Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Dr. Charli Kemp, an educator and social impact-maker, about her high school memories of selling candy, evading tardy sweeps by hanging out in the counselor’s office, and negotiating her grades with her teachers…before becoming an educator herself. We talk about her nonlinear journey of discovering her place in education including stops at USC to earn her MBA, and Harvard to earn her doctorate in education leadership. We also discuss her philosophy on academic and economic success, and why connection and collaboration are the ultimate keys to it.
Here is our edited conversation
Auto-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:02 – 00:00:27:16
Speaker 1
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:27:18 – 00:00:49:05
Speaker 1
I design curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:49:07 – 00:01:24:21
Speaker 1
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers, with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Doctor Charlie Kemp, an educator and social impact maker, about her high school memories of selling candy, evading tardy sweets by hanging out in the counselor’s office and negotiating her grades with her teachers before ultimately becoming an educator herself.
00:01:24:23 – 00:01:53:09
Speaker 1
We talk about her nonlinear journey of discovering her place in education, including stops at USC to earn her MBA and Harvard to earn her doctorate in education leadership. We also discuss her philosophy on academic and economic success, and why connection and collaboration are the ultimate keys to it. Here is our edited conversation with.
00:01:53:11 – 00:02:09:20
Speaker 2
What kind of child was I? I don’t know if you remember me from high school, but I was an advocate child like books child who was like asking the teacher, could we push the test back a day or two or. And I can remember that from little or saying in high school, could it be a take home test?
00:02:09:20 – 00:02:28:08
Speaker 2
Because I understood what meant what it meant for take home test. I also was biggest teacher in high school. Fun fact was not even doing anything. Yeah, I just never went to class. It was kind of like I would I would go and then I go to the bathroom and then go hang out. I use it. It’s a true joke.
00:02:28:09 – 00:02:57:09
Speaker 2
I would be in the counselor’s office while they were doing a tardy sleep. Like downloading music on Napster. So that’s the kind of high schooler. But even I always made good friends in the offices, which is funny now that I’m in the education space and have done like I liked the people in education a lot. I think as a child, my parents, my father was very big on you could do anything you put your mind to.
00:02:57:11 – 00:03:21:18
Speaker 2
And my mom was like, the world. People are crazy. And so I think it kind of created this dynamic where I could do what I want, if I, like, figure out how to navigate the crazy ish, And I was always told I was smart and brilliant everywhere I went, like I did well in school, and I never liked school.
00:03:21:18 – 00:03:43:19
Speaker 2
It wasn’t until I got to Harvard that I actually could be like, this is best. Because I think there were times in school where, like, I don’t know if it was. There were moments of imposter syndrome going. Not I wouldn’t say through like K through 12, but like as I got to college and high school, I mean business school, that happened.
00:03:43:19 – 00:04:14:13
Speaker 2
But I will just say, like the education system is like a cog in a wheel. Like they just want like they say here, one, two, three. Okay, now you do one, two, three, four, five, six. Now you do four, five, six. And I was like, that’s not. No. Why? Why was the kind of kid I was like. And so when I, I think one about the time I got to the doctoral program, I realized I can do one, two, three, but I can add like chocolate cake and Kendrick Lamar and Drake’s beef all in this.
00:04:14:13 – 00:04:30:03
Speaker 2
As long as I check their boxes, I can still get as creative as I want. And that, like, I mean, I still get irked that I have to check the boxes, but like when you understand how to work the system, make it better, but most people don’t make it that far. They just are like, I don’t want to do this anymore.
00:04:30:05 – 00:04:58:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. So that’s so funny that you bring up those memories from high school. Because you’re right. Like the memories that I have a view from high school is that you were so studious. You were a serious student. At least from the outside, it looked like, you know, you were really all there, and, you were excelling. Maybe more than many of our peers.
00:04:58:20 – 00:05:28:14
Speaker 1
And so when you say, yeah, you know, I was taking the counselor’s office, downloading music. I was like, during a tardy sweep. I was like, that’s really interesting. I’m like, how did you get away with that? You figured out the system, like, way before you know? And so that’s kind of amazing. I’m kind of curious about, like, the messaging you receive from your caregivers or, about, like, your expectations.
00:05:28:14 – 00:05:45:18
Speaker 1
Like what kinds of what kind of expectations did they have of you, in life? And, kind of going back to maybe, like your father’s messaging about, you know, you can achieve anything. Were there any things that they wanted you to achieve?
00:05:45:20 – 00:06:07:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, like, my mom really hated her job. She worked for Pacific Bell. My father was kind of an entrepreneur. He was an entrepreneur. And my mom also in, like, hating her job, she was like, you need be a lawyer. And you need to be your own boss. So that was a big messaging from her.
00:06:07:12 – 00:06:25:15
Speaker 2
And I think for me, in being my own boss, it was so that, like, it’s funny, I’m, like, processing this in such a moment right now, but so that, like, people couldn’t control you because systems were unfair, which is really her thing. Like, my dad’s like, you can do that was really not that people are crazy. I should clarify that.
