Hi, I’m Rée.
Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergence, learning disabilities, and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned.
In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies. I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy.
Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea, who like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school, I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me.
homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems to rethink what schools can be. What it should be, when we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources.
In this episode, I speak with Renée, a learning specialist and educator—about her earliest memories of teaching herself how to read before 4 to receiving various interventions in schools for … yup, reading. We talk about the family members and school teachers and staff who helped to identify the help she needed to find academic success, and how—in a full circle moment—she became an interventionist who helps to identify students’ unique needs and collaborates with teachers and parents to develop individualized learning plans.
Here is our edited conversation.
Auto-generated Transcript
Accessibility Disclaimer: Below is a computer generated transcript of our conversation. Please note that there are likely very many errors––including the spelling of our names––and may not make sense, especially when taken out of context.
00:00:03:10 – 00:00:28:00
Rée
Hi, I’m Ray. Growing up, I felt like the education system wasn’t built for people like me to succeed. As a student with undiagnosed neurodivergent learning disabilities and anxiety, I struggled to learn in the ways my peers learned. In the decades following, I became an educator and taught in various classrooms around the world. I taught in public schools, private universities, large government funded programs, and small academies.
00:00:28:02 – 00:00:53:19
Rée
I designed curriculum, measured student success, and even assessed teacher efficacy. Then, while teaching a group of English language learners in South Korea who, like me, hadn’t received adequate attention in school. I realized I was using the same methodologies as the ones that had failed me. Homeroom is my attempt to remedy this on an international scale. To speak with as many people from around the world about their own education systems.
00:00:53:21 – 00:01:20:13
Rée
To rethink what schools can be. What it should be. When we design systems and metrics which are inclusive of more diverse types of learners and thinkers with varying levels of family involvement and access to resources. In this episode, I speak with Rene, a learning specialist and educator, about her earliest memories of teaching herself how to read before she was four years old to receiving various interventions in school for yep, reading.
00:01:20:15 – 00:01:48:07
Rée
We talk about the family members and school teachers and staff who help to identify the help she needed to find academic success, and how, in a full circle moment, she became an interventionist who helps to identify students unique needs and collaborates with teachers and parents to develop individualized learning plans. Here is our edited conversation.
00:01:48:09 – 00:02:09:16
Renée
Well, that is a loaded question. So that’s the first question. Okay. So going to start with what kind of child I was. I was I remember being very hyper exposed when I made nicknames as a child. I remember being very, movement committed. Life was my life. Dance was my life as a child. I was very curious.
00:02:09:16 – 00:02:37:18
Renée
I remember asking so many times, like, all the y questions. I remember being, like, in the back of the car and just being like, why is the sky blue? I am, I, I’m fine. I so like, by the way, we have 30,000, but I, I remember, I said my grandchild, I remember being like really like,
00:02:37:20 – 00:03:10:03
Renée
Impatient. Like I was very moving, very impatient, but, like, things to happen because things tend to come naturally to me. I was an early reader, even though, later in life, like, I diagnosed as being too textbook. But I was an early reader. So I think I started reading at four, actually. And I remember just being Billie inquisitive about what I was reading and inquisitive about, like, what’s happening in the world and and things around me.
00:03:10:05 – 00:03:35:09
Renée
So I had a interesting, upbringing. My mom was deaf, my dad was hard of hearing, and then my grandfather also helped raise me. So, the type of child I was depended on what parent was sometimes, but at the core was always this, like, curious child that I think, you know, it bleeds into why I’m a teacher.
00:03:35:11 – 00:03:59:02
Renée
And interventionist. But, I think at the core, that’s where I was. Yeah, it’s a really great question. Like, I haven’t thought about that in a while. And then, what type of, student. So I actually recently found like a book called, loony laughing because, my husband was like, what? And I was like, he’s like, you found report card.
00:03:59:02 – 00:04:26:22
Renée
Like, this is random. It was just a random. It was like, I think it was something I wasn’t like consecutive. Right? It was my first second grade there for, like, it was just happy to find a way in the report card, and a bunch of photos together. I was like, oh, this is the report card. And I read the comments back and it was, basically that, you know, Rene is an amazing child who has really detailed questions and really thinks more about the world.
00:04:27:00 – 00:04:49:23
Renée
But she needs to stop talking when people are talking. And I was like, oh, yeah, that sounds so it’s like, so, you know, I think, I’ve seen very much as a student, I was like the good girl or like the one to always get good grades. But I always had this, like, sense of urgency, in the classroom.
00:04:50:00 – 00:05:07:03
Renée
You know, I always wanted to be like, okay, I got it. Like, let’s move on. And, you know, now we know that more I gifted and things like that, but, but as a kid, I remember just like, okay, I got it. I got to move on. And the things that frustrated me at the time with, like, math.
00:05:07:05 – 00:05:33:08
Renée
Still not great math, but but I remember, my teacher being like, okay, why are you here? Like, not letting this go, you know, just like, why does doesn’t make sense. And I don’t like why why can’t we just change this fact? And I would question the whole premise of that. Yeah. And so as a student, I think I just, I was always determined and kind of just stuck to things, even if it was hard.
00:05:33:10 – 00:06:07:12
Renée
But I think sometimes it’s mental because I kept pushing and pushing, pushing. And as I got older, when I should have taken long to taking breaks and learning. So, like, be kinder to myself and have more self-care. But, that’s not the generation so often. So that wasn’t really modeled for us. But in hindsight, I realized I was like, I should not have been beating myself up as both 11 and 12 year olds about, you know, being frustrated about my writing when I didn’t get the support I needed for violating.
