Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Harshi—a designer, artist, and illustrator—about her earliest memories of attending a convent school in India, pursuing her curiosities, and learning what she wanted on her terms. We talk about the gender discrimination she experienced while working as an architect, the social and systemic expectations of women and their value in society, and what she wishes would change about the way we educate girls, and children in general, in the future.
Here is our edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:15 – 00:00:29:13
Unknown
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed as a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following. I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:29:15 – 00:01:01:01
Unknown
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale, to speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be, what it should be.
00:01:01:05 – 00:01:26:18
Unknown
When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Hershey, a designer, artist and illustrator, about her earliest memories of attending a convent school in India, pursuing her curiosities and learning what she wanted on her terms.
00:01:26:20 – 00:01:51:03
Unknown
We talk about the gender discrimination she experienced while working as an architect, the social and systemic expectations of women and their value in society and what she wishes would change about the way we educate girls and children in general in the future. Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:51:05 – 00:02:20:14
Unknown
So I was the youngest in the family. I have one daughter, so somehow, mostly I felt that they gave more attention to my brother than and they were also when I was growing up, I felt that they were constantly behind my brother. To study properly, I’d like to do well because he’s a guy and he might have to take care of this problem.
00:02:20:16 – 00:02:52:03
Unknown
But when it came to me, they gave me all the freedom and somehow they felt that I didn’t need that much attention. They never pushed me into anything or nothing like that. So I was a bit more free to choose what I wanted to do. And actually, I studied in the same school from my kindergarten till my 12th grade.
00:02:52:05 – 00:03:20:18
Unknown
So till I was about to go to college, I all my high school, everything was in the same school. And it was a girls school. And I had a convent education and what only English I am able to speak know is just because of them and what I learned in my school. So even as a kid, I remember that my teachers, they’re like very, very kind.
00:03:20:20 – 00:03:56:12
Unknown
And they used to teach us like one of my teacher from my kindergarten. I remember she used to like, hold our hands and, you know, show how to write for us. And we started a little bit as in India, you should we start out writing and the reading early. So what they do is they will hold our hands and teach us how to write and they always constantly looked after us in any tiny way they could.
00:03:56:14 – 00:04:27:02
Unknown
And so I always felt that as a child, I was always taken care of. I didn’t have to think, what should I do or what next? I always felt that they knew what I should be doing or they would guide me if they felt that I am skillful in certain things, they might guide me. So I always felt that with my school and with my parents, Like I said, they never interfered too much in what I wanted to do.
00:04:27:07 – 00:04:57:14
Unknown
They left me alone. And but after, like when I was like seven or eight, probably the only thing that pushed me was after school. They made me go into other activities, like painting or dancing, or they would just find something new and they’d be like, How should I do you want to try? You can just go and, you know, give it a try, maybe.
00:04:57:16 – 00:05:20:22
Unknown
So I remember that in my childhood, every year during my summer holidays and in the evenings I used to study or like learn some new thing. So one year it would be like learning keyboard, another year it would be like dance. And they told me that some point of you figured out that this is what you want to do.
00:05:20:22 – 00:05:49:21
Unknown
Maybe it was you. So I remember that most of my school during my school days, every year it will be something new that I will keep trying. So that’s what I remember about my time. Wow. Yeah, that’s that’s really awesome. I from going to school, the same school from when you were kindergarten to 12th grade. That’s I haven’t heard that one before.
00:05:49:23 – 00:06:28:18
Unknown
Is that typical of maybe the the I guess city or province or area that you grew up in for children to do that or was that unique to your situation? I think it was just unique to my situation because I’ve seen that many parents, if they are working with government organizations or if they are working with some corporates, they will be constantly asked to move from one city to another, Whereas so my parents were into business and they had they are based in the city that I am in.
00:06:28:19 – 00:07:15:04
Unknown
So they didn’t have the need to move and then they sort of chose the school for me. When I was a young kid, they had already decided that it’s an English convent. The education is good, it’s a girls school. So in terms of safety and everything, it’s taken care of and language wise, that would be helpful. And my mom also told me that when she was in college, she did her studies in, her mother done sort of She was my my mother is different from whatever language we speak in the city.
00:07:15:06 – 00:07:43:09
Unknown
So when she was going for her college, she realized that she was in the same community or set of people. So she never picked up the city’s language that well or or English for that matter. But she noticed that girls are students from the school that I studied in. We’re very good with English and good with the local language asset.
00:07:43:11 – 00:08:17:06
Unknown
So that time until she decided that if she ever has a girl, she is going to put that girl in that particular school. So since education was good, we never had the need to change anywhere. And even the curriculum of the school was not very hectic. So like I said, every evening I was free to pursue whatever I wanted and that sort of gave me the freedom that to experiment with new things.
00:08:17:08 – 00:08:42:00
Unknown
So basically that sort of gave them the confidence that the school can be the one that she stays in. And even for me, I never felt anything odd because I was in the same school. And I did notice that there were a few other people who were in the same school for a long time. So I felt okay, yeah, that was going to be my next question.
00:08:42:00 – 00:09:04:14
Unknown
But before I get to that, so when you say it’s a convent education, so you didn’t actually see your parents every night, right? You was it kind of a boarding school situation? No, no, no, no, no. It is a convent school, but it was a baseball. I could just go in the morning and come back in the evening.