00:06:25:17 – 00:06:47:01
Speaker 2
Life’s not fair. Was her her, her messaging to me. And being a black woman in America, it it like she probably didn’t have the words that I can articulate it in this way. And so there was a great expectation to be able to go to school and get a job that was my own, that I was leading my own work and making my own money.
00:06:47:01 – 00:07:06:10
Speaker 2
She also struggled financially. I don’t think my dad was the most well-off. He did a little bit better. They divorced when I was two and a half, so there was also kind of just different pathways in my, I think it’s also what I was like seeing my dad or my aunt who was a lawyer, had like the nicest house in, in, in our family.
00:07:06:10 – 00:07:29:04
Speaker 2
Or she drove, a Mercedes, like for a long time. I wanted a Mercedes. And so you then you equate like I think there’s a big messaging is if you do well in school, then you will make more money and then you will be successful. That’s like the, like the, the, story that told us. I will say it’s funny you said I was so studious.
00:07:29:04 – 00:07:57:16
Speaker 2
I think both of my parents and maybe generationally, we we are we communicate very well. I think, I have a report card that I’ve used in PD with, like, full of seasoned DS. And that wasn’t always the norm. They had the expectation that I was getting A’s and B’s, and I got yelled at for like, getting C’s and D’s, and I never felt good when I wasn’t getting good grades.
00:07:57:18 – 00:08:17:23
Speaker 2
I probably finished like A314. I think that was my high school GPA game, but something like it was, I cleared the three. But I also remember I had a clueless moment where I was negotiating with a teacher to take my D to a C in my senior year. So, and because my family when I got home would be in a whole lot of trouble, like.
00:08:18:01 – 00:08:25:00
Speaker 2
And that would just be like, grounding or not. Feels like that would just be like. But it would have been the end of the world at the time.
00:08:25:02 – 00:09:03:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, that’s so funny. I just can’t believe you’re, like, blowing my mind. Because, like, what you’re saying is so different from my own memory. And so. Yeah, I’m kind of curious, like, what kind of classes you enjoyed or, like, what topics you enjoyed? Like in school, maybe. I guess in the latter years in high school or, like when you started to form an idea of, like, where in society you sort of belong or fit, if that makes sense.
00:09:03:04 – 00:09:24:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oof! What did I enjoy in school? I enjoy art, I remember distinctly enjoying art. I used to do better in math, but there was one math teacher at Lisa’s that told the whole class that we were not too smart, so we weren’t going to do proofs in geometry.
00:09:24:23 – 00:09:27:02
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh.
00:09:27:04 – 00:09:48:00
Speaker 2
It’s like, what? Who are you? You know, people. This was like the big Smalls moment when my teacher told me I could make it like. And Lisa’s is a really good school, so I’m like, what’s happening here? But I did use there were moments pocket. I like math because math is concrete. I never liked English. I struggled with English in writing.
00:09:48:02 – 00:10:11:23
Speaker 2
Although at least we had a really good English teacher that got me to understand the formula. And I started to communicate better in writing, but never been my jam. I don’t I’m trying to remember what I took is is kind of a blur. I just remember art liking art a lot. Yeah. I was into the clubs junior.
00:10:12:01 – 00:10:39:21
Speaker 2
I was really big in junior achievement, in speaking. And I think that was the other piece, like, again, as I’m. I can talk ten times better than I can write, I see. And so I think when we think about learning now in the work that I do now, it’s the, there’s concept universal design for learning and like thinking about ways in which we can demonstrate our attitude, the evidence of us mastering, knowledge, mastery of knowledge in like so.
00:10:39:21 – 00:11:15:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And I’m wondering about that communication piece because you said that, you know, like your parents, you, you’re very good communicator and you were able to communicate and negotiate, all of those things. And I think I always say like, culturally, I think in Korean household or maybe, Asian households in general, like children are, are meant to be compliant and obedient, and we’re never supposed to talk back and, you know, not challenge authority.
00:11:15:10 – 00:11:44:15
Speaker 1
And so that’s something that I carried with me, I guess, even till today. In many ways, but I know that that’s not really the American way. Right. I think communication, being able to negotiate like that. Clueless. Right. Like in clueless like that, I felt like was the norm to be able to speak with your teachers in a way that, felt less power distancing.
00:11:44:17 – 00:12:12:05
Speaker 1
And, you know, I always was envious of people who could maintain, like, more even power distance with, adults, especially in school. And so you talk about that communication ability and then you not liking English. And I’m curious, like, you know, you went on to go to business school. You are, you did your doctorate at Harvard in education.
00:12:12:07 – 00:12:29:22
Speaker 1
And so I’m kind of curious, like how you found your path. In, in pursuing higher education, you know, from maybe not enjoying it as much, maybe in, in school.
