Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:07 – 00:00:27:02
Unknown
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:27:04 – 00:00:49:20
Unknown
I design curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school or at home, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale.
00:00:49:22 – 00:01:17:14
Unknown
To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems. To rethink what schools can be, what it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with an a Paralympian, a doctor of occupational therapy and now a farmer about her earliest memories of being formally and informally educated.
00:01:17:16 – 00:01:45:00
Unknown
We talk about how the education system does and does not prepare students for the real world, and what kind of mind shifts we need to make about the future roles of teachers and students going forward. We also discuss fear and an understanding of it that has completely revolutionized the way that I think about fear. Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:45:02 – 00:02:11:01
Unknown
I don’t remember my childhood, but I know, I mean, like, I feel like I’m a people pleaser and I always was right. I wanted to make people happy and, you know, and the people that I wanted to make happy change throughout the years, throughout my lifespan. so, you know, when I was a child that I wanted to make my parents, my brothers and sisters, I mean, I had my brothers happy.
00:02:11:03 – 00:02:53:07
Unknown
and I don’t know if. You know, I don’t know if I had any. You know, I. I would say, you know, my weaknesses would be probably in the realm of wanting to, like, go against the rules, you know, and, you know, kind of like, see where I can push the rules and boundaries and things like that. I wouldn’t say I was like a naughty child, but I definitely liked to see my boundaries and kind of push beyond the cutting edge in some ways, which has, you know, it’s come in.
00:02:53:09 – 00:03:19:09
Unknown
Yeah. I feel like it’s just developed more as a being an adult. my mom had developed a preschool where there were, a few families, that wanted to create, you know, preschool. And so, as in our church and, everybody had, like, very similar values and things like that. So I grew up, going to school that way.
00:03:19:09 – 00:03:41:12
Unknown
And I didn’t think that was really like, I didn’t know what school was when I was a kid. Right? So I thought, that’s how I learned how everyone learned. I thought that was school for everyone. So we got to, with each family doing different things, around, centered around certain topics, you know, all of their expertise, right?
00:03:41:14 – 00:04:11:13
Unknown
So I remember going to the Rose farm as a kid, and seeing how farming land and things like that. I remember my mom teaching about nutrition because she was a nurse. And I remember, learning about making bread and different types of stuff with different, parents and families. And, I know there was something about accounting in some way, and I can’t remember what we did, but there was something about business in in that mix.
00:04:11:13 – 00:04:55:09
Unknown
And, you know, I was like for three, four years old. So, I, you know, I thought that was my first experience of education, like formal education. But before that, my mom, it’s always been, huge in instilling the concept of, of like education is valuable and important. And, you know, as I get older, I start I start more understanding, more about education not only being a formal experience, but an experience that moves on with the span and, different in different forms and still exploring that.
00:04:55:09 – 00:05:22:00
Unknown
Wow. I have never heard this part of this amazing preschool experience that you had. I just had, like, my mouth open the entire time. That is so cool, because that’s kind of like how I imagine I want to educate my own daughter. and so that’s so cool. And I’m wondering, like, how did your mom like, what?
00:05:22:06 – 00:05:51:18
Unknown
I know you said that, you know, when you probably assuming that you talked to other people about their like, education journeys and you saw that this was kind of, you know, different, I’m kind of curious, like, what do you think made your mom want to do this? Oh, gosh. Yeah. my mom is, like, far from conventional, as you can get.
00:05:51:20 – 00:06:18:12
Unknown
And in the time period that we grew up in, like the 7070s, 80s and 90s, there wasn’t really a push in being out of the ordinary, out of convention. Right? that’s when there was a huge push in, like, the medical model where the mathematic models, science stuff and, you know, and I feel like she was way before our time because now it’s almost accepted.
00:06:18:12 – 00:06:57:05
Unknown
Right. That’s like the norm now. But back then, I always felt like I was a little, little bit different. Yeah. Because I had such unconventional things like, I mean, even experiences of, like, not eating sugar until I was in school, like college, I mean, high school, right. And things like that. Those are things that were very unconventional. my mom implemented in our family and, you know, like, now looking back, I feel like those are huge blessings to set me up for where I’m at now.
00:06:57:07 – 00:07:26:03
Unknown
and understanding that, you know, parents, I well, I think that, you know, your parents are the perfect parents for you. They may not be the perfect parents ever, but they’re definitely the perfect parents for you. And, I needed those things and those foundations in order for me to value education. For me, the value learning, just the general concept of learning and also just pushing yourself all the time.
00:07:26:05 – 00:07:57:23
Unknown
Right? Because, if you’re not moving forward, you are definitely not moving forward. Right? Meaning you’re moving backwards and there’s no such thing as staying at the same. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I know so this is really new to me. I’ve known you quite a bit and I’m really surprised that this is the first time I’m hearing about, these kinds of experiences in your early childhood education journey.
00:07:58:01 – 00:08:28:19
Unknown
and so, you know, I’m really fascinated by this and really interested because that’s kind of how I envision the future of education to be. Right. There’s such a like, huge proliferation of like, micro schools popping up. There are lots of like, policy being and like guidelines from, you know, laws at the federal level, at the state level being passed about like universal school choice and things like that.
00:08:28:19 – 00:08:57:08
Unknown
And so, you know, yes, you’re right. Your mother was very ahead of her time. and I’m really curious about this idea of, like, sugar, because I’m, like, obsessed with not giving my daughter sugar. And, like, we’ve eliminated it from, like, our, eating plan, our food, and, mostly. And so I’m curious, like, what was.