00:06:07:12 – 00:06:34:01
Renée
So, so yeah, and I remember I remember having spelling tests in fourth grade. This is a weird memory, what grade I was like. And I’m so frustrated and, I couldn’t spell neighbor. I keeps confusing, like, neighbor. And I’m just that new person. Something else that came out of the word a neighbor, a neigh like that. Oh, yeah, I get confusing it.
00:06:34:01 – 00:06:52:12
Renée
And my teacher was like, I don’t understand why you confusing neighbor Annette and like, hindsight, right? Like by, you know, by standards. And now that we know about know diversity with like, oh that makes sense because they up close and common and like you these and the sounds and you know five rounds of phonics this makes sense but you confuse them.
00:06:52:12 – 00:07:20:10
Renée
But like you know with the younger with them it’s like okay, but you can read these complex books and you can talk about them, but why are you having such a challenging writing? And keeping these sounds together? Especially with my family history, they just couldn’t take people teachers for, like, battle. So, that’s also a student that baffled a lot of teachers, because they were trying to make sense of why had these gaps in learning.
00:07:20:12 – 00:07:22:15
Renée
Yeah, that’s a great question.
00:07:22:17 – 00:08:00:03
Rée
Yeah. No, I think yeah, you gave me quite a bit of, an overview. So I kind of got a visual. So thank you for that. I, I, I think I read somewhere that, Yeah, that you found out that you were neurodiverse after, having a speech delay of, like, six months. And I’m kind of wondering, so when you said, like, you started reading at four, I’m just kind of wondering, like,
00:08:00:05 – 00:08:18:03
Rée
What kind of materials were you exposed to and what kind of, supports did you have, like, either at home or at school? And who was sort of like, guiding you and helping you navigate the world of reading?
00:08:18:05 – 00:08:31:10
Renée
Yeah. No, those are great. Other great questions. So, Wow. So, yeah. So, and I was somewhat of as a speech play as just like, I just didn’t speak.
00:08:31:12 – 00:08:32:17
Rée
Like I.
00:08:32:19 – 00:08:57:03
Renée
I, I, a code switched a lot. So, like, my mother would sign, and then my dad spoke Spanish, actually, so to speak a little Spanish. And then, with my, grandfather, I would actually just point because he didn’t know I couldn’t speak at the time. He didn’t know until I was three, and I would only speak to my aunt.
00:08:57:07 – 00:09:23:09
Renée
So it was more just like, you know, whoever was interacting me in the way they were interacting is the way I actually communicated. But like, I early on realized, okay, well, you know, my mom signs and everybody like, talks with my hands over, so I will do the same thing. But, you know, for a while, even, like family that, you know, we were close with, but like, oh, she doesn’t speak, so I don’t speak, you know, like, they just.
00:09:23:11 – 00:09:50:02
Renée
But like, oh, you know, she doesn’t speak. And that would be like, oh, like, let’s get her to speak. There was just like, oh, see, her mom said, so that’s why she doesn’t speak. It was more just like, I, I realized that like, okay, well, you’re not going to speak to me, so then I’m just going to I’m just going to like, interact the way you’re interacting with me, which is, a sympathetic frame to kind of already be developing early.
00:09:50:04 – 00:10:13:08
Renée
So with, with, you know, and that blends into reading. Right. So I, I so once my grandfather realized I could speak, I was speaking for sentences. He just spoke to me, and there was a day, I think he was reading a book to me because we used to be books at bedtime. And I said to him, like, oh, I think it’s a single.
00:10:13:09 – 00:10:36:09
Renée
I can’t remember the story I can remember with some book. And, he said, okay, so I’m reading the story again, and I read it. He just thought I’d memorized it. He really was like, oh, you just my wife was. I was just like, okay. Like I just was like, okay. Like, isn’t that reading? He was just like, well, let me say it’s like, let’s pick up a different book that you don’t know.
00:10:36:09 – 00:10:57:03
Renée
So well. I just went and picked up a random thought. They didn’t know what I was reading. And he goes, no, you’re actually reading. But like, oh, I know one word to fill you with your reading. And I was like, okay, but we read books all the time. And, you know, he uses from point a finger to go across the page.
00:10:57:05 – 00:11:17:11
Renée
And I said, I just, you know, figured it out. And it’s like, what happens when you when I see pictures like, you know, they like they make sense to me. And, and I was like four and a half I think like for us it’s like okay. But he’s like, I don’t know if that’s reading. And, my aunt came home, to like, visit him.
00:11:17:11 – 00:11:39:22
Renée
And my grandpa told her the same thing. And she’s like, was is beating. So, you know, like, that’s great. Okay. Like, is she understanding what she’s reading. So, you know we, we have a lot of like he would ask all these questions and I would understand what I was actually reading. But I struggle with like retelling like that to retell and sequence.
00:11:39:22 – 00:12:14:23
Renée
It was really challenging. But you asked me to direct, you know, comprehension question. I completely can answer it. And he was just like, okay, that’s strange, but maybe he’ll get better as she gets older. And then I had second grade, my teacher, Miss Luster. I’m going to use her name because I don’t know if she’s alive anymore, but I still remember her and love her and remember her, saying to me like, so you’re reading, but your fluency is a little off.
00:12:15:01 – 00:12:39:13
Renée
Yeah. She and the way she said it was like the speed at you, what you’re reading is off, right? Because she was like, I can see that when you read by yourself, you’re like, getting it done. But when you read out loud, I was stuttering and and being very like, careful how I was reading. And she said, I’m going to speak to grandfather and like, figure out how to like how we can help you with this.
00:12:39:13 – 00:12:56:16
Renée
And I was like, why is that a problem? If I can read on my own and it works, why do I have to read a lot? But because it’s it’s like a great. And she goes, well, you know, as you get older and you fight because, you know, writing was a big thing as so early on as it now, as it was now.