00:12:30:00 – 00:12:51:05
Speaker 2
Like a couple of things. So it’s interesting you mentioned the culture of Korea. I would say the culture of a lot of African American families is, I feel, and I won’t even just limited to that. I think there is a compliance culture too. Yeah. Especially knowing like how black people, black children can be treated. I don’t think I was the norm.
00:12:51:05 – 00:13:09:10
Speaker 2
I mean, I was the norm, but I wasn’t the norm. Like, I think I pushed the boundaries a little bit more, and I think that the whole not fair. So I don’t know if you get into astrology, but I’m a Libra and like part of like my whole astrology is like you’re a Libra too. Yeah. And like fairness is a thing for us.
00:13:09:10 – 00:13:36:03
Speaker 2
And so I think the test, the advocacy was for me like, no, we got to make this fair. I I’m gonna do it respectfully, please. Ainsley. That my mom was a disciplinarian, for sure. My dad was, not as much, but, like, I mean, they were firm and there was still the expectation that you did. You met the rules.
00:13:36:05 – 00:13:55:21
Speaker 2
Although his big sister, I was in fear the entire time that I would get caught. But now that that would have been devastating in probably my I don’t know, I would be on this call today. So, Yeah, I think that a lot of times and I think part of what’s wrong in this world is that we live in a fear based world.
00:13:55:23 – 00:14:23:20
Speaker 2
Yes. And we do things because the alternative is we’re afraid of the consequence that may or may not actually be the real consequence. I think one of the things I’m working on is, is my own fears. And I think that just I don’t want to say it’s completely fear based. But I will say to answer your question, getting to how did I go on this higher ed journey?
00:14:23:22 – 00:14:29:08
Speaker 2
So when I left college because, well, college was like, that’s what you do.
00:14:29:10 – 00:14:31:09
Speaker 1
Oh, wait, what did you study?
00:14:31:11 – 00:14:46:22
Speaker 2
I was a double major. So my original plan. And in high school I’ve done a lot of programs, and I learned programs help because programs help you to, like Reardon Scholars, was a program that helped me to understand business. I thought I was going to be a lawyer at first, and then I was like, I want to JD, MBA.
00:14:46:22 – 00:15:06:02
Speaker 2
And so when I got to college, that’s a whole long story. But I was the short version. I was an economics political science double major, and the plan was to go to law school to get the JD, MBA coming out of college. I didn’t get into law school. My grades again were not the greatest. I did work my last year.
00:15:06:02 – 00:15:29:11
Speaker 2
I worked like three jobs, and I was working the entire time and just again, I’m not the student who’s going to sit and get an A. I might be, as I already or speak. You might think I’m going to get an A and actually at Harvard at a lot of A’s, but that’s because it’s a different system. But other to say like typically I don’t like I get A’s, but not like if I have to do a lot of work for it, like writing and stuff.
00:15:29:11 – 00:15:52:09
Speaker 2
If it’s not a creative project, probably not gonna happen. And so coming out of Spelman, I didn’t have like a high GPA, like in the 3/8, three four is over three five. And, I was never I wasn’t I’ve gotten a lot better, but I wasn’t a fast reader, so I read really slow. So what? I went to take the LSATs.
00:15:52:09 – 00:16:15:04
Speaker 2
Those scores weren’t good. So long story short, I didn’t get into it. I only applied again, not like into doing all this work. I applied to like 3 or 4 schools. They were amazing schools and I didn’t get in. So I took the year off to study for the LSATs and prepare and do the work. And when I did that, my roommate at the time was like, you should apply to teach for America.
00:16:15:06 – 00:16:34:05
Speaker 2
Oh, and I had seen the teach for America application in my senior year, and I was like, this is as hard as a law school application. I’m not doing that too. But now I’ve not gotten into law school, so let me have a backup plan this time. And I like telling this story because this is the thing about school where.
00:16:34:07 – 00:16:59:04
Speaker 2
So I came home to Ellen, you for a law school panel in that year, off to CVS for minorities. And there was a party. She was Asian woman who had been the valedictorian of her USC class, sitting on the panel, who starts to tear up talking about how hard law school is. It’s not what you do. And like if, you know, if you want people to come there gracefully.
00:16:59:06 – 00:17:24:07
Speaker 2
I didn’t consciously process this, but the short version of this story is I was at same time doing law school, trying to get in TFA. I had my interview for TFA the day before. I actually got an acceptance into Howard Law School, and I got it. And like when I did the interview for TFA, I was decided in that moment, like, I’m gonna be a part of this movement and change the education space in really good marketing.
00:17:24:09 – 00:17:51:21
Speaker 2
And they had you, like, watch all these videos, like to serve with love and dangerous minds and and it’s problematic. Now I realize it’s like a whole savior complex. Let me come in and save the things. But I also thought that I worked through college as a, camp counselor, and I like kids, and I’ve always enjoyed, like, though I wasn’t a, like, straight-A student, I enjoyed school, I enjoyed the space, I enjoyed relationships.