00:08:57:08 – 00:09:22:01
Unknown
And I know your mother was a nurse and things like that, but I know that that stuck with you, like you said, for a long period of your life until college. And I’m wondering, you know, there’s a lot of people talking now about how if you restrict food when, young people are young, that they can develop eating disorders later on and things like that.
00:09:22:01 – 00:09:50:12
Unknown
And so I’m kind of curious, like, what kind of research was your mother like, operating on what kind of knowledge or community based understanding, was she implementing to kind of keep that level of health in your family? It’s a good question. You know, back then, I’m not sure there was a lot of research going on. And the people that were working, researching things on health were probably like, not very accepted in the community.
00:09:50:14 – 00:10:12:16
Unknown
I would I would say that that’s the thing. she was a nurse, to and you should probably interview her at some point. because I don’t know really what made her be what she was. And I know, like, she has always emphasized the concept of her wanting to be the best parent to her children that she can be.
00:10:12:16 – 00:10:40:05
Unknown
And, My mom doesn’t work on, like, the conventional. Like, I need research to do things right. she is very. She very much works within the the our this concept of the model within you. Right. That spiritual power that is within you that you are made from. And so she is me. She might have seen something or read something or followed a few people.
00:10:40:05 – 00:11:15:08
Unknown
I know she has. Some people like Doctor Shockley was one of them, I think. But some people that she really, you know, liked what they said. And, I probably, you know, this is something that you should probably talk to her about, but knowing what I know about her now is she probably, saw that it worked for her and, you know, wanted to incorporate it because she went to school for it, you know, nursing, which she thought was about health, but nursing actually became like more about the illness.
00:11:15:10 – 00:11:37:22
Unknown
And so she kept looking and researching for understanding of health. And I think that has been instilled in my education for, you know, for my life now and even in the future. And, I do believe that, like that whole not eating sugar and, when I talk about sugar, you know, our cells in our body are, you know, our body metabolism.
00:11:38:01 – 00:12:15:13
Unknown
We all it it breaks down to sugar. So I’m not talking about the chemical form of sugar. I’m talking about like, refined sugars and things like that. Because I love fruits and I would eat fruits. And I loved, you know, different. I can’t eat honey like, I would like honey. We had honey, we’d have maple sirup and, and it wasn’t, and I, I know now that there’s research behind understanding, you know, foods that feed you, that actually feed you and that are not, like, drug addicted drugs, you know, things like that.
00:12:15:13 – 00:12:48:21
Unknown
And not to say sugar is a drug, but it has addictive properties, you know, and, I’m so glad that I wasn’t addicted to it. when I was, when I got older, because now, you know, you gave me the salty. I rather get the salty than the sugary stuff. Right. and, you know, salty is not that great either, but you don’t even, those those things that were instilled in me as a young child has definitely benefited me, benefited me, and has shaped who I am now.
00:12:48:23 – 00:13:18:04
Unknown
And even the career that I chose. Yeah, for sure. And I really, I know we’ve talked in the past, about like, your spiritual beliefs and, you know, the energy within you. And I remember having a conversation with your mom, and she actually, asked me a question like, you know, if we are all children of God, what does that make you?
00:13:18:06 – 00:13:51:12
Unknown
And I remember I didn’t answer the question correctly. And and eventually she said, we’re all goddesses. and, you know, I think she was kind of talking to that inner power within us and that we’re connected, that we are all we’re all in community. and so I think it’s really lovely that, you know, she created that community of where you’re learning from community, and that, you know, it’s not disconnected from, you know, your own spirituality.
00:13:51:12 – 00:14:28:11
Unknown
And everybody brings what they have. Right? So you are learning things that the people around you knew how to do. and so I’m wondering, like, how did your education change after preschool? Like what did elementary middle school, high school look like? Yeah. so I had a lot of trauma centered around on my education. like my elementary school, I did it in a way that people, like, wanted me to read standard.
00:14:28:11 – 00:14:56:19
Unknown
And so I went to these classes that were there not like they were reading is like a reading extra class. And it wasn’t like you’re in special ed. It’s what we called it. Or you were in the gifted program, but you were just you were just learning differently, right? And I think, who knows if that was my ability to read, was affected by the preschool that I went to.
00:14:56:20 – 00:15:24:16
Unknown
But, I think in elementary, I really started understanding that as I was more in high school, they started understanding that were really only judged on like 5 or 6 specific things in education and the specific things are not necessarily like although they are useful in life, they’re not necessarily essential for you to live and for you to be successful.
00:15:24:18 – 00:15:47:20
Unknown
And I think, you know, the other day I was like figuring out, conversions for, you know, measurement units, right? Ounces, milliliters as in that, cups and things like that. And I think, you know, creating those formulas were super essential from what I learned from school and things like that, so that I could do it faster.
00:15:47:22 – 00:16:32:19
Unknown
But, so I guess what I’m trying to say is that, in school, I was I had to learn that and judged by certain aspects of life and not just the whole. Right. And, that’s also like the prediction of success. Right? So if you are good at these whatever aspects, I mean, I’m not an educator, like in the formal sense, so I don’t really know, like what are the main things, but I know math, English, science, what history?