00:12:56:16 – 00:13:23:17
Renée
So you don’t see the correlation as much as she kind of did. And it’s like, okay, well, sure, you can speak to my grandfather. My grandfather, she’s basically told him, like, I think she has some phonics help. And I got and rolled into I had to stop dancing for a year. So I remember my back was like, okay, you got to give up your dance classes so you can go to reading classes.
00:13:23:17 – 00:13:55:08
Renée
And I was like, what? I was like, oh, my kid is like, here. And he was like, well, if you improve any meaning, you know, here’s the question. You know, like, person that was, you know, raising a depression in two different areas of them, different mindset. And so, he was like, you have to stop dancing because, back, you know, my family is really was really mindful about, a lot about the, the school things to do and, you know, back back then and do like, you know, 50,000 days after school.
00:13:55:08 – 00:14:15:16
Renée
So for me it was just dancing on Saturdays. So he was thinking I had to take a break. I think it was only like a semester, actually. But to me, it was like he was like, that’s it. A whole year. And I was like, okay, well, I don’t really want to, but he but I basically got like, bonds courses.
00:14:15:18 – 00:14:39:10
Renée
It wasn’t quite honestly him. I might have been on Gillingham for, like, a program, at a community center nearby where we lived. And I remember sitting in a class being like, okay, like, I don’t know why I’m here, but I but I took the class. It was obviously helpful because then I needed a semester, and then, my teacher wasn’t concerned.
00:14:39:12 – 00:15:09:06
Renée
But I also, didn’t realize that what she was also referring to was I had anxiety reading that. Well, like, I just didn’t like the idea of having to share that out loud. And, no one caught that again until, like, I was older, so, yeah, yeah. And yeah, being a late diagnosis of, like both ADHD intersects here has its, overcompensation of a lot of areas.
00:15:09:07 – 00:15:34:00
Renée
But yeah, reading was important for my family, right? Like, it was a cornerstone of everything. They taught me, you know, we learned cursive in third grade, but my handwriting was atrocious. And then we didn’t have oxy at the time. Yeah. So my my family got me a fountain pen as I was, so it was like, oh, you got a fountain pen?
00:15:34:02 – 00:15:54:18
Renée
And I just sat there and just, like, literally just like, you know, ink all over, go away and just write, you know, and just like, drilled that in me. And I was like, oh. And I didn’t love it, but like, I understand, right? Like, you know, it’s not like they were like, oh, let’s do some old things and make it fun.
00:15:54:18 – 00:16:12:20
Renée
And like, maybe, you know, they they just were like, this is how you know, this is how it works. And like, what is realistic too? But they definitely did the best they could. And I think reading was one of those things where they were just like, okay, well, if she’s getting behind getting it done. And but I was always a hard worker.
00:16:12:20 – 00:16:33:00
Renée
So I think that also trumped that for people like whatever struggling a lot. The after side. But then they were like, she works so hard. So like, how do we justify all the hard work she does with, you know, with the struggles that I have so. And still have that,
00:16:33:02 – 00:16:58:23
Rée
Yeah. It sounds like you got some you’ve got a lot of intervention and support and pretty early on, you know, like second grade, fourth grade. So that’s that’s really, really good. I think, I, I think I struggled with a lot of anxiety when I was younger. But I don’t think I really understood that I was neurodiverse until, like, I became pregnant.
00:16:59:00 – 00:17:29:23
Rée
And that’s when I realized I was neurodivergent. And I was like, oh, this actually makes my life make sense of it. So, yeah, I, I, I often wish that I, that somebody knew why. Yeah. Way early on. And I was struggling with those things. And like I sometimes tell myself like, oh it’s because like, I’m Asian and they didn’t really know how it presents in Asian people.
00:17:30:01 – 00:18:02:02
Rée
And I’m just wondering, like, for you, like, what were some of, like the, the people that were around you, like, were they similar to you in any kind of way? Or like, how were people able to identify these things so early on? Were they giving you a lot of attention? Were there a lot less people like, what do you think the factors were that got you the help that you needed?
00:18:02:04 – 00:18:34:21
Renée
So that’s a good question. So I so. I think it’s a combination of things. I think, being black and Puerto Rican way in a time that being mixed race wasn’t like so prevalent. And my last name was Tanya at the time. So often time was like when I panya and people would start speaking Spanish to me and I speak speaking Spanish when I was young, when I was four.
00:18:34:23 – 00:18:53:19
Renée
And so they would just assume I was like, you know, like, you know, I think less I was more. And so, just specifying to people may not know what that is, I think being my acronyms. And so I think oftentimes people make these assumptions. And then I would open my mouth and I feel like, wow, she speaks.
00:18:53:20 – 00:19:19:02
Renée
Oh wow. Which we now know is like, not so great. Besides the fact that my life is like that for moving. And so people are just stunned, to be honest. And then, because I was such a likable child, like, I was warm and caring and like, I, my emotional intelligence was always just, I’m never having this conversation with him.
00:19:19:02 – 00:19:39:21
Renée
I was like 11. And it was like, you just have this emotional intelligence, like how? And I was like, that developed for early being a child of being a quarter of just having to, to navigate that world. But I think people are fascinated and like this. No one’s gonna be like a carver just being like, oh, poor Rene kind of thing.
00:19:39:21 – 00:20:06:05
Renée
But they were just like. And people sometimes still are where they’re like, wow. Like, you’ve gone through a lot, a lot of people submission, whatever this is. Maybe as well. But but I think, because, the interventions I got, even at birth, I was, I have a crazy birth. Birth story, for myself, but, I had early interventions there.
