Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Gastronomee—a twenty something storyteller and content creator—about her experience dropping out of Harvard, twice, and her early memories of growing up in an Asian immigrant family. We talk about the different perspectives of education and opportunities for women she received from her community in Canada and in Asia, and how that fueled both her intrinsic and extrinsic motivation in education and career. We also discuss the nonlinear path she took to navigating her career, as well as the time and reflection she allowed herself to preserve her mental health and optimize for joy and social connection.
Here is our edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:16 – 00:00:26:20
Speaker 1
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:26:22 – 00:00:52:06
Speaker 1
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea like me, I hadn’t received adequate attention in school. I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems.
00:00:52:12 – 00:01:17:22
Speaker 1
To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers, with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with gastronomy, a 20 something storyteller and content creator, about her experience dropping out of Harvard twice and her early memories of growing up in an Asian immigrant family.
00:01:18:00 – 00:01:42:06
Speaker 1
We talk about the different perspectives of education and opportunities for women she received from her community in Canada and Asia, and how that fueled both her intrinsic and extrinsic motivation in education and career. We also discussed the non-linear path she took to navigating her career, as well as the time and reflection she allowed herself to preserve her mental health and optimize for joy and social connection.
00:01:42:07 – 00:01:49:03
Speaker 1
Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:49:05 – 00:02:13:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, so I’m an oldest child, the first of three siblings. And I think when you’re an oldest child, there’s always an archetype around that, that you are a hard working kid, your patient often overachieving, always in leadership position and delegating tasks. Interestingly, though, I was never forced by my parents. My parents were always very relaxed people. You know, they had a very honestly progressive view towards education.
00:02:13:07 – 00:02:44:20
Speaker 2
It was never get into the system, get into the Ivy League and do this and this and this. It was always, you know, very free rein, with both my siblings and I, it was just pursue your dreams and do whatever you want. And what actually happened was when I reached about middle school, high school, I started to realize that there is this world of higher education and this world of universities and elite universities, and a lot of my friends had gotten sucked into that vortex and had gotten admitted to a lot of these institutions.
00:02:44:22 – 00:03:00:11
Speaker 2
These are people that I really respected and really looked up to. So I thought, you know, if they can do this, why can’t I? And to me, at the time, it was if you want to make a change in the world, which I’ve always been very impact driven. That’s something I’ve always really cared about. at the time, I wanted to become a lawyer.
00:03:00:17 – 00:03:17:13
Speaker 2
A lot of the top lawyers come out of Harvard, come out of Yale, come out of Princeton. And I thought I want to follow in those people’s footsteps, you know, that really looked up to Obama, Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton, you’ve got all these great names who come out of these really great universities. So that was kind of the driving factor there.
00:03:17:13 – 00:03:43:10
Speaker 2
And after I started getting into kind of the vibe of trying to get a 4.0 GPA, studying incredibly hard for the S.A.T., racking up all these extracurriculars, that was kind of one. I think everyone’s expectation around me followed the same trajectory. That’s to say that my parents hadn’t expected anything before. But as you continue down this path and as you start racking up the names and the wins, it kind of becomes the new normal.
00:03:43:12 – 00:04:08:21
Speaker 2
And then that’s when the pressure starts becoming placed. And I want to say the last three years of high school is when that really showed. So it started to take a bit of a toll on my mental health. There were days where I was sleeping 1 to 2 hours a night for weeks on end, and it was just everything I was thinking about was to geared towards getting a ticket in, because to me, at the time, the mindset had become, if I don’t get that ticket in, what is this amount to?
00:04:09:02 – 00:04:29:19
Speaker 2
And it had become the new normal for my parents. Did it become the new norm or for the friends around me? And you know, eventually, as will unfold, the story that will start to unravel a little bit more. But I guess that the long answer to your question, which is as a kid, just very relaxed. older child, older child in an Asian household.
00:04:29:21 – 00:04:38:11
Speaker 2
pretty typical upbringing there. And it wasn’t until the end of middle school that we really start to see a turning point there in terms of character and personality.
00:04:38:13 – 00:05:27:21
Speaker 1
Wow. Okay, so so I’m kind of like sensing or what I mean is that there was no pressure from your caregivers to perform and it was really self-driven. And it was, you know, your choice to pursue something that you had sort of seen. and you wanted to follow in the footsteps of your role models. And I’m wondering, yeah, I’m wondering if you have any, like, stories around, like, I don’t know, like, I don’t think, I don’t know if I got this, but it didn’t seem like you were, like a poor performing student prior to this, like, you know, new drive.
00:05:27:23 – 00:05:35:23
Speaker 1
it seemed like. And so I’m kind of assuming there, but, I mean, was there a big change?
00:05:36:01 – 00:05:50:17
Speaker 2
I want to say no, because I had always loved learning. So I remember being in kindergarten. I would actually there’s a library right next to my school. I would be that kid this before we had iPads and before we had cellphones. I would bring my mom to the library and we have two giant tote bags full of books.
00:05:50:19 – 00:06:08:20
Speaker 2
And I know some kids share this as a traumatic event, but we would go to Costco and grab these giant Massmart workbooks and the English Mart workbooks. I loved doing them and it really was just. My brain was a sponge and I loved watching after school shows or teaching me advanced math. But I was like, I don’t know, elementary school.