00:17:51:21 – 00:18:14:12
Speaker 2
So I decided to do teach for America over law school. But going back to fear, I think I was really scared. Like, I was like, oh, I’ll just go teach for a few years, then I’ll get ready. And so that took me to teaching, which then was my first master’s in teaching. When you do the program, you can get a master’s in teaching with Pace University.
00:18:14:13 – 00:18:35:21
Speaker 2
I call that the play Play Masters because it was there was no rigor there. Like you just had to write about how you felt in what you were doing in your classroom. It wasn’t like, I don’t even think I it was not hard. So that was the first master’s. Then while I was teaching, I was realizing as a math teacher, like I used entrepreneurship and money with kids.
00:18:36:02 – 00:18:57:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I again, the original plan was a JD, ba. So I was like, maybe I don’t want to do law school because that’s a whole lot of reading and writing. That wasn’t my jam. I also had a bad experience in college with a law class, and then I also spent some time the year I took off, shadowing a judge and just doing a couple things that got me more acquainted with the legal field, and I think those were turned off.
00:18:57:12 – 00:19:06:15
Speaker 2
So I think in the back of my mind, like, do I really want to do this? But doing business with kids and money with kids, I don’t know. If you recall, I sold candy in high school too. I do.
00:19:06:15 – 00:19:07:03
Speaker 1
Remember.
00:19:07:03 – 00:19:28:22
Speaker 2
That and never got caught either. I’m very proud of that. And so I’ve always been enterprising and entrepreneurial. And so I was like, business school, that’s where I need to go is to learn how to make money, because rewind the other piece, the long term goal for me when I was in high school and did Reardon Scholars, I learned about like venture capitalists.
00:19:29:00 – 00:19:53:10
Speaker 2
And before it was so popular, I wanted to be a venture philanthropist. That was like, wow, oh my. In my I think I would talk about that in. So other to say I went back to after teaching for five years in New York City, and the whole time I was there, like I was realizing, okay, I want to go to business school, because our kids start at the school store and we would take the profits, and we took them to Alvin Ailey.
00:19:53:10 – 00:20:11:18
Speaker 2
We took them out to dinner, we bought fans for the classroom, and I was like, if you could. I also walked around being like, I just want to do after school because that’s where we could what what would the world look like if we could teach families and kids to create their own businesses? That could be transformational for the world.
00:20:11:18 – 00:20:37:01
Speaker 2
So we were doing cooking in the classroom, and I had a parent come in once and she was like, one of our dishes was like a big fruit salad. And she was like, you got me buying all these fruits. I don’t normally buy fruits. And I’m like, okay, like, in East Harlem. And so, you know, thinking about the ways in which I could use entrepreneurship and creating a business to be or teaching others to create businesses simultaneously that were successful.
00:20:37:07 – 00:21:05:18
Speaker 2
That’s what took me to business school. And then, I’m almost done with this. But in business school, I tell people it teaches you all the reasons not to start your own business. If you’re risk averse and don’t come from money, because you’re studying, like, how do businesses fail? These are the case studies. So what’s wrong? And so I came up with the concept for my organization, changed it to tune in business school, which was originally like malicious and deals or saved by the Bell.
00:21:05:18 – 00:21:23:06
Speaker 2
The Max. And I was thinking it would just be this dope space where kids could do cool things and adults could go after hours and kind of be like a house who’s, but business school teaches you all the reasons and restaurants fail. And like, brick and mortars are hard. So fast forward when I graduated, I needed a job.
00:21:23:06 – 00:21:41:10
Speaker 2
I didn’t have any capital raised and I was like, what am I going to do? And the one of the things, just to answer your question, in short, school is very linear, which makes life if you’re risk averse or fearful, it’s like, oh, I just go to school. Like, yes, you take a class, you do the assignments, and in the moment the assignments feel hard.
00:21:41:10 – 00:22:04:18
Speaker 2
How am I going to do this? But honestly, it’s super linear in career and life is not like if I want to be a venture philanthropist, I’ve got a long journey to get there. And so each piece of school has been like a way to like reground relearn and figure out how to pivot. And so, while working at green Dot, I started changed the tune Entrepreneurially.
00:22:04:18 – 00:22:32:17
Speaker 2
And then I actually got the 501 C3, started doing events, started the afterschool program. And I also realized that doing that like it was like I say, the education, I don’t know, we read this book in high school. I don’t know if you actually read it, but Animal Farm, the education system. No, you didn’t read it. It’s I think it’s like one of the few books I actually read and like, it’s a really powerful book because our world is animal Farm, everyone says, which is basically we replicate ourselves.
00:22:32:17 – 00:22:51:03
Speaker 2
It’s like the Republicans say that you’re going to be different than Democrats, but they’re really the same right now. Like, I’m going to vote for Biden because I have to. But like, it’s it’s it’s it’s looking pretty like. And so the point that I’m making though is that is Animal Farm and like charters say, they’re going to be different than district schools and they’re not.