00:20:06:05 – 00:20:44:21
Renée
Not so much speech, but just like things that they put in place, that I was kind of on people’s radar anyway, and the assumption was that were made because my mom was safe and they thought, you can handle, raising a child, you know, and so people’s assumptions, they’re like, that’s a big assumption to like, now I follow people on Instagram and you know, that people signing and this is this open world of code, a movie that warms my heart, so much because it’s a different experience than what I got as a child or what my mother had, growing up.
00:20:44:21 – 00:21:16:05
Renée
So, yeah, I think that’s what really, brought to people’s light that people knew, like my family history when I was starting in school. And, you know, I appreciate teachers taking that input so much because, you know, as students get older and so advocating for themselves, I think people forget how much, you know, early childhood, that’s why there’s such a, like, a passion about foundations is that that stuff really matters.
00:21:16:05 – 00:21:46:07
Renée
And so, like, you’re carrying it through, right? Like we’re all reading about pharma and, you know, at the time of Covid and all that stuff where our whole thing and, and so. Right. And so you are a mama. I’m a mama. I’m so like all those, like, DNA kind of fuzing together, but, but I think, you know, as, as people going through their lives and going through that education, especially to keep those things in mind, is so important.
00:21:46:09 – 00:22:06:01
Renée
And so that’s why intervention is really impactful. And I think, the reason, you know, like I said this last hour with, like, I still ruminate, like, don’t ask me what my son teaches. I’m like, I don’t know, right? Because. Right. They weren’t as impactful to me. Right. But I remember this seem to have a conversation.
00:22:06:03 – 00:22:24:22
Renée
You know, I’ve been very kind about it and didn’t make any assumptions. Ironically, she was pregnant and she did leave, because she had a baby. And I remember being sort of that be like, tell me. But, I romantically enough, I remember that. No, but I remember we just loved her. But she saw, you know, she saw us.
00:22:25:00 – 00:22:49:09
Renée
Who we were as not just students in our class. But, you know, to the families, right? Because you don’t just take a child to also taking in their family and their family history. And so I think that’s really where the intervention came. I wish that, more like public schools, charter schools, whatever school system, even homeschooling really take that in.
00:22:49:15 – 00:23:10:03
Renée
I think people make assumptions. They feel like homeschooling that you don’t have to do that stuff in. But, but you do, you know, it’s just it’s just a part of that child’s and who they are. And so it really helps to, like, be able to give the interventions that they do need. Because no one is perfect.
00:23:10:03 – 00:23:35:12
Renée
Right? I don’t think anyone’s trying to create a perfect child or a perfect student. I think some people do confuse that. The two, when it comes to education, where they’re like, you know, we’ve gotta make the student, like, have complete flaws and all these like, a pluses. And but that’s not where, you know, we’re trying to create humans who could think that and be able to, to interact with the world and really, care by themselves and us.
00:23:35:12 – 00:24:01:13
Renée
Right. Like, right. Can we agree on that? But I feel like, oftentimes the debate in education that gets lost. And so people are so into like school systems and like what they’re all supposed to do. Rightfully so. Right. Like, I understand the method of all of them. And everyone just in the end, just trying to do the same thing where they can give children the best of what they need as much as possible.
00:24:01:15 – 00:24:05:05
Renée
For the most part, and so. Yeah. So,
00:24:05:07 – 00:24:05:20
Rée
Yeah, for sure.
00:24:05:21 – 00:24:20:05
Renée
Yeah. So I would just say those things, I feel like that’s that for me. That’s what that kind of melded together for people about, impacting like interventions and how they saw those like, holes.
00:24:20:07 – 00:24:46:23
Rée
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for filling that in. I wanted to now kind of ask you a little bit about, like, your journey from compulsory education towards, like, you know, after school and, like, what did you study? And, you know, how did you get into becoming, an early intervention? No, that’s not the word.
00:24:47:01 – 00:24:47:16
Rée
Yeah, like.
00:24:47:16 – 00:24:49:10
Renée
You could say learning specialist intervention.
00:24:49:10 – 00:25:12:11
Rée
Yeah, learning for sure. Yeah. So I’m kind of curious about that journey. And also like, yeah. What kind of expectations that you had for yourself and also what kind of expectations did people have for you as you were making that transition from compulsory education to finding your career?
00:25:12:13 – 00:25:38:15
Renée
Yeah, that’s a great, great question. So, I when I left college, I, found a tutoring job, actually, I was actually getting, like, pity and, feeling a little bit injured. So dance was, like I said, my whole life at the time, and I did get injured, and my aunt actually turned to me and said, like, you’re going to kids.
00:25:38:15 – 00:26:00:11
Renée
Like I wanted to go to college. And so I was like, okay, sure. Right. Like I was I really didn’t, have a plan B, I’m quite honest. And so I really enjoyed it. But the grant ran I love money at the time. And then I got a bunch of little jobs, you know, doing all these different types of just exploring.
00:26:00:12 – 00:26:30:09
Renée
I did, like, fashion stylist. I did, you know, a bunch of, I did retail sort of jobs, teaching dance, like, different schools and things like that. Subbing and just really trying to, like, get a sense of what made sense for me. And then I found, a physician at a, and, a place that, kind of had, like, a way up things that which my classes had, early childhood classes.
00:26:30:11 – 00:26:51:17
Renée
And the director at the time, you know, saw me interacting with the little ones and said to me like, oh, have you thought about teaching? And I said, yeah, like, but like, you know, like, I don’t know, maybe I’ll just be admitted to stay at, and then she decided to take over one of the classes, the physical classes, and said, can you co-teach with me?