00:06:09:01 – 00:06:27:05
Speaker 2
And it was always just this, you know, love for learning, a true love for learning. I would read through dictionaries, encyclopedias. I love learning about like light refraction. When I was in kindergarten, dinosaurs when I was in first grade. So it was always school was always just a love for me. And school was kind of a safe place.
00:06:27:05 – 00:06:56:00
Speaker 2
Not to say that anything went on at home, but I loved meeting kids. I love learning instruments. I love learning arithmetic, and it was just as far as my brain could go. And it was never just in one area too. So I was never a poor performer, and I really did love the things that I was doing. what I think I didn’t realize there was that that love for learning changed into almost a need, and it was a need to overachieve before it was just learning for the joy of it and learning to develop skills that I really wanted.
00:06:56:02 – 00:07:05:11
Speaker 2
And afterwards it became learning to get a certain percentage or learning to impress a certain person. So that’s kind of where the story goes.
00:07:05:13 – 00:07:35:14
Speaker 1
And I’m wondering like, you know, this is just, you know, I just recently became a mom. Like, it’s been a little more congratulations. Thank you. But, you know, I realized very quickly, I have no idea what I’m doing. And, you know, our my daughter is very impressionable. but she has her own personality. And so I still don’t know from firsthand experience, like how we shape people.
00:07:35:16 – 00:08:01:09
Speaker 1
and so I’m just wondering, for you, like, was there any kind of nurturing or, like, encouragement or, you know, like external signs from, like, the adults around you, like, sort of gently, you know, urging performance or, you know, anything like that.
00:08:01:11 – 00:08:21:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I guess the first thing I’ll say is no one really knows what they’re doing. This is something that I talked to you about, my parents and my friends all the time. We’re kind of always navigating the world here. I think my parents were pretty free reign with me as the oldest child. Part of it was the fact that I had two younger siblings who are only, I want to say, a year and a half apart from each other.
00:08:22:00 – 00:08:38:07
Speaker 2
So when they were raising them, it was always just, you got two monkeys running around the house, and the older one kind of falls into the background. So it always became, I don’t want to say they were pushing me any way, but it became a responsibility and an onus for me at the very young age to pick up the pieces on my own.
00:08:38:07 – 00:08:56:14
Speaker 2
It was mom and dad are busy. That’s understandable. But here, as a result, I need to take on that responsibility. So I think that’s kind of where the discipline comes from in terms of the learning that we talked about. But it’s also observing the way that my parents were caring for my siblings and knowing that I had to step in at certain points.
00:08:56:16 – 00:09:24:13
Speaker 2
So if mom was in the kitchen and dad was at work and some things were to happen, you know, something’s got to spill or someone’s about to hit their head, it was an instinct as an older sibling to come in and be that kind of eye savior at some points. So I think that’s kind of where the responsibility they need to be a third parent, which is something that I read a lot of social psychology about, and the need to almost be a really good role model for the two younger siblings comes in.
00:09:24:15 – 00:09:45:13
Speaker 2
So that’s kind of the long story short. I would also like to say that I think I had a lot of aunts and uncles overseas in Singapore and in Hong Kong, where I want to say they place a lot more of an emphasis on getting certain grades. You know, being in Canada for most of my childhood versus being in Asia is a completely different experience.
00:09:45:15 – 00:10:01:11
Speaker 2
So I will say that there was a bit of a push from people who weren’t my primary caregivers, but a bit of that familial push to which is I’m the oldest child in the family on both sides. So a lot of the attention and a lot of the what are you going to do and what are your plans?
00:10:01:11 – 00:10:08:10
Speaker 2
Are you getting tutoring? A lot of this Asian education sentiment was being radiated, even if it was overseas.
00:10:08:12 – 00:10:38:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. So you got a little bit of that wind, but just a little constant, in your face every day at home. Okay. Yeah. I think I’m kind of getting a good picture there. and so I’m kind of curious, like, on the school front, what kind of subjects did you enjoy and what kind of, I guess validation or feedback or critique or any kind of support did you receive from, you know, your teachers around those like, subjects that you enjoyed?
00:10:38:03 – 00:10:56:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, I walk I’ll be completely honest with you here. I loved English and I loved history and social sciences. I hated math as a kid up until I want to say about ninth grade, I really hated math until ninth grade, until I had one teacher who completely changed the game for me. But I loved literature. I love reading Shakespeare.
00:10:56:18 – 00:11:16:07
Speaker 2
Actually. I loved creative writing. I think there are lots of people who are born natural creators that kind of get phased out of them over time, as we’re told, you know, you have to do something in the hard sciences. And then we had Disney in math, but I really loved expression. I loved art and journalism. I remember the first time I took a journalism classes in sixth grade.
00:11:16:09 – 00:11:38:18
Speaker 2
I love going around with my little spatula microphone, interviewing teachers around the school, and those things brought so much joy to me. and I think in terms of my teachers, oftentimes I found it really easy to connect with the teachers on the arts and humanities side. I’m not sure if it was just the nature of what they were doing, or the fact that they could express something so vulnerable.
00:11:38:20 – 00:12:00:02
Speaker 2
Whether it was we were analyzing characters in a book or in a movie, and they could so eloquently say, this is how that character’s feeling. This might be how you’re feeling, and making that bridge between what was fiction and reality. That was really inspiring. So I always felt a closer bond with my English teachers, with my history teachers, and honestly, they were a really big force to support too.
00:12:00:02 – 00:12:19:02
Speaker 2
I think teachers are underrated and they’re amazing people. They’ll stay after school and help you if you need to. sometimes I would like bring them an extra biscuit at lunchtime. We’d sit down and have a full conversation over lunch. So much of that time was spent nurturing a really great classroom environment, so I do regret not going back more and telling that to them.
