Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I interview Lauren—a poet, musician, voice coach, and mom—about her earliest memories of being creative. She talks about the influence her family and societal messaging had on the development of her voice, how schools limited her freedom, and what it took to recover her creative confidence. My first question to her was “at what point in your life did you feel like you were a creative person, and the certainty that would be your path?”
Here is our edited conversation.
Computer-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of my name––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:00 – 00:00:28:13 Unknown Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed as a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned in the decades following. I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and even small academies.
00:00:28:15 – 00:01:01:19 Unknown I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems, to rethink what schools can be, what it should be.
00:01:01:21 – 00:01:28:22 Unknown When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I interview Lauren, a poet, musician, voice coach and mom, about her earliest memories of being creative. She talks about the influence her family and societal messaging had on the development of her voice.
00:01:29:00 – 00:02:00:23 Unknown How schools limited her freedom and what it took to recover her creative confidence. My first question to her was, At what point in your life did you feel like you were a creative person and the certainty that that would be your path? Here is our edited conversation with that. Such an interesting question. I’ve thought of this quite a bit because I actually looked back at I had.
00:02:01:01 – 00:02:28:12 Unknown So I had a livejournal in high school. That was my era and I exported it as a PDF and and you know, I knew I might want to refer back to that. And so I haven’t read the whole thing. I better read the whole thing at some point. But I was looking back and I saw a post from when I was 14 or so, and I was saying, I think if there was anything I could do, I might want to sing.
00:02:28:14 – 00:02:55:00 Unknown I may want to sing a lot. Like I may want to really be a singer. But the way I was putting it was as if that wasn’t something I was planning, but something that was a dream disconnected from a pathway. However, I think even before that, I think even before I had this self-awareness, I had family that encouraged me creatively.
00:02:55:01 – 00:03:21:00 Unknown So I wrote. I remember so clearly writing poetry. I remember so clearly what it was because we had just moved up from to our own sound. I was nine. You know, I was there. These big changes in my life. And I’d written some poetry and I shared it with my dad. And I remember being so proud that he saw it as something legitimate and wanted to tell his friend about that.
00:03:21:00 – 00:03:54:01 Unknown I’d written some poetry that was like genuinely moving. And he he wasn’t necessarily describing the the craft of it, but he was talking about the emotional quality of it. And interestingly, I then kind of I think I sort of strayed from poetry and I started thinking of poetry as a vehicle for songwriting. But I think even in those little moments, because I have that kind of feedback, it encouraged me to realize the potential of creative acts.
00:03:54:03 – 00:04:21:20 Unknown I mean, I was writing poetry maybe for that, too. And my very first painting I made as a toddler, my grandmother framed. I made this finger painting with with her and one of her friends, and she framed it and it was hanging in her bedroom when I would go visit her. She lived with us till I was three, but then when I would go visit her at her apartment, I would go and visit my painting.
00:04:21:20 – 00:05:13:09 Unknown I’d done that I didn’t remember doing. And so I think that the like, it was made so clear to me from a young age that creative acts on my part were perhaps even celebrated. But I think I think what I mean is, is like a quiet celebration to like, as much as I also got positive feedback, especially for music, especially for performing as a young person performing, you get a very different kind of attention and there’s that can be that can be a mixed bag, but there’s this quality of, of adults actually holding something like holding something in their hearts based on this work, not just, you know, that that painting.
00:05:13:11 – 00:05:46:11 Unknown It wasn’t that I remembered being encouraged to do that right? Or it wasn’t that I was thinking when I was six or four visiting, thinking, Well, now I am a creative. Right. But I had this understanding that, I did that painting and there it is, and it means something to someone else. And so I think I understood from a really young age that creativity wasn’t just for me as much as there were things I kept to myself.
00:05:46:11 – 00:06:18:13 Unknown Also, that creativity was a powerful way of connecting with other people, you know, And that because this was this was so interwoven with my childhood, again, you know, I was making up songs with my sister and I and you’re making a plays with friends. I wasn’t necessarily thinking where that would take me, but it was just very obvious that there was this very rewarding journey in each creative act.
00:06:18:13 – 00:06:51:11 Unknown For myself, I was connecting with others through it, and it’s also a gift for others that even after that creative act had faded for me, that there is something that was a gift to the world and a gift to others. I think that was still a bit of a winding road for me, but there was enough there that it brought me back and it brought me back and I had, I think, more curiosity, more willingness to take creative risks and explore in different art forms because of that.
00:06:51:12 – 00:07:24:06 Unknown And that was later in your life or also when you were younger. While in high school, I started writing songs and performing my own songs and and performing covers. And so I kind of got into the singer songwriter identity and and, you know, I was organizing shows locally and, you know, playing at these little local coffeehouses or open mics and and things like that.
00:07:24:06 – 00:07:45:17 Unknown So I, I don’t I mean, that was a risk in the sense that those are my songs. But in a way it was an easier risk because, you know, I could really own that. And, and be proud of that. There were times in high school where I thought, okay, I’m going to be going to university. I need to make smart choices.
00:07:45:23 – 00:08:22:00 Unknown I want to make a big difference in the world. I don’t want to be a struggling artist. I better go to school for science. I better I better explore. You know, I was interested in like biosystems engineering and ecology and things like that. And I actually once told that science teacher I had all the time being torn between the arts and sciences and sort of the way he responded to me was just as if it would almost be a waste or a silly choice for me to go into the arts.
00:08:22:02 – 00:08:47:05 Unknown But I had a bit of a turning point where I was I had had some amazing experiences with a program that an environmental studies program that was a full time, all day program in the school was like a special kind of intensive program within the high school for one semester where some of it was science, ecology based. But we were also like canoeing and riding bikes.
00:08:47:05 – 00:09:14:14 Unknown And part of it was was photography, and part of it was around the leadership aspects. And so after that I was thinking, okay, this is a different kind of science. I mean, I already loved science, but I was like, Wow, okay, Like it’s academics, but it’s so applied and because of the photography and we’re even even like studying Andy Goldsworthy sculptures and things like that.
