53:00
Speaker 2
But I do feel like I appreciated.
00:39:53:02 – 00:39:54:14
Speaker 3
00:39:54:16 – 00:40:29:09
Speaker 2
In a way, it’s a little bit more merit based in certain respects to be in the for profit world. It’s like you have a goal, you need to hit your numbers, you need to achieve these results. And if not like there’s real consequences where in whereas in like education people, it’s a kinder and gentler environment. But you know, sometimes I think people are, there’s not as much accountability at times as I have seen in the for profit world.
00:40:29:11 – 00:41:00:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. I wanted to ask about this. I spoke with somebody on this podcast about, nonprofit organizations and almost every, like, mission based nonprofit, goal is to dissolve, because it’s mission based. And so their whole purpose is to solve a mission. And, everybody is trying to make sure that they achieve it so that they no longer have to continue.
00:41:00:10 – 00:41:28:04
Speaker 1
And that’s not really the case with for for profit organizations. And he was mentioning that in nonprofits that there’s more ability for, leaders to become corrupt, and that there’s a lot more corruption, in nonprofit sectors and things like that. And I was wondering, like, has that been true for you in what you’ve seen?
00:41:28:04 – 00:41:37:17
Speaker 1
Maybe not necessarily in your organizations, but just in nonprofits in general? Or. Yeah. I wonder if that’s been the true for you.
00:41:37:17 – 00:42:07:09
Speaker 2
I don’t yeah, I don’t I haven’t seen that. I mean, I don’t that might be true, but that has not been my experience. I think there’s like sometimes a lack of expertise on the financial side because on the business of you know, like a for profit business, there’s it seems like people are coming up through that space with more skills in that area.
00:42:07:11 – 00:42:32:12
Speaker 2
And whereas nonprofit, like, for example, in education, you have a lot of teachers who are then managing, you know, like a school, for example. And so of course, there’s other folks who have like a financial background. But in general, I just think the skill set that I’ve seen, like coming up in nonprofit, it’s people from, you know, they’re not necessarily on the business side of it.
00:42:32:14 – 00:42:56:10
Speaker 2
They’re, you know, in the industry of whatever that is. Like, you know, I worked at the film festival, so. Right, it was folks who were like, really involved in the movie business, the movie side, the creator side. And so, you know, managing kind of the the business side of the nonprofit was not as much of a focus.
00:42:56:10 – 00:43:16:00
Speaker 2
And so I could see how that might be construed as corrupt. But I would argue that perhaps it’s more of just a different area of skills or different focus. And it allows for like, you know, probably some messiness. Yeah. In that I.
00:43:16:01 – 00:43:52:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I think I know what you mean. I wonder when we look at sort of, you know, your journey through education and then through your careers, I wonder, what do you think was the most challenging, struggle for you career wise, or academically that, that you had to really grapple with? Like, what are some struggles and challenges that you had faced?
00:43:52:13 – 00:44:20:00
Speaker 2
I mean, the biggest one was like, honestly, juggling parenting and career. Yeah, that because I don’t feel like I fully grasped what that would entail. Like, I definitely did not. No one explained that to me at Wharton. Like at all. Yeah. And it was like, oh, you’re just going to like go do all the things. And it was like, well, that’s not really how it works.
00:44:20:00 – 00:44:46:02
Speaker 2
You can’t really do all the things at the same time. It doesn’t happen like that. And so kind of like understanding what pieces need to be put in place, like what structures. I feel like it was like shocking to me how difficult all of that was, because there’s not like, you know, paid leave and like some sort of child care situation.
00:44:46:02 – 00:45:09:00
Speaker 2
It was like everything had to be figured out by myself. Like, I felt like I was figuring all this stuff out without any sort of roadmap and like, a lack of awareness before being a parent, that this is what would need to happen for some reason. I don’t know why, but I didn’t really understand, like I didn’t. And so just being like, oh, I am exhausted.
00:45:09:02 – 00:45:45:06
Speaker 2
I can’t like work at the level that I worked at before and still be a parent and deal with like all the other things, like a house and, you know, like a relationship, but like just all of that together. I felt like it took a while to kind of, level set. And I don’t think that I was ever like, as a parent able to, you know, pursue my career with the same level of intensity that I had prior to becoming a parent.