00:09:04:16 – 00:09:34:19
Unknown
They did offer residential services for a few students from other cities, but since I lived in the same city, it was Major Delhi. okay. A school that catered to the local kids. okay. Got it. And I was curious about the kind of scheduling you said during the evenings you were free to do what you wanted to do.
00:09:34:19 – 00:10:05:00
Unknown
And I’m curious. That’s very interesting to me, because at least in the United States where I grew up, mostly after school, there’s like homework and things like that, but mostly children or students are free to do what they would like to do. And it’s not really I mean, they do have to do homework and and things like that.
00:10:05:06 – 00:10:40:16
Unknown
But I’m curious what the expectation was at your school or maybe in the country, in India where you grew up. Like, do most students not have, you know, a choice of what they can do after school, during the day or. Yeah, I was curious about that a little bit. And I think it’s it’s each individual that I mean, like we didn’t have a lot of homework.
00:10:40:18 – 00:11:07:18
Unknown
Yeah. But when I think about it I just, I think I was more of a night owl. So what I used to do was I’ll come back from school around five, 530, and then I would have some snacks or something fresh and then I would go out for my classes, whatever it is, like for a couple of hours and then come back, have my dinner and then I would start my homework.
00:11:07:20 – 00:11:38:08
Unknown
So sometimes I even finished my homework within an hour. Sometimes if it’s more than that, I would just do it in the next day, the next morning before my class. So that’s how I used to work. But I. Yeah, Yeah. So then you had so the hours of school was like you go in the morning and then you come home after noon and then you have more classes.
00:11:38:08 – 00:12:15:21
Unknown
Do you go to the same school and then come back? No, at school, my school was like three kilometers away from my house and we were not allowed to go out during the lunch house. So typically our school timing used to be like 830, 845 till 430. But usually I’ll end up chatting with my friends or I play like badminton or basketball or something, and then I will leave the school up.
00:12:15:23 – 00:12:42:20
Unknown
So when I was maybe like 12, ten years old or 12 years old, I used to take the bus or an Autorickshaw took it. But after like 1213 I used to ride my bike, so it gave me more flexibility in the hands when I went back home. So I used to stay back for a game and then go back home.
00:12:42:22 – 00:13:15:02
Unknown
I see. So once you come back home and you said you took classes, what kind of classes were they? So India has a lot of languages, so I already told that my mother tongue is different from the language that the city or the state speaks. And we also have a predominant language that is spoken in India. So I wanted to learn that as well.
00:13:15:04 – 00:13:45:05
Unknown
So they have like seven or eight levels of exams. So I used to take up those classes. That’s I used to learn that language as well. So it was outside my curriculum from school, like even in my school they offered it. But it’s like if you take that language, you don’t get to learn the city’s language. So it was either this or that.
00:13:45:07 – 00:14:10:22
Unknown
So then I thought, okay, you know, I mean, when I was young, this decision was made. So I think my parents thought that, okay, it’s better for me to learn the local language. And then since there were classes available separately to learn the other language, they I think they thought that would be the best option. And later, I also took interest and started learning the other language.
00:14:11:00 – 00:14:51:03
Unknown
So that was one of the classes that I did. So again, it was always like, I will learn something, I will write the exam, take a break. Then I would be learning something else. So I used to play keyboard. I used to learn go for keyboard classes. Then I did learn to draw. I made. I was very young when that happened, but unfortunately the teacher who was teaching me at during that time, I think I was like four or five years old and he was like very harsh.
00:14:51:05 – 00:15:11:16
Unknown
I think he asked me to draw Apple or Lotus or something like that, and I didn’t know how to draw it. So my brother used to accompany accompany me. He was also a young kid, so I was like, Brother, I don’t know how to draw this. And he was like, You know what? You just draw whatever, you know.
00:15:11:18 – 00:15:33:21
Unknown
So I drew, I think whatever he asked, I think I drew an apple because that’s what I knew. And he came and yelled at me because I drew something else. And my parents saw that and they decided, okay, this girl should not go to those that class hereafter. So after that, they didn’t send me to any drawing class.
00:15:33:23 – 00:16:07:12
Unknown
But it was very unfortunate because I think I was good with my hands and it was I didn’t get that space to explore it at that young age. So luckily my school had these art classes, so once a week they had art class, music class and all this physical training. It was all very once a week. So whatever art or drawings they picked up is from those beats.
00:16:07:14 – 00:16:46:23
Unknown
Yeah. So I know that you went into sort of like the visual arts, right? You do graphic design, user experience, design, illustration, so like your skill sets, very visual. Did when you took those classes when you were younger, were you able to choose that or was that something that your parents chose for you, or were those the only classes that were available?
00:16:47:01 – 00:17:22:19
Unknown
I think like I said, in my school, equal importance was given to art. Music and everything else. So I don’t think I sort of realized what I was capable until maybe my 10th grade where I had to do my biology record or something, where I had to draw hard that, you know, maybe liberal amoeba or whatever. So when you when I drew that, I sort of realized that, I draw well.
00:17:22:21 – 00:17:54:18
Unknown
So I used to be very proud when I did that. And I used to go show my parents and they’d be like, yeah, you draw a little well and then up and then. And then what happened was I went into art, not training for my architecture program. Initially, I actually wanted to do fashion design, but my parents were a bit conservative and my brother had a friend of his involved in fashion design or something.