00:09:14:14 – 00:09:40:12 Unknown So I was opening up my mind to kind of how arts and science interweave, you know, and I was really committed to wanting to explore as I think, bio biosystems and things like that. And I took part in a theater program over the summer after I, after I had done that program and I realized how much I loved it.
00:09:40:16 – 00:10:05:16 Unknown And I realized so I that in that in academic environments, I enjoyed learning a lot and I enjoyed feeling like I was right and I enjoyed feeling like I could play the game and win and I enjoyed feeling like I was working towards something bigger in the long term, right? And being part of something larger. But my actual experience was often not great.
00:10:05:18 – 00:10:33:09 Unknown Like I was often stressed out, I was often deeply uncomfortable. People in the classroom like I would test really well, but it felt like there was a lot of drama getting to those good marks and being part of this theater program, which was partially theater and interdisciplinary training for young people. So theater, but with a lot of improv, a lot of interactive theater elements, and also dance and singing.
00:10:33:11 – 00:11:00:03 Unknown And then part of it was creating a production related to Tom Thompson, one of the Group of seven painters who was from our area and I helping to create. It was already partially created, but helping to bring together because they were really pulling together creative ideas from the cast for things like the choreography. It wasn’t like a traditional straight theater piece in terms of how we all work together.
00:11:00:05 – 00:11:33:16 Unknown And I was working alongside professional actors and choreographers and set designers and in this professional environment, but semiprofessional with with some young or not professional cast also. And it just really opened up possibilities and I thought, wow, okay, these people are really having fun. Maybe I want a life that where I’m surrounded with these kinds of people rather than a life where I am like deeply stressed, trying to strive for this academic success.
00:11:33:16 – 00:11:52:03 Unknown I saw what was ahead of me, right? I had always thought, of course I’ll go to university like, you know, what are what are the smart career choices? You know, I was I was I was like researching like what smart graduate school choices would be when I was like 12 or 13, because that’s what they do at that age.
00:11:52:03 – 00:12:06:09 Unknown They take, you know, that’s what they did for us. Like they took us into the computer lab and told us, okay, you have to choose your courses for high school. So think about what you want to do. And like, here are all the careers. And I’m thinking, okay, like, where am I going to make the most money? Because this is another game I want to win.
00:12:06:11 – 00:12:24:05 Unknown And if I’m going to go through like all that struggle, there better be a big pot of money at the end. So, okay, what makes sense? And then so I’m saying, okay, like, and, and of course, at that time I was also thinking, what can I actually tolerate doing? You know what? How can I make a difference? What am I interested in?
00:12:24:05 – 00:12:42:16 Unknown And this is me at 12 or 13 trying to and I was literally thinking, okay, I think at that time I was like, okay, I’m going to become a psychologist and like, I can take that all the way to a PhD and like, that’s interesting and it’s kind of science, but it’s people and okay, that’s just what I’ll do it like.
00:12:42:18 – 00:13:10:04 Unknown And then of course, of course the plan changed, but I really had had this idea of like, okay, I must go to university, I must like kind of pick a career and like, know what that pathway will be. Not necessarily because of a huge amount of family pressure. It was just sort of like a given, kind of like the the teachers I had, the people around me just it was just kind of assumed.
00:13:10:06 – 00:13:33:12 Unknown And so that summer doing that theater program and seeing how much it let me up see how much it lit up the people around me. Right. And seeing the ways we could work that were collaborative, because I was also thinking, wow, this is not the same as, you know, drama class or spiritual, which I had had fun into.
00:13:33:12 – 00:14:02:07 Unknown But working in that kind of collaborative way and and having that kind of community experience to where we’re where we’re creating a piece of artwork together right. Even though I had had some really interesting arts experiences in high school, this was different. This was far more collaborative and far. Even though we were, you know, mounting a show, it was far less prescriptive in the process.
00:14:02:07 – 00:14:22:13 Unknown And I felt very nurtured and I felt we were talking about creative risks, Like I felt like I could take these creative risks. I could I had all these worries and fears about myself as a dancer, right? I felt like I’d missed the boat on dance training because I hadn’t done it when I was younger. I actually felt bad about music too.
00:14:22:13 – 00:14:44:13 Unknown Even though I was playing music, I thought, I didn’t start piano until I was nine. That’s too late. I’m so far behind the other people my age I might as well not even try to do competitions or exams because I’m just so behind. What? Like that’s so absurd now to see how hard on myself I was about about that kind of thing.
00:14:44:13 – 00:15:12:02 Unknown And so in this production, I was dancing and I was, you know, there are times where we were creating choreography as a group. And so, like, I was actually not only dancing, but I was creating generative ideas through movement and through collaboration that were seen as legitimate and that we could, you know, actually pull together and that it was blowing my mind that someone who had not felt like I could be a legitimate dancer, right.
00:15:12:02 – 00:15:42:00 Unknown Or that I then dancing on stage in a show. So having that environment, let me take some of those risks and let me reimagine what was possible for myself. And after that summer, I changed the courses I was taking for grit because I had planned my last year. It’s this great 12 year, those courses for my university admission requirements, like I thought again and picked the smart things, leaving my options open.
00:15:42:01 – 00:16:06:21 Unknown Lots of math and science. And I was also looking at that year ahead knowing I would really not enjoy actually doing that for grade 12 and I switched my courses to things that were interesting and compelling to me and would support a different kind of pathway. And I decided to go to school for theater, which I didn’t do, but I decided to try to go to school for theater.
00:16:06:23 – 00:16:34:22 Unknown I was particularly interested in interactive theater and theater for social change. I’d been involved in some pretty amazing theater things before that, too, especially around Theater of the Oppressed. And using interactive theater for it was actually a touring production about I helped create the the show and then it was mounted professionally and toured around safe dating sexual assault, healthy relationships for teens.