00:12:19:02 – 00:12:23:19
Speaker 2
I’ve lost touch with most of them, but they really were there for me.
00:12:23:21 – 00:12:50:03
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh, that’s so like ideal. I’m like, I’m kind of look back on my own childhood and I can remember like, very, you know, supportive teachers. But I can also remember some of, like the painful things that they might have said. Like, I remember one teacher I really looked up to, was really surprised that I got into college at all.
00:12:50:05 – 00:12:51:15
Speaker 2
Oh my goodness, I know.
00:12:51:15 – 00:13:23:11
Speaker 1
And I was just like, you know, I looked up to this person, and this teacher could do no wrong. But there were like things that this teacher would say, or do or like the looks that made me realize like, oh, I wasn’t, as valued as maybe, you know, other other students. So I’m just like, there are always those kinds of thorns in my memories of like, oh yeah, great teachers.
00:13:23:11 – 00:13:52:03
Speaker 1
And then also like, I had a very great balance. I’m wondering if, there were any moments for you, where you didn’t get, support, whether it was like, you know, like a particular grade, like, are there any memories that stick out from, you know, either like middle school or high school or even beyond, from your teachers that may have been not so positive or that still.
00:13:52:05 – 00:14:13:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. Stick out. Yeah. So I think for the most part, I’m actually really fortunate to have had really supportive teachers. So maybe it’s a byproduct of being in Canada where everyone’s just comically known to be very kind. But I can’t actually think of one point in Canada, at least when I had teachers who were kind of being prickly or thorny to both myself and my peers.
00:14:13:09 – 00:14:40:10
Speaker 2
maybe it was the fact that I was never good. I was always someone who would. People please. No, I would sit on my hands, do the homework, look down. I never tried to cause trouble, so I was kind of overlooked at times as well. There is one incident I can’t think of though, in Malaysia actually. So a part of my dad’s side comes from Malaysia and when I was there overseas, I had enrolled in a term in Malaysia at an elementary school, and we weren’t in the capital, not in Kuala Lumpur, not in any of the major cities.
00:14:40:12 – 00:14:57:13
Speaker 2
And it was quite a conservative town where, you know, whenever I brought up this is about, I want to say seventh, eighth grade, I was starting to think about what I wanted to do career wise. And like I said, I love talking, I loved writing, so I thought law was going to be a great path for me. And I was telling my classmates about this.
00:14:57:13 – 00:15:18:18
Speaker 2
I said, I want to go to university in Canada, in America, and you’ve got really great people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg that I look up to, and I want to be just like them. And this teacher over here or a guidance counselor can’t remember. I think it was a guidance counselor. She pulls me aside and she goes, you know, as a girl, you know, there’s really no need for you to be educated to that extent.
00:15:18:18 – 00:15:38:08
Speaker 2
You know, it’s great that you go to school here, but it was very much a culture of girls are raised to basically get high school education, and there’s no expectation you go beyond that because what you do is you’ll stay at home, be a wife, be a mother, take care of the family shop, take care of your elderly parents.
00:15:38:10 – 00:16:06:07
Speaker 2
But there’s no pursuit or there’s no expectation you will pursue higher education beyond that or pursue graduate school to any extent. So that was one moment that was a little discouraging. And I was always wondering, why is that? You wouldn’t tell a boy that. Why is it that these boys are being sent off to military academies to become doctors, and are so held in such a high regard, and you’re telling girls that all they have to do is learn to sew and learn to cook?
00:16:06:09 – 00:16:23:09
Speaker 2
Why it doesn’t. And that was kind of what I started to read up on the gender imbalance, things like the pay gap, things like the fact that women a lot of the time in Southeast Asia and in Korea and in East Asia, everywhere around the world, don’t have the privilege of education the same way we do in the West.
00:16:23:11 – 00:16:43:10
Speaker 2
That became a very pressing topic for me. I think it sparked a hidden fire that pushed me to be, hey, you know what? The moment I go back to Canada, the moment people stop telling me these kinds of things, I’m going to work my butt off and I’m going to get into grad school, I’m going to go to university, and I’m going to show them I did that so that that was a big driver.
00:16:43:12 – 00:17:12:22
Speaker 1
Wow, man. Okay. So I’m seeing like that internal fire, right. Like coming from multiple places of like, you know, wanting to prove some people wrong. And also like you had both the push from that and also the pull from actually having role models that you looked up to. so that’s like, I’m getting goosebumps. That’s pretty amazing. and to have that at such a young age, you know, I think you mentioned it was Malaysia in elementary school.
00:17:12:22 – 00:17:33:15
Speaker 1
Like, that’s such a young age to actually develop that strong trunk of like, I have self-confidence and things like that. and so I’d love to know, like what happened after high school. Right. I know you said the three years. Were you, I think. I don’t know if you said it in this conversation or if I heard or else.
00:17:33:17 – 00:17:57:14
Speaker 1
but you were talking about, like, how you did all the extracurriculars, you did the sports, you did everything you could do to pack, your resume or your CV so that you could get a ticket into these Ivy League schools. So can you tell us a little bit about what happened to, after college? And, you know, you’re applying to all of these schools and things like that?