00:16:32:21 – 00:17:20:18
Unknown
What else? I don’t even know. physical education, art. Is that even a thing nowadays? Physical education and art. I feel like there they’re an added education that. But anyways, like those types of things. I think those aspects were not basically they were not my, I did not feel like I could, go back. So I had to learn the system of education and really understand that those things that were being that I was being judged on, or just separate things that were not even like they weren’t even integrated, like they were like so separate.
00:17:20:18 – 00:17:59:07
Unknown
And in life everything is integrated. Everything you know, and everything has a purpose. And, you know, I didn’t learn that in school. You know, that in that way. I probably learned it in my elementary and and not all of my, so I started with understanding that life has this interconnectedness right. In preschool. It was like I wasn’t learning about math when I was at the Rose, farm, but I was learning about how to measure, you know, how much fertilizer to put in the roses and when to do that.
00:17:59:07 – 00:18:22:14
Unknown
Right. And that was all math. And so I think when I went to school, it was all about like learning about math. Right? So it’s like it’s just like a top down approach, bottom up approach to me, that kind of concept. And so I had to learn to switch that and learning the process of switching that, it was to me very essential.
00:18:22:16 – 00:18:52:23
Unknown
If that’s the critical thinking, that’s understanding your environment and who you are in that environment. Right. And so I did learn that in school. Like if I can be a certain person in school versus a certain person outside of school or a certain person, whatever, and my skills are valued in school in certain ways. My other skills are valued in dance or in gymnastics or in, you know, whatever things I got going on.
00:18:52:23 – 00:19:15:23
Unknown
Cherish your friends, outside of the neighborhood. You know, those skills are valued differently, right? So when I was young, I was like, really? I was like a scientist, you know? I wanted to break things down. I wanted to like, I was the one playing in the dirt and seeing, like, all the different minerals in the dirt. And I would, like, get beautiful dresses out on Sunday and I’d be, like, rolling in the dirt.
00:19:16:02 – 00:19:39:16
Unknown
I’d come out all like, muddy and, you know, Hawaii with the red dirt. It’s not like the greatest to get out of a beautiful dress. So I never really I had nice clothes, but my I always had a stain on them in some certain way. red dirt wise. And, you know, even, like in college, I took ceramics and got really good at ceramics.
00:19:39:16 – 00:20:10:10
Unknown
And I kept going back, you know, I started young in the dirt and I’m still playing in the dirt and, and even as an adult, you know, that thing, you know, kind of goes by and learning about being a soil farmer, right? So, I’m basically farming dirt now, so. Yeah. No, that’s right. Because you, live in which I think we’ll talk about in a little bit, but that’s amazing.
00:20:10:12 – 00:20:37:19
Unknown
I okay, so as you are talking, I think what you said is very important that like school sort of compartmentalize is all of these skills and they like it’s very contrived situations. Right? They take the math out of something that is real world. Right. So you like doing measurements, and measuring the fertilizer on the rose farm, like, that’s real life application of math.
00:20:38:00 – 00:20:52:13
Unknown
Whereas in school you’re just working on the math skills so that in the event that you are in a situation like being on the Rose farm, you know how to do it. but I’ve found that.
00:20:52:15 – 00:21:28:05
Unknown
That’s not always the case for some people. and it sounds like you are able to perform this part that you are expected to perform in school and still be able to practice who you were, in all the different areas of your life. and I’m wondering like, when you, like, go back to, you know, being in school, you said that you, have a lot of trauma around this, and I was wondering, like, are you able to articulate what that trauma is?
00:21:28:05 – 00:21:59:11
Unknown
Now, looking back? yeah. I mean, I think I just learned a different way and things are not presented to me in education when I was young, you know, in a way that I resonated with when I was learning. Right? So I went from a structured learning system to a different learning system that was totally opposite. Right. And so I see so I feel like the trauma was that I felt different always.
00:21:59:11 – 00:22:31:02
Unknown
I always felt different when learning. And, and I thought, and I have a theory actually, about people who get highly educated in the conventional sense, you know, they’re like, we’re like the dumbest people. And we’re like the ones that like, just stick it through because we had to try so hard when we’re young to be accepted as a student, though, you kept seeking that that being able to be that student and proving to ourselves or proving to others that we can be that student.
00:22:31:04 – 00:23:04:09
Unknown
And so we go for a further, you know, we go through, further torture of the education system to, and I’m saying this because I’ve been through this. Right. You know, the way my experience was, is, you know, not that I’m saying education was not worth it because I learned a lot in education. Right. Obviously, the doctor of occupational therapy and, you know, I needed, you know, the little parts in order for me to be able to practice.
00:23:04:11 – 00:23:28:16
Unknown
And, I needed to know the theory behind things and how to find how to find, research and how to determine what is good research and what is good for me. and I think and good for the people that I serve, too. It’s not just for me, but really good for the practice that I have. I needed to learn that.
00:23:28:16 – 00:24:04:12
Unknown
And I learned that in education, like in formal education. but I’m now also learning that one education never stops. Right? you have to always be educated because things Katlin something to the fullest. Even if you are an expert, it’s just not possible. You know, there’s always more to learn in whatever you decide to study. but the other part of it is that, like, the learning is different.
00:24:04:14 – 00:24:33:13
Unknown
you start getting very focused. You know, what you do, you know, to a point where you start, building the body of research around what you’re doing. Right? So you then come from a person’s that learning the little details and memorizing things to a person that has license to practice. So a person that is making the knowledge around and innovating the practice.