00:16:34:22 – 00:17:00:21 Unknown So I’d seen that power. But just being part of that, that that summer intensive, especially a musical, something that that was a different kind of interdisciplinary experience. I was like it was really mind opening to me. So I went from having all these math and science type courses to taking like an English literature class. I didn’t even like English class before that.
00:17:00:23 – 00:17:23:06 Unknown Like, I mean, I liked writing, I liked reading, like I took one I took an English class in the summer one year just so I wouldn’t have to take English through the year because it felt, well, we can get we can get into that. There were there were various reasons. I wasn’t a fan of English class, but then I was in this English literature class, really having much more in-depth experience.
00:17:23:06 – 00:17:50:08 Unknown And so that alone was a bit of a creative risk for me because I didn’t I hadn’t seen myself as that kind of person. Then I was really enjoying getting very in-depth to this literature study. And another other creative says to, you know, creative writing and, and theater and musical theater. And I ended up starting to make an album of the songs I’d written in high school that same year.
00:17:50:08 – 00:18:11:06 Unknown So that final year of high school, I’d had these songs I wanted to record. I knew I wanted to record them. But, you know, considering these big life choices, I thought, Wow, I really better record them now because am I going to want to record these songs from high school in ten years? Maybe not. So I thought, okay, I better, I better.
00:18:11:08 – 00:18:28:11 Unknown I was I was performing a lot. And so I thought, okay, I better record these while I’m in this moment before I go to university, thinking I just wrap that up during my grade 12 year and then go off to university. And it became apparent that I would need more time, that I was not going to finish that whole album that year.
00:18:28:13 – 00:18:55:20 Unknown And thankfully me at that time realized that trying to go to university and finish that album at the same time would would not be the most effective way of finishing the album first, right? So I thought, okay, I’ll wait. I’ll wait on university because that will still be there. Let me finish this creative project. And I didn’t end up going to school for theater.
00:18:55:22 – 00:19:28:18 Unknown I things ended up going a different direction. Yeah. Okay. So there are a few things that you mentioned here that I kind of want to ask you about. So. You talked about when you were younger and you presented this poem to your father and you know, you were proud of that moment even before you received that validation, but you used the word legitimate right?
00:19:28:19 – 00:20:15:10 Unknown And I was curious about that because another thread that I heard you say is this idea of winning, right? And this juxtaposition between like academic success and the correlation with, you know, math and science and then sort of creativity being sort of antithetical to that. And so I want to kind of pull these three threads together and ask you about where do you think you inherited these ideas of creativity is one direction and academic success is another.
00:20:15:12 – 00:20:43:08 Unknown I think I was often seen as I don’t know if wise beyond my years with quite be the right term at all, but I articulate for my age I think would be a way of putting it my dad used to joke that I never met a mic I didn’t like, or maybe he was talking about himself and you just saw that in me, you know, like he would.
00:20:43:12 – 00:21:11:23 Unknown He tells a story about him putting me up on a bar in a restaurant. Like to stand on the bar when I was two or three or something close to that as this little person to sing You Are My Sunshine and the Room loved that. And, you know, I just imagine me standing up on that bar and I also hearing that story as a child thought that that was like cute and sweet and somewhat normal.
00:21:12:01 – 00:21:38:09 Unknown Right. You know, people of people have these stories of when they were two or three. Right. But having now, I’ve had a lot of I mean, I have my own I have my own children, too. But I did a lot of work at early childhood music education and most children of that age would not tolerate that. Most children of that age would not sing to a room at that point.
00:21:38:13 – 00:22:01:02 Unknown Some somewhat for sure, but many would not. So I just thought that I think that the level to which I was outgoing and comfortable speaking with adults and I had my moments of being shy and I had tons of moments of being awkward when I say I never met a mic I didn’t like, I mean, I would still be scared to speak on a mic.
00:22:01:02 – 00:22:21:19 Unknown I would say my heart, you know, that doesn’t mean I felt great speaking on a mic, especially especially later on when I was 12. You know, I would still in tons of different performances. I would I would you know, I would feel terrible about how I did after sometimes. Right? I would I would be sweaty. I’d have my heart racing.
00:22:21:19 – 00:22:44:09 Unknown I’d feel like I wasn’t, you know, in control of my voice the way I thought I was. But I was still willing to do it. I was still often willing to get up there and take that risk. And whether that was enjoying the thrill because I had, you know, had that kind of thrill from such a young age or whether there was something more around this kind of interest in or investment in a creative path.
00:22:44:09 – 00:23:12:12 Unknown And so I was willing to do those things because they fit into a larger whole. But I think because I received so much positive feedback as a child about being able to talk to adults seeming precocious, that’s the word. Not not necessarily wise beyond my years, because I think it was actually precocious in a naive way. And so I think because I had received so much positive feedback around that.
00:23:12:12 – 00:23:38:14 Unknown And I mean, also the education system in the nineties, like we received positive feedback as children and I think this is still true in many ways, but I think it’s shifted a bit for acting like small adults, right? We like I, I knew I received feedback, better feedback for acting like an adult, right. For speaking to adults. Like I was an adult.
00:23:38:16 – 00:24:02:08 Unknown And then I would speak to other kids and they would they would make fun of me for using big words or there’d be actually, you know, I didn’t really receive positive feedback for in the same way for actually interacting with my peers. Right. And I think there’s also something around whether this is in my family or whether this is cultural.
00:24:02:08 – 00:24:43:00 Unknown Right. But the difference between creative work, that it’s personal and creative production, right? The the difference between exploration and learning everything we do before we decide to publish it or ship it or whatever. And I just I, I understood the difference. And I want I always want to strive for, quote unquote, high level. I really don’t I have trouble with that term now, but I still I still like production quality is still important to me.
00:24:43:00 – 00:25:22:14 Unknown And I think there is an art to that. And I think there’s lots that’s interesting about that. But there was I understood that there was a difference between a kid exploring and learning and a kid getting up on stage and doing something that seemed almost like an adult could do it. And this is since something that I have found really heartbreaking in education and especially in the performing arts, that we put so much emphasis on being able to do something that is repeatable and that seems like it was done by an expert or an adult or and I think we’ve lost so much because of that.