00:17:57:16 – 00:18:22:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. So right after college, I had actually went to Harvard University, for my undergrad. I went in with the intention of concentrating in biochemistry and in statistics. And this was kind of my segue into wanting to go into health law. I had done the research beforehand. I looked I was paranoid about this. I was reading that people who did the best in the Lsat were science and math majors, so I was trying to trick the system, game it.
00:18:22:01 – 00:18:43:12
Speaker 2
I was thinking that far. I had to thinking I didn’t really care about the sciences. Like we said, but I was pushing myself from this program to increase my chances strategically of getting into law school. as one might expect, that crashed and burned. I didn’t struggle with the subject matter, but I didn’t care about it. And it was this passion that wasn’t fulfilled.
00:18:43:14 – 00:19:03:08
Speaker 2
I was waking up every day hating my classes. I hated getting up. It was a really tough time. eventually got to a point where I had to leave because I struggled to find any purpose in what I was learning, and to me, it wasn’t worth the price tag anymore. it’s not a cheap institution to go to.
00:19:03:10 – 00:19:28:18
Speaker 2
we relied a lot in family funds. I had been working through high school to save up for that, so I thought, you know what? This really isn’t worth it anymore. And most importantly, I realized that your 20s are your prime years. And if you’re spending it kind of just wandering around, but also paying into a system that isn’t teaching you anything, it might be better to pull back and really reorient it, recalibrate what your focus is.
00:19:28:19 – 00:19:47:12
Speaker 2
So I stepped away. I took a year off and I eventually went back to Canada. So the University of Toronto to finish up my undergraduate and I took a couple years off again after to work in industry. I had worked with startups, I worked with startups in North America, back in Southeast Asia, like experiment with so many different opportunities.
00:19:47:12 – 00:20:11:19
Speaker 2
I dabbled in consulting, I dabbled in government. I dabbled in what else I do investment banking, trying to find a sense of purpose. And I think I probably went through about ten different industries across 3 to 4 years, and I could never really find a fit. And not to mention that my parents had always had this bit of an they weren’t angry, but they were definitely not content with the decision to leave Harvard.
00:20:11:21 – 00:20:32:01
Speaker 2
there was always a little bit of resentment, I think, which is often a big piece of critique I get, which is you have the spot. Why didn’t you follow through with it and why didn’t you finish it? I think it’s a little hard to tell people, especially my parents generation, about the toll on mental health and how difficult it was to be in that environment.
00:20:32:03 – 00:20:52:18
Speaker 2
Very pressurized container all the time, and it’s a little hard to put those into words in a way that they understand as immigrant parents. And so eventually did go back. I decided I wanted to do higher education, mostly just to satiate my parents and to tell them, hey, you know what? Let’s put this behind us. I’ll get it done.
00:20:52:18 – 00:21:17:22
Speaker 2
I’ll suck it up. Let’s give us another run. So I went back, decided to do a masters program, and as one would expect, my heart was never in it as well. And luckily I had worked for a few years. I was financially independent and I was in a position where after about a year, feeling the same way, I felt like, you know, between the four years that had happened between undergrad and the master’s program, nothing had changed.
00:21:18:00 – 00:21:41:13
Speaker 2
It had been same mindset, same philosophy, and I felt like I wasn’t progressing, even though the piece of paper would say otherwise. so I had to pull back a second time, and it was really just a force of, you know what? I really cannot keep dedicating my life and my education to other people, whether it is societal pressure, whether it is parental pressure that was newly developed.
00:21:41:13 – 00:22:06:11
Speaker 2
Actually, as I mentioned, my parents were never like that when I was a kid. So it was a bit of a shock. And it was about paving your own way. It’s also the realization, after a couple of years out of high school, that nobody really cares which university or college you go to there is a value in education no matter where you go, and it’s about making the most of your experience rather than where the name actually is.
00:22:06:12 – 00:22:28:04
Speaker 2
If you’re not in an environment where you can take advantage of the resources around you, it doesn’t matter. If you go to Harvard, it doesn’t matter if you go to Oxford, doesn’t matter. You go to Stanford. It’s not going to benefit you. And so being able to put yourself in a place where your mindset is really in the right place, where you’re with the right people, that’s going to push you so much more, which is eventually what I found with other schools.
00:22:28:06 – 00:22:30:22
Speaker 2
so that was a really big turning point for me.
00:22:31:00 – 00:22:52:06
Speaker 1
Wow. Do you remember, the like, specific moment where that kind of change happened for you, like of, you know, taking ownership of your life and deciding, you know, I’m not going to live my life for other people.
00:22:52:08 – 00:23:12:19
Speaker 2
That’s actually a great question. I love it because there is one big moment that comes up to my head. So one day I think it was a Wednesday morning. I woke up and I just couldn’t get out of bed and it was like, there’s this huge gravitational pull just pushing on me in my dorm bedroom. And I think I laid there for a good 72 hours.
00:23:12:21 – 00:23:33:03
Speaker 2
I didn’t get up to eat. I didn’t get up to drink water. I would wake up, kind of be kind of groggy. My alarm would go off, I would turn it off, and then I just couldn’t do anything. My body was limp and I had lost control of every single muscle. And I think when you get to that point, it’s a pretty clear indicator that you are not doing something that makes you happy.
00:23:33:05 – 00:23:50:13
Speaker 2
And it was this feeling of, I have no purpose in anything I do anymore. It was a feeling of, you know, I had a job at the time that I really didn’t care about a call, that I really didn’t want to take a class I didn’t really want to go to. So what’s the point of getting up? You know, if it’s all these things, none of which bring me joy?