00:24:33:15 – 00:25:04:22
Unknown
and I do see that process, and I feel that formal education is a good way to in the higher level, education is a good way, to do that. But that’s the only way I’ve learned. Right. So but I’m starting to realize that. I can’t I probably could be in the same place that I am right now without the education that I went through right.
00:25:05:00 – 00:25:32:21
Unknown
yeah. So. And I’m not sure, you know, practice is that whole fight or beef between theory and practice, right? I’m not sure. I think we need when it comes down to it, I think we need both. And so I cannot say that formal education is not good, but it kind of just depends on the angle that you have.
00:25:32:21 – 00:26:05:18
Unknown
Right? If you have an end goal to have, career or to be a person that is an expert at certain things, then you need to know at all, right? You need to learn it all. At least I’d be willing to learn it all. but if your goal is to do something that requires just practical things like become a craftsman in a certain thing, I feel like even craftsman, like master craftsman, they know their field, too.
00:26:05:20 – 00:26:33:21
Unknown
They know the theories behind things, too. So I think you’re going to have to know it all then, too. So, the way you learn it might be different, but yeah, it’s not what I say about that. Yeah. Well, so I love what you just said about how, you know, everything that you’ve learned. I mean, yes, you are grateful for it and you have learned the things you have because you went through so much schooling.
00:26:33:23 – 00:27:06:13
Unknown
but that that, that conclusion you made is like, you know, I could have maybe forgone formal education and done it through practice or other ways of learning. And this is something that I’m really trying to unpack, with, like lots of people because I feel like, formal education, it kind of sets up a space and like a schedule and it, like, delivers to you in many ways.
00:27:06:15 – 00:27:37:09
Unknown
even though in other parts, like when you get to higher education and you get so specialized, you are doing your own research. But I think, you know, in the beginning years, somebody has decided this is what you need to know in order to be an expert. And so we’re going to deliver it to you, and we’re going to create a schedule, and we’re going to create a space and environment and like external pressures so that you inhale the things that we have deemed important for you to learn.
00:27:37:11 – 00:28:12:12
Unknown
but I know like, as you like, you know, went on to get your masters and then eventually your doctorate, right. Like, you were able to work on research that was, specific to your interests. Right? I mean, you were still learning things that I think other people had written about, but it was really like collecting information about, what practices were helping the people that you wanted to help, and you were sort of like, converging those ideas and and merging them with your own beliefs.
00:28:12:18 – 00:28:30:13
Unknown
So, I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about, that evolution of, like, going to college and then getting your master’s and then getting your doctorate and, and what that journey was like for you.
00:28:30:15 – 00:29:08:11
Unknown
it was a long, do you have a do you want me to, like, make it a smaller question? Yeah. Well, let me go general first and then. Okay, can pick things out if you need. so I think is about motivation and and intent and purpose. Right. So when I was going to school, in high school and in elementary and middle school and even my first few years of college, I, I wanted to be successful, but it wasn’t.
00:29:08:13 – 00:29:39:07
Unknown
I wanted to have an education, but it wasn’t like I didn’t find my purpose right in that. And so I was kind of it felt like in this, the this is the class that I was told to do, this is the major that I, you know, looked good in some paper, you know, or whatever looked good and whatever it might have been in the TV or, you know, it might have just been following the parents footsteps or I don’t know what it was.
00:29:39:07 – 00:30:05:21
Unknown
Right. it might have just I don’t know why I chose certain things. but it wasn’t until I, I actually, got paralyzed where I was, like, a life changing thing. I had to learn everything in my life that I had purpose in the what I wanted to do. And I actually found my life path. Right.
00:30:05:23 – 00:30:55:05
Unknown
So the life path is about connection and restoration and and education. Right. And so I, I found out my population, I found out, and I was searching for the population that I wanted to work with. I was searching for how I wanted to help people. I still am searching, really, but I kind of know where my path is and, and it really comes down to that whole concept of when you have this, this purpose and meaning, you all know when you are presented with choices, you will know what choices you need to meet and what choices and what things you need to do, to become what you need to be.
00:30:55:07 – 00:31:28:11
Unknown
And so, it wasn’t until my bachelor’s degree, the ending of my bachelor’s degree, my master’s degree, that I chose that I really wanted to do rehab. Right. And and rehab. You know, I tell myself that my bachelor’s degree in speech pathology was for me to learn how to communicate. And my master’s degree in, rehab counseling was for me to understand and know how to connect and make relationships.
00:31:28:13 – 00:31:54:16
Unknown
and my doctorate, you know, two years when all of that is done, what do we do? Right. So it’s for me to learn how to look, to find as to why we do. so when you find that purpose, I think you already have the tools that are within you, to know what you’re what you’re supposed to do.
00:31:54:18 – 00:32:22:18
Unknown
So what? My purpose was found. I knew that I had to go to certain schooling to do what it. But I wanted to do, I knew that I wanted to work in a certain area of my field. So I sought the person that I respected the most and wanted to work with him. And so I went to school, and you were around Derry when I was making the decision to get my daughter.
00:32:22:18 – 00:32:50:00
Unknown
It it was like first, let’s all, as a group, study for the G. What Derry was it? I don’t know, and that was the last thing on my mind. I was not really into that. I didn’t want to go to school, but I think that time in Korea, we are all presented with things that we did that choices that we need to make.