00:22:51:05 – 00:23:17:11
Speaker 2
They have the same constraints, the same evidence collection systems, the same metrics. So then you have to create the same things, which is what led me to Harvard, because the program that I did was studying system. So systems level leadership. It’s an education doctorate. And in leadership in like it’s all about understanding the systems which inherently what we what I knew.
00:23:17:11 – 00:23:43:09
Speaker 2
But what I got better language for is the racism oppressive structures that we build that were only meant for a few to be successful. Right. But then it also allowed me to get creative and understand, like, if I don’t want to replicate the systems, how do I make internal looks at self and also external looks at others to collectively work together to like design new things?
00:23:43:10 – 00:23:55:01
Speaker 2
So that’s been why. But then I learned about ethnomusicology, and I am going to go back for another PhD one day. Not any time soon. I have to make some money. My family says that.
00:23:55:03 – 00:24:25:10
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh. Well, that’s a really amazing journey. And I actually know an ethnomusicologist. Or right now, so I so funny that you mention that, but I think your journey is really incredible. And there’s a lot there that you learned, I guess, by kind of letting the universe take you to the next steps.
00:24:25:12 – 00:24:53:19
Speaker 1
And I love that you talk about, like, the concept of school being very linear, and life not being very linear. And, so you’re right, like, every time I felt scared and like about the future, I would just go back to school because it’s like it’s a sandbox, you know, and they help you, sort of guide you and give you, they scaffold the next steps for you.
00:24:53:21 – 00:25:26:06
Speaker 1
And so I just think that, yeah, like what you’re saying is really resonating with me and also a very relatable, and so I’m wondering like, the changes that you are making regarding like how, you know, student assessment and things like that. I know, Change the Tune is an afterschool program. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the program and what it does and who it serves and where in the world you’re all based.
00:25:26:08 – 00:25:50:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. I would say we do three things. One is we run afterschool and summer programs and we have our our afterschool program is based in L.A. Our summer programs this past year, in the last 3 to 4 years, we’ve done this will be our eighth year in LA, working on things across our fifth year in the Bahamas.
00:25:50:21 – 00:26:22:09
Speaker 2
And, we are pausing in Chicago, but we ran for three years in Chicago. That’s for summer camps. We also do professional development and capacity building. We’ve done that all over the country from New York, Georgia, Boston, where else if we are Somerville, Massachusetts as say, Los Angeles, Oakland, Franklin, Hayward, San Diego.
00:26:22:09 – 00:26:46:22
Speaker 2
So do that work in a lot of different places? Today plug well needs will not be viewed by like, to later. I’m speaking for the Department of Ed. They’re hosting a webinar today. In our capacity building is really about building liberation or learning spaces, which is what our afterschool and summer programs represent. So what does that mean for me?
00:26:46:22 – 00:27:09:11
Speaker 2
Our end goal, and we’re not all the way there, but like, what does it look like for kids to organize their learning completely? So kids, we do food justice. Kids make great. They’ve built gardens. They have, cook, they cook and intentionally healthy food. They do mindfulness, they do yoga, they do movement. We create social justice business plan.
00:27:09:11 – 00:27:29:16
Speaker 2
So we introduce them to the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. And we ask them what would they like to create? We’ve built online stores. They do music, they do art. I mean, we try. The goal is like exposure and opportunity and then allowing them to choose. And then there are social emotional learning components around, like we’re running a Saturday program right now.
00:27:29:16 – 00:28:08:16
Speaker 2
And one of our big topics we’ve been asked to like, work on with our kids and something that’s always a thing is conflict resolution. Like, how do we work in in get along with each other, which our world needs a lot of right now? And really, it’s about building the future leaders. So the way I like to characterize it, in short, if we were to build the next or create a program that catalyze individuals who would be as powerful as, like Angela Davis or Cesar Chavez, that’s the seeds I want to plant with our students so that then one day they will produce fruits in ripples where we will have a better world.
00:28:08:18 – 00:28:28:22
Speaker 2
And so that’s like what it means to change the tune. And we do that with the programing and then teaching others this is what we’re doing in our programing. What would you like to do in your programing? What are your kids say? How are you using your kids voices? How can they you do things differently. And we do that with school day teachers and afterschool and summer teachers.
00:28:28:22 – 00:28:54:11
Speaker 2
So those are like, it’s like trying to get at the system in both ways. And then we haven’t fully gotten there. But the goal is to like monetize some of the work we do in the garden. Like can we sell our produce? Kids design, we call them the in the Social Justice Business Plans t shirts. Last summer, the kids brought in about $1,000 in like $800 in profit that they were able to use in like a week and a half.