00:26:51:17 – 00:27:38:18
Renée
And then she kind of just dropped out. And I was like, oh, but if there’s only 4 or 5 children in my class, I could, like, handle that. And there’s one particular child who was struggling. The child was highly, highly inquisitive and had these, like, really like, I just remember if just, like, take apart these, these ideas that just in, like, okay, some beating, little blue and little yellow to, you know, that book and, beautiful little yellow and they go, they’re best friends and they play together and then they, come together like, literally comes out with, like, yellow and blue, like, mixing together.
00:27:38:23 – 00:27:59:21
Renée
And they were a queen. And a parent said, we can’t find them. And they’re like, oh, no. And then they start crying. So it’s a, it has like a homeless, intelligence. So circling, circling and they become their own separate thing again and they return back. So it’s also about separation. It’s all these different things. And this one book right next to Color of Separation, emotional intelligence.
00:27:59:21 – 00:28:31:14
Renée
By this I was able to like, hit it. And I was like, what is happening? But, on the other side, the child really couldn’t interact when it was black time. Really couldn’t, hold scissors and, like, without feeling like they were just lopsided, like, I can’t explain it. So they were just literally just using one side sided a potty, and I was like, let me across the other side to get to the paper.
00:28:31:16 – 00:29:04:10
Renée
And I was the I was the person to notice it. And so, I brought it up to the director, who at the time, brought it up to the parents on the station and mother of like, several years later, thanked me for, like, recognizing all that and for, like, studying the child’s journey from, like, where they are to where they went to, like, public school, for schooling and, I don’t know, I’m saying public school, but I have a public school system, that school in general, too, so.
00:29:04:10 – 00:29:24:13
Renée
But he knows, so. Yeah. And so, I think that really stuck with me. And so, she the one I was like, well, you may want to think about the intervention. And I was like, oh, that’s that. And so she’s like, sit. I sat in one of the classrooms and she’s like, I’m sir, not, there was a C.
00:29:24:13 – 00:29:45:15
Renée
It’s a special education Italian teacher that was working on in the classrooms. And she had she actually allowed me to sit in the classroom. And so that person, not the head teacher, and she said, like, notice what she does and, like, notice why, like, oh, yeah, just to observe. And so I took a lot of, I think I still have them.
00:29:45:17 – 00:30:03:06
Renée
I was like, oh, this is interesting work. So you’re not, you’re, you’re in the classroom, but you’re not working with everyone. They are working with everyone because you want to integrate that child. But then you’re not, like, always moving pieces. And and my brain clicked like my brain was like, what are like things that there’s many things happening.
00:30:03:06 – 00:30:28:09
Renée
Right? Like at the time I did, I never had ADHD and got these cycles. So like I was like, what? I like all these moving pieces. And then one fit the puzzles and then you get to fill in the gaps and then you go to And then you get to like analyzer because I’m such a dork. I would then go home and research all that, and I would literally I would just go home and research was like, just like, tell us what that was like.
00:30:28:09 – 00:30:49:08
Renée
Why are they only using one side of the body? Like, you know, being inquisitive person that I was a child being like, oh, I can really just, you know, literally just go deep dive into a rabbit hole. And nobody would think I’m weird because I would just start it’s work classes. It’s it’s work. Right? Like no one’s going to be like, so now I want to ask 50 questions to get to this one point.
00:30:49:08 – 00:31:05:04
Renée
I’m like, but I wanted to I know, kind of all know knows why I could be watching PBS kids. So I’m like, oh, my keeps going. And then I’m like, oh, wait. And then and then so then I listened and clicked to me and I was like, this is what I want to do. So I’m back to got my masters in that, and I really enjoyed it.
00:31:05:04 – 00:31:43:15
Renée
So, I’m getting my now my ongoing, certification. So we’re going on a vacation. This is what slowed me down at the scrappy. But that’s okay. But. Yeah, but but, but like, that passion is just like the pieces clicking in my hair. I’m going. Well, well, this makes sense for my brain. I think oftentimes people, see all these careers and they think that they have to pick it up right then, say not just waiting and hard and like, but I was allowed the space to be, like, be messy and just and kind of just feel like, I don’t know, but like, I kind of allowed myself to be
00:31:43:15 – 00:32:08:16
Renée
like, I don’t know, even I, I was frustrated, but, you know, work that for you. For, like, friends and therapy. I think those two things are really necessary. And had other people see what? You know, what I couldn’t see at the time? It’s just really helpful that, like, little, like, mentorship kind of thing, felt like hitting you over the head, right?
00:32:08:16 – 00:32:28:18
Renée
Because sometimes you’re like, oh, I don’t want to do that because you said so, right. But yeah, I think, I tell people sometimes I fall into it, but I think also, like it says, also made sense of the background that I had. And with the brain that I had that I was like, oh, this all makes sense now.
00:32:28:20 – 00:32:29:06
Rée
Right?
00:32:29:06 – 00:32:31:04
Renée
And so, like, together.
00:32:31:06 – 00:32:40:00
Rée
Yeah. And also like your childhood of, like having those interventions there for you. Right. It just feels.
00:32:40:01 – 00:32:49:01
Renée
Very it’s just like, yes, it was, it was very full circle. And. Yeah. And so that’s maybe I should I, I don’t know if that’s better. Right.
00:32:49:03 – 00:32:55:01
Rée
Yeah. No, that sounds amazing. I mean, I know that you’re, you created a planner, right?
00:32:55:01 – 00:32:56:08
Renée
I did, yeah.
00:32:56:10 – 00:32:58:06
Rée
If you want to talk about that.
00:32:58:08 – 00:33:21:06
Renée
Yeah. So I created a planner basically, because that’s something I’ll save those in, and, middle school, I remember getting, like, I don’t know if they still do this in middle schools, but I remember literally my middle school coming up, a full planner, and we all sat in on sweating, and they, they taught us to use at the door painting to remember.