00:17:54:18 – 00:18:28:00
Unknown
And she particularly told, you know, the culture was not that great, so maybe it would be better for her to do architecture. And in India it generally happens like somebody sees something and your parents get dressed and they would be like, No, do this instead of that. And especially for girl child, most of them do not care about what kind of education the girl has because yeah, they feel that a girl will anyway get mothers.
00:18:28:01 – 00:19:00:06
Unknown
So it doesn’t matter what she studies. Anyway, after marriage, she’s she has to take care of the kids. So that attitude is that a bit. So I was bit stressed. But when I read about architecture program I sort of realized that it has a multi sort of level design approach. So I could become a fashion designer or I could I could become a furniture designer or a product designer.
00:19:00:06 – 00:19:25:14
Unknown
Doesn’t matter like I will get to learn the principles of the site. So I sort of agreed. I said, okay, fine, I will do architecture instead. So before going into that, apparently that was all there was a inference test that you are supposed to clear. And my patterns were very skeptical that I didn’t know drawing basics or anything.
00:19:25:14 – 00:19:44:06
Unknown
So they sent me to a coaching center. So when I went there, he was an architect and the he asked me to draw like a flower with I was like flowers of design. Fine. I just drew flowers. And what I knew, how I felt. I drew and came back in 5 minutes and he was like, he looked at me.
00:19:44:06 – 00:20:02:06
Unknown
I’m like, You cancel quickly. Do you want an eraser? So I said, No, I’m done this like 5 minutes and you’re done. I said, Yes, 5 minutes, and then no, I mean, I’ve drawn what do I know? So I don’t think I have anything to add more than that. So he had just given me a Benson and then a pencil.
00:20:02:08 – 00:20:25:03
Unknown
So I quickly drew and then he saw the sketch and he’s like, you’re able to visualize a flower pot and you even made it into a 3D effect. Good. I think you can you can visually think about objects that is that maybe I don’t know if you are like the teacher. Also, you must know. I have no idea.
00:20:25:05 – 00:20:56:17
Unknown
So he was asking me if I’ve done any art training and stuff like that. Then I said no, it was just what it was. School basics, to be exact. But over there I learned a lot of basics in drawing, which sort of gave me the confidence to draw and visualize. So basically that’s where I got my confidence. So when I went to do my architecture program in my first semester, there were so many students who didn’t know what the perspective was.
00:20:56:18 – 00:21:18:20
Unknown
I tiny things. They wouldn’t know what a symmetry is, a little things like that. And I used to go and teach them. I’d be like, you know, this is what you should do, and this is how that view comes. And so I did that almost for a semester. I sort of liked it and I realized that, okay, I have very good hand skills.
00:21:18:22 – 00:21:48:22
Unknown
So that’s when I realized actually, yes. And so that was in college. That was in college. I see. Okay. So you kind of did what was offered during your compulsory education and you didn’t really focus on art until a lot later when you went to college for architecture. What you said a little while ago is still stuck in my head.
00:21:49:00 – 00:22:22:06
Unknown
You said that, you know, parents don’t really pay a lot of attention to what girls study because they’re just going to get married anyway. That’s fascinating to me. And I’m curious about like that mentality and how is that sort of the the thought in in in the culture? Is it in in the particular state that you grew up in?
00:22:22:12 – 00:22:49:20
Unknown
Was it just in your home or you know, the people around you? I’m curious about where that kind of comes from and what you think about it. I think in India that are always laughing yours because there are different religion that is the same community that is of Castiel and then that is a lot of gender discrimination.
00:22:49:22 – 00:23:26:03
Unknown
So and also social and economic status. Then you because of all these layers, what happens is the most affected is the women are transgenders are, you know, so these are the people who get affected usually and I have personally seen that. I’ve seen both when the patterns are right and when the patterns are poor. In both cases, what happens is the rich patterns are like, finish some girls.
00:23:26:03 – 00:24:00:21
Unknown
That is like quick and easy to do and then get married, have kids or travel or do whatever they want. And then again, when they are poor, they can’t do more because of their economic problems. So what they do is do something that’s cheaper, whatever education is cheaper and quick to try to finish that and get married, you know, so that you become somebody else problem, not me.
00:24:00:23 – 00:24:42:08
Unknown
So I see that in all the cases. And of course this is what I’m seeing is like maybe like what was happening, maybe it’s changing now. But how much is changing is a matter of, you know, that is something that’s questionable. Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. And that’s really interesting that the words you used was so that you can become somebody else’s problem, not mine.
00:24:42:10 – 00:25:23:19
Unknown
That’s it’s very stark. And I think like, yeah, that must be very challenging, I think to navigate in the culture and across those different layers. And I’m curious like what kind of expectations did your parents have for you and how did you navigate that? yes. So my case was a bit different. I sort of somehow always fought for what I wanted, so I think I was a bit of a headache for them.
00:25:23:21 – 00:25:59:22
Unknown
So usually you’re women usually get married at the age of 22, 23 or I think 26 since like the max. And after that, people are going to look at you as you don’t have a future. That’s how they do to when you go for parties or functions or any family get together. That’s how they behave usually. So my parents, they somehow let me touch wood.