00:25:22:16 – 00:25:44:06 Unknown Yeah, and but that being said, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. I was guessing. But that being said, I think that inspired me as a kid because I could imagine, like it gave me something to reach towards. Right. So, you know, like we’d put on we’d put on music from The Nutcracker and the one dance class I took when I was five.
00:25:44:06 – 00:26:02:22 Unknown I’d like squeeze into the costume for as long as I could. Our neighbor was a seamstress, actually, so we had some, like, sample costumes too. So I put on these, like, ballet clothes for my one ballet performance experience, which I cried afterwards because I missed my mom so much in the change room and told her when I saw her that I was crying because I was happy.
00:26:03:00 – 00:26:28:03 Unknown But I was just so relieved to finally, like be with my family again. After not knowing how long I was going to be separated from them, waiting to perform and waiting for the performance to finish. It felt like an eternity for the rehearsal and the show of just not understanding like what would happen next or like what I needed to do.
00:26:28:05 – 00:26:49:18 Unknown So I would put on. But I’d forgotten all those negative things. I’d put on these these ballet clothes and we’d put on The Nutcracker and I’d, you know, come into the living room and we’d put on a performance for our parents. And like in that moment, it wasn’t about experimentation, it was about performance. And like, I wanted to be appearing.
00:26:49:18 – 00:27:13:19 Unknown And I think that’s a big difference. I think that’s a big difference between like because I could have had the goal of showing a story through that dance performance. And that was not my goal. My goal was to try to emulate someone who would be on stage and try to seem and feel and act like someone who was professional or that, you know, that kind of cut above.
00:27:13:20 – 00:27:38:22 Unknown And as a child, you hear this kind of thing. I’m assuming everyone does, but I think especially in my family, right, it would be, wow, Did you hear that kid sing? Like that kid could really sing? They blew my mind. They were amazing. There was this, like, clear distinction between people who were not necessarily at that high level.
00:27:38:22 – 00:28:06:17 Unknown Right. Still in the murky zone versus that. Wow. Kind of experience. And in the performing arts like that is an amazing thing and there’s value to that. But I think we lose so much trying to only shoot for perfect, reproducible performances. And that evolved into doing shows that were for the parents that were less ballet focused and more lip sync focused.
00:28:06:17 – 00:28:27:12 Unknown And, you know, the music evolved. And on Friday night we put on costumes and we do these little shows for our parents, right? And then they’d applaud. So I think there is this focus even from even from that time right, of like, let’s really put on a good show as much as we would just explore on our own, right?
00:28:27:12 – 00:28:55:07 Unknown Like we would just dance on our own. We would sing on our own, We would, you know, come up with stories and all these things. But there’s there’s this practicing of legitimacy, even even even in those moments. Right. Like, let’s turn off the lights like so. And then when we come in, someone’s going to turn on the lights like, like really try to create it in a way that added these elements of legitimacy.
00:28:55:09 – 00:29:26:14 Unknown And I think there I think there might be more to say around that. But I think when in terms of those moments of having written these poems, I still actually don’t know how I managed to write poems quite like that when I was nine. It definitely did not transfer into writing prose at that time or writing stories or even writing songs like there were two or three poems that really and I still have.
00:29:26:20 – 00:29:52:08 Unknown I’ve had these kinds of experiences as a poet since, where it’s a bit of a where did that come for a moment or where something bit new, right? And so I was pleasantly surprised. And then having a real grown up see that as not just an all that’s cute kind of thing, but this impacted me and this could impact another person.
00:29:52:10 – 00:30:22:14 Unknown I think there’s two things. I think when I use the word legitimate, I did mean it in a sense of seeming precocious or seeming worthy or seeming well, at that time seeming like and like it would be worthwhile for an adult writer or like it would be, I mean, again, to tie it back to the education system, like I knew what it meant to be above or below a line, you know, like I knew what it meant to be.
00:30:22:19 – 00:30:53:18 Unknown Wow. Versus right or versus a keep trying. You’re getting there. So I think part of it was that. But I think that when I say the word legitimate, I think part of what I mean is a bit more a bit more heartfelt in terms of like it legitimately touched him. I remember him. I remember him saying like, I was like eavesdropping and he was on the phone as a friend.
00:30:53:20 – 00:31:22:15 Unknown And he I remember he literally said the words, it’s amazing. I remember this stuff. It would bring tears to your eyes. There might have even been an expletive in there. And like that meant something. I thought, Wow. Like he thinks it would bring tears to his eyes, which, you know, I I’d seen some tears brought to the eyes before, but it’s still it meant I’m matching the other things that are at that level and you’re telling that to someone else.
00:31:22:17 – 00:31:53:04 Unknown So I think part of that legitimacy was realizing that that poem not only coming from me like in that context, but that it had this value as a piece kind of a bit separate for me that like, like I finished it and it wasn’t just me being being applauded for like my precociousness or legitimacy, but the work itself had some value and had some legitimacy in terms of how it could be impactful.
00:31:53:06 – 00:32:19:23 Unknown Yeah, I think it was kind of scary in a way. I didn’t write another poem like that for a while. Like I think the responsibility actually of that was a little intimidating. In terms of what and how we shine a light on emotionally, I’m just curious like were your parents supportive of the creative paths that you did ultimately decide on?
00:32:20:00 – 00:32:48:23 Unknown Yes, I would say they have been very supportive. I’m very lucky in that, you know, I get to have conversations with my parents where they look at me, they look me in the eye and they tell me they’re proud of me. And they you know, these I’m just so lucky they’ve been very, very supportive. I think when I first I think earlier in my dad’s, I, I don’t know if I was looking for support, like I was being supported.
00:32:48:23 – 00:33:20:19 Unknown They have been so I could give a lot of like specific examples. I mean, my dad was driving me to gigs, right? Like my dad was my dad was really, really supportive, really involved. Actually at some times. And yeah, they’ve absolutely been supportive. I think there comes a time in in a creative journey, however, where what is most impactful to you is not necessarily something that’s seen on the outside.