00:23:50:13 – 00:24:07:23
Speaker 2
At the same time, I struggled a lot with making meaningful connections. I had acquaintances at the university, but I couldn’t really call in when a true friend. I think a lot of people I was looking for friends who would indulge in more genuine conversations beyond, you know, what’s your grade? What’s your major? You know what are you interested in?
00:24:07:23 – 00:24:28:05
Speaker 2
I was looking for people who would be real connections. Real friends have conversations like the one that you and I are having, and no one seem to want to break out of that shell. It was very much a stay professional, stay on acquaintance terms kind of mindset, which I struggled with, and it just felt like again, it was isolating nose into purpose.
00:24:28:05 – 00:24:44:04
Speaker 2
I was in a job I was only in, I think I was 22 at the time, thinking I was going to stay for 40 years for the pension. And when you’re 22, you really shouldn’t be thinking about your pension plan. and that was a turning point for me. I woke up, I’m serious. It was I was going to stay in that job for 40 years.
00:24:44:09 – 00:25:08:13
Speaker 2
And the plan was, you know what? If nothing matters anyways, I’ll just stay in a job that gives me a social security net. And that was the only thing I was optimizing for. When you’re in your early 20s, there’s so much more to optimize for. And so that was a turning point. I think after those 72 hours of marinating and feeling so disgusted with myself and feeling so just depressed, I realized, you know what?
00:25:08:15 – 00:25:31:14
Speaker 2
I cannot survive 40 years of this. I am not going to stick this through for the pension plan and something needs to change. And so it turned into a bit of a debrief about what actually is it that makes me unhappy is the fact that I’m seeing a lot of elitism, is the fact that I’m in a program I really despise, is the fact that I am away from home, and really just in a place that I can’t find my people in.
00:25:31:16 – 00:25:48:06
Speaker 2
And turns out it was all of the above. And so again, pulling back, recalibrating, finding a community of people who I really did enjoy spending time with and changing careers again was, in my opinion, the right decision. But that was the driving factor. There.
00:25:48:07 – 00:26:22:07
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh. Yeah, I think so. I’ve spoken about this with other people. I think also even on this podcast about like the physical or the physical manifestation of depression. and, you know, my mother was chronically depressed for the majority of my childhood. And so, you know, for me, I didn’t know it was depression. But when depression takes hold of your physicality, it is really damaging.
00:26:22:07 – 00:26:54:23
Speaker 1
And I think that, you know, like there are a lot of people who still separate, like mental health from physical health. And, you know, I, I’m really so I have an eastern medicine doctor, I see acupuncturist. So I’m like very into TCM. And what I really love about traditional Chinese medicine is that they integrate. Right. So if I tell them I have a physical issue they tell me about, they ask me about my emotions, they ask me about, well, is there something that’s ailing me where what could have caused this thing?
00:26:55:01 – 00:27:32:04
Speaker 1
It how far did it go back? You know, and I think in the West, we don’t see it that way still. And, I think because certain Asian countries take on that like capitalistic drive from the West, they are also now starting to separate the mental and the physical. So and you talking about like the you looking for social connections and how I feel like that’s actually by a lot of doctors say that that’s the single most predictor of like longevity and health.
00:27:32:06 – 00:27:47:01
Speaker 1
And so I’m really glad for you that you made that realization while you were in university. You, you know, and you have so many years ahead of you, like you were talking about the 40 years of, like, the pension, you know, your health, your pension.
00:27:47:03 – 00:27:48:00
Speaker 2
Exactly.
00:27:48:00 – 00:28:11:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so I’m so, like, proud of you and so glad that you were able to make that realization so quickly. And I’m wondering, so what did you do to sort of find community and find those connections that, you know, could have brought you joy? And what did you go and do just to bring that joy into your life?
00:28:12:00 – 00:28:28:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think the biggest well, there’s two things that I really loved doing. The first one was I reached out to my high school friends. They were people that I had fell out of touch with, people who were really important to me during those stressful years of high school, people who maybe I should have treated a little bit better.
00:28:28:04 – 00:28:52:01
Speaker 2
Looking back in hindsight, and I reached out sometimes to just say, hey, you know, I really miss you. I remember having this memory with you. Let’s chat. And it was actually magical how that could so quickly turn around. I had left university, or I left high school thinking that these people were never going to see me again, that we were going to move on, closes chapters of our lives, move away.
00:28:52:01 – 00:29:11:21
Speaker 2
Never see them because most of them have stayed in Canada and I was in the States. And it was actually shocking to me how quickly people can forgive and how quickly people can turn over a new leaf. These are people who got back to me within the hour, my very best friend through high school who I hadn’t talked to in, I want to say six or 6 to 8 months.
00:29:11:23 – 00:29:36:22
Speaker 2
I messaged him within 20 minutes he got back to me. He said, we’re going to go on a walk right now. And I was actually back in in home for the winter break, so it was really helpful. He lived down the street. We went on a four hour work just to reconnect, and I think that was really meaningful for me, because it was people who had seen me grow and who had seen me at my best or objective best, and who are now seeing me reversed.
00:29:36:22 – 00:29:56:19
Speaker 2
And so they knew how bad the situation was, and they knew exactly what to do to help get me out of that. The second thing is there’s a magic to talking to strangers. I think, you know, reaching out on Instagram to LinkedIn. Yeah. People obviously that you trust in have, you know, I’m not saying talk to strangers for if anyone’s young and listening out there, there’s a difference in you talking to strangers and then talking to strangers.