00:26:00:00 – 00:26:33:19
Unknown
When I was studying, they were a bit more minded till my 25th age. They didn’t bother me. I mean, they did ask me if they can look for alliances proportions, because arranged marriages are still very common in India and they had asked me and they had asked me the same question when I was 23 and I was doing my thesis.
00:26:33:21 – 00:27:04:18
Unknown
I got very annoyed. I was in a different city when I was doing my thesis. I got really annoyed and I just packed my bags and came home. I was like, See, I’ve just left all my work and I’ve come here so that you clearly understand what I want. I want to finish study, I want to work, I want to be on my own for some time, be independent and figure out what I want to do with my life and then get married.
00:27:04:20 – 00:27:25:19
Unknown
I And then they were a bit shocked because they probably didn’t expect that from me. And then they were like, Well, we’ve given you so much freedom. You were allowed to choose what you want. I was like, No, you did make me change what I wanted to study. Like I didn’t want to fashion the same. But you wanted me to do architecture.
00:27:25:21 – 00:27:49:20
Unknown
Then they were like, okay, but, but we have let you, you know, become a graduate. You are living in a different city. But this my patterns, they all studied in the same city over here, and they allowed me to travel to a different state and be in a different city, stay there and study for like five years. So they were like, We’ve allowed you to do whatever you want.
00:27:49:20 – 00:28:12:00
Unknown
And so is this how like, you show your gratitude? I said, No, no, please don’t do all this drama with me. I want to work. I think, you know, do respect. And you always been like this broad minded. You always let me see what I want. So you need to take some time and let me do my work.
00:28:12:02 – 00:28:43:20
Unknown
If you want to continue doing your proposal, such or whatever, but don’t disturb me for another couple of years and I said that and then I think it was hard on them. And I, like you, also asked me what was my point of view about all these things that that is to say earlier that I think as a kid I used to be like, what can they do?
00:28:43:22 – 00:29:18:06
Unknown
I mean, that’s how the system is. So simply they have to fight all of these things. It becomes like a day for them. So to they they are like, I mean, I pity them, they can’t do much. But I think after a point I sort of understood that it’s a decision that each person can take. And if my parents was support do, probably my life would be better if I was supportive.
00:29:18:08 – 00:29:43:23
Unknown
Probably my next invasion of kids like, you know, future generations would be better. So I think that there needs to be a stop somewhere like, you know, somebody has to get hurt for the system to break. So I was like, even though I felt bad about what I told my bad. And then I realized that I had to do it, which is why I did it.
00:29:44:01 – 00:30:28:05
Unknown
That’s a really amazing insight that, you know, you have to be supported in order to not pass on the limited opportunities to the next generation. Or you need to break the system for it to sort of be reinvigorated for you to have more freedom. That’s that’s a very interesting insight. And I’m wondering when you had that insight, is that something that you realized at that time, before that, where do you think that perspective came from?
00:30:28:07 – 00:30:58:08
Unknown
I think when I was independent and when the whole this whole scenario happened, I realize that there were a few other people who were not going through this. They were still continuing with their studies or, you know, they were quite they were working or they were moving ahead with their, you know, whatever genes they had. So I so it got me thinking, why am I having these problems?
00:30:58:10 – 00:31:31:05
Unknown
That’s when I realized that my grandmom studies like first grade or second grade, and she was married way too young. I mean, she got married when she was 13. I guess so. But she was a she was a bookworm and out of her own influence. She used to read a lot of books. And when my mom learned all her sisters, elder sisters stopped studying when they were in eighth grade.
00:31:31:07 – 00:32:10:22
Unknown
But she was like very adamant that she has to finish her bachelor’s. And, you know, she got to do her graduation degree when she was there again. Then I realized that every generation this has happened in my family. When I looked at the people who had who are able to pursue their dreams, I realized that, even their grandparents were graduates, their parents were graduates and also graduates.
00:32:11:00 – 00:32:46:13
Unknown
So when it came to their daughters or sons, they were they were a bit more open and they let them pursue whatever they want. So, I mean, it’s that that education of what a work because you get educated, you get a job, you get financial independence. They were able to let their kids do what they want. So I realize that for me, if I’m the same to these people and stuff, I feel that I will not be able to pursue my dream or like I wouldn’t know what or where I should be going.
00:32:46:15 – 00:33:18:20
Unknown
So I think after this, when I was 25, 26, I had this conversation with my parents and then I went back to doing whatever, you know, work or whatever I was doing. I think that is. Then slowly I started realizing these are the facts. And I know the thing was I was I had so much pressure when I was 26 to get married and they were not finding the right matches.
00:33:18:20 – 00:34:08:12
Unknown
Even they were not happy with the unfairness of the proposals that came in because few of them were like, after marriage, she should not go for work. Then there were a few people who were like, She should move to us Indian work here. But it would be a smaller city or a village where I can’t practice. So it it all these things sort of made me realize that, okay, if I don’t take control, I don’t know where this important, but I and I was also having a bit of I was meeting people then I did meet people then and that’s when I sort of realized that men have different thoughts.