00:33:20:21 – 00:33:48:08 Unknown And so I think that they naturally, of course, have a bit of a bias towards certain kinds of achievements or expressions of what they see as like me doing well. Right. But they they just want me to be happy, have a good life like that kind of thing. Right. They’re not what I was what I was saying is I think I was so rebellious about it at a certain age, I was still receiving their support, don’t get me wrong.
00:33:48:10 – 00:34:09:23 Unknown But I definitely had an energy of I’m doing what I want, whether you like it or not, like keep talking to me and watch me or try to block me and I just won’t tell you about it. I mean, by block, I mean like interfere, right? Neither. Now the online blocking kind of way, but I had a I had a toughness about me.
00:34:09:23 – 00:34:37:09 Unknown I think I approach things a bit differently now, like internal boundaries. I think I made it very clear and, you know, as a parent myself now, you know, I would understand if my kids had that kind of like just watch me attitude. Right? But I would I would maybe hope that they had a little more gentleness or openness or easiness ease.
00:34:37:11 – 00:34:59:03 Unknown I’m not quite finding the right word, but I think that that attitude is partially because I was living in downtown Toronto and like I was playing music with bands and bars and I was younger than like everyone I would meet and talk to almost every conversation I had would be around how young I was, how commentary on that, right?
00:34:59:03 – 00:35:24:22 Unknown And so I felt very outside of a lot of social groups. Because of that, I felt like I had a lot to prove. I felt naive in so many ways. I remember saying to someone something along the lines of like, I just haven’t been like cooking macaroni for myself for that many years. Like, I talked to my friend and they had a decade of cooking whatever for themselves.
00:35:24:22 – 00:35:55:17 Unknown And I just like, don’t know things because I haven’t done it that much. And I feel self-conscious about that. And I wanted to be a cool musician. And so there’s this toughness that I wanted to have to be able to. And, you know, people always tell you how tough the music industry is going to be and how I think there’s a lot of kind of unhealthy mythology around that of like, you must suffer, you must like go into debt, you like this is the way it’s going to be.
00:35:55:17 – 00:36:45:07 Unknown Just keep at it just And so I it wasn’t just my parents, but that had me adopting this, this sort of toughness. But unfortunately for them, they were maybe the beneficiaries of this attitude that I felt was protecting me. Right. But yeah, they’ve been so supportive. So I have a question around this sort of piece here. It kind of sounds like you had a lot of support from your parents, from your family, from your environment, from your peers regarding your creativity and maybe many opportunities to practice your creativity.
00:36:45:07 – 00:37:19:11 Unknown And I’m curious, like, can you remember any people either in school or other areas or other influences in your daily life that weren’t as supportive of sort of your pursuits? And I’m curious to hear more about maybe the struggles that you had around maybe pursuing your creativity or, you know, just pursuing life in general. Like what were some.
00:37:19:11 – 00:37:53:10 Unknown Yeah, negative influences. It’s interesting because to speak now, it’s it sounds like things were so idyllic, like, it sounds like I had these amazing opportunities, an amazing support. And at times that did translate into a certain level of confidence. But there was a lot of lack of confidence in myself and a lot of avoidance of feeling very cringe or very overwhelmed.
00:37:53:10 – 00:38:45:09 Unknown Despite all that. And I think that has formed how I work with people as a facilitator, as a voice coach, because I realize even with so much experience performing, I still had I still had so much trouble believing in myself, feeling I was improving in ways and at the rate I wanted to, you know, coping with disappointment about performance is like managing my time and energy to actually do things I and I mean, honestly, even in this moment, I think to myself a little bit like, wow, you had so much going for you and you couldn’t even see it like, almost like it was a waste of potential.
00:38:45:11 – 00:39:20:06 Unknown Even now I almost feel that. And I think that I think that that sense of, you know, like, you just need to listen. You just need to check over your work like you would do so well if you weren’t lazy and not looking over your work before you submitted or things like that. I think I felt socially awkward a lot from a young age and I think I took things personally.
00:39:20:08 – 00:39:53:10 Unknown If there was, I think in my family there was this proper ness almost when we talk about legitimacy, right, Like, you know, like we would be expected to speak of body parts and bodily functions with medical terminology and not use, you know, the lower terms that are off putting right? Not with not without regard to accent, but there is this this kind of propriety.
00:39:53:12 – 00:40:18:18 Unknown Right. And there wasn’t a lot of like and to go along with that there wasn’t a lot of like teasing friendly teasing within the family roughhousing. I have a sister I mean like I was active in playing with boys and loved that. But within the family there, there, there was this certain sense of, yeah of like, you know, a good Christian home.
00:40:18:18 – 00:40:43:10 Unknown Even though my parents weren’t really like that, they were more of the black sheep side of the family than that. But that that was still in the family very much right. So I think then the roughness of teasing and things like that with other children was hard for me to recover from. Like if something happened, it would feel so deeply wounding and I wouldn’t understand it because no one else acted like that, that I, I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t get it.
00:40:43:10 – 00:41:13:22 Unknown I didn’t get how to navigate that. Even in kindergarten. I remember that happening. I mean, everyone has moments of bullying or difficulty, but there’s something in it that really stuck with me and I was really afraid to get in trouble. I was really afraid to like, there’s things I still remember from kindergarten, literally kindergarten, about either being excluded or being corrected by something.
00:41:13:22 – 00:41:42:12 Unknown I should have been corrected about. Right? But like I didn’t even in kindergarten, I felt so embarrassed and so called out to be corrected about something. When I was seven, I think I was tested gifted because they did this testing for some kids. And around the same time my parents were also separating. And so I was like pulled out of class for this like gifted program, which I didn’t totally get.
00:41:42:12 – 00:42:06:06 Unknown I was like, This is supposed to be more interesting than class, but I don’t know if it is like I was already bored by that point, right? I was bored a lot in class and then I also pulled out of class for this. Like your parents are separating. So talk about your feelings. Let’s make sure you’re okay. Kind of program.