00:29:56:21 – 00:30:16:10
Speaker 2
So reaching out to people who I know you’ve a daughter, so I just want to make sure that, you know, everything is where it should be. so there are people who are writers on blogs, people who wrote columns on mental health, people who are students, you know, even people who wrote for the book review at Harvard who were vulnerable.
00:30:16:12 – 00:30:33:02
Speaker 2
And for some reason, in my mind, there was always this cognitive dissonance of, you know, I see their names, but I will never see their faces. And just because we don’t have a mutual connection means that I can never reach out to this person. oftentimes it also be people who are older or more senior than I was.
00:30:33:04 – 00:31:01:18
Speaker 2
Maybe it’s the filial piety that comes with this. I always thought, you know, I should hold back, not reach it to this person. I started cold messaging people on Twitter or on LinkedIn, on Instagram, people whose articles I was reading every day without even realizing there were real people behind these articles, and even professors at global universities, people in New Zealand and Japan and Spain who wrote really interesting articles about mental health, things that I would geek out and read when I was feeling lonely and eating dinner.
00:31:01:20 – 00:31:21:11
Speaker 2
And I would just say, you know what? This is such an amazing conclusion you’ve reached, or this piece of art or this work that you’ve done has really touched me. I’d love to just talk of the 30 minute call with you. And often these conversations would start very professional, but they would branch into what inspires you and why do you do the things you do and what gives you meaning?
00:31:21:11 – 00:31:43:15
Speaker 2
To continue with your research, to continue with your writing, to continue with your craft. And it also shocked me how much you could learn about a person within 30 minutes and how deep we could go. And behind every person is a tapestry is a story. You know you are the main character in your story, so sometimes you lose focus of the fact that everyone else is also main character in their story.
00:31:43:21 – 00:32:05:19
Speaker 2
And there is a wealth of experience, and there’s a wealth of knowledge that just needs to be tapped into. So that really transformed my experience. taking the time off to talk to people, reach out, understanding that now geography really is just kind of an abstract concept. There is no border anymore with the internet, and the only thing that stopping you is kind of your own brain and you’re overthinking.
00:32:05:19 – 00:32:24:03
Speaker 2
And so building those connections, even though I’ve never met these people in real life, knowing that I can lean on them virtually and that they’re thinking of me across the world, that really shaped the way that my mental health developed from there. and I’m really, really happy for the people that I’ve had the privilege to meet.
00:32:24:05 – 00:33:11:01
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh, that’s amazing. Like, you know, that drive and your, like, ability to. Take initiative and take action and, you know, turn what is hurting you and transforming that into change is truly remarkable. and the fact that you were able to do that from when you were younger and you do that so effortlessly, effortlessly now, I’m like so impressed, you know, I, I’m starting a new podcast with some friends, and we keep talking about how our younger, the younger generation, they’re amazing.
00:33:11:01 – 00:33:40:04
Speaker 1
Like they’re, you know, they’re doing things they understand trauma. They’re talking about, like, you know, healing and ancestral wounds. And I’m just like, gosh, if we had this language when we were younger, I don’t even know if I would have had the ability to, you know, do anything about it. But just, you know, it’s like conversation piece and I’m like, oh my gosh, our younger generation really does know what they’re doing.
00:33:40:06 – 00:34:02:17
Speaker 1
and so I’m wondering, like, I don’t know, I have to ask this question, like, where did that come from? Like that insight? that ability to look inward, where like, when is the earliest instance of you remembering that that was there? Does this question even make sense?
00:34:02:19 – 00:34:19:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I do. I can wrap my head around this. I think the first thing is, I recalled seeing some of my friends in high school going through similar questions, and when I was in high school, I’d always ignored the concept of mental health. I thought it was a sign of weakness, and I always thought, you know what?
00:34:19:19 – 00:34:39:17
Speaker 2
As long as you go to the gym and you can endorphin hack, then you’ll be fine. So that was actually how I coped for a very long time. In the first two years of university, I thought going and running really fast on the treadmill was going to fix my problems. it did not. And I just remember that was kind of the first inkling, you know, I was I was thinking back, I was like, is this what depression feels like?
00:34:39:19 – 00:35:05:06
Speaker 2
Is this what a mental health crisis feels like? And as I started thinking back about what my friends were going through, it made me realize maybe this is not as uncommon as I think. I think the thing that made me cross that barrier and start reaching out to people was getting out of my head that this was something I was facing independently, and realizing that it wasn’t an isolated issue, that I had seen a happen before in the people around me.
00:35:05:08 – 00:35:33:15
Speaker 2
I might have seen it at the library as I was passing a crying classmate over in the corner. I just never had the instinct to realize that, but then comforting my own internal psyche into thinking, you know, you’re experiencing this and it’s crappy, but it’s also not the first time anyone’s experience. This made me realize that. I’m also not sure this makes sense with everyone in young, adulthood is thinking and feeling the same things at different times and in different fonts.
00:35:33:20 – 00:35:52:10
Speaker 2
People are often thinking and asking the same questions over why am I doing this? Is this really what’s fulfilling me? They just have different ways of showing it. Some people cope with it better, some people hide it a lot better. But it was that realization that people around me also showed signs. And I don’t want to obviously label anyone or assume that they were.