00:34:08:14 – 00:34:39:00
Unknown
Not all of them will give you the equal or the space of freedom. So some people would be like, you look beautiful, you know, all those things. But in those days they will have an agenda, they’ll like, or the style should be my wife and take care of me or poop for me or this or that. So I realized that very few people have the mindset that we are equal partners and we need to figure out a future together.
00:34:39:02 – 00:35:14:00
Unknown
So that thinking I realized that was very less in men, Indian men. So I was it got me thinking, okay, if I agree for a great marriage, that is something I will not be able to figure out. So I was telling all these things to my parents and they were like, okay, now you’re bringing in something else which were not capable of handling because they were like, I mean, my mom got married when my grandmom said, okay, this is the day I think you will be living with him happy, get married.
00:35:14:02 – 00:35:41:23
Unknown
And all this stuff doesn’t led to sort of understanding that he’s a good guy and little dog nearby or something like. So they got married. They didn’t have any expectations. But for me, slowly, step by step by step, whatever has happened in my life at that point of time made me realize that if I don’t have a partner full support, then I’m going to suffer all my life.
00:35:42:01 – 00:36:27:17
Unknown
So I need to be very particular. So I think that’s then I sort of understand how these systems work and how the whole system want the women to be at home. Probably. Yeah, for sure. And so I guess I want to know, like what kind of I know you’re married now or you have a partner. And so I’m curious like how you naturally came to, you know, choosing your partner And were you, were you able to, you know, like appease your parents when they needed to be a.
00:36:27:17 – 00:37:09:07
Unknown
PS How did you go about finding your partner? The thing was, so I met few other people. I realized that being nice is dangerous. I mean, you sure you’re nice to say? I mean, not being nice. So it’s I felt that that showing your niceness alone, it doesn’t help, because what happens is that person will think you’re always nice, and that would work sort of like put too much on you because they don’t get to see who you are.
00:37:09:09 – 00:37:44:02
Unknown
So after meeting you people, I realized that the only way I can meet my partners or figure out who that person is brings out your worst or whatever, and if that person is able to survive didn’t help me. He’s that. I think that’s brilliant, but I don’t think it is. It works very well. Like each person has their own this thing.
00:37:44:02 – 00:38:11:06
Unknown
But no, that I was always like showing my bad side or the worst side or brought in too much trauma. Now we are untying those knots together of what I have too. So I think you need to find a balance. But yeah. So you met your partner on your own. Your parents had nothing to do with that arrangement.
00:38:11:08 – 00:39:04:10
Unknown
So I’m kind of curious. Like you said, you have this strong sense of I need to learn things for myself or continue on the path that I have been on before deciding to like, redirect or to quit. And I’m curious, was that always there from the start, or when do you think that spirit began to emerge? I think for me it was not a linear process because I remember as a school kid or everybody used to go to all these students because 10th and 12th grade is very important in India and they are always behind marks.
00:39:04:10 – 00:39:34:05
Unknown
So everybody goes to U.S. after school. That is a routine. But for me, I decided that I’m listening to this class once already in school. I don’t want to go through that again. I just wanted to study in my own time. I wouldn’t go for any. That was a very strong, strong stand that I took when I was like 16 years old, because that is not very common.
00:39:34:06 – 00:40:00:16
Unknown
I think my school, when I was studying just the 12th grade, there were like pools of people and I was the one, the one girl student who didn’t go for any decisions. So that is the proportion that used to go to do things. So when I told that to my parents, never like how come you very strong headed about this and you’re not going for details because they were scared.
00:40:00:18 – 00:40:27:18
Unknown
If you don’t get to you, you will not go into a good institution and all that. I was like, No, I feel that I don’t want to go. I feel like I am capable of studying. I wouldn’t go. And then I did something even crazier in my I mean, here for the 10th grade, they start preparing in their ninth grade holidays.
00:40:27:20 – 00:41:02:23
Unknown
That’s how it is. Like all the tuition stopped in the ninth grade. But for me, in the ninth grade, I, I was going for cricket coaching in the summer and then during my 10th grade I was going for typewriting classes to learn, you know, type thing. So I always had to do something else because I felt that I had a bit of focus of concentration at one point of time and that one is that much of content I will be able to consume.
00:41:03:05 – 00:41:34:19
Unknown
So when I study really for a while, even for an hour or something that much, my brain would work so I can study more than that. Then y you simply co-productions and waste my thing. So I was very strong about those views. So when I had the next step, then I had to go to my college. Even though they suggested what program supposed to take, I was like, I need to do my architecture degree, you know, because it did, because it would give me exposure.
00:41:34:21 – 00:41:55:05
Unknown
So I was very clear about that. So I was like, I gave them to cities and I was like, I’m either going to study here or there. And so confident that I got obligated and one day from these two colleges, my parents are like, What if you don’t get into any of these two colleges, then you will just lose a year.
00:41:55:07 – 00:42:25:03
Unknown
And I was like this I don’t get into those two colleges. I will go to an arts program or something. That’s what it is available. Then I’ll just go with you. Not a problem, because I was very confident that I would get the best. So then when I went there again, the next thing happened. Are you going to stay in the women’s hostel or are you going to live, you know, paying guests or a place where you’re more independent?
00:42:25:05 – 00:42:55:21
Unknown
And I said, I don’t want to be in the hostel. I was doing the thing which was right. I had to either walk or take take a bus. It was in a different state where they spoke the language and I was like, No, it’s okay. I will just visit. Okay. And then one point What happened? Due to some reasons or issues, I had to move out of that PG and I had to find a space for myself.