00:42:06:07 – 00:42:20:09 Unknown and so I had a, I had a bit of a sense of being different. I already knew I was a bit different because I felt like I didn’t get along with I didn’t fit in with the boys. I wanted to play their games, but I didn’t quite fit in and I really didn’t fit in with the girls at school either.
00:42:20:09 – 00:42:41:17 Unknown Like sometimes I would sit with them at lunch and I just, you know, this is what I think. You’re eight years old. Really fitting, feeling like I was in the middle. Not quite fitting in with either group, having having times where I felt excluded from either because I couldn’t keep up with the guys and the, you know, the rough and quick and games they were playing.
00:42:41:17 – 00:42:58:12 Unknown I couldn’t throw as far as them. I couldn’t catch the ball as well, and I didn’t have a ball cap to catch the ball in the way they did. And then, you know, eventually I did. But right. Like I had this this feeling of being different and lesser, but yet also being like pulled out of class and in these special groups.
00:42:58:12 – 00:43:36:07 Unknown Right. And then shortly after that, we moved from Mississauga, which is a suburb of Toronto. Mississauga Ends might not appreciate me describing it that way, but it’s a bit outside of Toronto. It’s tremendously multicultural. And so then I moved from that to Owen Sound when I was nine, where it was not very multicultural like we had Carol singing assemblies in school with very religious Christian Christmas carols and, you know, like the one Jewish kid and one Jehovah’s Witness kid would just be like pulled out of the assembly for something else to do.
00:43:36:09 – 00:44:01:22 Unknown It was it was just a totally different environment. And it took me some time to kind of find my friends. Like I went through different friend groups. So I didn’t feel very integrated and I didn’t have long standing like extracurriculars. I didn’t play on sports teams. As I was saying, I wasn’t in the dance classes or gymnastics classes that I wanted to be.
00:44:02:00 – 00:44:30:00 Unknown I, I was in swimming lessons and I didn’t feel like I was that great at them. And I felt super self-conscious because I had fuzzy French Canadian arms and it was cold. And, you know, I, I felt like I was kind of missing out on something that that, that, that other people were getting. And then through music, I think I found more of that community and found found more that I could get excited about and that I could fit in in in certain ways.
00:44:30:00 – 00:44:55:02 Unknown Right? But even within that, I think there was a lot of struggle. I mean, anyone who learned piano as a child, not not anyone, but I’ve since taught piano and I often hear people telling stories about, like their piano teacher yelling at them or their parents or being disappointed in their more or whatever. I think the culture around that kind of thing.
00:44:55:04 – 00:45:15:23 Unknown I actually remember asking my piano teacher if I could, like try like study a particular book or work towards me. I was actually, I think working towards some exams and she basically said, No, you don’t practice enough, like you don’t work hard enough, so I’m not going to do that with you. And like, I was so disappointing to me and I felt like I’d done something wrong, you know?
00:45:15:23 – 00:45:43:18 Unknown So they were like their challenges kind of navigating where I could find my place and like, where I, where I could could strive. And then that that gifted program I mentioned it, it was a bit different here, you know, and sound and in Blue water board and the they started testing kids the year after me at a certain age.
00:45:43:18 – 00:46:09:18 Unknown So I was like in my grade level, I was the only kid that was actually designated gifted because it happens with a test. And then you can have an IEP, which is individual education plan. And so I was only kid at my grade level who had that. And then there was kind of like cohorts after me. And so I, you know, again, I started to see, okay, there’s these other things in education.
00:46:09:18 – 00:46:40:11 Unknown So they would take us to these like stem days or weekends and something and, and I was so bored in school a lot I would get in trouble for reading in class because I didn’t feel engaged with what was going on around me in grade four, I had the teacher had me keep my book at her desk, so I had to go get my book from her desk when it was time to read because otherwise I would secretly read in class, which in retrospect I was reading things that were so educational like, it is so absurd to me now.
00:46:40:11 – 00:47:00:20 Unknown And I and I mean, I also get that like, I’ve been in classrooms, I’ve, I’ve been an educator in different ways. I also understand that if a kid is reading and not in in their own world, that you might have to course correct that. But I was researching all of these things. I was so interested in, in so much depth.
00:47:00:20 – 00:47:32:20 Unknown And it just it wasn’t really being harnessed. I remember asking my parents if I could be homeschooled. I, you know, I remember waiting till I thought it would be a reasonable time to ask to go to the washroom just because I needed a break from feeling so stifled in the classroom environment or so bored or I think in retrospect, I needed to move my body a lot more and I didn’t have as many opportunities for that because I also felt like gym class was very constraining and pressure right?
00:47:32:22 – 00:47:58:18 Unknown And so, like the school environment was challenging for me. And I see now that like, I didn’t even understand how much it was impacting me. Like I knew I felt like I needed to get out in high school. I would skip class and I would just go study or read or like I wasn’t bad, quote unquote. I wasn’t.
00:47:58:20 – 00:48:23:17 Unknown I mean, maybe a couple times I skipped class and walked over to the mall or something, but if there was a substitute teacher, I was skipping class because I knew a substitute teacher would let me go for an orthodontic appointment if I told them I had an orthodontic appointment and I would skip class to just go do homework for another class or or read or, you know, practice piano.
00:48:23:17 – 00:48:51:05 Unknown If I could get into a piano practice room in the music room because I felt my time was being so deeply wasted in a class with a substitute teacher often and I’m sorry to those substitute teachers who might not have been about to waste my time, you know, I know. I know teachers who who taught me in high school now, now as adults that I don’t necessarily blame the individual teachers, but the system as a whole.
00:48:51:07 – 00:49:32:17 Unknown I felt very uncomfortable with and I think was really adding to some emotional challenges, especially later. And also I think that there at the time, maybe still now, but especially in the nineties 2000, there was a normalization of what I now see as like quite unacceptable, domineering, abusive behavior from adults towards kids like movies from the nineties, how they portrayed teachers and parents versus how I want to interact with children in my life.