00:32:50:00 – 00:33:20:00
Unknown
Right? And, the choice based on the choice that I made to live in Korea, opened the door of different opportunities from staying in, in, Nevada, where I had a practice that opened up different doors. Right. And I cannot say one would be better or the other, but the one that I chose is definitely the one that has pushed me so hard that, I had to really find out who I was.
00:33:20:00 – 00:33:44:17
Unknown
Yeah. And now I knew I had to find out what my purpose was, and I feel like I found that, and I feel like that’s where the health and the, the peace and the joy come when I’m doing what I’m doing. And that’s why I can wake up so early in the morning and work all day and all night and, you know, deal with all the challenges with what I’m doing.
00:33:44:19 – 00:34:08:12
Unknown
that’s where that drive is. Right? So it’s that purpose that comes into play when you’re in education. But then beyond like that to beyond education, to where you now have to learn, like I have to learn stuff now, not in a formal setting, but sometimes, sometimes in a very formal ceremony. But I have to continue learning. Yeah.
00:34:08:13 – 00:34:40:07
Unknown
And it doesn’t stop there. And I think that endurance like exercise. Right. So I learned the endurance because nothing was harder than my daughter. It. And so that endurance was, definitely instilled in me. And then it also played a big role in me going to the Paralympics and being able to push through all of the challenges and the difficulties and the portions where you where I felt like I didn’t have any right.
00:34:40:07 – 00:35:17:13
Unknown
I had to push through all of that. Yeah. You know, okay. So as you talk about this experience of, you know, going through the Paralympics, I remember having a conversation with you, many years ago, right around when you were training for Paralympics, after you had, you know, won a few World Championships. and I asked you about fear, and challenges, and you said something that really blew my mind.
00:35:17:15 – 00:35:42:22
Unknown
you said fear is a luxury. You know, if you have time to be afraid, you have time to build your competence. and I’m not sure if you said it in those exact words. but I know for a fact that you said fear is a luxury. And I just remember, like, my mouth dropped and I was like, I think you’re right.
00:35:43:00 – 00:36:15:03
Unknown
Yeah. And I do believe that that is something. Oh, yeah. And, you know, that has stayed with me for a very long time. And I want to say that any time I am struggling and I feel fearful, I do hear your voice and, Yeah. And I also remember the rigor that you had for yourself. I remember, like, you waking up and making time to train you.
00:36:15:05 – 00:36:47:00
Unknown
I know that, like, accessibility in South Korea was terrible. It was abysmal. And despite that, you are like, getting the people that you needed to talk to, you know, you were still doing things. Yeah. Well, first of all, I want to back up a little bit about this whole fear thing. I think I’ve fell through some other parts of of what that means, you know, because as to at different points in life, you learn more about this and not that I never had fear.
00:36:47:05 – 00:37:10:20
Unknown
Right. But that fear cannot stay with me because I don’t have time for that. Right. But the other part of it is that the way when you start feeling that anxiety or that fear or whatever, whatever form it comes into, and recognizing if you’re in that fight or flight or freeze mode, being able to recognize what your signs are.
00:37:10:22 – 00:37:45:23
Unknown
the part of the thing that, like, I just learned this year, really, was that, you know, love is a power that was given to humans and us, to break down that, that fear. Right? And that love, is broken. It can break that power, can break down our fear through the faith that we have within ourselves, within our belief systems and all that stuff.
00:37:46:01 – 00:38:13:06
Unknown
And, you know, because it’s not that I’ve never had fear because I always have fear in certain things or anxiety or in that fight or flight mode, or freeze mode. But I know the signs. Yeah, that I go through when I start feeling that. And if I don’t acknowledge that and going through those things, that it’s just going to get deeper and I’m going to suppress it and I’m not going to be connected myself.
00:38:13:06 – 00:38:44:11
Unknown
Right. But I ignore myself. But those warning signs are signs for me to know how can employ the power of love within myself, because I’m not taking care of myself. Yeah. And not not necessarily. to say that fear is a luxury because it kind of is. But fear in itself is made for us to know the signs so that we can start taking care of ourselves.
00:38:44:13 – 00:39:07:11
Unknown
But fostering fear is a luxury. Yeah, that stuff that takes a long time, right? Because that festering fear is a luxury. Because that’s when you have time. You have time. If you if you got festering fear, you got time to fester. That fear, I guess, is right. so, you know, like I say, we start we’re learning all the time.
00:39:07:13 – 00:39:43:20
Unknown
And this has been a concept within my life that I feel that I always go back to understanding and and deepening my understanding of a fear of the power of love, of love itself. those are connection is another thing. that is like connection to our self. Connection to our a core belief systems. Connection to our community is connection to the land, to the water, to the to the to the they are eternities, skies and everything.
00:39:43:22 – 00:40:09:23
Unknown
So I, I’m learning more concepts as we go. Right. And, and I think that’s the essence of education, right? Is the fact that we have a seed that’s planted in us a concept. And I’m sure when I was young, there was something that I would just cry to my mommy so my mom could take care of it or my dad or whatever.
00:40:09:23 – 00:40:44:19
Unknown
Right. But, you know, as I get older, I have to learn to digest fear, right? and to and now as I’m getting older, it’s this concept of like, now I’m embracing the fear, recognizing those and those, signs of that and then employing my power, the power that was given to me by my belief of God. to dissipate those feelings so that I feel joy and peace inside.