00:42:55:23 – 00:43:18:07
Unknown
And then my friend and myself, we sort of went to a house because we saw the board, you know, that said that it’s going to be rented. We rent and we spoke and we like we had to go to we want a room, and then we took that space and then a few days later, my friends, somebody was supposed to come.
00:43:18:12 – 00:43:38:16
Unknown
So she shifted some widows. I was staying alone and my parents were so worried because earlier they sort of like they were okay with it because that friend was along with me. But now that she has also moved out, they were like, really scared. Are you going to be okay living alone? You have to go and you have to, you know, be safe and all that.
00:43:38:16 – 00:44:08:13
Unknown
I think one I’m time I was strong enough, I was like, I don’t have a problem and stay. And I stayed there. And then again, when I was supposed to do internship, I, I did it in a different city state again, the time the same language. So I went there alone and I was able to manage that. So all these things sort of gave me that confidence that I can do on my own.
00:44:08:15 – 00:44:38:15
Unknown
And I also felt that the choices that I made were my responsibility. So I need to do it in a way that I feel happy about it and I do justice. I mean, I felt that if not, it should not be like I I’m happy, but it doesn’t actually have a meaning to it or the other way, like it’s like meaningful, but it doesn’t bring me happiness.
00:44:38:15 – 00:45:04:01
Unknown
So I felt that I should not do that. So I was always trying to balance that. So I every point I think I was making these choices for myself. So when I came back from college, my parents were very against me for going to a job, to do a job. They didn’t want me to work, I think. Then why did you make me study?
00:45:04:03 – 00:45:34:22
Unknown
You know, professional, of course, for five years. And I did so well. So I was like, I in fact, my teachers used to tell me that you’re one of the architects that we don’t want to lose. So try to practice architecture. So that’s how much sensitivity you are. Like, I don’t know how, but I always understand what my client needs and I try to give them the best I don’t like come up with the best idea and this is the best idea, so you should take it.
00:45:35:03 – 00:46:00:20
Unknown
What I do is I cater to my client and say, okay, all of this, this might enhance whatever you want. So I, I think I’m always somebody who keeps thinking that way. So my teachers, they’re always like, you should always pursue architecture. Then when I had to like, pursue my patterns, you know, let me do something against it.
00:46:00:20 – 00:46:27:15
Unknown
And then for six months I was making notebooks at home, sketchbooks, because I didn’t know I didn’t know what to do next. They were adamant and I had to spend my time in the same way. So I started making notebooks and somehow I started getting clients and friends who wanted more of these. So I started doing it as a business and then I was doing it.
00:46:27:15 – 00:46:52:22
Unknown
And after six months I told my about and see I am really bored. I mean, have I have more time? This is not sufficient to keep me occupied until you find a guy, because their main concern was I need to get married, so I’m going to find somebody. Let me go work. This is I will work in the cities, in the city so that you don’t have any problems.
00:46:52:23 – 00:47:25:16
Unknown
Like when are asked me to visit somebody or meet somebody, I’ll be available. So don’t worry about that. So this sort of gave them the confidence that, okay, she’ll be around, so not a problem. So then I went and I was working as an architect for a couple of years. Then I realized that architecture might not be the right thing for me because again, I saw a lot of gender discrimination on the project were long ago, so I felt that it was not the right thing for me.
00:47:25:17 – 00:47:59:20
Unknown
So by then my sketchbook was this sort of transition to do illustration and the same sort of the same thing. And I was doing all the, all that small projects and then every point of time I had to make these decisions. So my learning tool has been like sourcing from there. Then the next thing was I put everything and I decided that I had to do weaving weave a bit of tapestry.
00:47:59:22 – 00:48:24:16
Unknown
So that is one organization in another city where I am done, where they teach this. Actually they were not teaching it to Indians at that time. They were only catering to foreigners. So I came across their organization and to myself, you know, that the something that I want to do, maybe I don’t know why I kept that, you know, telling that I had to be there.
00:48:24:18 – 00:48:47:14
Unknown
And then they said this which is not affordable for me of that time. Then I said, you know what? I will give you an offer. I will be an apprentice with you for like five, six months. Is that okay? And you can keep all the things that I make if you want. Then they talk about it and they were like, I think we are okay with it and we have a place to stay.
00:48:47:14 – 00:49:05:04
Unknown
You can come and stay with us and you can do this. Then that was a big decision that they made. And then I told my bed and see, you’re taking some time to, you know, find alliance and proportions and all this. So you keep looking. I will be, you know, nearby bite. It’s just three or 4 hours a week.
00:49:05:06 – 00:49:43:05
Unknown
So when we call come back and then I went then again then I was learning for 5 to 6 months and at that time I was also teaching architecture in a college design program. So I was doing that. We do one. So every week I used to travel between the city and this, so I used to move around a lot and then slowly what happened at my city, my patterns were planning to establish a learning Center for Women, which was based on fashion design.
00:49:43:07 – 00:50:22:11
Unknown
How are you going to communicate? Ironically, because some, I think for women they need to have some skills, especially people who come from the Wall and middle income groups. I think they need to have a skill. So stitching is something very popular in India because for each or even then the festival started when you settle down. So that’s a business that is like, you know, that is a skill which is very useful for women, even if they are not doing it as a business, it’s good to make things for themselves.