00:33:21:08 – 00:33:41:20
Renée
Not at all. And it was and and I remember being like, this is cool. Like you get to actually you write down everything. You have to keep that in your brain like it’s also in, like, like, like executive function. Right? You know, sort of like a love it or something. And I was just like, I was like, oh.
00:33:42:01 – 00:34:01:07
Renée
So then that, like, I don’t want to remember that. I want to I can just, I want to like, I was like, all of this love. So, I kind of so, like, makes sense in my work life where I kind of. I made up a planner for teachers that are interventionist, a homeschool parent, maybe, children who have IEPs.
00:34:01:09 – 00:34:22:02
Renée
So you were dealing with case loads and things like that, and you have a lot of moving parts, which is like, as you can tell, it’s my jam. And to organize it all on paper and see it and make it make sense for you both, your lesson planning, you’re you can get me into research diving and we just had like, one thing that you might be curious about.
00:34:22:04 – 00:34:40:17
Renée
I have a teacher friend who tends to like, Abby and I love this because she inspired me to be like, okay, it’s okay to just, like, focus on one subject for the year. So as you focus on one thing, she’s curious for the year about, one year it’s about like autism. And so she just like books.
00:34:40:19 – 00:35:04:16
Renée
And then she would just write notes. And that kind of inspired this next page. There’s a there’s a page of the usual, like, scheduling. It’s got a lot of moving parts of your classroom where we have providers coming in and pushing out, and you’re like, what? I can’t remember when, what, how what’s happening? Even at home, when, people are doing I have a lot of moving parts or people coming in the like ones that were caught with us.
00:35:04:16 – 00:35:23:13
Renée
And the follow up on this thing, you know, when do I talk about this? Sometimes people question, like, one day they have the parents, they may need to have something. And so I have something around that. Yeah. But it’s basically like a planner to kind of just get it all out there. Does not have to be perfect.
00:35:23:15 – 00:35:41:06
Renée
Perfection, progress over perfection. And so really, that’s what this planner is. And so, people, it’s the first draft of the planner, and I hope to update it more and more as I get feedback from people. I’ve gotten some feedback from people just when like, you know, it’s just like, I’m curious, can you just look at it?
00:35:41:08 – 00:36:06:21
Renée
I have feedback on data like collecting data on how to make sense of that, that information, because there are so many different assessments out there and definitions that collect data. So I got some feedback on that. But yeah, it’s a really an innovative planner. I feel like, because it’s made for interventionists and teachers who have a lot of moving parts and homeschoolers who have a lot of parts of kids like these.
00:36:06:23 – 00:36:13:23
Renée
And yeah, so it was actually fun. Correct. Because I was like, oh, what do I want you to, get to geek out a little bit? So yeah.
00:36:14:00 – 00:36:32:17
Rée
Yeah, I think those are the best products. It’s like when you create something that you would need or something that you would personally use. So yeah, congratulations. A thank you. Yeah. I’ve been working on several planners just because I well, first of all, I love planners.
00:36:32:19 – 00:36:33:17
Renée
They’re great.
00:36:33:19 – 00:37:01:17
Rée
They really are, because I think you were talking about, like, how, you know, you don’t have to keep all that information in your brain. You can just record it. And something that I didn’t realize was, I have very poor executive function. So, I can’t keep everything in my brain. There’s just too much going on. And so when I discovered planners, I like, my life changed.
00:37:01:19 – 00:37:25:15
Rée
It became so much easier to live. And so, yeah, I, I definitely highly recommend everybody find a planner that works for them. And I always feel like, you know, teachers have the best planners. I was an educator for about 15 years. I never really found the one that would work. Okay, so I would have to, like, makeshift my own.
00:37:25:15 – 00:37:28:22
Rée
So, yeah. Congratulations on creating.
00:37:29:00 – 00:37:29:05
Renée
You.
00:37:29:09 – 00:38:12:23
Rée
Something. Yeah. So, yeah, I’m looking forward to you sharing more about it and or sharing it in the future. I kind of want to ask you, like, this last segment of our conversation about, you know, looking at your full circle journey, and all of the supports that you did have and all of the, you know, educational traumas that you might have incurred, and actually working with students and being an interventionist and seeing, like, how they work in the system and what are some things in the system that, you know, can be preventing them, from succeeding or being very successful?
00:38:12:23 – 00:38:32:08
Rée
I’m kind of wondering, like, what are some things that you think, mass schooling in general needs to like overhaul or change? Yeah. What are some improvements that you think could be made to like the system as a whole?
00:38:32:10 – 00:38:33:07
Renée
Oh my goodness.
00:38:33:11 – 00:38:35:01
Rée
I know it’s a big question.
00:38:35:03 – 00:39:03:21
Renée
It’s a stupid question, but, necessary. So I think, my first thing is that, like IEPs, intervention or not, dirty words, but like I think this like segmentation of like the, presenting to to families that like, if your child does need help, it means something about that child. That and I know it could be a cultural thing.
00:39:03:21 – 00:39:23:00
Renée
I know it can be. Right. Like when you’re talking as a, you know, a child who’s Asian, I’m talking, you know, black. And for we can like, culturally, right? Like, I understand that. Right. Like, there’s just things that we were we were taught that we have. You know, for me, it was like black excellence, like, no, you just for civil rights.
00:39:23:00 – 00:39:54:10
Renée
So, but I think that stuff can’t be ignored, right? I think we’re at this point where we can’t ignore those. We should be embedding the culture, differences within with them both children that need intervention work. But also, like demystifying it for, for our families. Right. And so if you and really trying to explain to parents this is how we see your child and it’s not a reflection on how you’re raising them.