00:45:45:08 – 00:45:46:10
Speaker 3
00:45:46:12 – 00:46:09:13
Speaker 2
And sort of letting that go, like understanding that kind of like coming to terms and being at peace with that, because I really did want, you know, to have, like, such a close relationship with my kids and that just takes a lot of time. You have to be there, you have to be around. And it’s like, I call it my potted plant parenting style, where like, I’m there.
00:46:09:18 – 00:46:50:13
Speaker 2
I don’t always have to be like, active, but, you know, being around so that they kind of come to me with things. And so if you’re not available, that doesn’t happen. And so kind of understanding like the give and take of like being a parent and also wanting to have a really robust career and having to wedge my job in and like make trade offs that were hard and recognizing that like, yes, I’ve done a lot of cool things in my career, but I also felt like, there are things I didn’t achieve that I wanted to, but I couldn’t make it all work at the same time.
00:46:50:15 – 00:46:51:10
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh.
00:46:51:10 – 00:47:32:22
Speaker 2
And that was probably the biggest struggle. Like, really. And it’s only like it’s interesting because that took, you know, I have two kids. The youngest just left for college this past year, and it’s like the first time where I’m like, oh, I have some brain space where I can think about what it looks like to, pursue some interests and get into like a career path that, you know, I had to really curtail willingly, but also at times, like a little unwillingly, because I’m like, oh, I wanted to do something different, but that would have required a different trade off that I might not have wanted to make.
00:47:33:00 – 00:47:37:07
Speaker 2
And yeah, so that was a big, big challenge.
00:47:37:09 – 00:48:09:01
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh, when you talk about this, I just think about like how when I look at society and how it’s built for women, right. It’s and families and parenting, it just it just still feels like we’re in the startup stages of, like, trying to create a system that integrates parenting with work. And I just think, you know, it’s so terribly inefficient.
00:48:09:03 – 00:48:33:23
Speaker 1
And I just, I remember, like, when I became a mom, I mean, you know, my background is kind of in film producing and, you know, I and also an education, like my hours and minutes were always scheduled down to the minute. And so I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me that having a child would completely change my schedule.
00:48:33:23 – 00:48:42:05
Speaker 1
I didn’t realize I would have zero minutes by myself, you know?
00:48:42:06 – 00:48:49:19
Speaker 2
Right? Yes, right. No one explains. It’s like, I don’t know why it was such a shock. Like.
00:48:49:21 – 00:48:50:22
Speaker 1
Right.
00:48:51:00 – 00:49:18:21
Speaker 2
I was like, I didn’t grasp what the day to day was going to look like at all. And it was like, wait a minute, how am I supposed to do all these things? And, you know, and, no, there seems like I think there’s more communication now, certainly, than like when, you know, 20 years ago. But still, I don’t feel like we’ve, like, evolved that much.
00:49:18:21 – 00:49:51:06
Speaker 2
There’s not like some like way, you know, and a lot of it does fall on the mom. And when you take that time to do all of those other things like the, the unpaid and unseen labor of like doctor’s appointment and lunch, packing and whatever, buying all the clothes, you know, like school clothes, whatever the things are, there’s just like a million tasks that are involved in that.
00:49:51:08 – 00:50:10:14
Speaker 2
It takes up brain space that is no longer available to think about, like work, you know, higher level thinking. It’s just like you’re constantly wedging everything in is basically how I felt about it for like 20 years, which is fine. Like, you can find the time, you can find the joy. And it’s not like this state of misery.
00:50:10:14 – 00:50:36:14
Speaker 2
Like I feel very happy about my, you know, parenting. And I’ve had lots of great job opportunities. But I also look at, you know, it’s pretty interesting. I went to my 25th reunion for Wharton last spring, and I a lot of there were 60 women who gathered, about a couple of months after we decided we had so much fun meeting at our larger reunion.
00:50:36:14 – 00:51:02:08
Speaker 2
We had 800 people in the class. I think 300 something came back for the 25th reunion, and then we had 60 women gather over the summer to talk about, you know, just to get together. And what I saw was really interesting in that some a lot of the women who had reached sort of the pinnacle of like, career success did not have children.