00:50:22:13 – 00:50:48:19
Unknown
So my patterns in establishing that and then my mom was running it for a year or so and then suddenly she was not then. And at the time my brother was also not able to take it off and then they were like, How can you help us with this? Can you come and help us with this? So I came back and I was continuing teaching architecture.
00:50:48:19 – 00:51:16:07
Unknown
Then the same programs I was working with, the same colleges, and then I was also having my business like my sketchbook and design projects going on. And then I was also helping them manage total fashion design school. So then I was doing that. I always used to tell the girls and the women who come there that, no, you need to be independent financially so that you don’t have to listen to other people.
00:51:16:09 – 00:51:48:03
Unknown
It can be that a mom or husband or, you know, mother in law or father in law, whoever it is, you can make decisions for yourself. So please try to be independent and, you know, learn a skill, whatever it is, and pursue that. Try to keep yourself engaged. Other than homemaking activities, always keep yourself engaged with something. So through them, I was running the Institute also very successfully because we won a lot of awards as doing well.
00:51:48:05 – 00:52:24:07
Unknown
We had all the established organizations by then. I think like it was like three years almost. I was taking care of it myself, but shattered because she was one of the strong person that I grew up thinking that she would support me. And she always, even at times when they couldn’t find the right proposals or what I said, like they should treat me equally and all that I felt they understood, then they would be like, Yeah, you need a partner who agreed to write.
00:52:24:09 – 00:52:58:02
Unknown
They should give you financial freedom and all that. So I always get they are going to be supportive and but when I said about my decision to marry somebody, you just acted out so much and that sort of brought my confidence down. And there has been a point where I told my partner that maybe I can’t do this because I’m I’m I felt at that time my whole energy was being drained by this.
00:52:58:04 – 00:53:22:12
Unknown
I took my partner a lot of time, and you know how it is then. It’s a long distance relationship and the time distance, it was like several of us do. So when he’s about to sleep is when my morning is. And I am the busiest during that time. And it was very difficult. And he sort of brought me back actually.
00:53:22:14 – 00:53:48:10
Unknown
So I sort of lost all my confidence because I felt all women are not not supposed to take decisions because of the big they are going to hurt their bottoms. They are going to, you know, get a bad name or be called out by their littles. Everybody is going to laugh at you, you know, things like that. Maybe half the things a bit emotional and made up things that people tell you.
00:53:48:15 – 00:54:19:20
Unknown
But it was still affecting me and I was not able to focus on my work career, nothing. If the thing was becoming blind, I was not having the grass fall in the day. So I times I actually told my partner that maybe this is not going to work out because I’m going through so many things with my parents and I feel that I am responsible or I’m made to feel guilty that they provided me so much and I’m going against their wishes.
00:54:19:22 – 00:54:45:00
Unknown
It was my biggest guilt then. And then slowly my partner gave me that space and he was like, okay, we do whatever it is, and then everything. And then slowly I was sort of every day, day by day, I was like doing little things that will give me confidence. First it would be like, okay, let me finish this same.
00:54:45:01 – 00:55:06:15
Unknown
I did not think about anything and work on something. Then I’d be like, okay, next task, I need to do this. So everyday became harder, but I was able to do these little things that kept me going and at some point I sort of like so that, you know, this is it. This is going to be my day.
00:55:06:18 – 00:55:27:11
Unknown
They have to come to terms with this because this is my life. And like I said, I again and again, I came to the same thought that I want to see what is going to happen with this person. So if they stop because of what my patterns or because somebody else see, I’m not going to be happy about it.
00:55:27:13 – 00:55:54:13
Unknown
So that sort of gave me, you know, to come back to that point. It took me a lot of time, but somehow I got there and then even now I feel that I am still working on things because that confidence or that what do I have was sort of shattered at that moment. So now I’m slowly building and working on it, actually.
00:55:54:15 – 00:56:30:23
Unknown
Yeah. The one thing that still stands out from what you said is when you taught the women to keep pursuing their interests and to really keep growing, in essence, so that they will always have that financial freedom and not feel like they need to be controlled by whoever it is. And I feel like that that’s really an important lesson.
00:56:31:01 – 00:57:21:12
Unknown
And I’m kind of curious, like as we wrap up here, when you look back at how you developed your own agency and how you developed your own confidence and belief in yourself and all of the little like not little, but all of the different parts that you pursued to come into your own, to come into your confidence and believe that you are able to make something of your life, what would you change about how you were raised or educated by your schools and your parents and society?
00:57:21:14 – 00:57:58:07
Unknown
What would you change about how you educate the next generation of women or children, Whether it be your own or those who are important to you or those from your culture or your city or your country, or just society? General So, okay, so there was this question of I love my Ben. I heard about his history and his background and his childhood.
00:57:58:09 – 00:58:35:12
Unknown
I realized that he studied in a convent just like me, but he studied in the eventual convent and it was a bit more crazy. And like, so he was also an architect. And then he was supposed to do projects. He couldn’t get references. Then he would get recommendations from that. So which sort of was like his networking and so his childhood would spread.