00:49:32:17 – 00:50:08:08 Unknown And versus how I want adults to interact with my kids. I think that there were times where I was traumatized by seeing teachers or other adults acting towards children, actual children, or sometimes high school students too, but especially it’s especially poignant to me when I think of actual children being mistreated by adults in front of me and now understanding what I do about the nature of trauma and how hard it was for me to be criticized or made fun of and how deeply that impacted me.
00:50:08:08 – 00:50:39:03 Unknown And I understand now that as a child, seeing that happen in front of me in all kinds of little ways, way over many years, sometimes bigger ways, or you hear of things or sometimes, you know, sometimes serious things. But seeing that happen in front of me for so many years, I now understand that for children, seeing someone else be mistreated impacts a child in a way that correlates to how they would process it if they were mistreated.
00:50:39:05 – 00:51:17:19 Unknown And I think that really broke my trust in the system and broke my trust in authority. And some I mean, in some cases maybe it was things directly towards me as well. But I and, you know, actually that legitimacy within the family, like our emphasis on that, I think there was also an emphasis on questioning and on on change and on like I knew that there was corruption in the world, that I knew that there were like, you know, all kinds of issues stemming from like the government that we are supposed to trust and that so I knew from a very young age that you can’t always trust the government.
00:51:17:19 – 00:51:48:16 Unknown I knew from a very young age that you can’t always trust the health care system. But this became more and more apparent to me. I can try to navigate that kind of system when you are literally imprisoned in it as a child like you have or and and, you know, even as an adolescent, right. Like, I mean, you can drop out of school as an adolescent, but while you’re in it like like you are subject to that authority, I think that in some ways I was in a like trauma response.
00:51:48:16 – 00:52:12:10 Unknown I mean, I had things going on in my personal life, too. There were things outside of school for sure, but reflecting now upon my high school was like I realized, wow, I still don’t want to work in a high school. Like I didn’t want to be in high schools. As a high school student, and I still don’t want to be in high schools.
00:52:12:12 – 00:52:36:09 Unknown And I still like as an adult working in an education because I’d be a visiting artist in classrooms. Or there were times where I was teaching piano and voice and ukulele privately, and so I’d be in the schools and there were little things I would see and notice sometimes bigger things that would really not sit right with me and really like bring does bring discomfort to me.
00:52:36:09 – 00:53:00:05 Unknown And I at the time didn’t totally connect it with my experiences when I was actually in school myself. And now looking back, I’m thinking, Wow, I did not feel super like there was tons going for me. There were tons of support. There were so many adults that wanted to help and support me. There are adults, so many adults that reached out to me in different ways and I pushed away because I didn’t trust adults.
00:53:00:10 – 00:53:27:05 Unknown I didn’t trust the school system. I knew that even if I trusted an adult who did want the best for me, that they were connected with an institution that may not want the best for me. And I knew that even if one person was reaching out, I felt so distrustful of that and not to mention, I remember in high school, like there was a lot of there was a lot of people hurting, right?
00:53:27:05 – 00:54:16:13 Unknown Like there’s a lot of drug alcohol abuse. There was violence there. There were things happening that at the time seemed so normalized. And I’ve since talked to other people who went to school. You know, I went to school at a similar time than me in the same town. And that was not their experience or their awareness. But looking back on it now, I’m thinking, wow, I would not want to work in an environment that had so much bubbling up around substance abuse and binge drinking and violence and where I’m literally seeing in an always incompetent, like I said, I’ve deep respect for many teachers, but in some cases incompetent or at the very least hypocritical
00:54:16:17 – 00:54:49:07 Unknown and in some cases outright cruel or at least like misguided and definitely dysregulated like I and and furthermore, putting so many people together, like so many teenagers together, like it’s just a very large environment, right? And I wouldn’t want to work in that environment. As I was saying, I still don’t. And so there are so many things about being a student that I look back on and I think, wow, that is a very difficult environment for of any age to be in.
00:54:49:09 – 00:55:17:01 Unknown And as I say, I had some extra things going on that definitely were meant I was in either like a freeze state, a fight state, like I was. I see now, like there were times I was very happy, very motivated, but there were times where I was very anxious, very either fighting, fighting or fleeing freezing funding. Like I was cycling through a lot of disregulation.
00:55:17:03 – 00:56:06:01 Unknown yeah, Yeah. So these are all really great points that you mentioned. I think you like ran the entire gamut of like you’re very thorough is what I would like to say. And I wanted to ask you, as maybe our last question as we end, you know, like looking back and reflecting on all of these, you know, disparate but also connected issues that you had recognized both during school and also in retrospect and also you being having gone back into becoming an educator and also being a parent right.
00:56:06:03 – 00:57:04:01 Unknown What do you think is one impactful thing that we can change about mass education or how we parent our children at home or in society that you would like to see happen for your children and your children’s generation? This is something I’ve thought about a lot and where I’ve landed for myself after doing lots and lots of work with kids is that my primary work now is with adults and is with adults around their voice around voice work, both in terms of exploration for all kinds, for for lots of different reasons, for well-being, for skill development.
00:57:04:01 – 00:57:31:18 Unknown Right? So there’s there’s lots there. And in terms of how we use our voices in the world, whether that’s with singing, but also with speaking. And I work with podcasters and I still do some some community work with things like classroom visits or workshops with kids. But why I decided to shift is because I found that I, I seen adults that needed to come home to their own voice.
00:57:31:19 – 00:58:10:09 Unknown I think coming home to our own creative exploration can be very transformative for young people or for for people of any age who are who are in the system, so to speak, even just to witness. But I think that there’s a lot we can do. There’s a lot I would love to change both the system. I think on on an individual level, I there’s a lot we can do to increase our capacity even within even within that system.
00:58:10:14 – 00:58:34:00 Unknown Or as you’re saying, as parents prior to that and I know this because it was not easy for me, it was not necessarily natural for me. Like I had gone to school for inter disciplinary arts facilitation and learned all the all of the things about how to ask great questions and how to design lesson plans with lots of creative choice points.