00:39:54:10 – 00:40:18:10
Renée
Right. It’s not a reflection on like the culture. Right. Because you can be doing public school. You can do homeschool, right? Your child is your child. Right? And so no matter what setting they’re they’re and they’re not going to be, shipped who they are just because I mean, they’re going to be had different freedoms and different settings and different supports.
00:40:18:10 – 00:40:55:22
Renée
Yes. But are they going to change the the DNA of who they are? No. So just accepting, who they are and, and allowing, more, more space for inclusive, settings as well as like self-contained and not be so, narrow into thinking, well, if my child’s is in that setting and they need extra support, then I feel that the child needs to go to ICC classroom, right?
00:40:55:22 – 00:41:23:03
Renée
Or if my child is in general setting and, they, they need counseling, right. What’s right is, is necessary for like A504. Right. So, you know, I think if anything, the pandemic has taught us is that it’s okay that, we need help for both ourselves and, and know, like, students are chosen out there and to give them the help they need.
00:41:23:03 – 00:41:48:07
Renée
I mean, everyone’s concerned about the pandemic slide and all those things, but I think this is the time that we can make those shifts and those changes and really integrate those changes and not be so scared. I, I’ve sometimes had, when I, when I do the little, little ones, for me as, as young as, like three, I get a lot of times like, I don’t want my child to have a label.
00:41:48:09 – 00:42:16:18
Renée
Right. They’re concerned about the label on the child’s IEP, and, I have them start with, wow, that’s that’s preschool or disability, right? There’s typically unless it’s a medical condition. Right. Good. Doesn’t have an actual, like diagnosis unless a doctor is given one. So I start with that. I also, share with them like there’s power and knowing the ins and outs of what’s happening, because then you can get educated on them.
00:42:16:19 – 00:42:46:01
Renée
And I know it’s frightening. And sometimes it’s just like planting that seed and, starting that conversation. And it’s hard, but I think, if we, stop being so scared of having these conversations that they actually become more normal. And so, so then when, you know, I’ve been, so I’m using my child’s example. I’ve been telling her since she was young that she thinks differently than I like, you know, that’s okay.
00:42:46:01 – 00:43:07:19
Renée
And, like, this is, you know, this is how we this is how you kind of support yourself and do supports. And, so actually asked me to do more SPL work at home, and that’s fine. Like, I need to get on that. But, you know, but the fact that she’s, you know, she’s a young child that can recognize what she needs, advocate for herself to me is the goal, right?
00:43:07:19 – 00:43:32:04
Renée
Is that, if you don’t, you don’t want children forever. You can’t just sit there and be, like, frustrated. Right. And see, that’s how they’ve become unkind to themselves and to others and not seen. And that’s all like we want to be seen and they want to be seen. And so the power and if you want to dismantle the system assisting children as they who are who they are.
00:43:32:06 – 00:44:01:13
Renée
Yes, it’s frustrating, but testing, right? Psych testing. Yes. It’s frustrated about, excuse me, all the like systematic like funding and there’s not enough funding there. And they want to move funding out of one system to another system and and, and like, dismantling of like what’s out there. But I think if, if really if we want to have intervention make sense.
00:44:01:15 – 00:44:26:09
Renée
We actually need to actually integrate it more and have more of it and not less of it. So I can actually talk about this metric, but, like, to, to think that like, oh, we just take away these supports, just because, like, I’m afraid of this label. I’m afraid of what, what will happen next, actually, disempowers, your child.
00:44:26:10 – 00:44:57:03
Renée
Because then they don’t get what they, what they actually need. And it’s a struggle for a couple of months or maybe even a year, because it takes time where I’m at, it takes time to go through the process. And so you can’t once you kind of like, lose that, it’s hard to get it back. And to have these real conversations about what support looks like both not only at school but at home, too, because it’s, it’s challenging, right, to to to support a child that needs, the extra support.
00:44:57:03 – 00:45:20:01
Renée
And I think people always just think, oh, it’s just, you know, kids on the spectrum and kids like us at, like a very visible. Right. But I love that poster. You know, that poster that says, like, disability and has all the people, dad types of disability and then that doesn’t just look like someone in, like a, you know, a wheelchair or what have you.
00:45:20:03 – 00:45:40:21
Renée
Like, I thought that poster, because it’s full, like, you make all these assumptions, like a lot of people forget that gifted children are technically that are neurodiverse. So, to just assume that it looks like this one little thing in a box and you’re like, you know, yeah. And oftentimes as a child, I got like, oh, yeah, something’s weird.
00:45:40:21 – 00:46:05:07
Renée
Oh, right. But like I was that oh, that’s I forgot like, hey, you know, I did I read that like I had like a, that’s a typical child until like, you know, something persuaded me like, right. And so I think it’s, it, it’s really, necessary that we look at our systems to really say, okay, well, how do we support this child?
00:46:05:07 – 00:46:18:23
Renée
And if this system doesn’t work, like if you’re in this setting that doesn’t work, how do we help you get what you need out without losing who you are? So yeah. And that is.
00:46:18:23 – 00:46:52:00
Rée
So, so important. I think you really nailed it on the head. And it kind of brings up for me this idea of, like, shifting education from, like, you know, top down and thinking. And for me, if it is really tailored to the child and, and we’re helping them become self-reliant and become independent. And so they’re always asking for what they need as they gain power.
00:46:52:01 – 00:47:44:20
Rée
And I know that, so I want to be mindful of your time. And so my last question really is about play. I know that that’s like a really big, centerpiece for your teaching philosophy and, and how you work with littles. So I was wondering if you could share a little bit about, you know, how you think play is sort of like the antidote to, like, unlearning a lot of the harmful ways that, you know, our previous paradigm of education, has sort of impacted, you know, teaching and how play can be like the antidote and, yeah, like, your, your kind of advice towards people who are,
00:47:44:22 – 00:47:53:06
Rée
changing the education system or unschooling or homeschooling or whatever it is. If you can share a little bit about that.