00:40:44:21 – 00:41:08:18
Unknown
so. And then, you know, I can also help other people in, in those concepts, too. And I, I hope by me sharing this very personal experiences that I do help others because, like, I’m only here really to share what, what I go through and to help others to go through it. And then they can be their grit, their extraordinary right?
00:41:08:20 – 00:41:52:21
Unknown
Yeah. For sure. And I think that’s amazing. and so you blew my mind again here. in this explanation of, like, being able to digest fear, something that I learned in the first season of this podcast. is that our education systems are externally top down and they are control based. So what they do is they, set standards for everybody to learn the same curriculum so that eventually when we graduate, we go off and get jobs, that will fuel the economy.
00:41:52:23 – 00:42:57:03
Unknown
and so, education. Oh, please share. I don’t think our education system is to, filled the job market. I actually feel that it’s, to fuel the people who have jobs, who are teaching us. Right. So, Yeah, that’s my first concept of what you just said is like, you know, like. I feel that education is constantly trying to catch up the job market because the job market changes so much that, it’s impossible for big organization like the education system or a university to prepare students for jobs, you know, so they know the core values or the core concepts, but they don’t necessarily know what is needed to prepare someone for
00:42:57:05 – 00:43:31:17
Unknown
a career, a such a career. And so I feel like originally maybe that was set up so that you get educated, there must be some kind of signage so that you can enter the workforce in some sort of jobs or whatever. But, I think it has definitely gone in a different direction in many ways. And so I, you know, in college, once I, well, you know, had purpose and I were fulfilled myself, I was actually a very good student.
00:43:31:19 – 00:43:56:19
Unknown
I knew the system and, you know, how to get good grades and how to get. Yeah. And how to, you know, go around the system, right, to understand how to get that grade. And so that was like a game almost to me. But I was not prepared in school to be a good therapist. Okay. So I had to understand the people that I worked with.
00:43:56:21 – 00:44:29:01
Unknown
And I did not prepare. The thing that taught me that was being in amongst my community. Yeah, yeah. And pushing the limits in my community and learning from every individual that I worked for. and so my approach is not that I’m this doctor, that I have control. I’m not that right. I’m a person that’s learning with you.
00:44:29:01 – 00:45:00:02
Unknown
I’m on the journey with you and hopefully what I learn from you on your journey will enlighten me for a better journey for someone else. Okay? And I feel that, you know. It’s almost like these systems have gotten way big. Too big over time. And they’re focusing on other things that are like totally separate and running in separate directions.
00:45:00:04 – 00:45:38:01
Unknown
And I yeah. So education to me is great. Showing your endurance and learning. Now once you learn how to learn, or if you already have that interest to learn, then when you pick a career, you need to get integrated into your career field and with people who are doing and the mentorships and all that stuff, I feel that that is the more, important education to have, but you have to have the endurance to learn first, right?
00:45:38:06 – 00:46:15:17
Unknown
So you need that baseline. You need to be able to push yourself in learning those things and continually learning the things in your field. and the mentorship is what’s going to teach you how to be a good job person, right? A person to work in your field? Yeah, for sure. And I wanted to ask you about this because I know you were working with, like, skill building and, like, preparing, young people for having jobs in the market and training them and giving them, like, real life world job skills and things like that.
00:46:15:17 – 00:46:49:05
Unknown
And I was wondering, like, what did you learn, in, in, in that job and how do you see the, all of the things that you’ve learned working with very specific populations and how that’s going to help you find, you know, your community that you want to help going forward. right. I mean, I’m and who I am now is a accumulation of all the things, all of the experiences that I had.
00:46:49:06 – 00:47:26:05
Unknown
and I can’t say that my job is how I’m defining myself. Right. But I have already, like, I believe that I’ve already had the path. I already had certain natural skills. Right. But the path that I took was, you know, my individual path. And I was presented with choices that I knew that I needed to take certain choices.
00:47:26:07 – 00:47:52:07
Unknown
And that’s what making makes me unique. Right. And in the practitioner that I, And so in everything that I’ve done, as far as work goes and as far as education goes and even as far as my athletic career goes, has given me a better concept of who, and what I want to do in life. Right.
00:47:52:09 – 00:48:35:09
Unknown
And I think each job, and especially this, the last job, at any I and even with access serve, I realize that my, I thought my, my population was people with disabilities. I realize that now that my population is families around that and communities around that, and, and giving them the skill set to be able to, you know, find their path, right?
00:48:35:11 – 00:49:14:15
Unknown
Find their individual path so that they can live an extraordinary life in what they define that as. And I think that, I cannot say like one thing that I learned, right, because there’s so many things that I learned. But in general, I would say that each job that I’ve been through, taught me a little bit more about leadership, about, taking the role that I have, like a public figure, role, how to speak and feel comfortable in front of people.
00:49:14:17 – 00:49:43:19
Unknown
and even it’s not even jobs, right? It could just be experiences. I remember the first time I was videoed and I had to speak in front of someone, was with you. Really? And you made me get comfortable in front of a camera. And I wasn’t good at it. And I’m not sure I’m good at it now, but I definitely feel much more comfortable in doing this right.
00:49:43:19 – 00:50:11:22
Unknown
And, that’s that whole concept of being able to feel your authentic self. it really is about being able to share your authentic self to for me. Right? And I can be myself in front of the camera, behind closed doors, whatever. And I could still be myself and I think not having to choose, you know, in school I have to learn, I have to be a certain person to be able to get educated.