00:28:54:12 – 00:29:16:22
Speaker 2
And so what does it look like to create a revenue generation source that can fund the movement of what it looks like to do things differently and not be consumed with capitalism and only making money, but also not beholden to, unfortunately, not all philanthropy, but much of philanthropy. One of the reasons education stays in the check is it’s the way the dollars flow.
00:29:17:00 – 00:29:36:23
Speaker 2
We hold you accountable by like, how well did you do on this test score? And I’m like, the test doesn’t tell me anything about my life. I didn’t do well on the GMAT, but here I am like, oh, like I graduated from Harvard with a very high GPA. Like so that and and no one takes test in their work.
00:29:36:23 – 00:29:52:15
Speaker 2
Very few careers in this world. Once you’ve passed the initial test, like that’s not what we do. And the biggest challenge we have in this world is we don’t know how to work with each other collectively to push things forward.
00:29:52:17 – 00:30:31:10
Speaker 1
1000 million percent. And I think, like in the first season of this podcast, collectively, all the guests and I, I think of, you know, this podcast really as like a community think tank of like, education reform, and, a do it one conversation at a time. But I think, I don’t know if it’s just because I’m biased or I happen to I don’t really know why it’s working this way, but, the people that I really want to talk to, I guess I really am aligned.
00:30:31:12 – 00:31:04:20
Speaker 1
But just like everything that you have said, like, even the way that, our education systems are structured in that there’s like, such a demand, it’s such a top down, approach, and it’s based on having a very narrow definition of what success looks like. And, you know, demanding that that students perform, to very specific standards with a certain amount of speed and accuracy.
00:31:04:20 – 00:31:33:02
Speaker 1
And if you’re not able to meet those standards for whatever reason, you’re not seen as valuable to society. And because compulsory education is such a big funnel that sort of prepares you for life beyond, and, and to set you up, like, if you don’t prove that you are worthy, then you kind of get left behind.
00:31:33:04 – 00:32:16:10
Speaker 1
And so I’m wondering, how did you I know that you mentioned your experience with working with after school and how you enjoyed the summer programs, but I’m wondering why, you started focusing or if that is the reason. But, if you ever plan to kind of, do focus on, like, daytime, like, transition into, like, daytime hours of school or if you exclusively, are focusing on afterschool in summer for a reason.
00:32:16:12 – 00:32:40:09
Speaker 2
Oh, to two pieces, I’ll say the, the way that we do daytime hours, which we’ve done a little bit of programing in the daytime, but we usually the professional development we do. So like I have one coming up at a school next week where I’m working with school day teachers and a lot of the work. We do it in the form of our social emotional learning training, but it still taps out what we need to get at.
00:32:40:11 – 00:33:04:02
Speaker 2
And so we do that work through the professional development in the capacity building on that side. And there’s actually a elementary school in New York that we work with as well. So that’s we do do some daytime stuff in that way, but I’ll give you some numbers that I give to everyone, everywhere. Kids spend 80% of their waking hours outside of school aged zero.
00:33:04:03 – 00:33:29:17
Speaker 2
You can Google it. You can look at it. But if you’re in this western 8 to 3, September to June system ish, then you it’s 80% of their waking hours outside of school. The upper income span nine times the amount of the low income on outside of school activities. So by the sixth grade, that amounts to about a 6000 hour learning gap between upper income youth and lower income youth.
00:33:29:18 – 00:33:50:17
Speaker 2
And I don’t know if your experiencing this, but I know growing up I had some Korean classmates who they were in Saturday school. Their parents were paying for these things for them to have extra learning time even if they didn’t have the money. Like there’s this concept. Understood that 8 to 3 September to June is not enough. Like my, that’s only a tiny snapshot.
00:33:50:17 – 00:34:14:00
Speaker 2
And so the way I like to liken it, one of our other partners, now that we’re really interested in more of the work around, is they’re called out to see and they’re focused on the blue economy and oceanography. The ocean makes up 70 to 75% of our Earth. We’ve only explored 5 to 10% of it. But like the ocean can be a game changer.
00:34:14:00 – 00:34:40:14
Speaker 2
Kelp can remove carbon from the air. It like, I don’t know, at least 5 to 10 x regular trees can. And so for me that is the same. Like that’s metaphorical for the after school space. Like we have not tapped this space in the way that we can. And like if we actually focus more on closing that and then the way we spend federal dollars and all the dollars, most of it goes to this tiny snapshot, and we do very little in the afterschool summer space.
00:34:40:14 – 00:35:02:13
Speaker 2
And that’s actually like, if you think about how many of those people participated in afterschool programs and were in clubs and all the things, you don’t see people in college who are just at home watching Ricki Lake, like, that’s not who’s there. And it doesn’t start at just high school that that these experiences started. It starts in elementary.
00:35:02:13 – 00:35:25:11
Speaker 2
It’s start. It’s a build up. So when we look at test scores, when we look at all of these things, it is not there ever. Because you’re not equating what is happening that 6000 hour gap. And so while I think it’s important to shift the school day system because it then usually it flows from the school day to the after school, it’s like the trickle down.