00:47:53:08 – 00:48:20:07
Renée
Yeah. So for me, plays like connection. Right. And so I think oftentimes, and I know I had this too, where like, you were like, oh, I have to play with my kids. So I want to have kids like the dolls advocate the Play-Doh. I have to write. But I, if I come across as a parent that has, like, now a slightly older child, that I, you know, is forever my.
00:48:20:07 – 00:48:42:09
Renée
But also I speak about it all the time like little by little, you’re not not going anywhere. And it’s true because in a lot of ways it. Sure. Right. Like, even as they get older, they still need to connect with you. And so the play that the tools may change by like you might have gone from like the babies and the bubbles and like all those like obvious thing.
00:48:42:15 – 00:49:03:03
Renée
Right. That you’re naming the tool and you’re like, oh, this is why I’m doing this. Something to write to, like, oh, I’m coloring and I want to sit there and label all the things I’m coloring, and I want to talk to. It’s just the moves and and like, but I think at the heart of it is relationships right in the heart of the connection.
00:49:03:05 – 00:49:25:09
Renée
And so you do want to spend I try my best to spend like three minutes, connecting with each of my children, like whatever their playing modality is. So like my littles going into doctors right now and she’s like, yeah, she’s really like, doctor, you’re like, I want to go check you out and like, I’ll have her check me out.
00:49:25:09 – 00:49:46:07
Renée
But meantime, also trying to get the temperature. Know how was the day. It was an emotional intelligence and how bad those things and learning does that I feel. And, because she is younger, you know, we forgot to sign some of those because this is like a child, but, but, you know, we try to get the things that she needs because that’s what she needs right now.
00:49:46:07 – 00:49:58:05
Renée
What’s the name of those feelings? And, meantime, my, but my also try to, like, get her to, process her feelings that have happened throughout the day. Right. So I’m.
00:49:58:05 – 00:49:58:17
Rée
Working on.
00:49:58:17 – 00:50:24:23
Renée
That. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, we can talk about it since marriage is not a good. So, because they have different needs and and and doesn’t. And you think they’re different in terms of just like, oh, because you’re not sitting here naming all the feelings that you’re processing feelings. Guess what else is that same thing, except now you’re just approaching it in a way that is a different entry point for them.
00:50:24:23 – 00:50:44:18
Renée
So that entry points like, oh, let’s colors together, let’s, let’s sit there and make the come up together. Let’s play this like Uno game and talk about how can we talk about your day. Oh, that friend said something unkind. What was your reaction might like is still having the same movement. The little ones you like. Oh, you. Your friend was pushed too.
00:50:44:23 – 00:51:00:22
Renée
Oh, that made you feel sad, right? When you cried. And that felt like the little, little, little ones, right? But my oldest child was like, that was. That’s a new word to say. Like, how would you set up what would might affect you, right? Or that made you feel really anxious when they talked, said a comment about my hair.
00:51:00:22 – 00:51:23:19
Renée
Right. It doesn’t. It seems like it changes and is completely different length, but it’s at the core of it. It’s flow, right? It’s you connecting with them and helping them still make sense of the world, makes sense of themselves. And really then, you guiding them to do those processes. And so that’s why I like guiding play because it helps you like, find the right, not like holes in it.
00:51:23:19 – 00:51:28:08
Renée
And and really like bridge all those points together for that.
00:51:28:10 – 00:51:34:13
Rée
Yeah. So initially I thought you meant connection like between like people like, you know, social.
00:51:34:14 – 00:51:36:02
Renée
That’s it. Yeah. But there’s.
00:51:36:02 – 00:51:36:19
Rée
An online.
00:51:36:22 – 00:51:37:23
Renée
Sons.
00:51:38:01 – 00:51:47:14
Rée
But then yeah, I realized you also mean like the integration, right. That you’re actually helping them connect in their brain.
00:51:47:18 – 00:51:48:00
Renée
Yeah.
00:51:48:00 – 00:52:24:07
Rée
And associate like not just things that they know but what they’re actually experiencing. So. Yeah that’s really great. Thank you so much for sharing that. You know yeah. And so I guess to end our conversation do you have any like words of wisdom for homeschoolers and schoolers, traditional schoolers, parents, students. As we end our conversation, do you have any any words of wisdom as we head into the future?
00:52:24:09 – 00:52:52:09
Renée
I think at the heart of it. Right. We’re all doing the best that we can. And to not be afraid of the questions that we have. And to keep, keep at it and keep asking those questions of yourself. And you like your students and love your children, that the and to also be kind and to to find ways to process that makes sense for you.
00:52:52:11 – 00:53:16:12
Renée
I’ve been really into, like, f t lately. Most of freedom technique. What you do like tapping on a body and really, like connecting, processing negative emotions, I think. Don’t run away from things that scare you. Run towards them. So. Yeah. So that would be, my words of advice.
00:53:16:14 – 00:53:25:12
Rée
Thank you so much for listening. If any part of this episode resonated with you, please connect with us on social media at the links in the show notes. Until next time.
About Renée
Renee Pena Lopez is a passionate Learning Specialist and a proud native New Yorker. She is a licensed special education educator teacher who has a deep passion for children and their quirks. Renee pulls from her creative background in dance and her vast experience in an array of classrooms from museum education to progressive to play-based models. She truly believes that #playmatters in the lives of Littles and for it to matter it must be purposeful and work for the learner that it serves which is why she teaches guided play. Its her mission that learning be impactful for neurodiverse learners that create strong foundations that moves them to be their best selves.
You can find out more information about Renee on her website at www.themagicoflittles.com.