00:50:11:22 – 00:50:34:02
Unknown
Right. But I had to choose that anymore. I can be myself anywhere. I’m at. I can just be myself and my certain skills I have to like turn on in different settings, you know, like certain skills, like the researcher in me has to be a researcher when I’m speaking in front of a conference, you know, the the, playful person.
00:50:34:02 – 00:51:08:08
Unknown
You know, the comedian in me has to be the comedian when I’m connecting and, you know, having fun with my friends, right? Or, even, you know, with, you know, people that I work with, I have to bring that humor in. and, you know, the practitioner in me has to, always, you know, push myself to learn more and to read the next research, to write the next research, you know, and those are skills I have to do in that setting.
00:51:08:11 – 00:51:39:00
Unknown
Right. And so it’s not that I cannot be myself in different places, it’s just the skills that I have have to come out in certain settings. Yeah. And I, I think I did not learn that from education. I learned that I had to be such a thing and maybe, maybe that was the elementary concept, right? Is that I had to bring out the skills that are essential in that in school, and I had to bring out the skills that are essential in dancing.
00:51:39:00 – 00:52:01:01
Unknown
In dancing. Right. to bring this essential skills out or in gymnastics, I should say, I to build these certain skills out when I had to talk in front of church or, you know, things like that, or talk in front of a media or camera or whatever. And, but I’m starting to feel now way more comfortable.
00:52:01:01 – 00:52:50:06
Unknown
And I think living in Korea definitely helped me with the people that were around me. So I don’t think it was by chance that you guys are all around me in Korea, because that gave me the first glimpse of how I didn’t have to be scared to show who I was, which is a thing right? Absolutely. And, you know, I think like, the future generations, young people are so, so far ahead of us in terms of being able to be vulnerable and be all of who they are and be authentic and, you know, whenever I work with not necessarily in Korea, because it’s still a very performance based culture, but, you
00:52:50:06 – 00:53:18:09
Unknown
know, like in many from many places in the United States and other parts of the world, a lot of young people are more, it’s easier for them to be who they are. I think, you know, it’s just a personal opinion. I’m sorry. How do you say that? Because I, you know, now that I see all these, like, pressures of influencers, you know, the friends that I know who are influencers, it’s about a performance space, for sure.
00:53:18:11 – 00:53:46:17
Unknown
And now their performance is not just in school. It’s their entire life. That is very, very true. because they’re like putting their life on display. And so there’s no moment where they’re not being scrutinized. And, and with social media. So you’re absolutely right. So this is really tricky because, you know, we have teachers and we have experts and they’re not always the same people.
00:53:46:17 – 00:54:03:10
Unknown
Yeah. and so I’m curious like, do you think it’s possible to organize a mass schooling system in which.
00:54:03:12 – 00:54:36:13
Unknown
Experts can be the teachers? It’s like, okay, so for example, and maybe you can cut this into something or whatever, but, you know, like for me to have like the person, the practitioner that so the person that I went to college this is a great example really like the reason why I chose my doctorate degree was because of this one person that, worked in the community in community we have and I chose it because I loved his work, I love reading, his research, and I loved all of that.
00:54:36:15 – 00:55:18:02
Unknown
he did a lot of work around, justice, occupational justice. And I was like, I want to work with that person. I want him to teach me. Well. He like sitting in one of his classes was hardest thing to learn from him. He was definitely not the greatest teacher, but he was an amazing practitioner, right? So I had to take the things and have questions and all of that stuff because, you know, it’s hard to say that I would like the scientists to come in and teach me, but the scientists there at a level that it’s hard to come back down to where students are right to teach.
00:55:18:04 – 00:55:42:16
Unknown
It takes a very talented person to be a both a practitioner and an educator, very, very talented. And because education I think is just it’s so hard and I feel like this is the essence. And the questions that you’re asking is really this concept of like, can you be an educator and a practitioner?
00:55:42:18 – 00:56:13:15
Unknown
The same can you be that person? Can you do that? Because education, understanding and how a person is called cognitions work. It’s very and it’s very different. Right. Versus understanding how something works. Right. Or how my field works or whatever. Right. So it’s such a vast difference and a different skill if you become I cannot say that every expert is an educator that they know of, right?
00:56:13:17 – 00:56:41:06
Unknown
They might educate people by like what they write or what they do because the other person has great observation skills or great learning skills. But there comes a point where the student and the teacher has to feel like if this system were to work, if the system of having experts as your educator went to work, the student has to change.
00:56:41:08 – 00:57:21:05
Unknown
It is no longer a download of information. It is now a understanding of how to observe and how to understand a practitioner and learn from that. And then prove yourself. Prove yourself constantly prove yourself to become what that educator is has I mean, not saying or that practitioner is right because that practitioner is good as well as what he or she does a but there’s a reason why he’s not an educator.
00:57:21:07 – 00:57:51:07
Unknown
Okay. It’s very, very, so if the teacher is going to change, the student has to change. And I’m not saying that’s a hard thing, but that’s going to be a big thing to change, right? Because teachers and students, we could get x rays, but the student has to be different, like the student kind of be. And and maybe back in the old days where formal education was starting, that’s what it was like.
00:57:51:07 – 00:58:34:07
Unknown
Aristotle and all those people, they were the experts. And education was a bright byproduct of being an expert. Was. But I can tell you that it was not easy learning from a practitioner that I loved and wanted to be like, yeah. I don’t even know what grade I got, but probably, yeah, I probably didn’t get a B or anything, but, it yeah, I think I only got one B in my doctorate.