00:35:52:12 – 00:36:14:01
Speaker 2
But there were some signs that, you know, we were facing the similar situation. And so it got me thinking, you know, even adults who seem like they’re so put together, people who are the very top of the ladder, probably also had similar thoughts and feelings when they were younger, too. So really, it’s all just a human experience. And that brought it back down to earth for me.
00:36:14:03 – 00:36:30:16
Speaker 2
And it made me it gave me the confidence of, you know what? I’m going to message this person. And what also really helped me was the worst they can say is no. And oftentimes people aren’t mean about it if they don’t have the time, they’ll gently say, you know what, I don’t have the time right now. Appreciate it.
00:36:30:20 – 00:36:51:07
Speaker 2
And, you know, that’s that’s fine, you know, but the best thing that can happen and the best possible outcome is so much more than that. It is you build a new friend, you build a new connection. You really get to pick someone’s brain. So the trade off is that there’s really no risk, but there’s a very high reward, and there’s very little things in life that have such a big difference between risk and reward.
00:36:51:11 – 00:37:00:21
Speaker 2
So when I jump at it and I did, and that really has changed my mindset towards other things as well. Just taking the leap for it.
00:37:00:23 – 00:37:29:23
Speaker 1
That’s amazing. And I think part of this kind of hinges upon like, you know, that we’re all social beings, right? And that we are stronger when we’re together. and also, like loneliness is really a big part of the depression, like feeling like I’m the only one going through this. But as you were talking about, like when you started to reach out to people, you started to realize, like, everybody goes through this just a different period of my life.
00:37:29:23 – 00:37:59:18
Speaker 1
And even if they’re not experiencing this now, they either have or they will, but maybe not so much the will part. But yeah, like, you know, it’s and so that’s kind of what makes us human is that, you know, and then you doing the amazing thing of actually reaching out to people. And I had to laugh because you’re like, you know, there’s, there’s a higher, chance and you got all statistic like and so, okay, she probably knows the math that I do.
00:37:59:18 – 00:38:22:11
Speaker 1
But you’re right. Like, you know, the worst thing that can happen is they’ll say no and you move on. but the best thing that could happen is you develop a new connection, and you don’t sit in that loneliness, by yourself, you are actually able to work it out with people who have either already gone through it or are going through it with you.
00:38:22:13 – 00:38:46:03
Speaker 1
and so that’s a really good insight. and so I kind of want to I think this like just amazing things here. And for people who are listening, I didn’t gather like the juiciest things because you have to go to her YouTube channel and like, go to her amazingly curated, beautiful Instagram, account gastronomy to check out.
00:38:46:05 – 00:39:15:06
Speaker 1
Thank you. Yeah, the the amazing stories that she does share. and so, you know, looking at all of the things that we did talk about and this journey of education and how, you know, you are able to do all of the things that were required, tired of you, you know, to do well in school and to go off to great colleges and have that experience.
00:39:15:07 – 00:39:46:19
Speaker 1
But they really failed you in, you know, prioritizing your health and your mental health and your joy. And I’m wondering what you think that schools or school systems or caregivers or teachers could have done to sort of given you that support in the mental health department or the health department that, you know, maybe you didn’t have to burn out, you know, later on in life.
00:39:46:21 – 00:40:08:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, that’s actually a hard question. I think a lot of schools do their best. even when I was at Harvard, I think, you know, they do put it in a decent amount of effort into the mental health programs. And ultimately, when there is that distance between faculty and student, there’s only so much you can do on a professional, institutional level.
00:40:08:16 – 00:40:35:07
Speaker 2
I think this is more geared towards than caregivers and people who are kinds counselors and people who really do get to face the students one on one is that you need to trust the process, and you have to understand that good things take time. I know a lot of the time, you know, this is something I’ve talked to my parents about, but their perception of time and their perception of years ago by is a lot faster than their children’s.
00:40:35:09 – 00:40:55:10
Speaker 2
And that’s because as you’re older and as you get older, each year becomes shorter and shorter, relatively, because you’ve had more years to go through it. So even though you know you’re a parent, you feel like your kid is running at a time and you want to push them to learn these lessons as fast as possible, you need to step back and think about a what were you like when you were 17 and 18?
00:40:55:11 – 00:41:20:13
Speaker 2
Do you have a reading figured out? The second is that, again, like you mentioned, younger generations have this way of resourcefulness. The resources at your kid’s disposal, the connectivity of the world now is arguably much greater than what you were able to experience. And so firstly, for them, a year is a much longer stretch of time, and the things they can do with that will often feel greater than what you feel.
00:41:20:19 – 00:41:42:05
Speaker 2
The second is that they have these tools, and they’re probably so tech savvy and probably so social that you don’t even realize, and they can really make a great use of that. I think the third thing, too, is understanding that there is no such thing as one pathway to success. And oftentimes the best learning and the fast is acceleration of growth.
00:41:42:05 – 00:42:07:19
Speaker 2
And learning is to make mistakes. So, you know, you can push and you can gently push, but you shouldn’t force because of anything that will turn them away from the path that you want them to go down. And oftentimes experience is the best teacher. I, you know, had two younger siblings. I used to be really frustrated, my brother because he is currently in high school, doesn’t seem to be going down the path that I did, but I had to remember that he’s a different human being.
00:42:08:00 – 00:42:40:10
Speaker 2
He’s carving his own path. He’s carving his own story. He is also very tech savvy. He understands the ins and outs of computers better than I ever could. And so for him to be able to delve into a different strength, one that I may not have had, but one that he has, is proof to me that, again, we’re two different people, and no matter how many mistakes I think he’s making, as long as he’s learning from them, and as long as he’s growing and he’s able to internally reflect and say, you know what, maybe that wasn’t the best judgment call, but I know what to do better next time.