00:35:25:11 – 00:35:53:16
Speaker 2
I think if we could flip it in after school and summer show school day, what we could do, then we can also just broaden. And there is this thing around like learning is learning. We’re talking learning spaces, which is a lot of people are homeschooling their kids. Like, we’re not even just like, let’s break it all up. So I think that’s kind of where I’m at is, yeah, it’s a both and but very much like we need some big focus on, on the extended learning space without school space.
00:35:53:18 – 00:36:23:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. That’s a really, really great, few metaphors that you gave. I’m thinking about, the micro schooling movement right now and like, you know, the pandemic sort of helped a lot of parents and educators realize how much educators were doing and also how little capacity they actually had, for lots of other things. And like the lack of resources.
00:36:23:16 – 00:36:57:00
Speaker 1
And there was just so much happening. And I think if we’re looking at numbers, I’ve never been good at numbers. But I think, like a lot of people lost, a lot of learning hours. And so I think like, academically socio, emotionally like, they’re sort of all, behind, I think. So I’ve heard, and then not to mention, like, literacy being kind of I don’t know, ten years behind, I don’t even remember.
00:36:57:02 – 00:37:39:00
Speaker 1
But there’s like a lot of stuff going on in public education, in mainstream education that I think, like the microscope movement, the unschooling movement, the alternative schooling movement has, like, really skyrocketed. And I’m curious, like how you see, sort of like change the tune, either competing with or collaborating with all of these different movements, going forward and how you see, like, how programs like yours and all these other movements are going to survive in the next, you know, ten, 20 years.
00:37:39:02 – 00:37:50:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. It’s a good question. I think I, I definitely don’t think it’s ever competition. I always want it to be collaboration.
00:37:50:04 – 00:38:11:12
Speaker 2
When we do our work, we don’t do it alone. So I’m not a gardening expert. I don’t know how to garden. We had slugs in the garden the other day. I had no idea what that meant. But our our lead gardener, she’s that they’re called the plant plug. La the kids. We’ve grown all kinds of things.
00:38:11:14 – 00:38:39:08
Speaker 2
Same for music, art, all these things. I think my gift is collaboration and bringing people together. I’d say kind of like a conductor. Is. Is one of the the the words I kind of describe what change tune wants to do because the system operates in silos and wants us to operate separately. And I think for the future, if we all want to grow our movements to to work together can be really powerful.
00:38:39:08 – 00:39:00:06
Speaker 2
I’ve talked with some homeschooling people, done a little bit of collaborating, want to do more? I think one of my challenges is we’re very small. You mentioned the social media clips. The news clips. That’s the problem. That’s the problem with social media. You’re like, oh, they’re doing well. Like it’s a it’s a grind and a struggle. Still very much right now.
00:39:00:07 – 00:39:24:22
Speaker 2
But I would like my dream next where we’re going is to create a retreat space for collaboration and for people to come together and see what’s possible. So if you saw Black Panther, imagine a Wakanda kind of where they went to that school and all, they had all the things like imagine the space like that, that people could come and think, how do we push our work forward?
00:39:24:22 – 00:39:30:13
Speaker 2
How do we rest? How do we move forward? So that’s, that’s that’s what’s coming next.
00:39:30:15 – 00:40:08:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. For sure. And you know, something that I hear about, regarding capitalism is that, creativity. Is a radical act. You know, in terms of like, I don’t want to say taking down capitalism, but sort of, because with our economic structures, like, we’re like the matrix, right? We’re all interchangeable and we’re only as much, valuable as much as we can create for the economy.
00:40:08:15 – 00:40:37:02
Speaker 1
And so, like, I feel like that has a really big power over, our education system, in general, at least in the United States, where like, it is all about, we have to, make everybody valuable and and no mistakes, like, you know, we. Anyway, and so I, I.
00:40:37:04 – 00:40:50:04
Speaker 2
Mean, I think, if I may, I think one of the things you’re saying is like, we don’t value humanity. We value money. That’s right. We we really tend to.
00:40:50:06 – 00:41:29:03
Speaker 2
Minimize the human experience and maximize like success based off of we we we equate worth with wealth. And wealth is, I think, one of the things we like to teach our children doesn’t come first of all, intrinsically. It comes intrinsically. And that intrinsic nature is really how you care for yourself, but also how you care for your, your, your, your, your friend, the person who you don’t like, like that’s that’s the true wealth of our world is there’s a South African vegetable moon to I am to as we are.
00:41:29:05 – 00:41:58:21
Speaker 2
And so that that is really like at the core of the work that we want to teach our children in. And I think it’s a big, big tension we see in the world. And I think what’s happening in colleges is a big problem, and we won’t go too far on that. But like I, the way children are being treated across this country, youth who are just standing so that people aren’t being hurt like I it’s it’s incongruent right now.