00:58:34:09 – 00:59:04:07
Unknown
B plus or a minus. I can’t remember which one, but that’s because I was fighting for access and that’s pass. And I had very little time to to focus on the education part more on the, me educating everyone apart. so what I would say about that big system changing it would be an amazing change, and it might be even going back in time, right.
00:59:04:09 – 00:59:27:16
Unknown
and the student will have to change. And I could tell you right now that there would be less students. because we’re not we can’t have pop experts cannot pop out student graduates fast. They’re not going to be able to do that. They’re just one person, right? Or a collective of a couple people. and they’re experts in their field.
00:59:27:18 – 00:59:51:16
Unknown
So, yeah, I mean, it’d be almost going backwards, but still forward to me, you know, I don’t know, because now with this education. So here’s the thing. What is the market need, right. We need a lot of people that can do like menial work. We need a few people that can like be leaders of those menial workers. And then not that it’s menial.
00:59:51:16 – 01:00:11:16
Unknown
I mean, any like, you know, stuff that you can program yourself, right? And you bring me over and over and or repetitive. Right. So there’s all these eight processor repetitive type of jobs. Right. that people like need to do. And then we need like leaders that can come out like round that up and like put it together.
01:00:11:22 – 01:00:34:01
Unknown
And then we have the people who are the innovators or like the ones or like the CEOs and this isn’t and the stuff, they’re innovators and they’re inspiring people to work for cause and this and that. And I feel that, The amount of education you get doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to be in either any one of these jobs.
01:00:34:03 – 01:01:01:18
Unknown
And I think the point is on this is that we kind of have to find a way if we’re going to change just the education system, because it does need changing. I think it little minor tune ups because I still want us to progress in ways, but it has to be connected to the job market or to the market, or the need of the community or the world or whatever, you know.
01:01:01:18 – 01:01:23:15
Unknown
And how do we connect? How how do we make that connection? Oh, I’m not I’m not the educator to solve that. You know, I just know that, you know, what I do is helping a little bit of finding your path so that you know, whoever else is going to be figuring out how to, like, create that connection between education systems and communities and world problems.
01:01:23:15 – 01:02:16:14
Unknown
Right. that is not my skill. And I’m wondering, like, as we know that all of these different patterns are changing, and that with every generation there’s like a new paradigm that we have to learn or unlearn, or integrate. And I’m wondering, as we prepare our young people for the future, if at all possible, what would you change about, the education systems, all of the programs that you had went through or any part of your learning journey, what would you change or adapt to make it more effective or more efficient in preparing our young people for life and not just jobs or, you know, whatever it is that society needs them
01:02:16:14 – 01:02:48:02
Unknown
to do, but also to be more integrated with who they are authentically. And, you were talking about that leadership piece, right? of giving our young people the agency to own their lives a lot sooner. than from when they graduate. Well, if I only had one thing, it would probably be bringing back learning in the home, in the family systems.
01:02:48:04 – 01:03:06:08
Unknown
because I feel that as we get further and further away from learning from our parents and our grandparents and our great grandparents, if we have the choice to be able to do that, I think that it.
01:03:06:10 – 01:03:38:11
Unknown
Like, that will, like, set you up for who you want to be or can be in your life. if we cannot get it in our homes, you know, the next best is to have, like, mentorships or, someone who values, you and your learning experience. integrate more of that, especially for the people. And I’m not saying don’t get rid of all the rote learning.
01:03:38:13 – 01:04:00:00
Unknown
Right? We have a lot of rote learning that needs to happen to understand all the names of the bones and the, you know, we need to know directions, we need to know math, and we need to know all of that stuff. but with the change of I could learn that from the best person in the world on YouTube, you know what I mean?
01:04:00:02 – 01:04:30:00
Unknown
And so I don’t think that I would, necessarily put more of that in schools, but I would learn the importance of being able to choose what information is good for your practice and what you do. and all the critical understanding of how to get knowledge and how to decipher if that knowledge is good. so that whole I guess I would be like.
01:04:30:02 – 01:05:00:05
Unknown
How to get that concept, like those critical thinking skills, I think only comes from people who have experience. Yeah. And, you know, I would love to see our educators that are not just trained to be educators, but are trained in what they need, what they’re doing. Right? So I don’t like seeing, you know, teachers who are math teachers, who are not mathematicians.
01:05:00:07 – 01:05:32:04
Unknown
I don’t like seeing science teachers who are science teachers that are not scientists. I don’t like seeing, you know, English teachers that are not writers and I don’t know what they do, speakers or whatever. I don’t know. English people do. I don’t even know if this stuff. But, you know, I don’t know, like, I feel like I would love to see the experts being the teachers and, how that can happen.
01:05:32:06 – 01:05:54:02
Unknown
That’s not that’s not my skill. I have no clue how that’s going to happen. But, you know, I think questioning those things and having, dialog around that is super important. And I love the work that you’re doing. And in doing that, because, you know, it does make us question. It does make us be aware of how we’re being educated.
01:05:54:02 – 01:06:17:18
Unknown
But and the process as we went through and how to change it for the future that’s coming. And I hope that that that is the beaches and everyone. Right? I don’t want it just to be the select people, but I hope that does reach others. so it can be changed because as everything changes, education has to be changing to.
01:06:17:20 – 01:06:26:17
Unknown
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.