00:42:40:12 – 00:42:49:04
Speaker 2
That is more growth than anything I can force on to him or me trying to force everything I know on to him. Sometimes you really need to let people figure that out on their own.
00:42:49:04 – 00:42:49:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:42:49:19 – 00:43:05:22
Speaker 2
Even if you don’t personally think it’s the right path. but I also, I think the most important one I’ll leave off with this is that there is no such thing as a linear path. I think over 80% of the people I’ve talked to have deviated in some way. I’ve talked to acrobats who ended up going to law school.
00:43:06:00 – 00:43:32:20
Speaker 2
I’ve talked to doctors who ended up being actors and painters, and everyone kind of works out in the end. Everyone’s path in the universe works, and in the end, the way that it’s supposed to. so just because a pathway worked for you, a parent doesn’t guarantee that’s going to succeed for your kid either. And I think, you know, even if you don’t believe any of that, just know that the universe remains in balance no matter what you do.
00:43:32:22 – 00:43:40:08
Speaker 2
So if you worry about your child, you worry about how they turn out. Everything works in the end. You just have to be a bit more patient with it.
00:43:40:10 – 00:44:11:02
Speaker 1
That’s amazing. Those are just like amazing gems of wisdom right there. And I wanted to sort of on my last question for you, in this conversation, I want to ask you if there were if you could go back in time and be a guide or a guidance counselor or a caregiver or adult in, in, in your life.
00:44:11:04 – 00:44:22:00
Speaker 1
so I guess it’s kind of like, you know, a Christmas Story, sort of like back into the past and kind of being there.
00:44:22:01 – 00:44:58:19
Speaker 1
What do you think you would have said to your younger self or done to sort of, maybe gear you or slow you down from pursuing this, like, heavy, like, control based path of, like, making sure that you were achieving, for the sake of, you know, getting that ticket and having this, observable success, useful life, in the perception of everybody else’s eyes.
00:44:58:23 – 00:45:17:16
Speaker 1
Right. What would you have you told yourself to either balance out that message that you are receiving from the inside of yourself, but also kind of externally, or how would you have balanced that message out?
00:45:17:18 – 00:45:34:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, the first thing would be I would have unplugged is computers after 2 a.m.. I think after a certain point I should have realized you know, there’s only so much you can get done. You are compromising on your sleep, which then snowballs into things like your mental health and your attitude and the way that you treat your relationships.
00:45:34:20 – 00:45:54:06
Speaker 2
I remember being so irritable and so frustrated all the time, and I couldn’t ever realize why until now. I’ve seen it’s because of lack of sleep. So if anyone’s out there and they’re in high school, they’re in college. Turn off the computer. You know, unplug the devices. If you have to set a screen limit for yourself, you’re not going to be much more productive after that.
00:45:54:08 – 00:46:11:22
Speaker 2
And take breaks with the computer. Honestly, I would have just taken the computer, put it in a safe, went, you know, all the gastronomy, go on a walk and go take a walk around the neighborhood, come back and you’re going to feel so much more refreshed. You might see a neighbor walking the dog. Strike up a conversation with them, see where that goes.
00:46:12:00 – 00:46:43:19
Speaker 2
I think on a more serious level than I would have invested more of my friendships. And I, looking back, is something I really regret. But after school, every day, I wish I’d just taken some time to grab a sandwich with them. I would have went to the movies, went to the mall I had always had a strict schedule of after class, rush home, or rush off to a competition or an extracurricular come back grind at home for 8 to 9 hours, and it was always just a vicious, endless cycle of isolation.
00:46:43:21 – 00:47:06:23
Speaker 2
And that’s how you build, first of all, bad habits in terms of what you think success looks like. But it also gears your brain to thinking you don’t need other social animals and other human beings around you when you really do. I think I read a study that was chronic chronic depression. Chronic loneliness for six months is the equivalent of smoking a pack of cigarets a day, and that really takes a toll on your health.
00:47:06:23 – 00:47:31:22
Speaker 2
I’m not sure if that’s the exact statistic, but it has reported that it takes years off your life and it’s as bad as if you were a smoker for a chronic period. Time. So I really wish I would have invested more in those friendships, that friendships, even if it’s stupid conversations, even if you’re just being teenagers every once in a while, they’re not pointless and you might feel a conversation is pointless.
00:47:31:22 – 00:47:56:13
Speaker 2
But what you don’t realize is that you’re building that social interaction, and you were building a safety. You were building people who are going to be there for you when you need it most. And also everyone cannot be on high alert all the time. You need to have those relaxing conversations. The example I always use is almost like if you were I have a hair tie here, so if you’re a rubber band, you can’t always be stretched to the max because that’s how you become brittle and you snap.
00:47:56:18 – 00:48:19:12
Speaker 2
You need to be able to relax, to perform at your best. And so going to that movie, going to that shopping trip, doing that girls day, those are so important. And frankly, you have 365 days in a year. Taking one day to yourself is not going to make a dent in your progress. So it’s your young years. It sounds so cliche, but please enjoy them.
00:48:19:17 – 00:48:36:06
Speaker 2
You are going to regret that when you don’t. And really, the people around you are. They love you, they want you around and you should really invest in those. The same way you invest in education and yourself.
00:48:36:07 – 00:48:45:05
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.