00:41:58:23 – 00:42:33:14
Speaker 1
Abso lutely. And, it is really kind of crazy. And so back to like, you know, what your mother was saying about, you know, like, people being crazy. It really is kind of a crazy world. And I do really think that you’re doing such incredible work. And really, collaboration is key. And I think one of the big things, from wrapping on season one of this podcast is the idea of, you know, right now schools are based on competition, right?
00:42:33:16 – 00:43:00:17
Speaker 1
On what we can do alone. But, really, we should be assessing our students on their ability to collaborate with each other. And, I don’t know, mobilize, change in, in things that need change in society to, you know, like you said, about that, the idea of ubuntu, right, of like I am because we are or the other way around.
00:43:00:19 – 00:43:31:08
Speaker 1
And to really be community minded. And so I love that you’re doing so much collaboration. And I’m wondering, what do you think, can help your vision reach fruition either greater or faster? What are some things that you would need to click into place, like what are some things that society can do? What kind of technologies do you think we need to create?
00:43:31:10 – 00:43:42:00
Speaker 1
What are some things that will make your life easier to make your visions? You know, far reaching?
00:43:42:02 – 00:44:14:07
Speaker 2
I mean, I won’t lie, the first thing that comes to mind is money. Money? Although we just talked about our capitalist society, though, money for me creates capacity in that the ability to pay people. Like, I’ve gotten lots of people to volunteer times and do for us, and also to be consistent for our youth to produce, you know, resources have we feed our children like and, you know, for, for the people to work and have an opportunity to, to do this work.
00:44:14:09 – 00:44:40:09
Speaker 2
We do live in a capitalist society. So what, we need some money to, like, grow the work. I think the second piece that we need is people, for those who have time and maybe not money, like, definitely, there’s a lot of work to be done and can be done. And then third, I’m in love with I, I know that it’s can be very problematic, but it can be very powerful as well.
00:44:40:11 – 00:45:02:18
Speaker 2
I allows for you to create a lesson or design a solution for kids based off of their interests in a very customized way. It expedites, you know, I mentioned earlier in the call, I don’t like writing. I don’t have to worry about that with I anymore. You I still get to communicate my thoughts. Your eyes only as good as your prompts.
00:45:02:18 – 00:45:24:04
Speaker 2
So there’s still the critical thinking element. But I think as we think going forward. The more we can get AI to allow us to to enable and empower our creativity, the more powerful, our afterschool and summer learning space could be.
00:45:24:06 – 00:46:17:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I know, that’s really great. And the question that I sort of ask everybody, you know, as we wrap up is, you know, when you look back on your education journey, your career, the businesses that you were a part of, and also creating change the tune, in all of that journey, is there anything that you wish you had more support for or, you know, is there anything that you wish could have been more helpful to you that you could have, that you had more guidance for, that you could have maybe reached your goals sooner or easier?
00:46:17:21 – 00:46:22:18
Speaker 2
00:46:22:20 – 00:46:28:07
Speaker 2
00:46:28:09 – 00:46:41:06
Speaker 2
This is a really interesting question. I think,
00:46:41:08 – 00:47:13:19
Speaker 2
When you started talking, I thought you were going a different place. What I’ll say the there’s a, when you said song, where she says you were loved by someone. When you look back on your life, you were loved. And so but still kind of tying it in. And one thing I never said about change of tune, we’re called change the tune because we use music through our professional development, our classroom space, whatever we’re doing and we’ve, we’ve I mean, I think.
00:47:13:21 – 00:47:44:05
Speaker 2
As a fellow, Libra balance is a struggle for me and being one. We started this call. I talked about 15 flights in doing the different work, and I haven’t figured out balance in pushing a movement forward. And I think probably in love, like, how do you balance the things for yourself and for others? And so I think that’s probably what I could have used and still could use more help for.
00:47:44:07 – 00:48:29:01
Speaker 1
Awesome. Is there any, advice or wisdom that you wish to impart on, you know, your fellow collaborators in, In change, in changing the education systems in a way that, you know, allows students to, have more meaningful experiences, and make time for rest, and really have, fulfilling patterns forward by having those experiences, in their early lives, before they go off and, you know, become adults.
00:48:29:03 – 00:49:00:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think the what we just covered around this idea, around working with others, I think that like, I am because we are. And if you don’t work well with others, figure it out. Learn how to. If you do work well with others, work well more, engage more people. Like who can you connect? Always thinking. Always stay thinking about how to connect.
00:49:00:22 – 00:49:19:04
Speaker 2
How can we connect more dots? Because I think one of the biggest challenges in our system, in our world is that we do things alone. And I’m very clear that I haven’t done this work alone. I have a team of people with me. I have a team of people who supported me in the past as well. And I have a team, people who are virtually rooting for me as well.
00:49:19:04 – 00:49:31:21
Speaker 2
And so I’m grateful for all of those connections. And so who can you connect with? How who can you build with, make connections?
00:49:31:23 – 00:49:40:20
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.