00:58:35:14 – 00:59:25:17
Unknown
Well, they could offer houses are like big flats or businesses. They were people with that background. But then it came to me when I was just thinking about how my friends, like I studied in a convent, but it was a middle class. They didn’t go category and my friends are still struggling with their jobs or they are renting places or they they are forced to buy houses that are already built or just buy an apartment or a flat in an apartment because that’s the money that they have.
00:59:25:19 – 00:59:57:16
Unknown
So I feel I realized that where you study matters because of this in India. So if you had to have rich directions that give you a high ticket, then priced business, you need to have those connections. And if you’re in a middle income, then the kind people that you you need to cater to that get them to be in.
00:59:57:18 – 01:00:26:06
Unknown
So I felt that that a strong because anybody can be good at anything like somebody from a middle income would actually be able to urge questions but like house or design project and don’t somebody who is in the middle income who can actually need something that’s luxurious, like, you know, somebody who’s highly praised but because they need something.
01:00:26:08 – 01:00:58:08
Unknown
So I sense that like in India, the education itself is based on all these factors which will reflect in the future generations because the income divide is going to become higher and higher because the rich people are going to be among the rich people and the poor people are going to be among the poor people. So you are not giving equal opportunity or equal resources to people.
01:00:58:10 – 01:01:30:06
Unknown
So I said that is something that needs to be addressed and the next thing is on women and actually anybody for that matter in India, I mostly any developing country, I think what happens is education is more important. Like as kids, we were told education is very important. So when you study, when you study well, your life is subject.
01:01:30:10 – 01:02:03:00
Unknown
That’s what we were told. And we believe that and we study, but it’s not necessary for everybody to study like so you people can become athletes or artists all painters or you all sportsperson or musician. But we till now, we do not cater to that. We don’t have a system that works that we so everybody is forced to study, to have a secure life.
01:02:03:02 – 01:02:37:18
Unknown
But again, I won’t blame because if something goes wrong, you can fall back on your education like here that is this funny thing that you do whatever you want, but do it after engineering skills then. So. So it’s like mostly if you see photographs as well, you know, all these creative industry, what is there? They will all have engineering degrees or know some professional degree.
01:02:37:20 – 01:03:08:17
Unknown
That’s because of this social pressure that we have that you need to fall back on something if things go wrong. So I think in a way it’s valid because for some people that can become their livelihood. So there is not enough infrastructure to support all the different types of people or professions actually. So that’s something that needs to be fixed.
01:03:08:18 – 01:03:48:03
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. And is there anything that you would probably do differently for your own children if you ever had them, hypothetically, Yeah. Yeah. So for me, I felt that I think now homeschooling is an interesting concept that people are catching up on. So I think something like that or a school or a place where they have a thought process of letting kids do what they want, like something like a montessori.
01:03:48:07 – 01:04:16:15
Unknown
So I think in that system kids that are allowed to do something that they feel like doing at that moment. So I think that that space and that respect is required for kids to figure out what they want to do in their life. So I guess that would be something that I would want to want the future kids to hope.
01:04:16:17 – 01:04:48:13
Unknown
And there’s something actually that happened in my childhood. So now there is this thing that people do different kinds of lighting and cell phones that I didn’t defense influence. So as a kid, when I was like nine, ten years old, I had this habit of imitating people in writing. So when I saw somebody handwriting and if I liked it, I will write that way.
01:04:48:15 – 01:05:17:12
Unknown
So then I had to submit my homework for correction, and there were like two or three chapters we had done by that time. And it wasn’t the same handwriting. And then I remember the staff called me and she was like, Lord, who wrote it for you? That was the first question to ask. Who wrote the tweet? I said, I wrote it like, I can clearly see that there are three different handwriting.
01:05:17:14 – 01:05:40:14
Unknown
So I wrote all all the 300. I mean, I did all the three. You know, I was like, No, no, I don’t trust you. And she was about to hit me, you know, hitting was common then. So she was about to hit me as a Wait, wait, wait, wait. I can show you. Then she’s like, okay, I didn’t shoot then I sure.
01:05:40:14 – 01:06:02:06
Unknown
I wrote in all three different readings. And she’s like, Right. Then I said, That person was writing this way. So I felt that was nice and I wrote it. But later I said, That was not me. Then I saw somebody else writing the set and maybe this was something that I would want to read, you know, that kind of person.
01:06:02:06 – 01:06:29:22
Unknown
But I wrote the whole homework. Then I was not happy with that. So the next time I wrote, I just wrote in a different that time. She sort of like to that degree. And then she was like, she was telling me, No, no, this is very wrong. You know, you should write in 100 because it shows the mental capability that you have.
01:06:30:00 – 01:07:07:09
Unknown
It’s like if you write in the same way, it shows that you don’t keep changing your decisions. It shows that you are much more confident. But I think I will have to disagree with that now, because when I see you all writing orders that I’ll be like, I should have been a leading artist, probably, and you sort of, you know, stunted me standard that thinking there because you forced me to pick one handwriting and so I feel that that is not supposed to happen.
01:07:07:11 – 01:07:24:11
Unknown
So what did you change your mind? I feel that is nothing wrong and that I think we will regret more when we don’t change our minds. So that is that is something I feel the education system should understand.
01:07:24:12 – 01:07:33:09
Unknown
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.