00:58:34:00 – 00:58:54:10 Unknown Right. And I found that if I was one on one with a kid, it was not always natural to me to actually play and explore with that kid, even with my own kids. And I found I taught early childhood music for years and then I’m looking at this baby, I’m eight and I’m thinking, I better sing to you, right?
00:58:54:11 – 00:59:28:23 Unknown Like, I guess I need to decide now what we sing. And I guess I need to do the songs. Because before I was doing the songs for everyone else’s kids, right? And I saw there how people are afraid to sing. In a lot of cases, they’re afraid to use their voice. And what I’ve found in leading workshops on voice and coaching voice is that often there’s a sense of needing permission to play or permission to explore voices, and that there’s so much we can do to come home to our own voice without an expert.
00:59:29:01 – 00:59:52:21 Unknown And when we think, Well, I need you to teach me music and I’m going to leave my problem solving skills at the door, I’m going to leave my like, I’m just going to consent to you being my music master. And then like, tell me all the music things and I will do what you say. And then one day I can hope maybe to strive, but I’ll never quite be like you.
00:59:52:21 – 01:00:20:03 Unknown And it’s is this whole construct that we don’t. It doesn’t need to be like that. You can. There’s lots around guidance and ideas, and I’m not saying that, you know, we need to rough it alone, but there’s so much we can do to create a greater sense of freedom to explore and therefore a greater sense of mastery as we become more acquainted with that.
01:00:20:05 – 01:00:41:17 Unknown And I think that this can be on a level of educators feeling more comfortable bringing some of this into their classroom in lots of little ways or in really big radical ways, right? Because it can be tricky when there’s pressure to create certain kinds of outcomes, right? So this can be done through design. Well, even if you do keep hiding from your own voice.
01:00:41:17 – 01:01:09:11 Unknown But I talk to educators, I talked to people with music degrees who feel cut off from their own voice and cut off from their ability to sing. And our ability to sing has very little to do with a music degree, like we are amazingly able to mimic and explore. And I think the more we can develop our own range of expression and our own comfort in that, then the more we can use that as parents and that can look like that can look like different things.
01:01:09:13 – 01:01:35:08 Unknown But I think when we practice that with ourselves, with observing what’s going on with us, like in creation physiologically, in our mind before we create. Right. And really, really just observing that and getting curious about it and can curious about how we’re creating that can then translate with sometimes it takes some effort into having curiosity about what our children are doing.
01:01:35:10 – 01:02:00:20 Unknown And rather than trying to make creative it happen in a certain way, trying to be very curious so that that can unfold together and that can be it for ourselves and and our children. Asking lots of questions. You know, kids would often say to me, like, I made this, do you do like it? I’d have such a hard time saying yes.
01:02:00:20 – 01:02:18:18 Unknown Because what I would say is, do you like it? I didn’t want to tell them I liked it because I didn’t want it to matter to them. If I liked it, I would give them positive feedback. Like I would smile, I would show I had attention towards it. Sometimes when I wouldn’t answer them, I’d say like I would look.
01:02:18:18 – 01:02:47:21 Unknown I would show them I liked it. And I would say, Do you like it? And kids are smart. They’d be like, Yeah, but do you like it? And so, you know, like sometimes because they’re expecting it, that’s what they want to do. But also is that I wouldn’t say yes, it’s so pretty. I would say yes. I’m so curious about those lines.
01:02:47:23 – 01:03:15:22 Unknown I see there are so many different shades of blue in this part or this part is all orange. Wow. That was a lot of orange or, you know, I would I would describe features of it instead. And so often with kids, we can get in a mode of training for compliance, negotiating, dominating and dominating, or sometimes really like small little ways.
01:03:15:22 – 01:03:44:04 Unknown And so I think opening it up to a lot of questions and curiosity and there is a space for like building capacity in more specific ways too. But I think in increasing our own capacity for that questioning in ourselves and increasing the capacity for that, that we have to hold with with with children in that with them with more of an open mind and with less judgment and with like having an ally ship.
01:03:44:06 – 01:04:24:17 Unknown So and and and within that ally ship, like holding positive regard instead of assuming negative intent, I think is is a big problem thinking like how can we really ally together and collaborate in ways that work together for, you know, often I think often in education and in parenting, it can feel really frustrating. It can feel like the institution owns the culture, the regulations, the health system.
01:04:24:17 – 01:04:58:18 Unknown It can seem like there are barriers to doing this. It can seem like the structures are trying to work in the opposite ways in some ways. But I think even within the structure, there can be a discussion as well about just stepping outside of that rate or or changing the actual rules of the structure. In high school, I once wasn’t able to advertise a concert that I had produced, which is probably a very educational thing I was doing because advertising wasn’t allowed in the school.
01:04:58:20 – 01:05:29:17 Unknown And I thought, But there are soft drink company sponsored vending machines advertising in the center of the school, brightly lit that are actually profiting and running their business model within your system. And are you sure that I can’t advertise are promote in your school. And so I mean I think that’s that’s an example right, of like sometimes you bend the rules out of allyship, right.
01:05:29:19 – 01:05:58:18 Unknown Rather rather than than creating more friction. Right. But and sometimes the allyship is is a stepping outside of that collaborative energy and that willingness to explore in more undefined ways is important. I think it’s an important place to start because if we just tear down the system and we don’t come from that ally ship or that place of exploration like we need something to build up in that space.
01:05:58:20 – 01:06:35:09 Unknown And I just had an image of like, you know, this super hero growing into their super self and like busting out of their clothes. You know, it’s like if we’re going to bust out of the constraints that are upon us, we want to have not only a robust superhero self in terms of our skills and like what we’ve designed or what we’ve created, but also a superhero self or an aspirational self that also has discernment and an open mind and positive.
01:06:35:11 – 01:06:47:10 Unknown And, you know, we want our superheroes to be good allies in every way, not just in their hockey ways.
01:06:47:12 – 01:06:56:12 Unknown Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links, the show notes. Until next time.