00:51:02:10 – 00:51:31:12
Speaker 2
And I was like, right, because it’s very hard. And you have to have a different structure. You have to have a spouse or a partner or like something somebody has got to pick up the slack. And, you know, we’re like confused. Well, how do men do this? Well, they have like typically there’s somebody at home who’s dealing with all the other stuff so that they can focus solely on achieving in their career.
00:51:31:12 – 00:51:53:17
Speaker 2
Right. And so I’m not saying that’s better or I personally would have chosen that, but there’s a calculation involved. And it’s like you have to have a certain amount of hours dedicated to something, and then that’s going to preclude you from, you know, doing some of those other tasks, parenting and all the unseen labor that goes along with that.
00:51:53:19 – 00:52:27:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I think I just read something, from yeah, I don’t know where I read this, but I was scrolling something and they said that the two happiest groups, in, you know, society at they think this was, a survey or a study done in the states, are married men and single, childless women.
00:52:27:23 – 00:53:02:17
Speaker 2
Yes. That’s interesting. Right. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. That makes sense to me. Right. I mean I would never like I said I would never give it up. But I certainly, it certainly has made me like think. And I also feel like it would behoove like women to have these conversations, like real honest conversations about what the division of labor is going to look like before having children.
00:53:02:19 – 00:53:33:22
Speaker 1
100% agree. And that’s what I’ve been telling my friends who don’t have children yet or who aren’t married yet like you are in for a reality check. Oh, there’s just so much involved. So thank you for sharing about, that challenge. It’s so relatable. And I know, like, you were just talking about this, reunion that you, attended with, Wharton reunion last spring.
00:53:34:00 – 00:53:46:03
Speaker 1
I know that you are doing some amazing new things. You have some new projects ahead. And I’m wondering if you wanted to share a little bit about what that next chapter is going to look like for you?
00:53:46:05 – 00:54:12:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. So after my 25th reunion, a group of, classmates from our grade, got together to form an AI collective of sorts because we were really interested in the business applications of AI and thought that, you know, we should maybe just meet once a week or so and, like, talk about that and, like, do some research and kind of learn from one another.
00:54:12:23 – 00:54:46:07
Speaker 2
And we did that over the course of the fall. And by the end of 2023, we were like, you know what? I think we should start a company because there’s so much opportunity. No one really knows what’s going to happen in this space. Why not just go for it? And so we did, and, we started a company called Next Access, and there’s a dozen of us from the Wharton class of 1998 who are all partners in this venture together.
00:54:46:09 – 00:55:27:04
Speaker 2
And so that’s been really fun and exciting and kind of dovetails with like, some of the other points that we’ve talked about in that I wouldn’t have been able to have the space to, like, learn all of this, to kind of explore, to take a risk and start something. If my, you know, if I wasn’t, if I was still like in the throes of, like, hands on parenting, I think I is able to do this because, you know, my youngest went to college and I had some space to really kind of figure some things out and to like, look out and, you know, kind of spend time learning something new.
00:55:27:06 – 00:55:52:10
Speaker 2
For the first time in like 20 years, I really had more time. And that’s kind of the takeaway was like, okay, you know, that same feeling that I had when I joined the startup, back in, you know, early 2000 is that same feeling now. And at both points in my life, I was not in charge of children.
00:55:52:12 – 00:55:55:12
Speaker 2
And so there is a parallel there, you know.
00:55:55:14 – 00:56:29:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, know for sure. And, you know, I have this question. I or I had a different question, but I’m, I want to wrap it up in this thing that you just shared, about this company that you started with, you know, dozen other, alumni. And I wonder if you were to hire people straight out of school, to work at this company, but you are starting with your colleagues.
00:56:29:21 – 00:56:39:08
Speaker 1
What skills would you want them to have and what would you want them to be able to do?
00:56:39:10 – 00:56:42:11
Speaker 3
00:56:42:13 – 00:57:23:13
Speaker 2
I think it should be. Self-directed to be able to take charge. You know, in a startup people are really busy and don’t have a lot of time for training and oversight. And like tons of management, it’s not structured like that. So I think demonstrating the ability to kind of hit the ground running and like come in and like make an impact right away with whatever that looks like and being able to articulate that clearly, having a curiosity about new technology and, you know, it’s demonstrating that they’ve taken time to kind of learn some of those tools and platforms and how can they use that?
00:57:23:13 – 00:57:36:03
Speaker 2
It’s sort of, you know, being self-directed, I think is really important in a startup environment because the no one’s got time to really.
00:57:36:05 – 00:57:37:12
Speaker 3
00:57:37:14 – 00:58:02:14
Speaker 2
Do lots of like, structured oversight. And so to be successful coming out of school, like that’s probably one of the more important things, being a good communicator, being able to explain what it is that you’ve accomplished, what you’re working on, you know, where you need help, like being able to, you know, feel comfortable and confident, you know, in those kinds of conversations is really important.
00:58:02:14 – 00:58:18:23
Speaker 2
And eventually that would mean, you know, being able to do some kind of business development or sales, like everybody’s got to do that in a startup, too. So you’re always like kind of looking for new business. So those kinds of skills like those communication and outreach skills are really important.
00:58:19:01 – 00:58:34:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. And what if you were to look at their resume or their curriculum vitae? What are some things that you would be looking for?
00:58:34:17 – 00:58:38:06
Speaker 3
00:58:38:08 – 00:58:46:07
Speaker 2
That’s a good question.
00:58:46:09 – 00:59:08:14
Speaker 2
Have they started something like were they in a leadership role? Did they create something from scratch, you know, over the course of their whatever high school, college career? Like, are they entrepreneurial? You know, I think demonstrating that interest goes a long way.
00:59:08:16 – 00:59:12:18
Speaker 3
00:59:12:20 – 00:59:42:10
Speaker 2
I guess, you know, I want to say he always looks at like, GPA. I don’t, I don’t know, I, I think that’s one predictor, but that’s also like, you can really if you’ve if you’ve really challenged yourself, have you been curious, have you taken coursework that was difficult and you had to, like push yourself and learn learning things that are new and hard, like that’s really important.
00:59:42:10 – 01:00:06:18
Speaker 2
So I would personally rather see someone who’s maybe doesn’t have the, you know, the 4.0 GPA, but like really took on something that was difficult and engaged with that. You know, to me that’s like that’s a really positive sign. So I think finding, you know, folks who have who’ve challenged themselves and gone outside their comfort zone.
01:00:06:20 – 01:00:37:12
Speaker 1
That’s awesome. And I wanted to, end on this question, which is when you look and hope for you, when you look at what your children are studying and what they’re pursuing, are there certain industries that you don’t want them to go into, or are there some industries that you do want them to go into?
01:00:37:14 – 01:01:13:21
Speaker 2
It’s funny. I want them to feel fulfilled and be able to be self-sustaining adults. So, like, whatever that looks like. I would hope that they wouldn’t choose to be in an industry that causes harm. You know, I mean, there’s definitely I would not want them working for like, I don’t know, there’s industries that cause harm to the environment or who are like, you know, crushing small businesses or like whatever it is, I would hope that they would choose something that is additive to the world and is not causing harm.
01:01:14:00 – 01:01:17:20
Speaker 2
Whatever that looks like.
01:01:17:22 – 01:01:46:04
Speaker 1
Awesome. And if you sorry I did lie. This is my ultimate last question. If there’s anything you want to share with, my audience, which, you know, they’re kind of like homeschoolers or alternative schoolers, schoolers. They’re, micro school starters and founders, their students and parents. And is there any words of wisdom you would like to share with them?
01:01:46:04 – 01:01:55:07
Speaker 1
As you know, they prepare children for the world and beyond.
01:01:55:09 – 01:02:30:02
Speaker 2
I guess being a lifelong reader will always serve them well, you know, and yeah, I, I feel like if that’s that more than anything, I think has, helped me in all facets of my life, you know, in terms of my career, personal satisfaction, I’m. So I can be anywhere with a book and be content, you know, it’s like there’s something about reading, like when you are a reader.
01:02:30:02 – 01:02:45:03
Speaker 2
It really I think, it’s with you forever. So fostering a love of reading is one thing I would say. I hope that every child, every student can have that.
01:02:45:05 – 01:02:54:02
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.